MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 857

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Tell me what happens!!!!
	by Amy Trivitt <atrivitt-+AT+-nmt.edu>
  2) Re: movie casting
	by Jaguar <rholsen-+AT+-gateway.us.sidwell.edu>
  3) Hi folks
	by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu
  4) Fluff:Going to Velgarth/Ladies of the Pink Wand
	by LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com
  5) Braid: Religion
	by Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
  6) Re: Fluff:Going to Velgarth/Ladies of the Pink Wand
	by Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
  7) Re: Morality/Dirk/Valdemar Scholarships
	by jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin)
  8) 
	by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu
  9) Abrev. List
	by chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:25:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Amy Trivitt <atrivitt-+AT+-nmt.edu>
To: Mercedes Lackey Digest <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Tell me what happens!!!!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.961002202212.12941B-100000-+AT+-yellow>

Can someone tell me what Storm Breaking is about?  I haven't read it yet
but I want NO  make that NEED to know what happens.

Thanks

Amy 
atrivitt-+AT+-nmt.edu


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:26:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jaguar <rholsen-+AT+-gateway.us.sidwell.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: movie casting
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.961002222436.9198B-100000-+AT+-gateway.us.sidwell.edu>

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, E. Angell wrote:

> How 'bout Michael Wincott? He's the Sheriff's deputy (the one that gets
> run thru by the sheriff) in Prince of Thieves.  (he's rochefort in 3
> musketeers as well)
> Or was that who you meant?
> 
	D'oh! That'll teach me to read all my mail before I post! <gryn, 
sheep and run>
	BTW, I still have the Master Cast List and the voting form around 
somewhere. Shall I distribute them again?

--------------------------------- JAGUAR --------------------------------------
Leader of the Cat People           "... intimidating. Ex-marine, I understand."
Goddess of Large Hunter Cats       "I'm an ex-mercenary, I never intimidated
Chronicler of the Mage Wars         anyone. I killed them." <grin>
Lady in Green 		       		-- Kermit, KF:tLC
-----MageWar Archives: http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen/magewar/archives.html---


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:39:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu
To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK
Subject: Hi folks
Message-ID: <961002223907.22a5e560-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu>

Hello Folk of the Misty list!

I'm New (Like a baby or the breath you are almost ready to take) too and just happen to be married to Tiffanie the New as well.  We share my TU account and if the folks at the law school knew what I used it for...we could have a heck of a 
fight over it where they claimed, and I claimed..... etc.   Uh, I guess I 
would say I am more combative than my lovely spouse.  I won't OB Misty here
since I got real misty stuff to ask/jaw on and I am not sure I am ready to have an OBE Misty any way.
(laugh and weg and really weg)
Tif was a vietnamese linguist and I a chinese linguist in somebody's service 
we got five lovely (read intelligent lively funloving destructive) children.
I am Christian, but have studied eastern religions and religous practices
(not always the same...) and have benn fortunate to be included in a Wiccan
Circle at one point for about a year (not at one time....weg...) and would like to say I cringed a bit at one of the lovely posts I read herein (Lawyer talk)
and am glad some good folks set the record on-line (strait is perhaps at
best a term of art in relation to a spiritual belief....especially one with
a penchant for Circles..... heh heh heh..... weg.   (thanks for that tidbit
of language Kimberleeeeee!) but would also like to suggest (probably quite
uselessly) that people from all walks of life, AGES, educational background
and other appreciable diversity post here snd everyone was nice...but I hope
this is a place where understanding rules...  (seems to be, thats why I like
it and am posting!)  (gee, duh new guy... we thought you were just practicing
your (awful) typing......)   ;)

If I were to have the opportunity to go to a place like Valdemar (testimonial
here, I've read about Tarma, and Kethry, and Kerowyn, and heard the song about
Kerowyn, and read about 30 pages of the first Talia book ..... sorry) If! I
could take my family with me, (and yes assuming they would go) I'd probably
go.  I am studying to become a great world class negotiator, mediator and
dispute settler, but have to face the reality that I would probably be more
comfortable weilding a sword, book, and a song.  I have gotten WIDER with
age (30 distinct ones) but I have no doubt that I'd either get chosen (If I 
couldn't out run them.... to lawful for me.... note the lawyer thing.....)
or assess the situation, find out maximum/safety positions for my family,
grab a ley line and lite out (weg) for the hawkbrothers.  I like 

REALISTICALLY, I would probably do OK there.  I take physical, spiritual
and social initiative easier than economic initiative, and would like to have
the chance to breath cleaner air in a place where POSSIBILITY is more easily
touched.  As for Magic.... it is outside and inside ..of us all. Bet ya 
if the challenge touched some of those creative minds out there you would 
sing and play better and find more ways into this college place than you give
yourselves credit for......

IF ANYONE GETS BORED, SKIP IT ALL AND PLEASE FORGIVE...FORGIVE..

(My lovely spousal unit says I should insert here that "My Ladies (and gents)
I am but an Airhead"........ heh heh heh....I've read ALL of those!

I must regretfully refrain from any existing opportunity to join the ladies
of the pink wand society.... but would like to reserve the option to engender
(cute word..neh?) a similiar but perhaps more dangerous society who might
delight, win or lose (both = gain in this case) to engage Tarma in a friendly
bout with blades, and enjoy, with humor and joy aching heart teasing her
unrepentantly about that (*^*&%&^$&%$%$#$# bard's song......  weg    as I ran
of course......   weg

I wouldn't mind a shot or two at the Karsite priests.  I don't think much of the
strategic options oft exercised by modern and historical governments of
nailing the populace at large in such (aren't they aweful, non human (like
us who are human) sorts of places.  Still, I believe that the society in 
Valdemar has? a great deal of value (besides that of plain old human life and
individual worth) to be preserved.  Governments who do anything good for their
people as a group in the presenting opportunities department are so hard to
find in fantasy or reality (do they differ we wonder precious..opp's 'nother
book).

