MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 866 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: can we stop it now? please?? by Ken Hyde 2) Re: can we stop it now? please?? by Disney 3) Goodkind/fantasy/Kushner/Ramona/SB spoilerette by undine 4) Braid: Casting/Clairvoyance/Rethwellan succession/no more flames by myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao) 5) Re: Braid: Trek actors/Tiger Burning Bright/Urban fantasy/short by "E. Angell" 6) Elvenblood/Dragon*con/Heathens/SB/age/J Roberson by Mat the Cat in Green 7) off-topicness/Twain by Mat the Cat in Green 8) ARGH!!! by Claris Smith 9) SB spoilerette by jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin) 10) Reply to: ARGH!!! by Rozanna McNeer 11) Kushner/fantasy/degrees/offtopiciosity by "Hth." 12) Off-Topic:Thank Yous/Attn: LotPW-Lilac Fairy does Mat the Cat by LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com 13) by ajfabbey-+AT+-powerup.com.au 14) Braid: Degrees/ by "Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda" 15) Re: Books between Arrows and Mage Storms by "Heather D. Wegemer" 16) Response to Adrienne by "Hth." 17) Re: Response to Adrienne by Jaguar 18) re: Response to Adrienne by Ailsa Reid ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:43:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: can we stop it now? please?? Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Rozanna McNeer wrote: > HTH expressed an opinion, Lyn replied, HTH thought Lyn was talking down to > her and got mad on list - everyone flames poor Lyn. Lyn has been typing private > and public emails trying to set the record straight, but nearly everyone seems > to have taken HTH's side. Fine. I'm not denying that HTH has a right to > defend herself from attack on list. I'm also not saying Lyn is completely innocent (sorry Lyn) but that was only from a lack of sprinkling the post with lots of > IMHOs. But come on! Those two have a problem - let them work it out. Don't > take sides and drive Lyn off the list! She made a mistake, she's trying to put it > aright. *leave it be* Hmmmm. You know, this is not the first (or second) time that this has caused a conflagration (a bunch of related flames). Might I suggest that we institute a new rule for the list: "leave your Ph.D. (or candidacy) at the door!"? Basically, the really offensive part of Lyn's post (and I'm sure that it was unintentional) was that she invoked her candidacy as an argument for her point. Okay, admittedly she intended it to be self-deprecatory, but that didn't quite come across. This has happened before (and I am probably as guilty as anyone else), and even when said in jest, "You should listen to me about this subject, because I (will) have a doctorate in it" never goes over well. No matter how much humor you try to inject, your audience (the other list-members with blow-torches) will recognize it as an attempt to assert a spurious (on the list) authority to support your arguments, and they will justifiably resent it and react badly *Fooomp--ashes, ashes everywhere!* So why not just say, no invocations of docorates? If you have one, congratulations, but since it is completely irrelevant to your argument, why mention it. BTW, as someone else in academe, I have found that as soon as someone starts mentioning their own degrees, awards, etc, it is a good time to start looking suspiciously at their arguments. It is almost always a sign that their evidence or their conclusions, or both are questionable. If someone asks you how you know so much about something, you are always free to say that you got or are trying to get your advanced degree/ Ph.D./what-have-you in the subject. But unless you are asked, don't bother mentioning it. Anyway, what do others on this list think. Should there be a "No invoking advanced degrees" rule? Or should we just flame anyone who does so on an informal, "don't patronize me" basis? Actually, this second option is the current one, and it seems to be an unpopular choice. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:01:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Disney To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: can we stop it now? please?? Message-ID: <01IAEML4QSTG00874Y-+AT+-ACAD.DRAKE.EDU> I agree with the consensus that this has all got to stop. Alot of us newbies (not that I can speak for EVERYONE, but a lot of friends of mine, agree) that this mailing list isn't fun. This is supposed to be a Misty mailing list, but for a while now I have been getting No misty-mail. It's been these long theological debates that have no bearing on anything in the fantasy world, philosophy debates, and people bashing. It doesn't matter if a person is 12 or 120...Opinions are just opinions and everyone has em. We don't have to state WHY we have these opinions (i.e. I'm getting a doctor's degree or whatever so you have to listen to my informed/NSHO opinion. IMHO, i consider that kinda like 'pulling