MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 764 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Quote ID'd by David Snyder 2) Re: Braid: Conditional love/MOC/Norse Mythoi/stuff by Becky Anne Christensen 3) Re: Abrev. List by Becky Anne Christensen 4) Re: Subject or not (was brading or not) by Becky Anne Christensen 5) Re: turtles/pronunciation/1,000+!/my hair by Becky Anne Christensen 6) Braid: Rolan's origin/'Lendel/Striptease/Evil by Le destin des fees 7) Braid: OK/languages/geldings/Warrl/str8 vs. gay/immolation by Le destin des fees 8) Re: Braid:Ware-nominee\Kris by poisoniv-+AT+-sprynet.com 9) Re: Sex scenes, Crusades by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 10) Birdcage by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 11) Van & 'Lendel/Slaughter/Luck by Delia 12) Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long) by skarzin-+AT+-soonet.ca (Tony and Michele) 13) Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long) by Sarah Worley 14) Re: Braid:Ware-nominee\Kris by philip dancause 15) Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long) by Becky Anne Christensen 16) Van/Cen&Sex/Van&Sex/Evil/Queens by "Hth." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:06:21 -1000 From: David Snyder To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Quote ID'd Message-ID: <199608101206.CAA05467-+AT+-brickell.bridge.net> At 10:35 PM 8/9/96 +0100, you wrote: >That quote comes from Pamela Dean's Tam Lin - Molly is complaining about >her period, and says, "Stupid body - there's no need for all these >histrionics." I think this is in the scene where they are debating the >relative merits of bunk beds? >God, it frightens me that I actually *know* this! ********************** Correct, absolutely correct!! I love that book, I read it way to often!! ******** >Lady Thessaly, I hope you feel better soon! Thanks milady, my sweetie did acupressure on me today, what blockages, we think I go hit in the wrong place during karate and that's what caused it!! But i'm slightly better every day! ************** >Lady Sophia, Goddess of Song and Music (or Music and Song) ********************** Hey, 'Talyah, go look for Ranma if you like basically sexless Japanime!!! Fun stuff, and your video store was maybe gonna order some anime, there've been so many requests for it. (for those listmembers who didn't know, 'Talyah and I are live in the same (small) city, and haven't yet face to face, mostly 'cuz I'm either lazy or busy!) Lady Thessaly "It's not enough to count the stars, you have to Thesseldown know them by Name." Goddess of Nomenclature Meg: A Wind in the Door MKGC, Lady In Green ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:47:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: Conditional love/MOC/Norse Mythoi/stuff Message-ID: Becky wrote: > >>> You think you're going against the current, hold onto your life vests!!! > I never really liked Van all that much (I have now donned my asbestos > suit and I am hiding in a corner with my shield ready to fend off the > flying missles and coconuts sure to be heading my way right now)<<< > Then Cennyd replied: > Becky Anne, may I offer the refuge of my Halls? Guaranteed to be coconut > proof. =) I didn't particularly care for Van either. He was awful whiny > and not at all proactive, considering what kind of a character he was > supposed to be. I am mortally sure that I would smacked him on several > occasions (figuratively, at least, possibly physically). > Yes, and I gladly accept :) He seems like a real good typical hero in the textbooks. Kinda makes you wonder what was really going on with all the heroes we have today. Wouldn't it be a shame to some poor young soul in Velgarth who though that Van was perfect, to actually meet him once? Talk about disillusionment (at least, I think that's a word). He seems like he would get along with Oscar the Grouch ;) Although the rest of Misty's characters seem much more friendly and likeable. I wonder why the Great Hero (tm) got such an unfriendly disposition? May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path, *********************************************************************** * Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals * *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles * * Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at: * * http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:53:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Abrev. List Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg wrote: > I know this is long, but I just wanna check if I missed out any abrevs. > AAMOF As a matter of fact > AFAIK as far as I know and it goes on and on..... I really hope we're not supposed to learn all of this are we? I know about a handful of those, and the rest I've never heard of. I certainly hope there isn't going to be a quiz later. I'll flunk it! Advice for Newbies: Don't worry too much about the abbreviations. Most of the time you can figure out what they are, and if not, you can tell what the person means without it. After a few months you'll automatically pick up the frequently used ones. (I can just imagine some person getting this list, and freaking out :) he-hee) I think we should make an acronym for everything, then talk in acronyms, and really confuse people! AFAIK WEG TREIT. DYTS? TSBAOMIHS. B! May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path, *********************************************************************** * Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals * *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles * * Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at: * * http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 23:56:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Subject or not (was brading or not) Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg wrote: > But to all out there, please make sure that your > subject matches your body text, it is fustrating to know that the mail is > totally unrelated to a subject. Some people don't read all their mail, they > follow a thread by looking at the SUBJECT! > Okay, I confess, I usually forget about the subject headers! Sorry! I'm getting better. Just another hint, if you do remember to change the subject (I know it's hard to remember, but try to) put what the subject was before you changed it. That just makes it easier to track what is really going on. Okay, Bye! May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path, *********************************************************************** * Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals * *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles * * Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at: * * http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:08:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: turtles/pronunciation/1,000+!/my hair Message-ID: Thessaly wrote: > ********** > I always pronounced Cymry as KIM-ree. I always said SY-mrey. Vanyel, I say that VAN (as in the motor van) yel (as in I like to yell). Talia, Tally (as in tally those numbers) uh (as in uh, I hate brussel sprouts) Selenay, SELL-uh-knee (can you sell a knee for $5.95?) Cennyd, I always had though your name was with a C that sounded like an S, but I'm glad I now know the right way to say it. I think that's it..... > ************** > Becky O My Goddess, could Audrey the wax turtle deal with Little Debbie > Swiss Cake Rolls, which I love? Or does it have to be Ding-dongs, which I > don't? I don't mind sharing, but I can't afford to keep her in junk food, > and supply mine. > Okay, I think Swiss Cake Rolls are close enough to Ding-dongs for them to be acceptable. But you'll have to ask Audrey. :) ***************** Guess what guess what?!? the mailing list homepage hit over a thousand today! Yippee!!!!! ***************** Guess what guess what!?! I chopped nine inches of my hair off and died it chestnut brown. I can't believe I did that. But it's neat. Kinda liberating. I think I can jump higher. :) :) ***************** I braided sorta. Aren't you proud of me? May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path, *********************************************************************** * Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals * *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles * * Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at: * * http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:37:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Le destin des fees To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Braid: Rolan's origin/'Lendel/Striptease/Evil Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Lynne wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Julian May clarification and other stuff >>>RE: Monarch's Own. During the LHM, wasn't Taver the Monarch's Own Companion? I seem to remember that was Shavri's Companion's name. So, where did Rolan come from?<<< The Grove. Like all the others. Taver wasn't even the first. Steladar was the first MOC. -----EOM On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Barbara wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Braid: Images, naughty frase, filksong [snippage of my striptease] >>>SLURP! Cenyydd, you are WICKED! I'm stuck in this 10x10 windowless collarbutton box with THAT image doing ~wonderful~ things to my hormone levels! =P``` I think I just qualified to join the LOPW...<<< Just doing my best to delight and entertain my fans. =) You can always count on me to do something like this. =) Actually, I am much better at dancing when I have an audience to focus on. I love to get wild. Actually, I just got back from a dance club and my friend Nancy and I were playing with people's minds. We were dancing together and were grinding all over each other and then splitting up to focus on the people watching and show off (we cleared the floor ). -----EOM On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Dass wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Re: Tylendel vs. Vanyel and suicide >>> Can you imagine having someone who has shared your thoughts, your emotions, your love, your pain, everything you've done, thought or felt for gods only know how many years<<< Can't have been that long. 3 years at the most. Remember 'Lendel was about 16 and 14 is the average age for Choosing. -----EOM On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Barbara wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Don't Shoot!!! >>>I'm straight, but kinky -- oh, wait, we're not supposed to be talking about the sheep, right?