Yes, dear, it is a long post isn't it....?  weg

Oh, by the way, (spousal tif unit says this is BTW) oops, I do so truely
appologize....

BTW the linguists mentions were due to Cen's Dept. as appears in his sig....
(
See! I braid right in the same message/thought!

Brave NightShade (Belledonna or Monkshood?  weg), Cat\/\/oman, and Jake.  
What we don't know will, undoubtedly, in the long run, hurts us and all we
love.  I would also suggest "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler and
a book by Starhawk (bet the book store comps can find that nom....), as well 
as either talking to Wiccan folk, or just finding a place where you can sit
quietly and LISTEN to the earth and perhaps touch her without too much 
interference .....(Maybe good for any of us?) to understand a bit about
Wicca.  My input.

Honour.... If you need it you'll know what it is.  If you heed yourself
from deep inside to the doing of it I betcha you gain from it.

Yesh... Do I sound like a mystichead or what!

Everyone feel like ya know me yet?!  Here goes! 

(Ya all did say ta put it all in one message.......   weg)

Tif is on me frequently to read the Vanyel books, and I don't really know
wy I don't.  Maybe I have an inside problem identifying with a non-hetero
hero.  Guess that lets me a tiny little bit into the lives of some of the non-hetero folks around.....  

Since I have said that, though, I would like to say that I REALLY understand
and can value self protection, and cede it's utility and virtual necessity
at times, but closets only grow mushrooms I would think.  Oh, PS, if you
need/want/orjust feel like flaming me please do. I'm not being facetious,
but a lot can get learned in a short time if real things get expressed.
Thus I like getting hit by fists on occasion and sticks.... and battering
my head against brick etc. walls.  it really lets reality in through the
little holes in my assumptions about life that they make.  Please, anybody
who feels like it fire away.  If I'm felt to be too intense, I will
tone it down....... but, hey, Darn it, as I am sure you are aware, there are
some really cool sounding people and ideas on this list!

Anyone with a different view or some way of helping me access Vanyel a bit
more...I would love it.  I don't tolerate (leaving out time constraints and
the sheer level of tolerance and resiliency of my spirit as limits) any
kind of non-understanding in myself.  I like shadows, but only when the sun
gous behind something... not inside of me.  Can whup em all with a sword, 
so sometimes gotta go out on a limb and take a chance....

Has anyone on this list done anything with looking at magical systems in
Misty's varying series in a comparative way?  I LOVE the Di Tregarde books,
and always respected Misty for being able to put that feel to her magic
when the magic of an Adept or a hawkbrother feels so different.  Elf magic
in her books seems yet again different and I wonder if there is a place they
touch and show a "how does Misty Lackey see magic" place.  Wondering.

I guess another reason I am not reading the Vanyel books is that all the
"magic" gets cut out at the end.  I am not sure I could stand to touch such
delightful ways of being, even in a book, and have to suffer them cut off at the end.

As to drugs vice morals (does a post here REALLY always mean to invite
comment in a public forum?) (for the purpose of discussion hopefully) 
there sure seems to be some of that in the Urban Elves stuff.  The king,
addicted to caffiene..... poignant, not real complex, but simple is often
powerful I thought.  (Maybe the guy was a Prince?) Can we fault the elves
for their addiction when we/I sense the lure of apathy's maw everyday
right there between the laughter and sorrow ourselves/myself.  I guess,
a lot of what I see written in Misty's books ins't really complex, but darn
it it feels ALIVE and good and real.  It makes me want to think and wonder
and gives me ways to connect to her worlds....and see them in my own.
It ain't Aristotle's "Physics" or David Hume or Emmanuel Kant (tying
into the the Johnny, and beleagured philosophy students out there) and
thank any power ya please for it says I!  Sometimes I need a bottle (or
something more soft but similiar ... weg) when the spirit has to shake of
the tension i let it get into in the world.  I've always found Misty
Lackey's works were that for me, + a cool place to re-ignite my imaginative
faculties to the point where old Hope was ready to spring as a spring 
eternal to the old (widening) chest again.....and drag my lazy mind up
with it.

Thanks for lettin me post Y'all.  

Blessed be and merry start
and merry meet and merry part!

Live long and prosper!

See ya!

Tim

(Any claims relating to diefication will, of course be channelled (heh) 
to the proper authority for approval (oops deification heh) and signature.
All resemblances or inferences to anyone living or dead or etc. in this
post should not be construed as libelous and are completely (sure buddy)
coincidental. Please feel free to copy this material in any way, beat it
to an annoyed or enraged death or use as a paper product of your choice...

Weg.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:37:18 -0400
From: LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Fluff:Going to Velgarth/Ladies of the Pink Wand
Message-ID: <961003003717_535768332-+AT+-emout18.mail.aol.com>

The Lilac Fairy, the Misty list's resident fairy godmother, sends greetings
all the newcomers.

----------------- 

Suncat said:

>>On the subject of the Blue Swordsworn, I just reread the passage 
where they are mentioned.  They are sworn to both the crone and the warrior,
and the temple in Kata'shin'a'in is the ONLY place where they can be found.
 Their purpose is to guard knowledge.<<

Cool. I knew there must be a place for a librarian in Velgarth. Okay, here's
one person who WOULD go if offered the chance. If I could take my cats. And
if the Blue Swordsworn didn't want me, I could always be a librarian at the
Collegium. Oh yeah, and my B.A. is in theatrical costume design. As a side
job I could design clothes for Firesong. We'd have to have lots of
fittings...