rank' on someone who is actually your equal. I thank everyone who has stood up for ending this problem and making it a 'misty list' again. :*) And here's my obMisty for the day. *snicker* I was recently re-reading LHM and something caught my eye...Vanyel's cousin Radeval made use of an epithet about the Twain (this was in reference to something about the maternal instinct that Treesa had, I think..saying that it would take an act from the Twain themselves to make Van a 'momma'.) The thing I was curious about is...In one of the Wind's books, didn't Need mention the gods/goddesses called the Twain? Wasn't that the name of the twins i think? I don't have my books here right now, and the question is bugging me...Because Vanyel said to Elspeth something about not knowing any gods or goddesses like that? I dunno...*random thoughts roam aimlessly through an overtired mind* Oh well :P Thanx for listening (or not listening :P) to my humble opinion. :) "Disneyworld" worshipper of the Mouse All HAIL the MOUSE! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:56:34 -0400 (EDT) From: undine To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Goodkind/fantasy/Kushner/Ramona/SB spoilerette Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Morgana wrote: > Undine wrote, this morning I think > Hm... is the fact I consider Deanna to be one of the > best characters in WFR a good thing, or a bad thing? I swear, I cried so > much during that section of the book, I was amazed..... Me too!! When Richard finds out that using the agiel hurts her and asks that another MordSith train him. Or the part where she's talking about how Darken Rahl broke her. I was totally sodden!! Have you read _Stone of Tears_? I don't want to spoil it for you but Denna makes an appearance... which is equally tear-inducing. ********************************* Sandy asked about the Catfantastic anthos. They are edited by Andre Norton and Martin Greenberg. **************************************** I found the following interesting in light of the "what is fantasy?" thread. It's taken from Terri Windling's summation of fantasy for the fifth annual _Year's Best Fantasy & Horror_. "...the works of writers whose capacity to 'evoke ideas and clothe them in symbols, allegory and dream' is great indeed. These works are gathered from far and wide: literary reviews and pulp magazines, mainstream fiction collections and genre anthologies, children's literature and foreign works in translation- for fantasy literature is a vast field that spills far beyond the confines of the adult fantasy genre created (as a marketing tool) by modern publishers. Fantasy fiction is as old as the first stories told and written down, as old as its mythic and folkloric bones. It is a field that is as literary as the works of its most eloquent practitioners (Spenser's Faerie Queen, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, William Morris's The Defense of Guinevere, James Thurber's The Thirteen Clocks) and at the same time as crassly commercial as a lurid paperback with a big-breasted woman swooning at the feet of a muscle-bound swordsman. It is not only a preponderance of the latter kind of book that has made the entire fantasy field suspect within the contemporary literary establishment of the late twentieth century, segregating many worthy works of literature into the genre ghetto, but also a shift in fashionable literary taste..." There's a reason why I love her column in Realms of Fantasy! ***************************** For all of you Swordspoint fans out there, there is a short story featuring Richard and Alec called "The Swordsman Whose Name Was Not Death" in TYBF&H 5. Aieee, but Ellen Kushner can write! ******************************** Ooh, Lilac Fairy, a LotPW party?! With nibbly bits and scrying? With OoUL? Shall I bring Cobweb back for the event? 'though I must admit to wearing him out with my constant demands for feet massages and chocolate chip cookies *weg* Thank you for your cheering message!! I've begun a reply to fill you in with all of the gruesome details. Most of the horrid bits are either over (writing condolence letters never gets easier) or not yet arrived (round 3 in the financing battle). ************************************************* Kimberella, my sweet, who do you think is most appreciative of my Wild Water sprite Wriggle? *giggle* That's what SOs are for! Have you read "The Little Mermaid" recently? 