MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 853 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Florian's ID/destiny/gay by jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin) 2) Long: Universes / Valdemar Religion / Web of Light / Mates&Destiny / Universal Morality. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 3) Magewar by Shaun Rodger 4) ADMIN: FAQ by Melanie Dymond Harper 5) Re: About Florian's ID by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu 6) Morality by "Hth." 7) Florian and stuff. by Morgana 8) Witchcraft / Life's Flame by Jake 9) Re: Morality by Wintershard 10) Re: Witchcraft/ Magical systems in Valdemar/ Ian McDonald/ Parody snippet. by mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa) 11) Re: Magewar by Ken Hyde 12) Re: Braid:/Religious freaks/An'sesha by ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com 13) questions, questions by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:07:27 -0400 From: jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Florian's ID/destiny/gay Message-ID: Jeanne said: > >With all the discussion of trying to figure out who Florian's human form is, >has anyone considered the possibility that it's NOT anyone that we know, and >that the description was included just so, in 2 or 3 books time, when we >meet a Herald who meets that description we will know that it's the >reincarnated Florian? > > Thats very possible. Or could it be both? Could It be the name Florian rings a bell because it was a name said just in passing? Like someone in a book talking about acient Heralds (like Sunsinger)? I do agree we are supposed to recognize him later. That would also mean there are more Valdemar books coming. Is it possible that Owlflight is a "10 years later" type of book? If it is, maybe we'll see him. --------------------------------- Ailsa said: > >I get the feeling i'm one of the oldies on this list - I'm not complaining >just wondering - I'm 44 yoa - what is the average age? > I'd probably say early twenties if you average it. I'm 27 (I'll be 28 next week, a fact I'm trying to forget!) Misty seems to atract people of all ages. I know a lady who is 66 who is a big Misty fan, and I've heard of kids as young as 11. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >One question - How does the idea of people having to follow a >prophecy/destiny appeal to you, my listsibs? I'm with Elspeth - I find it an >enathema (interesting choice of word- I went to the dictionary to find out >if I had spelt it correctly and its meaning is cursed). > I hate the idea. I want to make my own way, without any divine help. I want to look back at my accomplishments in life and say "I did that all by myself". I really dont like the idea of not having a choice about my life. I like "free will". (Glad we dont have arrainged marriages! I'd go nuts!) I'd probably react the same way Elspeth did! (I think that even if Ancar was perfect, Elspeth wouldnt have married him simple because it might be pre-ordained!) > >Ailsa, BTW, you can come babysit my kids anytime you like! (although you'd >probably leave in 10 minutes!) The ONLY person I trust to take care of my >kids is a Lesbian. She's also one of my best friends. (We found out >something. It doesnt matter what sex your "married" to. You still have the >same problems! Like, who's going to wash the dishes.) Is there anyplace >for us straight folks who support gay rights? I'm tired of seeing my gay >freinds getting the short end of the stick! Ok, thats it for tonight! Wind to thy wings! Julie (gotta start working on another name) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 96 18:29:59 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Cc: kerry_mealing-+AT+-il.us.swissbank.com Subject: Long: Universes / Valdemar Religion / Web of Light / Mates&Destiny / Universal Morality. Message-ID: <9610010829.AA15730-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Jake wrote: > Summersong wrote: > >On Fantasy worlds: > >I believe that there could be an infinitely many number of worlds out > >there, other planets, other dimentions, parallel universes (too much > >Trek??), alternate time lines (definitely too much Trek), and many what-if > >situations possible. So there could be a Velgarth, Pern, Darkover, Xanth > >(shudder), Palenoc, Lenfell, etc. out there, somewhere. Chances are almost > >nonexistent that we'll ever get there, but it's nice to think that they > >*might* somehow exist. > > *shudder* No, no no. These places are fictional. FICTIONAL. I really > doubt any of the places exist at all. Dimensions and alternate timelines > aside. A created fictional universe is not a real place. Could you imagine > Misty saying "I didn't write it... a little Companion from Valdemar came and > TOLD me all this stuff!" (Which would be a good excuse, I suppose, if > anyone complains about why the books are so bad.) I can't agree with you. > I'd hate to see if the Citadel was real, anyway.. it sounds like a terrible > place, and if Rynath ever found out it was MY fault what happened to him, > he'd come after ME! Well this was the premise of Robert Heinlin's (Oi! Quit with the stonings!) multiverses - particularly in "The Number of the Beast". Personally, I quite liked the book & the idea - every fictional