------------------------------
On Tue, 01 Oct 1996 The Astonishingly Articulate Heather wrote:

<<If you want Vanyel's body, you can join the Ladies of the Pink Wand --
unless you're a man (which I gather you're not), because Cennydd is the only
man, AFAIK, they've let in the club yet.  He's kinda the auxiliary.  Not to
be confused with the artillery, though he can be kind of a bitch --kidding,
Cen!  Just kidding!<<

As the Founder and Honorary ChairFairy of the Ladies of the Pink Wand, the
Lilac Fairy would like to point out that Cennydd, the ever elegant and
tasteful Mage of Green Silences is, in fact, not actually a Lady (whether or
not he is a gentleman is another matter); he is one of our Objects of
Unrequited Love/Lust, along with Vanyel, Firesong, and many others. Currently
our only male member is Shadow Lover, who is our Champion, Guardian of Our
Virtue and Comforter of Our Broken Hearts.

At the moment, the usually adorable Cennydd is not in favor with the Lilac
Fairy, as he has apparently abandoned us for Real Life (TM, patent pending).
If he's going to act all adult and responsible... The Lilac Fairy has been
reading one of Lady Wilde's collections of Irish folklore, and has come to
realize that she's been entirely too friendly and easy going- fairies are
supposed to be capricious and malicious. So the Lilac Fairy is going to
practice on Cen. It's so much fun yanking his chain. <insert wicked snicker
here> 

---------------------------------

The Lilac Fairy
Lady of the Pink Wand

AKA
Lee Cox, who is doing the Frabjous Fairy Flitter* because she just got
offered a FULL TIME librarian position at:
The San Francisco Performing Arts Library & Museum (SF PALM)


*the Frabjous Fairy Flitter is much like the Happy Hampster Hop, only most of
it is done in mid-air, so you must have wings or other means of leviation.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 00:45:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Braid: Religion
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.961001142047.2525D-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Kerry Mealing wrote:

[snip of Heather]
> Hmmm, some might make the point that religion is supposed to be about
> philosophy & ethics, and the worship of the focal point of the religion.
> The more present & hands-on, the focal point (deity, whatever) of the
> religion, the less ritualistic one might expect the religion to be. 
> In some views, Christianity, for example (as I understand it) is ideally 
> supposed to be about the individual's relationship with God and many of 
> the rituals surrounding it seem to have arisen from the religious 
> institution. Buddism, Taoism for example, don't have the religious 
> institutions. 

Kerry, not to be obnoxious or anything *looks around innocently "Who
me?"*, but have you really studied Buddhist and Taoist practice?  Not the
idealized religion that people in Religious Studies look at, but the
actual praxis that an anthropologist would look at?  Both Buddhism and
Taoism have extremely ritualistic patterns of social behaviour as part of
their praxis.  (BTW, let me state that I am not necessarily disagreeing
with your general thesis; I will show later that the actual praxis of
Buddhism and Taoism can be accounted for by your thesis, given a few
assumptions).  

Okay, to start with, Taoism is a very organized relgion in its popular
form.  This is the religious background that is the fount of the
stereotypical Chinese obsession with numbering and list (after Taoism
blended with Confucianism, things got much more pronounced, but the trend
was already present in Taoism).  There are a large number of rituals in
this religion.  Among other things, most of the ritual magic in the
Chinese tradition is based on Taoism.  BTW, one thing to remember is that
Taoism is truly a religion (as opposed to a philosophy), since it has
(a multitude of) divine beings that are worship as part of the religious
praxis.

Buddhism, despite being a philosophy, is very similar to Taoism in a
number of ways.  Primarily, there is the fact that Buddhist praxis is
also very ritualized.  Particularly outside India, Buddhism developed in
very hierarchical lines, with a great deal of attendant ritual and
ceremony.  There are many "religious" holy days, each with its own sort of
observances and rituals.  In addition, as with Taoism, Buddhism developed
a monastic tradition, which led to a whole set of different rituals for
use in these special communities.

However, that being said, it is still possible to connect Buddhism,
Taoism, and Christianity with your general thesis.  In general, I would
perhaps say that the distinction you are making is not between religion
with a close, personal deity and religion with a distant, impersonal one.
Rather you seem to be distinguishing between religion and faith.  Faith is
the close, personal relationship between the individual and the deity.
Religion is the organized social behavior of a community (of faith).
Naturally, as with all social behavior, we would expect to see a the same
characteristics in religious praxis that we would see in any other social
behavior.  It will be organized, conventional, and heirarchical.  By this,
I mean that the behavior of members of a Religion will not be random or
idiosyncratic (in general).  Rather, they will be organized and governed
by a series of conventions, or agreed-upon standards.  Religion will also
involve a division of the community into different levels of prestige,
each level with its own relative "value" and access to power.  Religion,
as one of the largest scale, most intensely experienced social behaviors,
would be predicted to have fairly strong (even extreme) versions of these
characteristics.

However, since Faith is an individual, personal relationship, we would not
expect it to have the same characteristics as Religion.  This is not to
say that it couldn't, but it certainly doesn't have to be ritualistic or
conventional.  And given that it is individual, it certainly couldn't be
heirarchical (you need a community for "heirarchy" to have any meaning).  

