MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 772

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Drugs/Vrondi/Velgarth movie/Quit cursing my friends!!!
	by Lady Jaguar <rholsen-+AT+-sidwell.edu>
  2) Master Cast List!!!!! (5!) (fwd)
	by Lady Jaguar <rholsen-+AT+-sidwell.edu>
  3) trans dust/vrondi braid
	by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl
  4) ADMIN: ok, I'm back
	by Melanie Dymond Harper <mel>
  5) Re: Van
	by "Diana L. Heald" <dlheald-+AT+-ais.syr.edu>
  6) Re:Gala/ Drugs in Listy's books
	by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker)
  7) Braid: Casting/Misty Anthology/Vanyel's relationships/Voice only
	by myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao)
  8) Casting/Yippee,cpunk fans!
	by Claris Smith <ccsmith-+AT+-comp.uark.edu>
  9) Willow/Misty Anthology
	by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
 10) Braid: Repudiation/Evil/Loki/LingX/stuff
	by Le destin des fees <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
 11) Casting/Yippee,cpunk fans!
	by poisoniv-+AT+-sprynet.com
 12) Re: Remington Steele as Van
	by Becky Anne Christensen <beckyanne-+AT+-sybok.iforge.com>
 13) Re: Xanth
	by Becky Anne Christensen <beckyanne-+AT+-sybok.iforge.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:46:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lady Jaguar <rholsen-+AT+-sidwell.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Drugs/Vrondi/Velgarth movie/Quit cursing my friends!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960812080424.19356A-100000-+AT+-gateway.us.sidwell.edu>

Kory wrote: Also, the painkiller....you know, the one used on Van to keep
him from knocking the palace over in pawn, and the one talia uses to
suicide....I'm sure it's abused... 

	Argonel. Also there was dreamerie, then the dust...my guess is 
that argonel is the Valdemar version of morphine/heroin and dreamerie and 
tran are some sort of hallucinogens. 

--------------------------------------------

I'd imagine that Herald-Mages are *not* the only ones to have discovered 
the Vrondi, but given the way they seem to do everything else, they 
probably refined it to death, so that it only *seems* like no one else 
can use the Vrondi.....SOULGLOBES??? <giggle> Waitaminute....

--------------------------------------------
No! No cartoons! I can just see the "Heralds of Valdemar" Christmas 
special...<shudder> or worse yet...a THEME SONG!! Hells, no. OTOH, we did 
create a cast list, which I'll post right after this...

--------------------------------------------
Kimber wrote:
> Grrrr. <squishes the urge to flood Shadow-lover's mailbox with Barney 
> lyrics>

	Do that and I spam you with GoodTimes notices. And quit 
threatening Mat! <g>
--------------------------------------------


8//////]==================>
LADY JAGUAR of the Cat People
Companion Lavaan
Serphant Says: Don't drink the water, fish f*** in it.
8//////]==================>







------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 00:49:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lady Jaguar <rholsen-+AT+-sidwell.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Master Cast List!!!!! (5!) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960813004914.28351A-100000-+AT+-gateway.us.sidwell.edu>




8//////]==================>
LADY JAGUAR of the Cat People
Companion Lavaan
Serphant Says: Don't drink the water, fish f*** in it.
8//////]==================>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:16:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Rosario Holsen-Baker <rholsen-+AT+-sidwell.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Master Cast List!!!!! (5!)

All right, everyone! The master cast list! It's in alph. order, and 
categorized by section (i.e. magewars, Valdemar: Selenay, Valdemar: 
Elspeth/Ran, etc.)