universe exists in that place, with it's own laws and people and all the rest. The characters in the book end up in Oz (Frank Baum's Oz, not mine), Burrough's Mars, Sagan's universe and more than a few others, for example. And authors didn't have the excuse for poor writing, that the characters told them the story - the universe post-exists the author's story, not vice versa. Sure, there would be some verrry dark universes, but there'd also be some very very wonderful ones. You take the good with the bad. I know I'd slip into that multiverse like a shot (because technically it's cheating - I'd still get to visit home whenever I wanted to, as well as whatever other fictional universes I cared to visit). The multiverse also had alternate time-lines (where any sufficiently nexus-pointed event caused a splitting of a time-line into alternate paths). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EOM. HTH wrote: > ObMisty: Um. We don't know very much about religion on Velgarth. We > know a few dieties, and we know that they want us to be Good People, but > that's philosophy and ethics, not religion. We don't know much about > ritual or taboos or theology or anything like that. Not that I know > where I'm going with this. But there's your ObMisty. Sue me. <3rd > Rock from the Sun was on last night, and I always feel especially > cavalier after watching Sally. She's so cool.> Hmmm, some might make the point that religion is supposed to be about philosophy & ethics, and the worship of the focal point of the religion. The more present & hands-on, the focal point (deity, whatever) of the religion, the less ritualistic one might expect the religion to be. In some views, Christianity, for example (as I understand it) is ideally supposed to be about the individual's relationship with God and many of the rituals surrounding it seem to have arisen from the religious institution. Buddism, Taoism for example, don't have the religious institutions. It just seems as if the closer the religious focus & the individual are, the less need there is for an institution to formalize that relationship and the fewer rituals surround and formalize the relationship. If true, this could well be why we see churches prevalent and influential throughout Valdemar (because the Lord & Lady are very hands-off) and why the church is very powerful in Karse during Vkandis' 700+ year nap. Contrast this with the more direct connections of the Shin'a'in - where -any- Shin'a'in can walk the Moonpaths during full (?) moon, and Sword- sworn & Shamen simply enjoy a closer relationship with Kalenal. My point being (yes, I do have one) - we do see a reasonable amount of what one might term 'religion', in Valdemar. What we don't see, is too much of the religious institutions that surround religion in our world. Caveat: It occurred to me that the Wiccan/Pagan religions don't quite fit into this partition, given that (as I understand it), the practitioner has quite a close relationship with their Goddess/deity, but at the same time the circle structure is also quite ritualized. (NB: I'm not Pagan per se, simply an interested observer so Jake & Co please correct any misunderstandings on my part). :) Taboos and the like are often misunderstood remnants of social practices rather than religious ones (see, eg, the Old Testament's cleanliness taboos, and its instructions against mold and the like). Those that are religious are supposed to have come directly from the deity. In Valdemar, the deities seem quite reasonable (and less misquoted I suspect) so we don't see the prevalence of what seem to be irrational taboos. The one example of a rational taboo that is clearly religiously based is the Shin'a'in taboo against the use of magic. Hmm, I suspect I'm hair-splitting, so I'll quite before I get too far behind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EOM. Icewolf wrote: > How come we see very little sacred literature in Valdemar? We know of the > Book of One, quoted liberally by Mero, and of the Karsite Holy Book (the > name slips my mind for the moment), but nothing else. If there's this > amalgam of faiths in Valdemar, so much so that the students at the > Collegium take a Religions course (see Magic's Pawn), how come we don't > see any tenets of faith, or writings of prophets, or anything? I assume the churches do have them. We just don't see any particularly religious character. And again, if the gods are more hands-on, then there's less call for the intermediary of prophets & writings. As in the Christian Old Testament, the God[desse]s in Valdemar take a mouthpiece and make their power visible (Withen in Magic's P---) uses almost those words to L (the corrupt priest). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EOM. Lady Silvermoon asked: > Ummm...oh yeah. For anyone who has _Shadow Stalker_- in Web of Light, > there's a line that can be interpreted two ways. I'm wondering what you > think. It's "A trap to warn of magic that no mortal eyes can see." > Now does that mean...a trap that warns of invisible magic or... > and invisible *trap* for magic. Personally I'd say it's the magic that's invisible if it's sung the way you've punctuated it there. If there was a comma after "warn of magic" then I'd say it's the trap that's invisible. On the one hand, the Web is invisible, but on the other the Web is supposed to detect things out of sight of Heralds (because Heralds can't be everywhere at once). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EOM. "Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda" wrote: > Kerry wrote- Maybe it's a guy thing. Or regional. (Ailsa, for > >background reference for the phrase, I'm 21, originally from Far North > >Queensland - *grin* and I forbid you to say "Well that explains a -lot-"). > > **BIG GRIN** it just shows you are strong - and maybe I should acknowledge > my origins - older -44 - brought up in a small country town (200 people) in > South Oz - so my idea of mateship can be skewed and I do agree with your > analysis of SNAGS - it is just a lot of them weren't around when I was in my > 20s > I always like having my ideas challenged - well most of the time anyway - > *wryful look* > It's also good to have another Aussie on line. *grin* Oh, I've been here biding my time for over a year now. I just lurk a lot lately. :) There're about 8 or 9 Aussies on the list I think. > One question - How does the idea of people having to follow a > prophecy/destiny appeal to you, my listsibs? I'm with Elspeth - I find it an > enathema (interesting choice of word- I went to the dictionary to find out > if I had spelt it correctly and its meaning is cursed). Anethema I thought. *grin* I'm with Elspeth, I hate people telling me how to run my life (suggestions are fine, directives are not) - *grin* That's how I ended up doing law - my folks told me I wouldn't be suited to it. (The fact that they were right has nothing to do with the matter). On the other hand (Yes yes, I know, the original Octopoid man), I'm pragmatic enough to know when to go with the flow. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EOM. HTH wrote: > Hah, just when you thought this was going to be an EASY question. > I believe in universal, not individual morality. I believe in Truth > -- that's capital "T", things that simply are and will always be. The > concept of individual morality strikes me as someone's lame attempt to > say that they can do whatever the hell they like because they aren't > bound by any power except themselves, and if it fits in with their > personal morality, how dare anyone else question their wisdom. > Not referring to anyone specifically here, BTW. That's a composite > sketch of a number of people I've known who like to go on about their > own personal codes and how "differently moral" they are -- no, no one on > this list comes to mind, so nobody get insulted. > Just because there is no one, true way does not mean that all ways > are equally true merely by virtue of the fact that they exist. > BTW, by "morality" I'm not talking about how you worship, or if you > worship, or what you believe about sex or death or rock'n'roll. I'm > talking about things like not causing pain to other people, about > courage in the face of evil, about love and the sacredness of life. I > believe that these things, and others, are universally good and moral, > not just something that you decide to believe or not to believe, both > with equal validity. > Just my worldview. You can disagree with me, but I'll probably still > think you're wrong *grin* Alllll righty then. Lessee. :) Salt with lots of IMHO's. Firstly, I agree with what you've said. 100%. Sorta. But it's quite a black & white (extreme) view, in the same sense that believing that all morality is up to the individual is an extreme view. Yes, not causing unnecessary pain to others, courage, love etc are IMHO universally good & moral ... when painted with the broad brush. But lets look at the details - the grey issues. Where do you stand on lethal self-defence? Someone, intending to kill you, attacks with a knife - your only option is kill or be killed. Is there a universal moral answer? Some religions are completely passivist. Some religions (Christianity eg) are -ideally- passivist (I differentiate the two on whether a devout practitioner would likely uphold the tenets of his/her faith). A point closer to home - whether to tell a white lie to avoid hurting someone's feelings. There are some people so proud of their honour and personal morality that they don't care what they say, as long as they adhere to the Truth. Some would compromise their own personal honour for sake of a higher kindliness; or at least bend and colour the truth to do the least harm. What about euthenasia? Of the terminally ill. Of the clinically brain-dead? The possibly-eternally-comatose? Postulate the case where one person -must- die, that millions would live. Does the old cliche greatest good of the greatest number hold? No? What if that one was Hitler? Or Jack-the-Ripper? What about the sacredness of life? Or is some life more sacred than others.. and if so, who chooses - where is it written that there's one easy answer emblazened across the sky for every moral choice we face? It's easy to choose between absolutes. To choose between not causing pain, and causing pain. But it's not that easy to choose between hurting two different people, or different groups. Don't get me wrong - I agree with most of what you said - the line: "Just because there is no one, true way does not mean that all ways are