<<< Oooo! I *like* you! =) Welcome to the list, Barbara. I am so pleased to meet you, after all the terrible things that Heather has been saying to me. Maybe we could ditch her, run away together, and go cruising for cute men? Or you can cruise for sheep and I can cruise for men? Let's go to NZ! There will be plenty for both of us. BTW, Heather, this is the inevitable result of trying to keep me from performing for my fans! Much as I love you, I cannot possibly abandon my beloved LotPW to the drear life of unrequited lust! Maybe I can't return their lust, but I certainly owe them my undying love, if for no other reason than that they have had the impeccably good taste to select moi as an object of desire. *Cennydd reappears from the veil of mists that he had previously used as a shield from prying eyes. He is clad, simply, in a floor length cape of shifting green through which transitory moments of tranlucency give glimpses of his tightly muscular body. As the strains of Kronos Quartet's Eskalay begin to filter through the surrounding environment, Cennydd's muscles tense, sending his body into a highly complex series of erotically charged twists and grinds. As his hands rise to shape the air into fleeting suggestions of caresses, his cloak swirls in to clasp him tightly in a form-fitting sheath before flaring out to dissolve into a haze of shifting verdant mists. As the rhythmic shifting of his torso and hips blend with the music to create a powerfully intense mood of sensuality, Cennydd is revealed before the LotPW in the minimal jeweled dancing leathers of a trained Tamrin Dancer, moving through the endless dance which is the illusion of creation and destruction, given form by art* Hope that keeps my fans happy for a while. =) -----EOM On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, Barbara wrote: BOM>>>Subject: The nature of evil >>>When dealing with children, one of the first things they teach you is to separate the act from the child. Tell them that stealing the cookie was bad, not that _they_ were bad. One must learn to separate the acts from the people who commit them.<<< This is fallacious reasoning. A person who does something that is truly evil is not disculpated by reason of being "seperate" from the act. They weren't seperate from the act; they were an intrinsic part of the event structure of the act. A person who does an evil thing is evil, for that moment at least. Now that may not be all that they are, and it certainly is not necessarily invariable over time. Nevertheless, I would argue that if someone does an evil action, they are evil at that time. Insanity is not an excuse. It is a reason. -----EOM May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:39:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Le destin des fees To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Braid: OK/languages/geldings/Warrl/str8 vs. gay/immolation Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Kimberly wrote: BOM>>>Subject: mail deleted/ObMisty >>>Oklahoma out there... you don't really mash your potato salads, do you? *gryn* (p 77, Jinx High, paperback)<<< No-one that I know does. But I don't know everyone in Oklahoma. On the other hand, they *do* seem to put more mustard (French's flourescent-yellow type!) in their Potato salads than anyone really needs. -----EOM On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, the Shadow-Lover wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Re: Languages in JHS >>> I go to a vocational school, so I had to take two years + of a foreign laguage... I've taken Latin and Spanish, and I've also managed to memorize all the Tale'edras and Shin'a'in as well as Westron Runic, Ogham, and some Old Norse... Call it a hobby... Nice to be fluent in them tho!<<< When you say that you are fluent, what do you mean? Ogham isn't a language, and neither is Western Runic. Old Norse is extinct. I don't even know whether there is much of a corpus for it. As for Shin'a'in and Tayledras, these are not languages. They are phrase lists without any grammar. I had to give up on my Tayledras project. There just isn't any systematicity to the isolated words. A linguistic analysis doesn't really get anywhere. This is not a flame, but I just didn't want you to feel like I was neglecting you. After all, our rivalry *is* something of a list tradition. Not unlike Heather and my up and down relationship (I think we have gone from civilized blood-letting to a wedding! Who knows where it will stop! ). BTW, Welcome back! =) -----EOM On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, SummerSong wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Braid: Oathbreakers/Van and Lendel/Gala/Favorite Scenes, etc. >>>"Shin'a'in gelding." IIRC, Shin'a'in colts were rare, they were never gelded, and they never left the plains. Is that a glitch in the book or did I miss something?<<< It isn't a glitch. Remember that the Shin'a'in breed and raise all sorts of horses for sale to outlanders. That is the purpose of Kata'shin'a'in. Tarma arranged for Idra's company, and later Kero's, to get first choice at the sale stock from Tale'sedrin. The gelding was prob one of these horses. -----EOM On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Antalyah wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Re: The Lord of Death returns! YAY!/Tarma and Warrl >>>Anyway--what happened to Warrl? Wouldn't he be with her? He's only mentioned in OBound, OBreakers, and from Rris (*grin*) "My famous cousin Warrl". I would think he would have followed Tarma into death with their bond and all. What do you guys think?