Valdemar: Selenay
-------------------------------
Alberich - Leonard Nimoy (2), Rutger Hauer (3), Sean Connery, Clint
 Eastwood (2), Gerard Depardieu, Harrison Ford, James Earl Jones, Patrick Stewart 
Ancar - Michael Wincott, Eddie Furlong, Tim Curry (2), Pierce Brosnan
Charliss - Patrick Stewart (2)
Daren - Mel Gibson, Pierce Brosnan 
Dirk - Antony Andrews, Gary Oldman (2), Larry Wilcox 
Elcarth - 
Eldan - Harrison Ford (3)
Elspeth (child) - Kirsten Dunst 
Elspeth (adult) - Jodie Foster, Samantha Mathis (2) 
Hulda - Susan Sarandon, Demi Moore, Sigourney Weaver
Jadus - 
Karal - Matthew Perry, Matthew Broderick (2) 
Kerowyn - Brigitte Nielson, Grace Jones, Michelle Pfeiffer, Sharon Stone, 
 Rene Russo, Cory Everson 
Kris - Cary Elwes (5), Michael Praed, Bruce Campbell
Kyril -Harrison Ford 
Orthallen - Christopher Lee, James Earl Jones (2), Patrick Stewart (3), 
 Tim Curry, Pierce Brosnan, Christopher Walken 
Selenay - Susan Sarandon (2), Winona Ryder, Faye Dunaway (2), Glenn Close 
Sherril - Winona Ryder (2) 
Skif - Michael J. Fox, Matthew Broderick (5), Christian Slater, Kurt
 Russell, Christian Bale (2), Tom Cruise, Dexter Fletcher, Tim Roth
Talia - Jamie Lee Curtis, Nana Visitor, Jodie Foster (3), Fairuza Balk, 
 Uma Thurman (3), Samantha Mathis, Molly Ringwald, Clare Danes
Tremane - Rutger Hauer, Harrison Ford (2), Tim Curry
Ulrich - Sean Connery 


Tayledras/Shin'a'in
----------------------------------------
Brightstar - 
Darkwind - Lou Diamond Phillips (2), Daniel Day-Lewis
Falconsbane - David Bowie, Antonio Banderas, Tim Curry, Dennis Hopper
Firesong - David Bowie (2), Tim Curry, Jim Carrey (noooo!)
Jadus - Derek Jacobi
Kethry - Michelle Pfeiffer (2), Kate Winslett
Moondance - 
Starblade - James Earl Jones (not funny)
Star-Eyed - Cher
Starwind - 
Tarma - 


Valdemar: Randale/Elspeth
--------------------------------
Donni - Jodie Foster
Jisa - 
Leareth - Tim Curry
Lissa - 
Randale - Harrison Ford
Savil - Michelle Pfeiffer, Katherine Hepburn (3)
Shavri - 
Stefen - Ethan Hawke, Chris O'Donnell (2)
Tantras - 
Trevan - 
Tylended - Chris O'Donnell (2), Stan Kirch
Vanyel - Michael Praed (4), Pierce Brosnan (2), Jason Connery, Rick 
 Springfield, David Copperfield, a Baldwin
Withen - Sean Connery (2), Patrick Stewart


Mage Wars
------------------------------
Amberdrake - 
Cinnibar - 
Ikala - Denzel Washington
Judeth - 
Ma'ar - 
Shalaman - James Earl Jones (5)
Silverblade - 
Snowstar - 
Tamsin - 
Urtho - 
Winterhart - 


Voices Only
------------------------
Altra - 
Aubri - 
Florian -
Gesten -  
Hydona - 
Keenath - 
Rolan - James Earl Jones 
Skandranon - Michael Wincott 
Tadrith - 
Treyvan - 
Yfandes - Julia Roberts
Zhaneel - 

*****LADY JAGUAR*****
Leader of the Cat People
Lady in Green
LGMCB, DHTBB
"The mice may have the right
but the cat has the claws."
*********************









































































------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 11:18:53 +0200
From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: trans dust/vrondi braid
Message-ID: <9608130918.AA15239-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl>

Heyla,

I am slowly crawling out from under too much work and too much mail
- got forced into mass deletion for a week or so - this morning was
wonderful - only 40 or so mails (unlike the 280 or so that awaited
me Monday morning) - so my Lackey folder is again only holding the 
40 or so things I hang on to, and I shall attempt to juggle work
and list .....


Danya wrote:
> Well, it's spelled like the old name for Wales, so perhaps it is pronounced
> that way:  COOM-ree (don't you love Celtic languages?)

So that's where I got my Coom-ree from - being english, at the very
least I know how the welsh pronounce Wales ....

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Trans dust - as part of my read through of the first Winds book for
Kory, I found a mention of trans dust from Darkwind - don't have
the book here, but it's when we first meet ol' fanny-doodah - 
(Dawnfire??? The one that got herself avatared later), and she's 
sending Darkwind mental caresses or summat, that are "as intoxicating 
as trans dust." Implication? Darkwind knows what Trans dust use feels 
like, and it's use is known to the Tayledras. 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Shadow-Lover:
> In MPrice Vanyel mentions that the Heralds are the only ones who 
> have discovered the Vrondi...  He also alludes to the idea that 
> they are the only ones who can see them as well... 