Let us assume then, that Faith-inspired behavior will not generally be as
ritualized as Religion-inspired behavior.  Of course, what we see in real
life religions is that the more central your faith is in your spiritual
life, the less you are going to be concerned with religion.  In
Christianity, one of the significant facts that can be seen when looking
at different denominations is that those which emphasize a personal,
direct relationship with their deity are also less likely to have a large
body of conventional rituals, although there are always a few.  In Taoism,
and Buddhism, a slightly different phenomenon can be seen.  In these
religions (which *are* less "community" oriented in general than Xianity),
there is variation on an individual basis, with "immortals" and "saints"
(the practitioners who are centered in faith) showing the least amount of
attention to conventions and rituals.  This same pattern can also be said
to hold in Xianity for the saints (in those denominations that have them)
who are generally shown as iconoclastic (this is a general pattern, and
there are certainly a number of exceptions).  

> It just seems as if the closer the religious focus & the
> individual are, the less need there is for an institution to formalize
> that relationship and the fewer rituals surround and formalize the 
> relationship.

So, I think that this general thesis fits very well with my elaborated
discussion.  Comments?  Flames?  Lightning bolts from on high? =)

> Taboos and the like are often misunderstood remnants of social practices
> rather than religious ones (see, eg, the Old Testament's cleanliness taboos,
> and its instructions against mold and the like).

Oddly enough, the origin of the term taboo (Polynesian: tabu) is a
"religious" term, and much of the anthropological study of taboo has shown
that spirituality and religion are behind most of the widely found taboos.
Generally, the original meaning of tabu was a rule that was designed to
protect people from events, places, and activities which would expose them
to spiritual forces that were inimical, too powerful, or in some other way
dangerous.  Thus, the tabus surrounding women and menstruation (found
almost universally in human cultures) are seen as a way of protecting men
from the excessively powerful forces that are accessed by women in
procreation.  Death tabu are designed to protect people from harm from
inimical ghosts, and the power represented by death, etc.  

By extension, tabu has also come to be used for rules in a culture which
are designed to regulate or limit access to any kind of (potentially
dangerous) power.  Hmmm.  Can you tell that I teach about tabu (in
language) and that my work on the subject is one of the things that got me
through my comprehensive exams?  I'll shut up now.

> universal moral answer? Some religions are completely passivist. Some 

Umm.  I just have to ask, do you mean "pacifistic" or "passivist"?  They
are different things and I can't really tell which you mean, but I have
never heard of Xianity being "passivist."  This is a for real, serious
question, not just me being picky.  I think.  Maybe?  Help!

> What about euthenasia? Of the terminally ill. Of the clinically brain-dead?
> The possibly-eternally-comatose?

I can answer that.  My mother and I have a pact that if the other is ever
in this sitch as the veggie, the other will do whatever they reasonably
can to see that plug is pulled.

-----EOM

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Jake wrote:
> One of the reasons, Mat.  Some of us talk not about her urban stuff
> because it's BAD. *grin* SERRAted Edge?  Ick ick ICK!!

And as everyone should know by now, I can't keep my disdain for the Di
books under wraps.  Not that this should stop anyone from discussing it,
but my discussions usually end up centering around why the Di books are
the anti-christ of the Misty universe.  Oh well.

> *resisting the urge to jump in and throw out another definition of
> WITCHCRAFT (which is what Wicca is... saying it's a type of Witchcraft
> is like saying an automobile is a type of car).*  The one thing in the
> pagan movement people will discover is that if you have 10 pagans, you
> have 10 different interperetations of what the religion is.

Ummm.  If this is true, then how can you make such a blanket statement
that witchcraft=wicca?  It doesn't really.  There are any number of things
which are legitimately called witchcraft that I would most strenously
object to calling wicca.  Just for the most obvious one, satanic
witchcraft is quite legitimately called witchcraft (it certainly has a
longer history under the name than modern Wicca), but I would not hesitate
to flame someone unmercifully if they were so unwise as to suggest that
Wiccans were Satanists in my presence.  Similarly, the practice of "black  
magic" among the Navajo (and many other Native American peoples) is called
witchcraft in English, but it certainly isn't Wicca.  Anyway, I would say
that the statement "Wicca is a type of witchcraft" is actually analogous
to saying "a Porsche is a kind of car."  Saying that "Satanism is a type
of witchcraft" is like saying "a Pinto (or maybe a Yugo?) is a kind of
car."  In one case you are giving an example of a good item of a
general type, and in the other you are giving an example of an evil one.
=)

May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Mage of the Green Silences.

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 01:12:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Fluff:Going to Velgarth/Ladies of the Pink Wand
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.961003005321.14647F-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996 LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com wrote:

> At the moment, the usually adorable Cennydd is not in favor with the Lilac
> Fairy, as he has apparently abandoned us for Real Life (TM, patent pending).
> If he's going to act all adult and responsible... The Lilac Fairy has been
> reading one of Lady Wilde's collections of Irish folklore, and has come to
> realize that she's been entirely too friendly and easy going- fairies are
> supposed to be capricious and malicious. So the Lilac Fairy is going to
> practice on Cen. It's so much fun yanking his chain. <insert wicked snicker
> here> 

Ma chere fee, I would not suggest it.  For one thing, I don't wear chains
(well, okay, on special occasions with one or two dear, dear friends, but
not in the usual course of events).  As for being malicious, why would you
feel the need. As I stated in my past missive announcing my (now clearly
pointless) attempt to flee into lurkerdom, I would never even consider
abandoning my beloved ladies.  However, I must admit that reality (such as
it ever is around me) has been making its sordid little demands upon my
resources (vast though they may be).  I have been advising my dear friend
and real life "fairied wife" on the appropriate fashion accoutrements
necessary to be a fabulous queen on Halloe'en (I myself do not do drag,
but am nevertheless a profoundly gifted arbiter of style *and* camp).  In
addition, I have been fighting a desperate battle to keep my poor
benighted students from too utterly tasteless (failing a 101 course would
be just tacky!)