equally true merely by virtue of the fact that they exist." is justified. But to say that there is a universal morality for every question, for every choice that we face, is to trivialize the trauma, the heartache and the occasional nobility that the human soul can exhibit; and I don't agree with that. Life's not easy and one person's definition of "the wrong way" is a lot to pin a universal morality on. And so is two people's, or three, or the whole Nazi camp. Crossing that line and making that definition is, in itself, a form of complete arrogance - but that's the fundament of the human psyche; and to refuse to cross it (as you suggest) and to refuse to define "a wrong way", is in itself, a choice - and often a cowardly one. Human perception is sketched in shades of grey. That's our greatest flaw, and our greatest virtue. I wouldn't, and don't, claim to be moral. I do the best I can, in a grey and uncertain world; and that's all anyone can ask. Whew. *smile* Please don't read any of that as intentionally offensive, I'm just laying out another viewpoint somewhere in between the two you [Heather] postulated. It's my wretched fate to be a moderate in life. (All right, a moderate radical, if you will). :) Cheers, Kerry. "Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right." - Ghandi, 1931 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 09:49:01 +0000 From: Shaun Rodger To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Magewar Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961001094901.2487bf92-+AT+-pop.dial.pipex.com> Can anyone tell me how to get onto the Magewar list? My mailbox crashed and I've lost most of my old stuff. . . . Thanks, Fair winds to ye, Griffin. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:30:46 +0100 (BST) From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: FAQ Message-ID: <199610010930.KAA15723-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> It seems like only yesterday that I posted the FAQ, but I've just finished sorting through about four days' worth of list bouncemail and so forth, and it looks like I need to post it again. Please read it if you want to know how to subscribe, how to unsubscribe, how to change to digest format... and so on. Mel Mercedes Lackey Mailing List FAQ -------------------------------- ============================================================================== Part 1 of this FAQ, which deals with administration of the mailing list, will be posted approximately monthly to the mailing list. All parts are available by the following methods: mail: send mail to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk, with a blank Subject: line, and message body: get mercedes-lackey lackey_faq.1 get mercedes-lackey lackey_faq.2 get mercedes-lackey lackey_faq.3 get mercedes-lackey lackey_faq.4 get mercedes-lackey lackey_faq.5 This will send the FAQ to you, in 5 separate messages. FTP: ftp://ftp.herald.co.uk/pub/lists/lackey-archives/ HTTP: http://www.herald.co.uk/local_info/lackey_faq.html ============================================================================== CONTENTS: Part 1 About the Mailing List Part 2 Merchandise, Ordering and Miscellanea Part 3 Lackey Bibliography Part 4 Frequently Discussed Topics on the Mailing List Part 5 Other Lackey-related Groups ============================================================================== Part 1. The Mailing List ------------------------ Version 2.0, May 24th 1995 Compiled by Melanie Dymond Harper New in version 2.0: Rewritten to reflect change of site. Added information about 'POSTPONE' setting. Changed feedback address. Swapped bibliography and administrative parts of the FAQ (admin now part 1, bibliography now part 3) New in version 1.4: External group information removed (now in part 5 of FAQ) New in version 1.3: changes to external group information. New in version 1.2: information about other ML-related groups (AOL, Genie & USENET); explicit address for feedback. New in version 1.1: information about release form; way of getting release form; 'new in ...' list. 1. What is this list anyhow? ---------------------------- This is a mailing list for discussion of the works of Mercedes Lackey, including both her fantasy and non-fantasy work, either solo or in collaboration with other authors. It is currently unmoderated. 2. How do I subscribe to the list? ---------------------------------- Send a mail message to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk with subject blank and message body SUBSCRIBE MERCEDES-LACKEY your name If you have problems with this, contact the list owner (see below). 3. How do I unsubscribe to the list? ------------------------------------ Send a mail message to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk with subject blank and message body UNSUBSCRIBE MERCEDES-LACKEY Again, if you have problems with this, contact the list owner. 4. 