'cause it actually has a happy (in a christian sort of way) ending. She doesn't get the prince but instead of turning into seafoam like mermaids usually do when they die ('cause they don't have souls), she does get to go to heaven. BTW have you noticed how often "sea foam" comes up in our conversations? *grin* Are you a closet Water Baby? ************************************** Hi Ramona, the Rosemary Edghill books are $5.99 each and I don't charge for s/h in the US. Did you like the Hellflower books? I've read a few of her short stories in MZB's Fantasy Mag and enjoyed them. And I can get a copy of Law of Desire for you but it would come directly from the publisher which takes 2-5 weeks depending on how sloooowly they process orders. ;) ********************************************* SB Spoilerette: I have to disagree with Cennydd. I don't think that magic will return to its pre-SB levels. Magic changed after the MageWars 'cause at one point Falconsbane is musing that he doesn't have as much power at his diposal as he did when he was Ma'ar. In the beginning of WoC, there's a bit when Elspeth and Skif are being adopted as wingsibs and they get to see some of the history behind the formation of the Shin'a'in and Tayledras. It says that Magic itself was changed by the cataclysm. End SB Spoilerette ***************************************** Undine who forgot to factor sleep into her deadline planning In honor of the Ever Lovely Founder of the LotPW: "Librarians are the secret masters of the world. They control information. Don't ever piss one off." Jake Stonebender ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 18:06:01 +0000 From: myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid: Casting/Clairvoyance/Rethwellan succession/no more flames Message-ID: <199610082301.SAA10985-+AT+-cdale3.midwest.net> Val wrote: >>>Jeremy Irons - Falconsbane Gates McFadden - Selaney Shalaman - Michael Dorn (much better than for Albericht as I sugested) <<< Yes!!! Someone finally thinks Gates McFadden would be great as Selenay!!! And Michael Dorn as Shalaman -- gotta be great. Avery Brooks *might* pull it off... How's about Cirroc Lofton (Jake Sisko, ST:DS9) for Ikala? Wasn't he supposed to be pretty young in SG? As for Jeremy Irons, I was thinking about him more for Leareth, but they're essentially the same person in the plot of the books, right? BTW, I'm still campaigning for Brent Spiner as Amberdrake. Anyone else? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Firemist wrote: >>>oh dear, i just realized I may have flubbed. i've always seen precognition >>>and clairvoyance used interchangably - but clairvoyance is also used in the sense seeing things that are going on at present but at a different locale. that would be FarSight - which Kris had, and some others (Elspeth was trained in it, although Darkwind speculates that her mage gift was trained as farsight which seems to imply she doens't actually have FarSight)<<< Y'know, I always thought clairvoyance was a combination of ForeSight and FarSight. In _The Rowan_ by Anne McCaffrey, a clairvoyant, Yegrani, tells the rescue crew of the whereabouts of a strongly psi-talented child (the Rowan), and then utters a cryptic remark that she will have a great life, but it won't be easy, or something like that. So I thought clairvoyants are the sort with both ForeSight and FarSight. So far, we haven't seen anyone like that in Valdemar, though. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Keith Barber wrote: >>>BTW, if something happened to Faramentha and his children Elspeth be the next in line? I know she renounced the position of heir but that was in Valdemar and we have no evidence that would put her out of the sucession in Rethwellan. as I remember her father was older than Daren thus making her senior in the sucession.<<< I think that since she was born in Valdemar, she only had claim to the throne of Valdemar. Since Daren is the prince-consort of Valdemar, and Selenay is the Queen of Valdemar, I don't think any of their children would have a claim on Rethwellan, either. And besides, I think all claim that the evil brother had on the Rethwellan throne was renounced by his assassination attempt of Selenay, and that was passed on down to Elspeth. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cennydd wrote: >>>Anyway, what do others on this list think. Should there be a "No invoking advanced degrees" rule? Or should we just flame anyone who does so on an informal, "don't patronize me" basis? Actually, this second option is the current one, and it seems to be an unpopular choice.<<< I think the "No invoking advanced degrees" rule would be better, because if someone says "Don't patronize me!!!" then the person (s)he said it to would retaliate "I wasn't patronizing!" "Yes you were!" "No I wasn't!!" and so forth. That's how most of these flames start. Leave your Ph.D.s, Master's Degrees, etc. at the door, please. And if you're going to flame someone, please do it privately -- we don't need a flame war on this list. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Okay -- I'm done for today. Have a nice day, filksies! Live long and ... whatever, Summersong & Spiffy the Feline **************************************************** Akiko Hirao | "You must tell him that he's a good cat, | a pretty cat, and ..." -- Data Trekker, Trekkie Trekaholic | "I will feed him." -- Worf Die-hard Data fan | ST:TNG "Phantasms" **************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:19:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Angell" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: Trek actors/Tiger Burning Bright/Urban fantasy/short Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, miyako hirao wrote: > E. Angell wrote: > >>>Hey, what about Nana Visitor? ;-) They are all good, tho'. And I love > Mira Furlan, Bruce Boxleitner, Andreas Katsulas, Jason Carter, Claudia > Christian.....Guess who's the local B5 freak? :-) first ep of the Final Five!!!!!><<< > > I forgot about her! And Terry Farrel, too. And guess what? I love Babylon > 5, too! Hey! I just got an idea: How about Leonard Nimoy for Randale in > LHM? And Majel Barrett (Lwaxana Troi) as Lady Treesa? ROTFLMAO!! MB would be absolutely *perfect* as Treesa... Oh, gods, now you've gotten me started, I just keep seein' her playing her game of "courtly love" > >>>Okay, butting in AGAIN. No quotes, sorry. Obviously both Eric and `Lendel > had this particular trait. I want to say that there was a bit with Stef, > too. And others, possibly. Maybe this is one of those "almost archetypes" > -- something that Misty likes to characterize someone and she uses over and > over. If that`s so -- it WOULD stick in the mind more than another trait. > Could I be on the right path here?<<< > > You know what? Okay, description time: Heart shaped face, big brown eyes, > brown hair, and very short. Who is this? It sounds quite a bit like Talia, > doesn't it? Add "waist length" to the brown hair. Voila -- it's Di > Tregarde! Like the floppy hair, it's recycled description, IMO. But I think > she does a good job of really individualizing these characters, the > descriptions don't much matter -- though I think if Talia and Di met in > person, they'd both be surprised as heck. Aha... and check this one out- small, curly B hair, big B eyes, heart-shaped face, not beautiful but pretty, ran away at 13 from oppressive family life to follow a dream....No, not Talia, this is Rune from L&W. I kept noticing that part too. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Raindancer wrote: > >> BTW, Isn't Talia short? I *know* there's > a scene in AoTQ, right after it's skipped a year or two, where it > describes the changes in her and says she is "would never be tall.." > I do remember this, I'm sure, 'cause I *really* liked seeing a fantasy > heroine (besides Lessa) who isn't completely tall & beautiful... it makes > them more real and makes me feel better when one of my fave characters is > small too ;-)<<< > > Well, it makes me feel better because I'm only 5'2", and most of my friends > tower over me, and I'm no raving beauty. Somehow, I seem to be able to be > more involved in the reading when the character isn't so perfect and > righteous and logical and rational all the time (on the last two, the three > exceptions are Spock, Data, and Tuvok, and the Vulcan's aren't rational all > the time). Exactly. I get so tired of the perfect beauties in so many fantasy books- such as Piers Anthony & his type. I always identified with Talia & Menolly because they were also short, & kinda shy, & loved music, etc. Their stories captivated me *so* much more because they were people that were just a little like me. Zhai'helleva, 'S e do bheatha, & other nice things, Raindancer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:42:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Elvenblood/Dragon*con/Heathens/SB/age/J Roberson Message-ID: > From: Rozanna McNeer > > obmisty: IMO, LHM and Sword-Sworn are the best things in the Velgarth series > she has written. Elvenblood and Elvenbane were also excellent. I can't > understand why she would slip so (thinking of SG and SB) :( want the old misty > back! Hmm, IIRC, I didn't care for Elvenblood too much. I really liked Elvenbane, but 'Blood let me down. Don't ask me why tho, since I haven't read it since it first came out. ========================================================================== > From: Jake > Stormcloud wrote: > >Mat said: > > > >> Well, she'll be at Dragon*con in Atlanta in June. Along with a bunch of > >> listmembers. > > Let's see. HTH, Mat, me, 'Reesa, Tammy, 'Talyah.. *trying to keep a count* Don't forget Jag and Catherine. > Heathen #70 smiles at Heathen #81, and looks at Heathen-to-be Mat, wondering > what happened to his stuff! *grin* And Creature of the Wood? I love it. > *grin* And BlackJack Lady. And Life's Flame! *grin grin grin grin* Grr. I emailed Phil Obermark yesterday about it. Does he answer his mail frequently Jake? ======================================================================== > From: Kathleen Johnson <104143.277-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> > Hi, this is my first post to this list. I've been lurking here for about a > week. What I really need to know is if SB is better than Silver Gryphon. > After spending the money on SG and after anticipating its arrival for > months, it was a real disappointment