Nope, also in Winds of Fate, Darkwind recollects Treyvan (or whatever
the male gryphon's name is) telling him that the gryphons are as
effective truth sensors as the vrondi. Implication? Van got the
vrondi from Moon-thingy and whatsit, back in LHM days.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Kimberly:
> how can vrondi, which are air elementals, look into someone's 
> thoughts and force them to tell the truth?
Weeell, having recently re-read some of the Recluse books, the Order
Masters there are physically unable to lie - their insides hurt them. 
Maybe Vrondi are able to sense the rightness of a truth, and the 
wrongness of a lie, and act on that?

That'll do me for today,

tot ziens,
Esmeralda Evensbane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:08:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Melanie Dymond Harper <mel>
To: mercedes-lackey
Subject: ADMIN: ok, I'm back
Message-ID: <199608131108.MAA24455-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk>

Your friendly listmistress is now back from Prague (a lovely place, well worth
a visit, especially if you like beer). I probably won't get a chance to sort
through list-related mail until tomorrow, though, so please wait until then
to thrust problems under my nose if you possibly can :)

Cheers

Mel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:41:24 EST
From: "Diana L. Heald" <dlheald-+AT+-ais.syr.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Van
Message-ID: <8A7A6471DB-+AT+-ais.syr.edu>

D

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Hth. wrote:

> UNFRIENDLY????  Lord have mercy.

>    Okay, that all came out really harsh, and I do apologize.  Can you
> tell I like Vanyel?  

I tend to agree - I liked Vanyel.  I don't like perfect people - they 
tend to be snooty.  I think that's why I like old testament history - 
it shows these great men and women of the Bible - warts and all.  
Abraham was ready to sacrifice his son, but tried to pass his wife 
off as his sister because he was afraid someone might try to kill him 
to get her.  Moses got fed up with the children of Israel, but then 
turned around and argued with God, no less, that they were worth 
saving.  

Great men tend to get past their weaknesses and foibles and do great 
things.  If Vanyel tended to be a bit distant - look what happened to 
him the last time he put his body and soul into a relationship.  That 
could make one a little gunshy.

I was married for 10 years to an abusive husband and have been 
divorced for 9 years.  I haven't even tried to date in that time and 
I don't know when I will be ready for that again.  I don't trust my 
own judgment in that regard right now.  I am a people person and I 
have many dear and close friends of both sexes - but not any closer.  
I've put my energy into my sons, my work, my home, my church, my 
friends.  I don't know when I would have time for anything else - 
that's what I keep telling myself.

Diana
***********************************************************
Diana L. Heald
Syracuse University
Email: dlheald-+AT+-ais.syr.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:26:48 -0700
From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re:Gala/ Drugs in Listy's books
Message-ID: <nB9DywHqhJYO088yn-+AT+-cet.com>

>
On Mon, 12 Aug 1996 chenchen speculated;
>
>Look, if Gala interfered, Lendel will not have gone for revenge or rather
>not use Vanyel as a channel for magic. Therefore in simple words:   Gala
>interfered --> Lendel either did not ask Vanyel for help or never gone for
>revenge --> Vanyel never used as a channel for magic --> no backlashing of
>power when Gate close --> Vanyel's gifts channels will never be blasted -->
>gifts will never be discovered --> NO LAST HERALD MAGE! 
>

Or maybe the next week there was some great crisis on the Karsite border
and all the other Herald-Mages have to go down there leaving only 'Lendal,
with help from Van to deal with the giant mutant sheep ravaging the west
of Valdemar? 8)# It could have happened some other way or at some later 
date but Misty chose to do it this way. Why? To get a true answer you'd
have to ask her somehow but my guess is she wanted to make Van suffer so 
we'd all pity him.

>
>/\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\/
>/\\//\\//\\//\\//\\//\\
>
>>Also, the painkiller....you know, the one used on Van to keep him from 
>>knocking the palace over in pawn, and the one talia uses to 
>>suicide....I'm sure it's abused...
>
>I don't think the drug used on Vanyel was abused. I don't think anyone at

Uhm I think the meaning here was that *other* people might abuse this drug
not that it's use to control Van's powers was an abuse.

David Tiffany, God of all you mistype!