<<< Well, remember that his bond with Tarma was not unusually strong. He was supposed to be Keth's familiar, but prefered Tarma's mind so he attached himself to her. But he was never a "Companion" type of figure. More like a companion-at-arms. I don't even think that he actually was "bound" to Tarma, in the sense of a supernatural bond. They were just kindred spirits who were close friends and companions for many years. Still, who knows what the Star-Eyed might do if he was willing to continue the association past death? -----EOM On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Diana wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Re: my VETO post... >>>You notice that it's mostly men that are homophobic.<<< During the whole sturm und drang about gays in the military, my mom wrote a letter to the editor of the Tulsa paper where she pointed out that one of the reasons gays make str8 men so nervous might be that it is the only chance that most str8 men will ever have to imagine themselves in the position of a female victim of sexual harassment (she wasn't suggesting that gays sexually harass, btw). What she meant was that most str8 men wouldn't ever be able to think of a sexual advance from a woman as a threatening, unwelcome form of harassment. However, when they are faced with a gay man, they realize that if he chose to harass the str8 guy, the gay man might actually be a threat that they would have to deal with (and might not be able to). -----EOM On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, SummerSong wrote: BOM>>>Subject: Braid: Suicide/Florian/Too much mail/sexscenes/The Birdcage >>>Buddhist monks didn't set themselves on fire -- sometimes they fasted inside a pit until they died, then they were taken out by their fellow monks and put on display for worship.<<< Actually, Buddhist monks did set themselves on fire. Auto-immolation was an Indian protest/suicide, however, not a Japanese one. But do remember that there are Buddhist outside of Japan. =) >>>I SHOULD KNOW BECAUSE I'M JAPANESE!!!<<< Details, details! *grin* I happen to know that that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Most of the my Japanese friends are frightfully ignorant about their own culture's history. I dated a Japanese guy who actually didn't know what the Tokugawa was! >>>Okay, on the homosexual thread -- Have any of you seen "The Birdcage"? It's a great movie.<<< The original French movie was much better, though. >>>I don't know how accurate it is, or how (un)stereotypically these gay men are portrayed<<< I found it almost offensively stereotypical. Even *I* am not that much of a flaming queen, and I am the worst offender (along those lines) of my entire social circle. I can honestly say that I don't know one gay man who fits the characterizations in the movie. BTW, I am not the only one to be offended by the movie. My (str8) professor was so offended by the shallowness and lack of reality that he and his wife left before the movie ended. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:12:49 -0700 From: poisoniv-+AT+-sprynet.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid:Ware-nominee\Kris Message-ID: <199608101212.FAA06436-+AT+-m4.sprynet.com> 'Talyah said after me: %%>Hmmm. But he may be reborn again!! Probably as a herald too, since he was %%>still %%>"in the good" when he died... He'd still be straight... Perfect!!! %%Well, it'd be nice to see Kris even come back as a Companion (if he never %%comes back again as a Herald. . . He was so cute. . .*Grin*) If he %%comes back as a Companion, how long would it take? And how would you spell %%his name? Krys? *bg* It'd be nice if was reincarnated into another Herald %%though. . .he was really yummy, no? (Sorry everyone in advance, but I just had to say this) Wouldn't it be the best, though if Kris were a lucky soul chosen to come back as....a sheep?? Oh, that wooly coat, oh those sheepy eyes.. "I love you Kris!" "Baah!" %%%Ivy%%% ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:29:47 -0700 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sex scenes, Crusades Message-ID: <199608101229.FAA27239-+AT+-latimes.com> David Snyder (Lady Thessaly?) wrote: >I feel the same way [about Darkwind and Elspeth]. Unless it's incredibly well written, if I want >graphic, I'll stick to Penthouse Letters/Forum. Which is cheap and sleazy. I do not think that graphic is by definition "cheap and sleazy." The James Bond stories were originally published in Playboy, and I find the graphic sex scenes in them essential to Bond's character development--as well as incredibly well written. >If I want love scenes, do a discreet fade to black. It's got more class. Sometimes. Sometimes it is a copout. And sometimes it reveals conscious or unconscious prejudice. My original point was that authors should treat shaych and non-shaych couples equally. If the author slams the door on the private life of the shaych couple, the door should be slammed on the non-shaych (and non-human) couple as well. If the author is willing to follow the non-shaych couple beyond that door, then he/she should also be willing to follow the shaych couple. It's the (often unconscious) implication that intimate relationships between non-shaych couples (and even non-human couples) is okay but that such relationships between shaych couples are too offensives to show that I find objectionable. >Besides, maybe Misty has never HAD gay sex as a man,:) or seen it, and >therefore can't write about it convincingly. I know I couldn't write a love >scene about the gryphons, I've never seen flying animals mating, and >frankly, don't have the ambition. I must disagree. By your standards we could have no fantasy literature (or most fiction for that matter) at all, since Misty could not write convincingly about Velgarth because she's never been there or about a Companion because she's never seen one or about casting a magic spell because she hasn't done it. No author could go out and write about a murder unless he/she had killed. No man could write about having a child because he cannot give birth. That's simply unreasonable. > >*************** >I remember hearing of how some people, I think it was the English during the >CRusades killed EVERYONE from a town they captured. They lined all these >Arabian peoples up, chained them together, and slaughtered them one by one. >Can you imagine how the last person in line must have felt? It took THREE >DAYS TO FINISH!!!! I think suicide would be much desired in that case! Cite your sources, please. My emphasis for my doctorate is in medieval studies, and I've never heard or read anything at all like this. (Most of the Crusaders never got anywhere near the Holy Land let alone near Arabian peoples.) Even at the Siege of Jerusalem, one of the worst slaughters in the history of warfare, no such executions took place. Think about the logistics of what you are saying. Say 500 Arabian warriors were defending a town. How many Crusaders would it take to capture them and chain them up, where would the Crusaders get all that chain, and why on Earth would it take three days for an army of Crusaders to slit 500 throats (If the Crusaders have enough bodies to capture the Arabs, they have enough bodies to finish the task in less than an hour once the hypothetical prisoners are hypothetically chained and helpless)? Danya ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:47:01 -0700 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Birdcage Message-ID: <199608101247.FAA27338-+AT+-latimes.com> >>>>Okay, on the homosexual thread -- Have any of you seen "The Birdcage"? >It's a great movie.<<< > >The original French movie was much better, though. I've seen them both, and I was amazed at how closely THE BIRDCAGE followed LA CAGE AUX FOLLES. What few differences there were between the two films were largely cultural, mainly to make THE BIRDCAGE more accessible to mainstream American audiences (which, given the box office take, apparently worked). > >I found it almost offensively stereotypical. Even *I* am not that much >of a flaming queen, and I am the worst offender (along those lines) of my >entire social circle. I can honestly say that I don't know one gay man >who fits the characterizations in the movie. BTW, I am not the only one >to be offended by the movie. My (str8) professor was so offended by the >shallowness and lack of reality that he and his wife left before the >movie ended. Guess it depends on who you know. I DO know gays who are more outrageous even than the characters in the movie. Granted, they are not representative of the gay population as a whole any more than Jessie Helms can be said to be representative of the straight population as a whole. For me the point of the movie was that this is just how these characters happened to be and their actions/appearance didn't make them any more or less human than the characters who did not act/appear this way. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 96 20:35:59 PDT From: Delia To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Van & 'Lendel/Slaughter/Luck Message-ID: *Lady Windsong* wrote: >I don't agree that 'Lendel was *evil* (and no, that has nothing to do with >the fact that he sounds so *cute*!). I just think that he was pushed >over the edge by his twin's death. It probably is a *very* traumatising >experience to have your *twin* die, and know you can do nothing about it. It >would probably be like losing part of yourself. Any twins on list? I happen >to know a pair, and I can imagine them reacting like 'Lendel did if >something happened to one or the other. So, IMHO, 'Lendel was not quite >sane at the end, and certainly not behaving rationally. >Van was too young and inexperienced and so was Gala, and so they could not >have known *how* to deal with him, and stop his quest for revenge. Anyone >agree with me? (Whew, the end of that!) I *agree* with you. 'Lendel was after all *bonded* in a way to his brother. Probably the shock of feeling Staven die drove him. HOWEVER, Gala should have felt it too, after all she was his Companion. THat's the part I don't understand. When Staven died, Gala should have had the evidence to convict the BAD guys!! Sure, she couldn't stop him but she should have done something like telling Savil. I doubt twins in this world would go mad, maybe a bit *cranky*, who knows? THere was some news article sometime in the mists of history about a pair of twins dying one after the other. But they were 80-odd, so you can't blame them. Wow, my longest reply yet! Don't you just *luv* asterisk signs? ***************************************************************************** *Lady Thessaly* wrote: >I remember hearing of how some people, I think it was the English during the >CRusades killed EVERYONE from a town they captured. They lined all these >Arabian peoples up, chained them together, and slaughtered them one by one. >Can you imagine how the last person in line must have felt? It took