to me. So, am I safe picking up SB > or should I wait for the paperback? I'd say you're safe. :) It does have its dissapointing, annoying parts, but it also has very good parts, unlike SG. > (I'm 29 by the way, in answer to someone's poll, sorry I forgot who's) Speaking of which, today's my birthday! :D Oooh, I finally hit double decades! ========================================================================== > From: Pat Armetta > I have read all the Jennifer Roberson Sword- books I thought they were > great, with one exception: The ending of Sword Breaker, IMHO it was a > bit too perfect... I was going to say why but you need to read it > first or I will Spoil it for you. But over all, It is a really great > series. I haven't read any of them, but did you know that 2 more books are on their way in that series? They're _Sword-born_, and get this, _Sword-Sworn_. It says it in the inside of _The Golden Key_, by Rawn, Roberson, and Elliott. Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"I looked across the battlefield, blood Adept, and God of Procrastination| seeping from my wounds. My comrades, mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | they did never yield. For courage http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/| knows no bounds." - Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:01:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: off-topicness/Twain Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Disney wrote: > I agree with the consensus that this has all got to stop. Alot of us newbies > (not that I can speak for EVERYONE, but a lot of friends of mine, agree) > that this mailing list isn't fun. This is supposed to be a Misty mailing > list, but for a while now I have been getting No misty-mail. It's been > these long theological debates that have no bearing on anything in the > fantasy world, philosophy debates, and people bashing. Don't get scared off by that stuff. The list isn't usually like that (and I've been on it a loooooong time). Most of the time, we're very friendly and fun. But everyone has their rough times. It happens. And we actually do manage to at least marginally stick to the topic. We do wander a bit occasionally though. > I was recently re-reading LHM and something caught my eye...Vanyel's cousin > Radeval made use of an epithet about the Twain (this was in reference to > something about the maternal instinct that Treesa had, I think..saying that > it would take an act from the Twain themselves to make Van a 'momma'.) > The thing I was curious about is...In one of the Wind's books, didn't > Need mention the gods/goddesses called the Twain? Wasn't that the name > of the twins i think? I don't have my books here right now, and the question > is bugging me...Because Vanyel said to Elspeth something about not knowing > any gods or goddesses like that? I dunno...*random thoughts roam aimlessly > through an overtired mind* Well, Need called her gods "The Twins". Remember, they were a pair of Twins. When Rad says the Twain, he's probably referring to Astera and Kernos. IMHO, anyway. Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"I looked across the battlefield, blood Adept, and God of Procrastination| seeping from my wounds. My comrades, mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | they did never yield. For courage http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/| knows no bounds." - Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:04:56 -0500 From: Claris Smith To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: ARGH!!! Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961009010456.0090e66c-+AT+-comp.uark.edu> Hi, I was *somehow* unsubscribed several days ago...so if any remarks were addressed to me, I missed them...Can I get old digests somewhere? Anyway, good to be back. *Claris Smith: Art/History Major, GM, sf/fantasy Artist, Gung Fu Student* * "ccsmith-+AT+-comp.uark.edu" "http://comp.uark.edu/~ccsmith/" * *See the Web Site for The Dragon Roars Zine: Now accepting Submissions!* "What is that, Kermit, an elephant handgun?""Gotta protect my disks."KF:tLC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:44:31 -0400 From: jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: SB spoilerette Message-ID: >SB Spoilerette: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Undine wrote: > >I have to disagree with Cennydd. I don't think that magic will return to >its pre-SB levels. Magic changed after the MageWars 'cause at one point >Falconsbane is musing that he doesn't have as much power at his diposal >as he did when he was Ma'ar. In the beginning of WoC, there's a bit when >Elspeth and Skif are being adopted as wingsibs and they get to see some >of the history behind the formation of the Shin'a'in and Tayledras. It >says that Magic itself was changed by the cataclysm. > > > Has the magic of Velgarth now returned to the state it was in before the first cataclysm do you think? Your