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:15:57 +0000
From: myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Braid: Casting/Misty Anthology/Vanyel's relationships/Voice only
Message-ID: <199608131508.KAA04915-+AT+-cdale1.midwest.net>

Danya wrote:
>>>Hmm.  I could take Pierce Brosnan just about any day--sweet man.  But I
think he may be getting too old for Vanyel.  Tom Cruise is more in the age
bracket, isn't he?  But he doesn't have the necessary edge that Brosnan has
(that Sean Connery deadliness of being able to sit across a table from a
woman and the audience never knowing if he's going to kill her or make love
to her).  Val Kilmar might be a possibility--he's quite the chameleon;  he
certainly made a convincing Jim Morrison.<<<

Okay, if they made a movie *now* of Magic's Price, Pierce Brosnan would be
perfect. Tom Cruise is VERY handsome, but I think he's too short. I was
thinking about him for Eldan, but I realized he was supposed to be taller
than Kero. And I thought about Nicki (Nicole Kidman) for Kero... More like
Keth, don't you think? Okay, and Val Kilmer... another yummy soul! I think
he'd take it well being in a fantasy movie because he's done Willow
(Personally, I regret never seeing that movie).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Undine wrote:
<snip>
>>> Now, if you were going to 
write about Valdemar, on who/when would you focus?<<<

Tarma and Kethry(does that qualify as Valdemar)? If it doesn't qualify, I'd
focus on Skif and Dirk on their training circuit. Or an unusual Choosing
(like Talia's or Tashir's). Vanyel, maybe. Do you think Marion Zimmer
Bradley wrote something for the anthology? I really hope so -- she's great.
I hope Larry DIDN'T write anything for the anthology -- if he really
co-wrote some of her not-so-great books, I wouldn't want to read his stuff.

Anyone read S&S XIII? It's great. No Misty story, but my favorite is
"Patchwork Quilt." I forgot who wrote it, but it's a really sweet story. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Diana wrote:
>>>Great men tend to get past their weaknesses and foibles and do great 
things.  If Vanyel tended to be a bit distant - look what happened to 
him the last time he put his body and soul into a relationship.  That 
could make one a little gunshy.<<<

Once burnt, twice shy. I believe he was thinking along the lines of "If I
didn't get involved, I wouldn't get hurt" or "If I didn't get involved, no
one I love would be hurt." It's logical thinking, for the most powerful
Herald-Mage (ends up being the last) in Valdemar. But I've said it once,
and I'll say it again -- LOVE IS NEVER LOGICAL! 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On the Cast List, I've taken the liberty to fill in the Voice Only with my
own preferences:

Voices Only
------------------------
Altra - Bruce B(I forgot the rest) from Bab5
Aubri - Walter Matthau
Florian - Wil Wheaton (Wesley Crusher from ST:TNG)
Gesten - "The Doctor" from Voyager
Hydona - Whoopi Goldberg
Keenath - The voice of "John Smith" from Pocahontas
Rolan - SEAN CONNERY!!!
Skandranon - David What's-his-face from X-Files
Tadrith - Matthew Broderick
Treyvan - Patrick Stewart
Yfandes - Denise Crosby, Barbra Streisand
Zhaneel - The really smart girl from "Say Anything"(It's a movie)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lady Jaguar wrote:
>>>No! No cartoons! I can just see the "Heralds of Valdemar" Christmas 
special...<shudder> or worse yet...a THEME SONG!! Hells, no. OTOH, we did 
create a cast list, which I'll post right after this...<<<

Actually, if we could FILK the theme song, it wouldn't be as bad... from
what I hear, Heather Alexander is a GREAT singer. But they didn't have
Christmas in Valdemar (IIRC), so they can't do a gods-forsaken Christmas
special! But if they make it into a Disney cartoon, I swear I will leave
this mudball! They were not completely goody-goody two shoes like the Care
Bears, Chip and Dale (gods help those who still watch it...), etc. There is
no absolute black and white; it's mostly shades of gray. I mean, Ma'ar was
a blood-path mage, but he did care a great deal about his troops, IIRC.
Does anyone want to share the expenses for a one-way trip to planet Vulcan
with me if they do a joint special with the Heralds of Valdemar and
Barney:):):)?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Okay, it was kind of long, but more Misty-related than some of my stuff
from the past... Ciao!

Love,
Summersong, sometimes Spiffy the Cat

"Harmony and me, we're pretty good company
Looking for an island in our boat upon the sea
Harmony, gee I really love you and I want to love you forever
And dream of the never, never, never leaving harmony" --from "Harmony" by
Elton John


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:00:48 -0500
From: Claris Smith <ccsmith-+AT+-comp.uark.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Casting/Yippee,cpunk fans!
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960813160048.007f54a8-+AT+-comp.uark.edu>

Gyahhhhhhh...no offense, but does it not seem that on some of the casting
suggestions people just automatically chose the most high-profile
actor/actress with the right color of hair? ;)  Especially when you remember
how many of these characters were described as less-than-gorgeous, or just
plain homely.  (Though I'm all for Rene Russo; I don't care if she plays
Kero or Laurana from Dragonlance or whatever) I always have trouble with the
female roles in these things, because there are about 6 actresses I can
stand (and Lauren Bacall isn't making movies anymore!). The rest seem so
Barbie-doll. I thinnk most of the Vanyel suggestions were a little too . . .
hrm . . . suave?  Actually, I don't think there's an A-list actor out there
capable of the role.  Ach, well, I guess if I'm not going to offer any
suggestions of my own, I ought to shut up.