Anyway, if you wish to be so fickle and cruel as to turn on me at this
point, I have one thing to say:  "Uh-uh, Miss Thang, don't even go there.
Don't make me read you!" =)

> Lee Cox, who is doing the Frabjous Fairy Flitter* because she just got
> offered a FULL TIME librarian position at:
> The San Francisco Performing Arts Library & Museum (SF PALM)

Yay!!!!!  Congratulations!  *The Mage is so happy for his beloved Fee des
Lilas that he invents, in her honor, the Ecstatic Ecdysiast Ebullition*!

*The Ecstatic Ecdysiast Ebullition can best be thought of as a Happy
Hamster Hop, done to the final portion of Ravel's Bolero, and involving
progressively fewer sartorial distractions. <wEg>

May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Mage of the Green Silences.

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 01:11:11 -0400
From: jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Morality/Dirk/Valdemar Scholarships
Message-ID: <v01530500ae78b6f89ee4-+AT+-[204.253.92.108]>

Nina wrote:
>
>Oh yeah, I need an ObMisty, don't I?  Umm.. are there such things as student
>loans in Valdemar?  I mean, the rich can send their kids to study in Haven,
>but what if you want to be an engineer or scholar or something, but you
>can't afford to go?

I think they have to be sponsered by someone, which I suppose is like
getting a grant. I'm sure the ones who have proven they are really talented
get in on "scholarship" awards!
--------------------------------
Nina also wrote:

>Christopher Walken as Dirk!  Ahhhhhh!  Dirk is supposed to be sensitive,
>great with kids, loves little animals, etc.  Somehow, Walken does _not_ fit
>that image in my mind.  Of course, I can't come up with a decent casting of
>my own at this point...lemme sleep on it.  As for Skif, I think Christian
>Slater would be great.  I think my current choice for Van is Daniel Day
>Lewis (since you brought up Last of the Mohicans).
>
>
For Dirk, how about that guy who played Luke Skywalker? Mark Hammil I think
his name is. He's already proven he can play sensitive. I think he could
pull of kids and animals pretty well. Besides, Dirk is supposed to be
"homely", and Mark hasnt looked so hot since his accident (no offense! I
like him!). I think your right on Skif and Vanyel though. (Daniel Day Lewis
is gorgeous! But could he play being Shaych?)
-------------------------------
About Killing people like Hitler before they *DO* anything. Well, I hate
Hitler just as much as anyone else. What he did was wrong, no question. The
problem is, in doing that, we would be interfering with his free will. What
he did was use that free will for a pretty bad reason. I would say that
*AFTER* he violated the free will of others is the only time you may
interfer with his. We are given free will to stand or fall on our own. How
we use that free will is the key.
If yours is being taken away, such in a case of being raped, you have the
right to fight back. (I didnt say kill, that would really have to depend on
the situation.) I say that if I ever killed someone, even in self defense,
I would still feel bad about it, no matter how bad that person was. Its
still taking a life. I honestly think however, that in a position of "kill
or be killed", you are not exactly sane. You dont do it cold heartly, you
do it in fear. More than anything, you just want what ever is going on to
STOP. Survival is human nature.  I know as a mother that one of the most
dangerous people are mothers who are defending their children. Its not just
love, its human nature. And if you have your back to a wall, are you REALLY
going to be wondering whats moral to do?
(I know that sounded confused. Sorry. havent slept in awhile)

Kimberly said:
>Don't slander other animals who can feel just as well as we can, though
>they may not reason as well as we can. You don't deny an autistic child
>their humanity...

Sorry, I had to respond to this one. As a mother of an autistic child, I
assure you, he is indeed human. He feels anger and joy, love and hate,
happiness and sadness just like anyone else. Sadly, even in this age of
enlightenment, I still have a hard time convincing people (exspecially the
school district) that he is human. They seem to think he is no more "human"
than a monkey. I think what we have forgotten is compassion. If you have
compassion for your fellow man, we probably wouldnt have so many moral
problems. Unfortunately, I think compassion and common sense are becoming
more "uncommon". Sad, isnt it?
-------------------------------------
Lady Treesa,
I formally request (more like beg) to become the Goddess of Fields and Fens
(if its not already taken). May I? Or do I have to bribe you? Pretty
Please???

Ok, thats enough for tonight.
Wind to thy wings everyone!
Julie



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 2:10:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu
To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK
Message-ID: <961003021001.22a610c7-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu>

Reply................. What an interesting conversation!..............

>(Cen)Okay, to start with, Taoism is a very organized relgion in its popular
>form.  This is the religious background that is the fount of the
>stereotypical Chinese obsession with numbering and list (after Taoism
>blended with Confucianism, things got much more pronounced, but the trend
>was already present in Taoism).  There are a large number of rituals in
>this religion.  Among other things, most of the ritual magic in the
>Chinese tradition is based on Taoism.

Yep.  Especially the divinatory type magic of the Yi Ching.  Also the 
practice of fengshui (wind water literally) as applied to gardening and
the kinesthetic art of picking the "right" place for a thing to reside or
be built (say in a garden for example) derive from Daoist (taoist)
teachings.  Though I have had several Chinese say that daoism isn't
really a religion in the western sense, I think it would be a more faith
centered religion under your scheme here.  