right about Falconsbanes comment about the world not having as much magic as when he was Ma'ar. If thats the case, maybe what they will need to do is re-learn all the old magic. Maybe all that power that ma'ar remembered was caught up in the Final Storm, and now that it "came back", it can be used like it used to be? (Did that even sound right?) I seem to remember a passage somewhere about the goddess having to teach the taylendras about nodes and ley lines. Maybe they came into existance after the first cataclysm? Ok, thats my .02 Wind to thy wings, listsibs! Julie, Goddess of Fields and Fens ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:13:17 -0400 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: ARGH!!! Message-ID: <199610082213_MC1-A9B-8E71-+AT+-compuserve.com> Claris, you can get to the archives at www.herald.co.uk/pub/lists/lackey-archives be warned - it's from sometime in 95 to now so it takes a lllloooonnngggg time to load Auntie Mel, could you please do something about that?? pretty please? even splitting it on year basis would help. . . Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 22:04:32 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Kushner/fantasy/degrees/offtopiciosity Message-ID: <08OCT96.23841675.0039.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> YEOW! I *did not know* there was an Alec & Richard short story out there. Wonders never cease. Yes, Ellen Kushner is a great writer, and I wish she'd write more than two books. BTW, the latest Year's Best Fantasy & Horror (#9, IIRC), has a Kushner story called "The Hunt of the Unicorn," which has nothing to do with unicorns, but it does have a gay love affair, if you're into that kind of thing (you freaks). It's reprinted from Peter Beagle's anthology, The Immortal Unicorn, which I have not read, but both Kushner and Beagle's stories were in Year's Best, and were in fact excellent. I found a neat quote about fantasy, which sums up what I've been trying to say for a while now, beginning with my comments about fantasy as escapism. It's by Richard Monaco (of whom I've never heard) from the note to his 1984 book Runes (which I've never read). "Some of us confuse fantasy with escape from reality.... Escape? But to where? Into your own mind and images, in the end. And you'll have to deal with the facts and fears, agonies, frustrations, and hopes...the quest that leads toward inner freedom and an intensity that brings more joy and real passion than you'll ever find in any literature of daydreams." Just thought that was particularly profound. I'll tentatively embrace the No Doctorate policy (otherwise known as... 6 Degrees of Separation? sorry, weak joke). The problem, IMO, is not so much an attempt to establish your credentials, but the attempt to close down conversation due to them. Had the post begun, Thoughts from a Doctoral Candidate, etc. etc., I doubt I would have found that annoying. It was the "don't mess with" that got to me, in the implication (certainly unintentional) that the words of someone with a degree ought to be the last and only valid words on the subject. I do tend to believe that academic credentials are worth something. If you want to know something about quantum physics, whom are you going to ask, me or a quantum physician? And if you want to know something about medieval history, whom are you going to ask, Homer Simpson or Danya? I don't *mind* people saying, "I base this opinion on the research and reading I've done over the last several years while pursuing an advanced degree in just this topic." So long as everyone is careful not to use that opening to say/imply: "So you morons can just sit down." That's the real danger. The way to equalize relationships is not to pretend that you don't know what you're talking about. It's to allow for the possibility that other people might, too. Then we wouldn't *need* to make silly rules governing which life experiences we could talk about on the list and which we can't. Let's strive for that level of civilization. You know, I'm sorry that people aren't finding the list "fun." But I'm not sure I'd find it fun if we never discussed anything but Mercedes Lackey books. I don't know how to find and/or enforce some kind of balance. Is two days of conversation about religion really out of line? What about news and reviews of other fantasy works and authors? I agree that there's such a thing as too much fluff, but is it fair to say that the list is only fun so long as it is strictly and without exception a "Misty list"? I don't know what to make of this situation, except to say that no one is stopping anyone from making any Misty-related comments or questions they choose. In fact, sometimes I roll my eyes at the fortieth post on (for example) what finger Talia wears her wedding ring on. I don't know what the solution is. I guess my question would be, should we attempt to handle this and provide some kind of paramaters within which conversations