WHoa, cool.  Bruce Bethke, the author who invented the word 'cyberpunk',
just wrote me back via e-mail.  There's my big scoop for the WWW premiere of
my 'zine, THE DRAGON ROARS, straight from Da Man.  If you have a truly
twisted sense of humor, or appreciate one, and work in a computer industry,
read his book _Headcrash_.  It's kind of like Dilbert on acid. =8*D


*Claris Smith, Art/History Major, GM, sf/fantasy Artist, Gung Fu Student*
 	*Mail me for info on Razorbattles convention & Art Show!*
 *ccsmith-+AT+-comp.uark.edu; 4045 Abington Ct. Fayetteville AR 72703-5065*
-On a journey, ill, and over fields withered, dreams--go journeying still-


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:15:29 -0700
From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Willow/Misty Anthology
Message-ID: <199608131615.JAA04354-+AT+-latimes.com>

At 04:29 PM 8/13/96 +0100, miyako hirao wrote:

>Okay, and Val Kilmer... another yummy soul! I think
>he'd take it well being in a fantasy movie because he's done Willow
>(Personally, I regret never seeing that movie).

Unfortunately the script of WILLOW fell victim to a basic problem that
plagues many scripts when filmmakers try to adapt folktales to feature film:
It promised the audience it was going to tell once story (about the child
who is found floating in a river and who goes on to become a great hero who
saves his--the twist for the movie was that the child was a girl--people
from some terrible fate (Everyone recognize the story of Moses?) and then
the film proceded to follow the adventures of the person who hauled the
child out of the river (like following the continuing story of an obscure
Egyptian princess when you were promised the story of Moses).  BIG story
structure gaff.  So the audience keeps waiting for the kid to grow up, and
she never does.  The Box Office figures showed that the film did not have
positive "word of mouth" advertising and probably had extremely negetive
"word of mouth," given how fast it died in distribution.  Audiences left the
theater feeling dissatisfied, and most of them probably never knew why.
Also, some of the special effects absolutely terrified children who would
not have been sensitive to the structure problem (our at-the-time
five-year-old friend was fine, but his eleven-year-old brother had
nightmares for months from the two-headed dragon).  So the film not only
subconsciously annoyed the adult audience, it inadvertently frightened some
members of the younger audience--both glitches that Ron Howard and George
Lucas have proven time and again that they know how to avoid.  All of which
puts WILLOW on my list of "The Most Frustrating, Potentially Good Films I
Have Ever Seen."

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Undine wrote:
><snip>
>>>> Now, if you were going to 
>write about Valdemar, on who/when would you focus?<<<

Two thoughts:  (1) Starwind and Moondance raising Vanyel's son (maybe
telling him about Vanyel's death) and (2) Stef at some point during that
horrendous period of time he was alone after Vanyel's suicide (liberally
sprinkled with dreams about happier times that might have been).

<snip>
>
>I hope Larry DIDN'T write anything for the anthology -- if he really
>co-wrote some of her not-so-great books, I wouldn't want to read his stuff.

>From an interview in the QO newsletter, I gather that Larry was responsible
for the plot glitch that annoys me so much in LHM--although the press
sending the MS from hardcopy to bookstore without changing so much as a
comma certainly didn't help!
>
Danya


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:35:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Le destin des fees <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: Misty Lackey List <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Braid: Repudiation/Evil/Loki/LingX/stuff
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960813123428.24084A-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Michele wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: Re: Unconditional Love/Evil/Tylendel/Choice (Long)

>>>I'm sorry, but I can't agree.  She repudiated him because she
could not condone his actions.  He chose to massacre innocent people
without warning, as an act of vengeance.  The Tylendel she knew, 
would never have done these things.  He was no longer Tylendel, her
Chosen, but someone else entirely.<<<

Ummmm.  Just out of curiosity, what is repudiation, if not the severing 
of a love-bond?  If Gala was anything like Rolan, she told 'Lendel that 
she would always love him and be there for him.  Then she repudiated that 
commitment (for very good and sufficient reason).  And 'Lendel was not a 
"different" person.  He was the same person he had always been.  He had 
just become evil enough that Gala could no longer love him as her 
Chosen.  If someone I love starts doing evil things, they haven't become 
"someone else."  They are the same person, doing evil things.  If they do 
something evil enough, or if they do enough lesser evils, I may decide 
that their essential nature has become evil and I would cease to love 
them.  I would still love the memory of what they had been, but certainly 
not the reality of what they had become.  