>BTW, one thing to remember is that
>Taoism is truly a religion (as opposed to a philosophy), since it has
>(a multitude of) divine beings that are worship as part of the religious
>praxis.

I have to admit I haven't really heard this part before.  Are you speaking
of Lao Tzu (Lao Zi)? I have heard of Chinese "dieties" such as Kuan Yin
(Japanese Kannon) being incorporated under a daoist framework by daoists
(as the buddhists certainly did under buddhism) but all in all, I have 
definately seen more buddhas, and bhoddhisattvas, and little fat or thin
or whatever representational "deities" lining the walls of buddhist temples
more than in relation to daoism.  I've always gained the impression of
daoists as the mystic types of the chinese hinterlands (not Tibet) who
studied life as a series of changes.  I would associate them more with
(but certainly not exactly like) the hawkbrother types rather that the
more organized types such as the Heralds and the Kethry type mages of
particular schools.  What do you think?  

>In these
>religions (which *are* less "community" oriented in general than Xianity),
>there is variation on an individual basis, with "immortals" and "saints"
>(the practitioners who are centered in faith) showing the least amount of
>attention to conventions and rituals.  This same pattern can also be said
>to hold in Xianity for the saints (in those denominations that have them)
>who are generally shown as iconoclastic (this is a general pattern, and
>there are certainly a number of exceptions).

Agreed.  Hindu yogi's, Tibetan vajreyana types and many other spiritual
belief systems follow this pattern as well I think.

> It just seems as if the closer the religious focus & the
> individual are, the less need there is for an institution to formalize
> that relationship and the fewer rituals surround and formalize the
> relationship.

LONG ONE HERE, Please skip it if you want.............

(However, I do think this whole conversation is pretty useful to gaining an 
understanding of what a Herald might think..... Spiritual people who
serve a society which sometimes doesn't seem to deserve them....

Well I don't know.  I think that the closer the individual gets to spiritual
things the less formalized relious ceremony they need as well.....but.
1. I am pretty sure that the idea of religion especially if it incorporates
a "church" or "community" or "fellowship" concept is designed to allow
those not as far along in their own spiritual development for whatever
reason to benefit from association and observation of these more developed
individuals, deriving a community benefit.  Man has this been abused
throughout the ages. Often the more spiritually developed figures chose to 
seperate themselves from the painful chaos of others.  Some hit an in between
and taught in various forms.  Others found a benefit in service that was
useful to the community both to themselves and to others..... but often
ran afoul of doctrine which was inappropriately construed to exclude
either them or their teachings in order to protect a selfish interest of
some individual or group....  .  Still, I think, from what I have observed
many of them recognize the use of ceremony as a stage in personal
spiritual development, as well as a comfort to themselves when they are
weary in the fight/path, and a useful, but dangerous tool for the initial
instruction of little ones. Of course, if a group or individual desires to
keep a person dependent, enforcement of the "little ones" practices as 
rules after the little ones have progressed to becomming not so little ones
is a time honoured repression technique that is hard to beat (since it
takes the things you have found so far comforting and constructive and
misconstrues them to the purpose of discontinuing spiritual development.
Anyway, the institution may not be less needed but the person may need
the institution less..... except for the need to do service and be a part
of community...

What cha think?

>Umm.  I just have to ask, do you mean "pacifistic" or "passivist"?  They
>are different things and I can't really tell which you mean, but I have
>never heard of Xianity being "passivist."  This is a for real, serious
<question, not just me being picky.  I think.  Maybe?  Help!

Um..... I would go pretty close to saying that Christ was, in some ways
passivist at some points.  If being passivist can include the concept
of intentional non-action in order to catalyze a desired even.......

Most Christian Churches I have seen and attended aren't.

>> One of the reasons, Mat.  Some of us talk not about her urban stuff
>> because it's BAD. *grin* SERRAted Edge?  Ick ick ICK!!
 
>And as everyone should know by now, I can't keep my disdain for the Di
>books under wraps.  Not that this should stop anyone from discussing it,
>but my discussions usually end up centering around why the Di books are
>the anti-christ of the Misty universe.  Oh well.

I would love to know why it is bad!  I like those books as much as the
herald/Tarma/etc books.  Why Bad (and a can of worms begs to be opened
by the sounds of it...)   ;)
 
>> *resisting the urge to jump in and throw out another definition of
>> WITCHCRAFT (which is what Wicca is... saying it's a type of Witchcraft
>> is like saying an automobile is a type of car).*  The one thing in the
>> pagan movement people will discover is that if you have 10 pagans, you
>> have 10 different interperetations of what the religion is.
 
I have heard this too.  There are lots of different types of wicca, and 
other pagan beliefs.... there are lots of cultures in the world for these
beliefs to spring from giving them their flavor.  Also, wiccan type beliefs
had to go non-public (for obvious historical reasons!) for a long time and
many beliefs were held within a family (family traditions) or a small
group.  People are creative in their expression of spirituality.  Wiccans
no less than and maybe more so than many others!  To contrast, check out
the number of christian denominations around.  Buddhism has many different
sects with varying beliefs.  Hundi religious practice the same......
I will give the wiccans of my aquaintance this for sure. If 10 of them when
asked say 10 different seeming things... each will likely say something!
If I find 10 Christians (and I am one) not standing in the same building
and ask them the same..... I bet i only get 2 or three answers.... and
they will probably differ too....  Not always, of course, but you
get my drift. 