on the list should operate, or should we just say, the list is what the list is, and it will appeal to some people and not to others? Ideas? HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 00:13:33 -0400 From: LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Off-Topic:Thank Yous/Attn: LotPW-Lilac Fairy does Mat the Cat Message-ID: <961009001332_1513147112-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Kimberdoodley wrote: >>Lilac Fairy, did I congratulate you or was I too much of a boor? Ai yi... Ididn't, did I? ::guilty look:: CONGRATULASHUNS!!!! (tithe to the Golden Tuppings) *hug*<< and on Sat, 5 Oct, Lady Jenna wrote: >>Lilac, congratulations on the new position! Okay, Ladies, *hugs* for our proud leader and founder! :)<< and on Mon, 7 Oct Lady Sophia wrote: >>Madame Fee des Lilas, bonne chance a votre nouvelle travaille!! J'espere que vous le aimerez! (Apologies for the poor French - it has been awhile).<< The Lilac Fairy thanks all of you, and the others who sent her kind wishes. She is really, really happy about this job. The Lilac Fairy just has to tell Lady Sophia about this- the other day, she was cataloging a scrapbook of autographs that someone had collected between 1897-1904 from various famous people- including Dame Nellie Melba! --------------------------- on Fri. Oct 4, Mat the cat in Green wrote: >>But you've already done the capricous, curse-threatening thing. << Ah, but if you will recall, my dear Mat, the Lilac Fairy had a perfectly good reason to threaten you with a curse. You were very rude and disrespectful to her! However, you more than redeemed yourself by saying such lovely things about her humble literary effort (AbForsh). The Lilac Fairy is glad you *spoke up*, though, Mat. You have reminded her that, even as she was being so cruel to poor Cennydd about neglecting her and the Ladies, <---capricious mood swing she herself has been sadly neglecting her responsibilities as the ChairFairy of the LotPW. She would like to take this opportunity to do something she should have done long ago. Ahem. To the Ladies of the Pink Wand: The Lilac Fairy hereby formally nominates The Cat in Green as a candidate for elevation to the Pantheon of Objects of Unrequited Love/Lust. Does any Lady second his nomination? And she thinks that, even though he's not officially an OoUL/L yet, Mat should be invited to the celebration at The Bower this weekend so all the Ladies can check him out before the final vote! The Lilac Fairy will be ready to receive guests at midnight Friday IFT (Imaginary Fairy Time), and the party will go on until midnight Sunday. She has also invited lots of *friendly* (nudge nudge wink wink) bisexual fairy ladies, gentlemen and sheep. (And because someone is bound to ask, yes, the sheep are also bisexual!) The Lilac Fairy Lady of the Pink Wand First Runner-Up in the Lady Treesa Impersonators Competition (Kory won, his costume was better) Lee Cox San Francisco Performing Arts Library & Museum (SF PALM) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:06:45 GMT From: ajfabbey-+AT+-powerup.com.au To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Message-ID: <199610090706.HAA24189-+AT+-enterprise.powerup.com.au> Hi, thought I'd let you know I'm sitting back here taking note :) and wondering if I dare get my feet wet ;) - and decided I would! :D I've been reading with interest for the last few days trying to work out where I fit in with all this - and not sure yet that I do. Anyway, I'm here. I'm not sure if I should be issuing a spoiler alert about now or not. My next comment/question isn't meant to be a spoiler though. I haven't read many of Misty's book - because there aren't many available here. (I was lucky enough to pick up the LHM trilogy as a set from a second hand book store and I had AoQ already). I enjoyed BG & WG and started on SW. Am I missing something? It seems as though some of SW is dependent on previous books but I don't know which ones. - An'desha is recovering from possession of a great evil - is this story told in an earlier book? I found the first two chapters hard to read. Once past them I was fine. I loved Sacred Ground and hope she writes some more in this vein. Enough from me. Nice to *meet* you all. AJ - Bard and Renunciate (*can* I be a Renunciate too?), name yet to be chosen BTW are there any references to female shaychs? Or it is exclusively male? Adrianne ajfabbey-+AT+-powerup.