THREE >DAYS TO FINISH!!!! I think suicide would be much desired in that case! That's *HORRIBLE*!!! Wouldn't it be psychological, emotional and physical torture for the last guy? BTW, a trivial question: were they fed while they waited or even watered? (Oh dear, I degraded them to the status of animals; *watered*!!) How did they slaughter anyhow? Slow execution by a *blunt* axe, toy guns or a *conk* to the head? (This is getting bloodthirsty,) ***************************************************************************** *Cat\/\/oman* wrote: >Well, I just got over 300 pieces of mail, so I hafta sort it out and see >what I'm gonna reply too...wish me luck! *GOOD* luck!!!!!! May you reply interestingly! Sorry, I a bit *cranky* at the moment, freezing in the aircon and too lazy to get up and switch it off. Brrr! ***************************************************************************** Lotsa Luv, Delia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:33:04 -0400 (EDT) From: skarzin-+AT+-soonet.ca (Tony and Michele) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long) Message-ID: <199608101333.JAA14588-+AT+-victory.soonet.ca> Greetings All, Conditional/Unconditional Love There have been a lot of comments to the effect that the Companion Gala didn't love Tylendel unconditionally, because she repudiated him. I'm sorry, but I can't agree. She repudiated him because she could not condone his actions. He chose to massacre innocent people without warning, as an act of vengeance. The Tylendel she knew, would never have done these things. He was no longer Tylendel, her Chosen, but someone else entirely. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dirk's Definition of Evil: "It seems to me that evil is a kind of ultimate greed, a greed that is so all-encompassing that it can't ever see anything lovely, rare, or precious without wanting to possess it. A greed so total that if it can't possess these things, it will destroy them rather than chance that someone else might have them. And a greed so intense that even having these things never causes it to lessen one iota-the lovely, the rare and the precious never affect it except to make it want them." - page 210, Arrow's Fall ------------------------------------------------------------------- Tylendel: Tylendel destroyed the Leshara in such a horrible way because of his grief, his outrage, and because they were happy, celebrating the Harvestfest with singing and laughter. "He's dead, you bastards! He's dead, and you're laughing, you're singing! Damn you all, I'll teach you to sing a different song!" - page 197, 'Magic's Pawn' Tylendel became a murderer because he could not bear to see joy and laughter, when he believed that he would never laugh or feel joy again. "A greed so total that if it can't possess these things, it will destroy them rather than chance that someone else might have them." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Choice: I love my husband. Would I die to save his life? Yes. Would I stand by while he slaughtered innocent people? No. The man I love is not capable of such actions, if he were, I would never have fallen in love with him. If he changed so much that he could murder innocents , he would no longer be the person I married. Gala suicided to protect the Leshara from Tylendel, and IMO, because she could no longer live with the person he had become. Michele (who has stocked up on barbeque sauce in the expectation of being crisped) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:36:20 -0400 From: Sarah Worley To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long) Message-ID: <199608101436.KAA19314-+AT+-sorsha.dassin.org> On August 10, Michele wrote: > Conditional/Unconditional Love > There have been a lot of comments to the effect that the Companion > Gala didn't love Tylendel unconditionally, because she repudiated > him. I'm sorry, but I can't agree. The very definition of "unconditional" is that the love will exist regardless of whoever, whatever the person does and will ever do. Had Gala.. instead of repudiating him.. seen that he needed help to work through his grief and chosen to stay by his side, regardless of the actions he had done.. *that* would have been unconditional love. By the fact alone that there was *one* thing that Tylendel could have done that Gala could no longer love him for.. that would make her love conditional. "Yes, I will love you, as long as you do not do *that*." I think that is understandable, even acceptable. Do I love my boyfriend? Yes, very much. If he were ever to the point of doing what 'Lendel did.. and nothing I could do or say would be able to sway him.. he would not be the person I love. And I dont think I could love him or stay with him after such an act. Is my love conditional? Yes, I believe so. But I believe it is necessarily so. I have faith in my love and faith in him, and I believe that he will never do anything near what 'Lendel did. And so that particular condition of my love will never be tested. > Tylendel became a murderer because he could not bear to see joy and > laughter, when he believed that he would never laugh or feel joy > again. I disagree.. 