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To return to normal mail from either of them, use the message body SET MERCEDES-LACKEY MAIL ACK instead.) If you will be absent for some time, you may wish to consider the POSTPONE setting. This is like NOMAIL for lists run under Listserv; you remain subscribed to the list, but do not receive mail from it until you specifically request to start receiving mail again. To do this, send mail to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk with message body SET MERCEDES-LACKEY MAIL POSTPONE - to cancel it, use one of the options above (ACK, NOACK, DIGEST). Do not forget the 'MAIL' part of the command - it won't work without it. 6. I've written this really great story in one of Misty's universes. Should --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I post it to the list? ----------------------- No, please don't. Reliable information (Judith Louvis who runs Queen's Own, the offline Misty fan club), indicates that you MUST get permission from Misty, in writing, before writing fan fiction in Misty's universe(s). Since I, as list owner, have no way to verify that you have received such permission, a decision has been taken not to allow posting of stories on the list. What you do between yourselves is, of course, entirely up to you. The release, however, is not valid for online fiction, only for printed fiction. As far as I am aware (as of 6th July '94) there is no way of getting permission to release fiction in Misty's world(s) online. A copy of the release for printed work is available from the listowner on request (private email; please don't post requests to the list). 7. Who is the list owner, anyway? --------------------------------- All problems, or queries about the running of the list, should be directed at Melanie Dymond Harper; mel-+AT+-herald.co.uk -or- mel-+AT+-servalan.demon.co.uk The second address should only be used if mail to the first address does not get a reply (this most likely means either the site is down for some reason or that I'm away - if the latter, the second address probably won't help either). Do _not_ send problems and such to the list at large. If it's something I've done, or not done, they won't be able to help you! I will try to announce any absences of mine in advance, so that the list members know if problems are likely not to be solved quickly. Any feedback on this post cheerfully received at mel-+AT+-herald.co.uk or mel-+AT+-servalan.demon.co.uk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (end part 1 of 5) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:14:47 -0500 (CDT) From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: About Florian's ID Message-ID: <199610011314.AA225495687-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> > With all the discussion of trying to figure out who Florian's human form is, > has anyone considered the possibility that it's NOT anyone that we know, and > that the description was included just so, in 2 or 3 books time, when we > meet a Herald who meets that description we will know that it's the > reincarnated Florian? I toyed with the idea that we haven't seen Florian's human form yet, but something about his human desription sounds way too familiar. And, Florian's sister's name is Idry (SR). That's a bit of a giveaway, but it also raises the question of whether or not non-Heralds can be reincarnated into Companions. If that is possible, then Florian could be Idra's brother Stefanson, but I can't find a physical description of him. Any thoughts? BTW, some advice for the college applicants....get everything ready and submitted early! I currently work in an admissions office, and things get pretty messy when we have to hold up processing or a decesion because info is missing. Then the applicants get all frustrated because they don;t know where they stand. Just a helpful hint to avoid unncessary stress. Nina Goddess of Passwords, One-Liners and Sarcasm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 09:57:47 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Morality Message-ID: <01OCT96.10760254.0115.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Kerry, I happen to agree with you completely -- does that make me a radical moderate, too? I didn't get into that whole side of things because, well, this is off-topic and I was trying to be terse My feelings on those grey issues you mentioned is that Truth is eternal, but humans are not gods, and we are not perfect. As an example, take the old saw about killing one person to cure cancer or what have you. I think it's always immoral to kill. BUT, sometimes it may be the best of many bad options. Yes, in such a situation, I'd probably kill the guy. I'd probably kill in self-defense. But the thing is, I don't feel like that makes it right. Necessary, maybe, and sometimes we do things that we find unpalatable because of necessity. I think the important thing is to make all your choices with a right heart, and to do the best you can, and to honor yourself when you do well and forgive yourself when you fail. What I don't like at all is the idea, and you find this a lot in high fantasy, Misty being one of the worst offenders, that if something is necessary, it's fine and dandy. For example. It may have been perfectly necessary to set mages on fire, or for Dirk to assassinate someone. That's a choice that good people made, feeling that it was the best possible choice in the situation, and I respect that decision. However, the characters and the author give out this feeling that it's perfectly fine to do things like that because, hey, they're bad and we had no choice. I'd like to see someone admit