Also, modern wicca, in being revitalized as a vibrant growing belief system
has gone through some interesting times and individuals.  

Snippet.... I just learned today in a comparative law class that the 
Saxon word "Wittan" or "Witan" was a judge in the old (Dark Ages) 
germanic based legal systems. Whee hoo.

>Ummm.  If this is true, then how can you make such a blanket statement
>that witchcraft=wicca?  It doesn't really.  There are any number of things
>which are legitimately called witchcraft that I would most strenously
>object to calling wicca.  Just for the most obvious one, satanic
>witchcraft is quite legitimately called witchcraft (it certainly has a
<longer history under the name than modern Wicca), but I would not hesitate
<to flame someone unmercifully if they were so unwise as to suggest that
<Wiccans were Satanists in my presence.  Similarly, the practice of "black
<magic" among the Navajo (and many other Native American peoples) is called
<witchcraft in English, but it certainly isn't Wicca.  Anyway, I would say
<that the statement "Wicca is a type of witchcraft" is actually analogous
<to saying "a Porsche is a kind of car."  Saying that "Satanism is a type
<of witchcraft" is like saying "a Pinto (or maybe a Yugo?) is a kind of
<car."  In one case you are giving an example of a good item of a
<general type, and in the other you are giving an example of an evil one.

Many Wiccan friends have mentioned that, not believing in Satan (and some 
in Christ per se either) they would find it fallacious to be said that they 
worshipped Satan.  Most Satanist "witchcraft" is/was in direct opposition
to the Roman/Catholic Christian church (at its) outset under that name
at least.  I don't agree that they have a longer history that wiccans.
Wicce and similiar roots of wiccan go back to meanings of things like
"weaver" "crafter" "wise" and apparently "judge" (probably from the "wise"
part........ believe that?......weg). English, as a language came from
so many roots, after having been part of cultures which stomped many many
indigenous cultures into the dirt, that it seems pretty likely to me that
"witches" fell under the art of taking a word, filling it with the meaning
you want, applying it to someone or something and helping it catch on. 
Slang happens every day. Words change.  Meanings change. Misperception
happens easily over time, but misleading happens more quickly!  Labeling
happens in our society today.  Give a class of people (for example) a name
which comes loaded with negative connotations or to which it is easy to
apply such connotations, and they be "bad" people pretty quick!

Personally, I think one way (my way) of describing wicca as a religion is
to say that wiccans tend to develop a personal (sometimes communal) belief
system that includes a reverence for the Earth (physically and spiritually)
embraces the principle of what ya send out your gonna get back in spades,
(as does christianity's golden rule and the concept of karma), usually
embrace some idea of magick as a description of spiritual events, and 
believe that that magick can be interacted with actively by individuals
and perhaps more powerfully in small groups, embrace an ideal of a female
deity and usually but not always a male one (or more) and are pretty
determined to be tolerant but active spiritually on an individual and often
social level.  Usually there is a pretty hefty dose of borrowing from other
religious, belief, spiritual, and philosophical systems, (as well as more 
creative things) and a tendency to be practical, serious, responsible 
and funloving (and loving) while doing it.  I learned a lot from wicca and
from wiccans.  Still do.  Lots of folks have good stuff to say.  Lot
of wiccans practice that.  taught me a lot about understanding.  Also let
me gleefully dragon (guard sort of) many circles, or more usually pour my
hearts song and not inconsiderable spiritual energy (I didn't say knowledge
or progression!) into circles. (One) of the closest things to taking a step
into Valdemar/etc. that I have known in this world. 

As my Official OB MISTY... sounds like what I know of the Herald's beliefs
as they might play out incorporated officially into a governmental structure
to me.

Night Y'all.

Tim 

 (Carrach if you want, Jestre if you don't, Hey You! if ya feel
like it, and friend if ya will)
exclude
either them or their teachings in order to protect a selfish interest of
some individual or group....  .  Still, I think, from what I have observed
many of them recognize the use of ceremony as a stage in personal
spiritual development, as well as a comfort to themselves when they are
weary in the fight/path, and a useful, but dangerous tool for the initial
instruction of little ones. Of course, if a group or individual desires to
keep a person dependent, enforcement of the "little ones" practices as 
rules after the little ones have progressed to becomming not so little ones
is a time honoured repression technique that is hard to beat (since it
takes the things you have found so far comforting and constructive and
misconstrues them to the purpose of discontinuing spiritual development.
Anyway, the institution may not be less needed but the person may need
the institution less..... except for the need to do service and be a part
of community...

What cha think?

>Umm.  I just have to ask, do you mean "pacifistic" or "passivist"?  They
>are different things and I can't really tell which you mean, but I have
>never heard of Xianity being "passivist."  This is a for real, serious
<question, not just me being picky.  I think.  Maybe?  Help!

Um..... I would go pretty close to saying that Christ was, in some ways
passivist at some points.  If being passivist can include the concept
of intentional non-action in order to catalyze a desired even.......

Most Christian Churches I have seen and attended aren't.

>> One of the reasons, Mat.  Some of us talk not about her urban stuff
>> because it's BAD. *grin* SERRAted Edge?  Ick ick ICK!!
 
>And as everyone should know by now, I can't keep my disdain for the Di
>books under wraps.  Not that this should stop anyone from discussing it,
>but my discussions usually end up centering around why the Di books are
>the anti-christ of the Misty universe.  Oh well.