BTW, I have never accepted the premise that you can love someone and do 
unloving things to them (and repudiation is a very unloving act).  I tend 
to judge people by their actions, rather than by their words.  If you 
love someone, you don't ever tell them "I don't love you, I never want to 
communicate with you again" and then really cast them out of your life.  
If you loved them, that wouldn't be an option.  If your are able to do 
it, then you don't really love them (at least, not any more).  


>>>I love my husband.  Would I die to save his life?  Yes.  Would I stand
by while he slaughtered innocent people?  No.  The man I love is not
capable of such actions, if he were, I would never have fallen in love
with him.  If he changed so much that he could murder innocents , he
would no longer be the person I married.<<<

My argument is that he would be the exact same person, just changed.  And 
one of the conditions of love would be that he not slaughter innocents.  
There is nothing wrong with have limits and conditions on love.  In my 
opinion, love is too powerful and too important an emotion to exist 
without conditions.

-----EOM

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Kimi-chan wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: anysubject/ potatoes/unconditonal love/abbrev.list/striptease

>>>OTOH, note that this does not mean when you answer, that you will not
include a friendly little fire-elemental to give the questioner a hotseat
*gryn*<<<

I thought that that was implied. =)  I never flame sincere questions.  

>>>And, um, Cen... <giving in to morbid curiousity> how can mustard be 
florescent yellow? I always thought that florescent meant something like 
"a condition or period of flowering" or being in bloom.<<<

Actually, "flourescent" means glowing or flourescing, and is usually a 
reaction to UV rays.  "Florescent" does mean about to flower or in the 
process of flowering. It is based on the Latin inchoative verb 
"florescere" and meant "to become a flower."  The term I used is related 
to Flouron (an element) which has the quality of glowing in the presence of 
UV.  The mustard that I was talking about is that "French's Mustard" that 
is such an unwholesome bright-yellow that it seems to glow.  I like 
normal mustard, that is pale greyish yellow or dark yellow-brown.  Hold 
the turmeric, please.

ObMisty:  I wonder what kind of condiments they have in Velgarth.  And 
whether they have the equivalent of flourescent mustard, vile Miracle 
Whip, and crystalizing ketchup?  I'll bet Karse has mustard! and I'll bet 
that it is the real kind! =)

>>>As for the Star-Eyed... how are you backing this up? Because the
Shadow-Lover is an aspect of the gods, too, and he/she does in that last
moment love you, too.<<<

I don't really think that there is good evidence that the Shadow-Lover is 
anything but Vanyel's literary metaphor for death.  As for the Star-Eyed, 
she asks for sacrifices (both of lives and choices) throughout the V&H 
texts.  And if there really are nine hells for those of her followers 
that deserve them, she clearly has some limits on her love.  This gets 
back to my idea that actions, not words, are the important metric for 
love.  Condemning someone to hell is not an act of love...ever!

>>>ObMisty: (since this post was not what I'd call exactly Misty related...)
Do the ranks of the Blues include painters, and impressionists, and
writers? (Yes, this *was* a tad desperate, wasn't it? *gryn*)<<<

Hmmm.  Just what do you mean by "impressionists"?  especially as distinct 
from "painters"?  The Impressionists were a school of French painters in 
the late 1800's (I think that date is right) and early 1900's(?).  The 
movement spread to other countries, but always remained a painterly 
school of art.  However, to answer your question, I don't know.  
Theoretically, there should be artists in the Blues, but somehow I can't 
see Misty putting them in.  She really doesn't seem to like the arts, 
except music.  

>>>Oh, wait, I think I got one! ::smile:: p 232 MPawn "Companions seldom
outlive their Chosen" Does that mean that other than the MO, (yet another
abbreviation, hah! *giggle*) Companions *have* outlived their Chosen?<<<

Well, when Leareth is killing off the Herald-Mages, Van and Yfandes and 
Stef debate whether the death's of the Companions is foul-play.  The only 
reason for the debate is that Companions don't necessarily die when their 
Chosen does.  If it were otherwise, there would have been no need for the 
debate.