that yes, setting people on fire is a Bad Thing, but so was letting them live in that situation, and even a Herald can find herself in an untenable situation sometimes and just make the best she can of it. I hate it when characters get smug about murder because the victim was evil, so it's okay. Again, though, I understand that just because someone knows right from wrong does not mean there will always be an easy answer to every question. There is *rarely* an easy answer to anything, at least in my experience. In fact, I find it awfully difficult to condemn people, since I know how often I personally fall short of what's right -- most of the time, it feels like. That's why I got so upset about the whole 'Lendel argument (and I really was upset, extremely) -- everyone just does the best they can, including me, including 'Lendel, and it really bothers me to punish or condemn someone for trying and failing to do what's right. I'll be glad to condemn someone for not trying, but not for failing. Hopefully this makes me sound a little more human I was in a very bold and decisive mood when I wrote the last post, so I framed it in very solid terms. Kerry filled out the philosophy nicely, and I thank him for it. And on the related topic of free-will and destiny. My personal feeling is that we all have a destiny, but we choose whether or not to live up to it. Vanyel may have been "destined" to die out there, but he *could* have given in to Leareth, or just not gone. He could have lived to a ripe old age with his lover, if he had so chosen. But instead, he chose to fulfill his destiny. I don't know, I'm an odd bird on this destiny issue. I have a serious Problem With Authority (ask my roommate), and I *hate* being told what to do. Just hate it. On the other hand, I believe strongly in duty. If I'd been Elspeth, I would not have been thrilled to be married off politically, but I would have done it, if it had been a choice between my feelings on the matter and Valdemar's safety. Destiny seems like an endpoint to me, and free will lies in the process. Your destiny is to do or be X, and how you get there, or whether you get there, is yours to figure out. Just MO. HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu "The madness of demons is rage -- the madness of angels, hope." --*The Dragon & the Unicorn* A.A. Attanasio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:01:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Morgana To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Florian and stuff. Message-ID: Okay... my .002 cents worth. I think that Florian is gonna be introduced in the next book or so... maybe as Elspeths' and Darkwinds' kid? and that we haven't meet him yet. Hm.... another 'wise eyes' one, like Talia? Okay. So this post was only about Florian. Sue me. ;P Morgana, Goddess of Things Unseen and depressed student of the hectic lifestyle ** Except for the boy in the belfry he's crazy, he's throwing himself down from the top of the tower like a hunchback in heaven He's ringing the bells in the church for the last half an hour. He sounds like he's missing something or someone that he knows he can't have now, and if he isn't I certainly am. ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:31:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jake To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Witchcraft / Life's Flame Message-ID: <199610011531.LAA27273-+AT+-orion.webspan.net> Kerry wrote: >Caveat: It occurred to me that the Wiccan/Pagan religions don't quite fit >into this partition, given that (as I understand it), the practitioner >has quite a close relationship with their Goddess/deity, but at the same >time the circle structure is also quite ritualized. (NB: I'm not Pagan >per se, simply an interested observer so Jake & Co please correct any >misunderstandings on my part). :) *stepping behind lectern* Actually, Kerry, it depends upon what aspect of the Wiccan/Pagan religions you look at. There are about a score of traditions in Witchcraft alone, and some are really not that heavy into ritual, and some are. But yes, your caveat is true in most cases; the Circle structure IS ritualized; very ritualized; and the relationship between the Lord and Lady and the practitioner is... quite close. *grin* (Too close for some people out there... I saw a book the other day called EROTIC DREAMING WITH THE GODDESS. Talk about being CLOSE to your deity!) ===== All right. I FINALLY (after three weeks.. argh!) finished listening to Life's Flame, and I suggest it OVER Wanderlust and Midsummer. Even though it's just Heather Alexander with guitar and fiddle, still, it is so amazingly moving and emotional that it tops over her other work. STILL looking for a copy of Phoenyx: Keepers of the Flame, though, for people who have a copy out there... Blessed Be Jake Jake Adamo (rynath-+AT+-webspan.net) Mercedes Lackey Information FAQ Administrator Bard Champion of the Ladies in Green Warriors do stupid things in battle so philosophers and bards and loremasters can do wise things in times of peace. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:22:15 -0400 From: Wintershard To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Morality Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Hth. wrote: > My feelings on those grey issues you mentioned is that Truth is eternal, > but humans are not gods, and we are not perfect. As an example, take > the old saw about killing one person to cure cancer or what have you. I > think it's always immoral to kill. BUT, sometimes it may be the best of > many bad options. Yes, in such a situation, I'd probably kill the guy. > I'd probably kill in self-defense. But the thing is, I don't feel like > that makes it right. Necessary, maybe, and sometimes we do things that > we find unpalatable because of necessity. IMO, I think there are not that many grey issues between right and wrong. Sure, there are a few, but not many. Take your example of self-defense. That's not a time where you actually have a choice, is it? We're not talking of him killing you because you have done something horrendous, but just him attacking you. Now, it's very true that I can feel sorry for myself for being attacked, but why should I feel sorry for him if he was the one trying to kill me, and I stopped him? What of killing one person to save the world from cancer or the like? I have to say that it is downright wrong. The world isn't a story where such things occur. There is no such thing as someone fated to destroy a nation or etc. We in the real world have other options. Isolating that person from the rest of the world, finding a way to cure him. If we were to kill a person for that, why not kill them for having too red of hair? It's wrong, that's why. Besides, think of how many people have helped the world advance, even though they have problems. You may even know some. Hell, you may know a lot. They have every right to this world that we do, and every right to the chances that we do. Re killing Hitler or the like. I don't regard such human beings as people. Any one who will kill thousands, or have them killed for the sake of destroying them can't be allowed the same privileges as the rest of us. They're animals with human bodies, and leeches for minds. They should be treated as such until they change their ways. Whoa--I better lay off the coffee for a while, I'm starting to scare myself ;) ObMisty:What if Misty said that Van vaguely remembered Florian so that she could set up another book in his time, kinda like reverse history? Calming down after his caffeine high (hopefully), Wintershard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:11:07 -0700 (MST) From: mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Witchcraft/ Magical systems in Valdemar/ Ian McDonald/ Parody snippet. Message-ID: <199610011811.LAA14715-+AT+-primenet.com> At 04:48 PM 10/1/96 +0100, Jake wrote: But yes, your caveat is true in most cases; the >Circle structure IS ritualized; very ritualized; I can't recall for the life of me *where* I read it, but this quote just came to mind. "Every circle is the same, it's what goes on in them that makes the difference." (Now that I think of it, it sounds amost like a bumper sticker...) I know of ways to cast a circle that take at least half an hour, full of ritualistic detail, and poetic appeals to the deities and elements. And I know of ways to do it that take almost no time at all. Time really isn't the important thing, it's what kind of energy you're putting into it. Some people need long, involved rituals to feel like they've connected with the earth, and some people just need a place and their mind. Neither way is better than the other, it's just personalized. and the relationship >between the Lord and Lady and the practitioner is... quite close. *grin* >(Too close for some people out there... I saw a book the other day called >EROTIC DREAMING WITH THE GODDESS. Talk about being CLOSE to your deity!) *grin* I can't resist saying this... It's a very good book. Sirona Knight has an interesting slant on things. The title sounds...interesting, but the book isn't just about that. *grin* Aren't I just a wealth of useless information? ObMisty: While there are a few (not many believe it or not) elements of the Craft in Valdemar, there is never any mention of the people gathering on full moons and casting circles. Also, someone pointed out that the Shin'a'in shamans don't really seem to practice ritualistic shamanic magic(k). That puzzled me. If they are not supposed to use Mage-gift...*shrug* It seems to me that in Velgarth magick comes from *outside* the mage. The power to manipulate it comes from within them, but not the actual magic. And there also appears to be only *one* type of magic. Not ways to use it, which vary widely, but even the Hedge-witches don't appear to practice any kind of magic that I know. Anyone else's observations on this? For those of you with an interest in the darker side of Faeryland, try _King of Morning, Queen of Day_ by Ian McDonald (No, not our Ian. *grin* Although I did go to his website to check the spelling of his name...) It's written in three parts, each in a different style, and about a different person, and I was impressed by how well he pulled it off. Very interesting folklorish elements. And besides...I love it when someone writes about that grey area...not everyone uses the "Seelie=good Unseelie=bad" copout...