I would love to know why it is bad!  I like those books as much as the
herald/Tarma/etc books.  Why Bad (and a can of worms begs to be opened
by the sounds of it...)   ;)
 
>> *resisting the urge to jump in and throw out another definition of
>> WITCHCRAFT (which is what Wicca is... saying it's a type of Witchcraft
>> is like saying an automobile is a type of car).*  The one thing in the
>> pagan movement people will discover is that if you have 10 pagans, you
>> have 10 different interperetations of what the religion is.
  
I have heard this too.  There are lots of different types of wicca, and 
other pagan beliefs.... there are lots of cultures in the world for these
beliefs to spring from giving them their flavor.  Also, wiccan type beliefs
had to go non-public (for obvious historical reasons!) for a long time and
many beliefs were held within a family (family traditions) or a small
group.  People are creative in their expression of spirituality.  Wiccans
no less than and maybe more so than many others!  To contrast, check out
the number of christian denominations around.  Buddhism has many different
sects with varying beliefs.  Hundi religious practice the same......
I will give the wiccans of my aquaintance this for sure. If 10 of them when
asked say 10 different seeming things... each will likely say something!
If I find 10 Christians (and I am one) not standing in the same building
and ask them the same..... I bet i only get 2 or three answers.... and
they will probably differ too....  Not always, of course, but you
get my drift. 

Also, modern wicca, in being revitalized as a vibrant growing belief system
has gone through some interesting times and individuals.  

Snippet.... I just learned today in a comparative law class that the 
Saxon word "Wittan" or "Witan" was a judge in the old (Dark Ages) 
germanic based legal systems. Whee hoo.

>Ummm.  If this is true, then how can you make such a blanket statement
>that witchcraft=wicca?  It doesn't really.  There are any number of things
>which are legitimately called witchcraft that I would most strenously
>object to calling wicca.  Just for the most obvious one, satanic
>witchcraft is quite legitimately called witchcraft (it certainly has a
<longer history under the name than modern Wicca), but I would not hesitate
<to flame someone unmercifully if they were so unwise as to suggest that
<Wiccans were Satanists in my presence.  Similarly, the practice of "black
<magic" among the Navajo (and many other Native American peoples) is called
<witchcraft in English, but it certainly isn't Wicca.  Anyway, I would say
<that the statement "Wicca is a type of witchcraft" is actually analogous
<to saying "a Porsche is a kind of car."  Saying that "Satanism is a type
<of witchcraft" is like saying "a Pinto (or maybe a Yugo?) is a kind of
<car."  In one case you are giving an example of a good item of a
<general type, and in the other you are giving an example of an evil one.

Many Wiccan friends have mentioned that, not believing in Satan (and some 
in Christ per se either) they would find it fallacious to be said that they 
worshipped Satan.  Most Satanist "witchcraft" is/was in direct opposition
to the Roman/Catholic Christian church (at its) outset under that name
at least.  I don't agree that they have a longer history that wiccans.
Wicce and similiar roots of wiccan go back to meanings of things like
"weaver" "crafter" "wise" and apparently "judge" (probably from the "wise"
part........ believe that?......weg). English, as a language came from
so many roots, after having been part of cultures which stomped many many
indigenous cultures into the dirt, that it seems pretty likely to me that
"witches" fell under the art of taking a word, filling it with the meaning
you want, applying it to someone or something and helping it catch on. 
Slang happens every day. Words change.  Meanings change. Misperception
happens easily over time, but misleading happens more quickly!  Labeling
happens in our society today.  Give a class of people (for example) a name
which comes loaded with negative connotations or to which it is easy to
apply such connotations, and they be "bad" people pretty quick!

Personally, I think one way (my way) of describing wicca as a religion is
to say that wiccans tend to develop a personal (sometimes communal) belief
system that includes a reverence for the Earth (physically and spiritually)
embraces the principle of what ya send out your gonna get back in spades,
(as does christianity's golden rule and the concept of karma), usually
embrace some idea of magick as a description of spiritual events, and 
believe that that magick can be interacted with actively by individuals
and perhaps more powerfully in small groups, embrace an ideal of a female
deity and usually but not always a male one (or more) and are pretty
determined to be tolerant but active spiritually on an individual and often
social level.  Usually there is a pretty hefty dose of borrowing from other
religious, belief, spiritual, and philosophical systems, (as well as more 
creative things) and a tendency to be practical, serious, responsible 
and funloving (and loving) while doing it.  I learned a lot from wicca and
from wiccans.  Still do.  Lots of folks have good stuff to say.  Lot
of wiccans practice that.  taught me a lot about understanding.  Also let
me gleefully dragon (guard sort of) many circles, or more usually pour my
hearts song and not inconsiderable spiritual energy (I didn't say knowledge
or progression!) into circles. (One) of the closest things to taking a step
into Valdemar/etc. that I have known in this world. 

As my Official OB MISTY... sounds like what I know of the Herald's beliefs
as they might play out incorporated officially into a governmental structure
to me.

Night Y'all.

Tim 

 (Carrach if you want, Jestre if you don't, Hey You! if ya feel
like it, and friend if ya will)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:38:16 -0700
From: chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Abrev. List
Message-ID: <199610040038.RAA00263-+AT+-rgs.rgs.edu.sg>

Excuse me but this is the Goddess of Abrev. list speaking. I will be lurking
for some time as my exams are here and I need someone to inform the newbies
that they can get a copy of the abrev. list from me at chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg 
Could whichever kind person who will be helping me mail me at the above
address. Thanks.
As for all the newbies who are very lost with all the terms we use and
abrev. we use, please mail me at chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg

Bye for now!

Stormwind
Learning is a treasure which accompanies its owner everywhere.
--Anonymous


------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 857
*********************************