-----EOM

On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, Rylissia wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: Suicide/Murder/Request

>>>Now if you ask me, I would rather not be a captive. If there was no 
hope of escaping, then suicide would seem a very valid option.<<<

I think that it would depend on what was awaiting me in captivity.  But 
true, there are any number of situations where I would prefer to take my 
chances with death (torture--especially if I were going to be killed at 
the end, or if I had some vital secrets--comes to mind).

>>>What a gloomy post. This needs some Monty Python... just a moment...<<<

Okay, Rylissia, I realize that you have a great number of fellow fans on 
this list, but if you're going to do Monty Python imitations, please do 
it in a private post to your loyal fans, all right? =)  If you can do 
that, I think I can manage not to strip on channel.

-----EOM

On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, SummerSong wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: Braid:Kory/fantasylang./anime/Klingon/Ender's 
	       Game/Mindsinging,

>>>Okay, the thing with green hair -- the Japanese describe really 
beautiful black hair as "green black hair" in translation.<<<

This is a mistranslation (yes, dear, I know that your are Japanese).  I 
am fairly sure that the color term involved is "ao" which is a root word 
that means "blue" or "green" depending on the context.  Japanese doesn't 
have the same number of basic color terms that English does.  There are 
five basic colors in Japanese: shiro, kuro, aka, ao, and ki.  And there 
is some evidence that "ki" is not a basic color.  Anyway, the point is, 
"aoi" when applied to hair, should be translated as "blue."  Unless of 
course, a Japanese person, given a choice, would say that the hair is 
closer in color to leaves than to something blue (hyacinths?).  In this 
case, an argument could be made for "green hair" as a good translation.  

>>>On Skif, I imagined him as: mid-blond, blue-gray eyes, nicely tanned,
crooked smile, muscular, but not overly so, strong chin.<<< 

But, he is introduced as having dark-brown hair in AotQ and IIRC 
brown-eyes.  The book is at home, because I was just reading it last 
night, so I can't check at the moment.  I will check tonight.

-----EOM

On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Sarah wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: Re: Braid: Rolan's origin/'Lendel/Striptease/Evil

>>>Yes, I do know that the gay men are not exactly like the straight 
men (duh) but I bet they are just as !-+AT+-$$$^%$ commitment phobic, 
selfish, etc as the men down here.  (I hope there are no NZ males on 
this list, or I'm going to be in so much trouble!)<<<

Hmmm.  I am not from NZ, but I have to say that I find this to be rather 
sexist.  NZ can't all be commitment-phobic, or there wouldn't be any NZ 
families.  And commitment-phobia is not a strictly male characteristic.  
I know a lot of women who are at least as unwilling to make a commitment 
as any guy you could care to name.  

-----EOM

On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Barbara wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: Re: Van

>>>And that's okay for you not to like Vanyel (as I think Heather 
mentioned in her post.)  I happen to like him a lot, but everyone has 
their own tastes.  It just saddens me to hear people trounce on him 
because he's mortal and flawed like the rest of us.  Personally, I 
would have swooned if he'd but deigned to glare at me.<<<

Actually, I like him quite well as a character in a book.  I just 
wouldn't like to have to deal with him in person.  I don't generally deal 
well with people like that in real life.  They set my teeth on edge.  Of 
course, I would easily manage to be civil and distant, which is pretty much 
what Van seems to like.  On the other hand, if he deigned to glare at 
*me*, we *would* go there and there would be words.  

-----EOM

On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Kerry wrote:

BOM>>>Subject: Barb / Lotsa Misc / Kyree / Vanyel / Stef & Van per HTH / 
               Gala / Threesomes


>>>An interesting bit on the Loki thread, gathered from reasonably reputable
sources on the Pagan digest - ie hearsay Cennyd - I heard 'em say it -
Loki was a gender-shifter as well. The offspring that he had as male (The
Fenris wolf, etc) were uniformly anti-norse-gods/evil but the offspring
he/she had in female form (eg Odin's 6-legged horse S-whazzamacalit) were
'good'. Coincidence? Possibly.<<<

It might have more to do with the chronology.  Sleipnirr's conception was 
very early on in the Eddas.  The marriage of Loki and Angur-boda was 
later, and Loki was becoming increasingly evil.  He started out as a 
mischievous, but basically good god, and gradually came to be the point 
man for the opposition (by definition, evil).  The death of Baldur seems 
to have been the watershed for him.  BTW, does anyone know if he had any 
children by his wife Sygne?  She was the one who followed him into exile 
and tended him, keeping the serpent venom off of him, as much as she could.