'Lendel became enraged when he saw the festivities not because he couldnt bear to see joy and laughter, but because he saw them as specifically and only celetrading that *his brother* was *dead*. Not because they were normal people celebrating their harvestest.. but because in his mind, the only thing they were celebrating was the death of his twin. > "A greed so total that if it can't possess these things, it will > destroy them rather than chance that someone else might have them." I dont believe that this definition suits 'Lendel at all. He didnt kill those people just because they were happy, or just because they were celebrating. It was what he *thought* they were celebrating that enraged him. > I love my husband. Would I die to save his life? Yes. Would I stand > by while he slaughtered innocent people? No. The man I love is not > capable of such actions, if he were, I would never have fallen in love > with him. If he changed so much that he could murder innocents , he > would no longer be the person I married. At the time of 'Lendel's death, Vanyel had neither the strength of person nor the strength of relationship that you have. Zhai'hai'allav'a Dass A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into superstition, and art into dassin-+AT+-ist.net pedantry. Hence University education. http://www.dassin.org -G. B. Shaw ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:35:19 -0400 (EDT) From: philip dancause To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid:Ware-nominee\Kris Message-ID: <199608101535.LAA10579-+AT+-smtp1.erols.com> At 04:42 AM 8/10/96 +0100, you wrote: > >Well, it'd be nice to see Kris even come back as a Companion (if he never >comes back again as a Herald. . . He was so cute. . .*Grin*) Only >thing is, it almost seems like it takes a long time for that to happen. I >mean, look at Savil (Sayvel), Jaysen (Jasen--I may have these two switched >around), and Tantras (Tantris) They were all out of Van's time and just >showed up now in the present. If he comes back as a Companion, how long >would it take? And how would you spell his name? Krys? *bg* It'd be nice >if was reincarnated into another Herald though. . .he was really yummy, no? >> It may be that those three chose to come back in Elspeth and Talia's time because that's when they were needed. Remember, they've all had extensive experience with real magic, something Valdemar is just rediscovering. i don't know if anyone has noticed but the former Herald-mages bonded with foreigners who'd both experienced plenty of real magic (Kero and Daren). On the other hand, Tantris bonded with Kris, who studied the Heraldic Gifts. IIRC, Tantras was the herald who brought the discriminitory feelings about unmagegifted Heralds to Van's attention. If there's ever a time when the mage gift is a liability and the common Gifts have died out or a re unrecognised, Kris would probably come back then. :) Ami ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:43:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long) Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Sarah Worley wrote: > The very definition of "unconditional" is that the love will > exist regardless of whoever, whatever the person does and will ever > do. Had Gala.. instead of repudiating him.. seen that he needed help > to work through his grief and chosen to stay by his side, regardless > of the actions he had done.. *that* would have been unconditional > love. But you see, it still was unconditional love. You can not approve what a person is doing and still love them. I think Gala still loved him when she repudiated him, it broke her heart to do that. If she didn't love him anymore, then she wouldn't have cared what happened to him. She wanted to stop him from making a horrible mistake, because she loved him. I'm almost afraid to say this, but I just keep thinking it the whole time I read these posts. Before I do, let's not get into the topic of religion again, if you don't believe in God and Co. Just pretend this is a story from a really long, really cool book. It's much the same as the love between God and us. He loves us unconditionally, but he'll also send people to Hell if they aren't living up to his expectations. It breaks his heart to do it, and he still loves us, but he'll do it none the less. And that's much the same way it is between Gala and 'Lendel. May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path, *********************************************************************** * Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals * *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles * * Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at: * * http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:03:38 CDT From: "Hth." To: Subject: Van/Cen&Sex/Van&Sex/Evil/Queens Message-ID: <10AUG96.14105479.0016.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> UNFRIENDLY???? Lord have mercy. I would like to see how you people handle Vanyel's life. Broken lifebond -- something most people don't even survive. Unable to be close to anyone, due to a dangerous, demanding job, societal prejudices, AND the fear he inspired even in other Heralds. Doing the work of four Heralds in a war zone. And you want him to be perky and innocent like a seventeen-year-old kid who's never even ridden circut before? Unlikely. We saw inside Vanyel's head a lot, and yes, he was pretty miserable and he knew it. But remember -- this was inside. You wouldn't have strangled Vanyel, because Vanyel did his level best, fairly successfully, to keep it together on the outside. He rarely, RARELY "whined." To other people he was generally charming and caring. Vanyel isn't everyone's type. He is somewhat