*grin* Then again, I've always been strange. Back into the civics book, Pages left to read. The homework never goes away, No matter how you plead. Stuck here in the middle, Of this wretched senior year. And all the minutes of my day, Are suddenly quite dear... Of three things be fearful, The big guy that blocks your path, That your souffle falls in Home Ec, And that horrid thing called Math! Jake, you're infectious. STOP IT! *grin* 'Reesa _____Lady 'Reesa_____mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com______ Her personal theory was that one father could do more to ruin a child's life than every mother in existence. She realized she was not entirely without bias on this matter, but that was alright; she blamed her father. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ http://members.tripod.com/~LadyReesa/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Magewar Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Shaun Rodger wrote: > Can anyone tell me how to get onto the Magewar list? My mailbox crashed and > I've lost most of my old stuff. . . . Thanks, There have been enough request for this that I will post this reminder to the list. I have a link on my home page (Green Silences "http://www.udel.edu/kenny/green.silences.html") to my (now moribund) archive of the summer Magewar. It has all the info you need to subscribe to the list, including a mailto link for the listserver. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:51:47 -0400 From: ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid:/Religious freaks/An'sesha Message-ID: <961001145146_534535235-+AT+-emout10.mail.aol.com> I aggree with Julie, religious freaks are just that - freaks! I can't stand 'em either, but unfortunately I have a couple of friends who are like that. You know, they go to church, read the bible, and just because they believe something everyone else should too! Umm, excuse me but I don't seem to recall anyone dying and naming them God. What the heck makes them so bloody perfect? Anyway, religion is not something I discuss with those particular friends. But, I do have a point besides that. I wanted to say that, in my own personal view, I see all gods as being one. And that god appeared to the peoples of the world in whatever form was most acceptable to them *at the time*. Therefore He/She/It appeared to the Jews as a He, the Britons as both He and She, and so on. The point is, the holy books reflect the culture of the land, and the time period, and (hate to say it) the personal beliefs of the author. Therefore all those ridiculous rules and beliefs, about women being the source of all evil, homosexuality, witches, and all that crap, Cannot be applied to the present. It just isn't the same world that it was then. Oh, and BTW, that bit in the bible about "Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live" ? Well, it just so happens that that was changed by James VI of Scotland, the 1 of England, after some witches (who probably weren't real witches anyway) tried to kill him. So, that was not the original statement. It was changed. Think about it, if that was changed, what else could have been? All these arguements the freaks use that they think are so valid, and absolutely written in stone, could very well have been faked. If anyone wants to know what the original statement was, before it was changed to say Witch, let me know and I'll look it up. Sorry 'bout my own bit of ranting. Anyway, here's something a bit more on topic. SB SPOILER BELOW Okay, it just occurred to me that with the loss of nodes and leylines, that's most likely going to cause Blood Magic to be used much more frequently. Could cause some nasty problems. (wow, I actually managed something that hasn't been written about yet!) Blessed Be, NightShade aka ShadowJaz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:43:00 -0500 (CDT) From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK Subject: questions, questions Message-ID: <961001144300.22a61480-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu> Hey! I'm new, (that means you have to be nece to me). I just have a few questions. #1 - what is an obmisty? #2 - wht is a braid? Probably the answers are as obvious as what a spoiler is (it only took me 20 messages to figure that one out!) As to ages that read Misty, I'm old and my 9 year old daughter loves Talia and Kory too. On the question of whether I'd go live in a fantasy universe- Like most people said, it would depend on who and what I could take with me. But What if that fantasy universe were here e.g. LA Elves, Masquerade.. would you embrace them or freak out thinking you were going insane? On esca[os, - Without RPGing and SF and Fantasy, I think both my husband and I would have gone stark raving bug nuts by now (or else have 16 kids) When you're broke and jobless, RPGing is great entertainment (we tried other free entertainment but we ended up with 5 kids). Even now with him in Law school, escapism in its various forms is a way to break from being too logical all the time and its still cheap entertainment! Oh, question #3 - no one seems to talk about her urban fantasy stuff much is there another place for discussing that? Thanks for your ears (eyes?), I promise to send them back when I'm done. Tiffanie Domestic Goddess and general manager of the Zoo ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 853 *********************************