>>>Gregarious (people-loving) and loner are the words you want - he can live
without the constant company of other people.<<<

I think that there was more to it than this.  He conciously worked at 
creating a persona to keep people at a distance.  

>>>And loners often make the best friends. Putting it baldy, but sometimes
you find that loners/non-people people are the most interesting around
simply because they've got their own thoughts and they spend time on their
own to come up with their own thoughts and ideas, rather than bouncing
'round in groups with people of similar thoughts and forming a group
consensus about every issue.<<<

I don't know.  I think each kind has its charms.  Gregarious people tend 
to be more fun to be around, and usually have better people skills, thus 
being easier to relate to.  Loners tend to have different perspectives.  
To be honest, though, in my experience, loners are not generally the best 
choice for friends, however rewarding it may be on an intellectual 
basis.  Loners tend to have to many rough edges for a comfortable 
friendship. 

>>>And like Heather said, he wasn't evil. He was a 16 yr old boy thrown in
-way- over his head and quite off-balance. I have nothing but sympathy
for him and even more antipathy towards Leareth for creating and 
orchestrating the situation.<<<

Killing innocents for revenge is evil.  There is no excusing it.  His age 
and inexperience and trauma might be reasons, but they are not excuses 
and they certainly don't make him innocent.  I had sympathy for him up to 
the point where he set the wyrsa on the Leshara.  At that point, my 
sympathy vanished.  If I had be Gala, I would have repudiated him also.

>>>I defy almost any teenager to behave rationally in that situation.<<<

Who said that evil is rational?  


May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Mage of the Green Silences.

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:35:00 -0700
From: poisoniv-+AT+-sprynet.com
To: Mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Casting/Yippee,cpunk fans!
Message-ID: <199608131635.JAA07245-+AT+-m4.sprynet.com>

Claris Said:

%%I thinnk most of the Vanyel suggestions were a little too . . .
%%hrm . . . suave?  Actually, I don't think there's an A-list actor out there
%%capable of the role. 

Oh dear!  It's just come to me like a revelation!! I know the perfect Vanyel; 
tragic, great acting range, could look like him, and has had recent trouble with 
the law.. One of my _personal_ Favorites: Robert Downey Jr.

%%%Ivy%%%

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Becky Anne Christensen <beckyanne-+AT+-sybok.iforge.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Remington Steele as Van
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960813094115.14300A-100000-+AT+-sybok.iforge.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, miyako hirao wrote:

> I LOVE VANYEL!!! But I think if Hollywood decided to make a movie out of
> this, it would be real hard to cast someone as Vanyel, young or old. My
> personal choice for the older Van is Pierce Brosnan... Anyone else?

	He would be pretty close, but whenever I see him I always think 
of him as Remington Steele. I kept thinking "What's Remington Steele 
doing in Mrs. Doubtfire?" when I saw that movie (hated that movie). I can 
just see him naming off old movies during battles

Van/Pierce: Forever in the Dark..MGM...1953
Stef: What?
Van/Pierce: This is very simalar to the plot in that movie.
Stef: What? You're thinking of movies now?
	
	Hee-hee, anyways, I say we recast it all (*again* ;)) just 
because that will give us something to do that's relatively flame safe 
until the next book comes out. Maybe we can think of people that we never 
thought of before.

                May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path,
    ***********************************************************************
    *        Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals        *
    *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles *
    *               Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at:               *
    *              http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html              *
    ***********************************************************************


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Becky Anne Christensen <beckyanne-+AT+-sybok.iforge.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Xanth
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960813101112.14300C-100000-+AT+-sybok.iforge.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 1996, Dawn Anderson wrote:

> Poison Ivy wrote:
> >
> > THAT's RIGHT Listmates!!! I Like Piers Anthony!!! I LIKE XANTH!!!!! 
> -- 
> Your not alone Poison I also love Xanth and Piers Anthony.  Its nice to
> pick up a book that is just for fun and makes you laugh.  
> 
> Dawn
> 
	OH MY GOSH!!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!! TMIW HAVE INFILTRATED 
THE LIST!!!!! (cut to Monty Python scene in front of the Frenchman's 
castle) Ru naway! Run away! Run away! Run away!


                May the Light of the Emerald brighten your Path,
    ***********************************************************************
    *        Lady Becky, Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals        *
    *Founder of the Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles *
    *               Keeper of the Mailing List Homepage at:               *
    *              http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html              *
    ***********************************************************************


------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 772
*********************************