dark, a private, brooding person, and definitely hard to get close to. But criticizing him for being that way seems a bit harsh. He was what life made him, and unlike Dirk or Kris or Darkwind or whoever else you all are drooling after these days, he did have his flaws. Why can't Misty have a character who is less than all things to all people without having people start cataloguing all the reasons he's not good enough to be their friend? Okay, that all came out really harsh, and I do apologize. Can you tell I like Vanyel? I think, as a writer myself, he's the most realistc, compelling character she ever wrote about, and I get sick of good characters who never seem to struggle to be that way. It wasn't easy for Van to be a Great Hero, but he did it anyway, and I'm glad that was the case. If he hadn't been whiny and unfriendly (always assuming he was those things, which I still don't really agree with), he would have been sickeningly, saintly, inhumanly perfect, and the book would have been obnoxious, and I probably wouldn't be here today. Okay, Cennydd, I'm sorry I chided you about your ecdysiastic tendancies (and yes, I learned it from Gypsy). But can't you have a little compassion? You gay men get whole clubs formed for your adoration. At least spare a sympathetic thought for your meek and wistful wife, home cooking or something while you're out charming the natives. I hope it's obvious to everyone that I was in no way suggesting that Magic's Price should have become Penthouse. How can I explain myself clearly? I like love scenes -- I think they are enjoyable and informative. Fade-to-blacks do not qualify as love scenes. There have to be words on the page to qualify. Guys, believe me, it can be done tastefully. I've read them, I've written them, it ain't that hard. And it's not one of the labors of Hercules to write scenes involving pairings you've never been in. Again, I do it regularly. You should read my Nasenach and Affuin scene. Definitely never done that personally. It involves a minimal amount of research and a fair amount of creativity. Fallacious reasoning to separate evil actions from evil people? In your opinion, maybe, but I beg to differ. The very idea that people are "evil at the time," popping back and forth randomly strikes me as silly. People are who they are, and if they change, it's dramatic and lasting. Most of the time, the seemingly contradictory things people do can be explained, if you really know how this person thinks. Think about this. What if 'Lendel had not succeeded in killing himself. Now he stands accused of these crimes, and you have to sentence him. His rage has passed, leaving him with only pain, loss, and guilt, so intense that he wants to die. If he's evil (comparisons to Ma'ar were made -- insane and dangerous), then he needs to be executed, because heaven knows here in Valdemar we kill evil people. *But if he's not*, if he's a kid who snapped under tremendous pressure and did evil things, not because he himself was evil, but because he failed to make the right decisions and let his emotions rule him, then he needs help. He needs the people who love him, and healing, and restoration. Would you really hang him? By committing an evil act, has he suddenly become intrinsically evil? Or is he just a human being who was fatally, tragically weak at a crucial moment? I really dislike this pop fantasy notion that good guys are always good and bad guys are always bad and no one falls in between. What a rotten message to send out to people who are trying to cope with the real world, where you'll meet very few angels or monsters. I've seen people start treating real human beings like this, like one action means they are no longer good and worthwhile people, and that sort of attitude just makes me ill. I liked Birdcage pretty well, and so did all the gay people I know. As for various levels of flamingness, I know plenty of people who are as effeminate as Armand, or more so (Armand wasn't all that flaming, I didn't think). And believe it or not, some people are like Nathan Lane's character. Far from most, but some. And there's a level of me that resents Hollywood's willingness to show gay people *as long as they can reassure the audience that these people are normal.* That they're not different, not scary, whatever. I like that, to a degree. I liked Philadelphia, I liked Boys on the Side. But there are those of us who are just not "normal" by the standards of straight society. And it's sad to see not even straights, but gay people as well, ostracize these people as "too gay." Like we can only allow you to be gay if you don't act it. Like gay people are acceptable because they are like straight people, instead of because they are human beings and deserve respect as such. In Birdcage, the message was not like Philadelphia -- "see, this is a nice normal guy just like you; he doesn't deserve this treatment." The message was, "yes, they're weird, they're totally unlike you and your family, but they are human, and they love each other and their son; they don't deserve this treatment." IMO, both have their place. I'm wary of saying, we're totally inclusive and accepting, as long as you're a successful lawyer and Tom Hanks to boot, but don't push it, buddy. We should accept people because it's what we do, not because of what they're like. Comfort & Joy, HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 764 *********************************