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 17:33:24 +0930 From: "Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid: Degrees/ Message-ID: <9610090803.AA79804-+AT+-bilbo.cc.flinders.edu.au> Cennydd said "Should there be a "No invoking advanced degrees" rule? Or should we just flame anyone who does so on an informal, "don't patronize me" basis? Actually, this second option is the current one, and it seems to be an unpopular choice." I think that the "flaunting" degrees as a proof of expertise should be a rule. One may wish to state their views on a subject based on their own reading and research but I guess we all have to recognise that it is biased. No I don't want to enter a debate on pure research etc I just think that we read and research in areas that interest us and we already have our own preconceived idea on the issue. So let us all recognise our uniqueness and our own inherent biases and live with them. Goddess, you can tell I'm also in academe - words (No offense, Cennydd an ackowledgement of my own issues) There is a difference between education and knowledge - let us all respect each other's knowledge and experiences. }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAT - 2 Decades - well done - (Wish, I could remember mine grumble- envy) ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] I like the mixture of discussion on this list. Yes sometimes it gets a bit heavy but that balances the fluff. The fact that we can discuss "flaming" so openly is great and heartening. There is a wonderful quirky humour in so many of the sendings that makes it fun for me. Ok lets try and keep deep discussion on one subject restricted to a week but don't lets stifle it all together. I reckon it shows the high degree of knowledge (pun absolutely intended - grimace) of all list members. No matter how tightly economic rationalism is biting here, you, my list sibs always make me feel better. Zen Hugs++++ to you all. Wind to thy wings, list sibs Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 04:09:01 +0000 From: "Heather D. Wegemer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Books between Arrows and Mage Storms Message-ID: <199610090809.EAA19528-+AT+-cwconnect.ca> > (I was > lucky enough to pick up the LHM trilogy as a set from a second hand book > store and I had AoQ already). I enjoyed BG & WG and started on SW. Am I > missing something? It seems as though some of SW is dependent on previous > books but I don't know which ones. - An'desha is recovering from possession > of a great evil - is this story told in an earlier book? I found the first > two chapters hard to read. You sure did. Winds of Fate, Winds of Change, and Winds of Fury belong on your shopping list. Have a good read ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 04:14:59 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Response to Adrienne Message-ID: <09OCT96.04589804.0064.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Welcome, luv, to the Mistylist. Of course you can be a renunciate. As it happens, it's practically On Topic, since MZB has asked Misty to take over the Darkover series when she (Bradley) is no longer able to write. So someday (God willing, not soon), Renunciates will be fair game around here, right along with Heralds, Free Bards, Guardians, and the rest. Yes, I don't wonder you had trouble making sense out of the Storm trilogy. You skipped its immediate predecessor, the Winds trilogy (Winds of Fate, Winds of Change, Winds of Fury -- even in that order...I think). This will not only wrap up the Ancar nonsense (notice he's still hanging about after Arrows?), but let you in on several little secrets of Velgarth, and introduce characters like Darkwind, Firesong, and An'desha, whom you will Need to Know if you hope to read Storms effectively. And speaking of Need...three other books that are relevant and will probably help you out are Oathbound, Oathbreakers, and By the Sword. The last of those is the one directly related to the Matter of Valdemar, but the other two are loosely connected, and quite a lot of fun. Get to it! I hope you didn't think Misty was a *cheap* hobby Fancy that, you're right, there AREN'T a lot of female shaych characters are there? Who would have noticed? Don't mind Heather, she's just bitter. Actually, we know they exist, because we've heard of them. Sherrill and Keren and Ylsa were all shaych. One of Vanyel's children ended up being raised by a female couple in his sister's merc company (MPromise). Tarma and Kethry in Oathbound pose as lovers while undercover (no, not under *the* covers...that would be different). Talia mentions that Holderkin underwives get romantically involved on a relatively regular basis. (No, I don't pay much attention to these references -- why would you ask?) Ah, here's a related question. The Darkover trilogy about the Renunciates -- Shattered Chain, Thendara House, and City of Sorcery. Should I read them? I loved Mists of Avalon, but I loathed the Trillium books, and I was relatively happy with Firebrand, so all in all I don't know where I stand on MZB (except that I wish she'd accept one of my short stories for once). A Darkover fan told me she thought those were among the dullest of the Darkover books, so I'm leery -- though I read an anthology called Free Amazons of Somethingorother, and I liked it. I don't know, what do y'all think about them? Are they worth the effort? HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu "The madness of demons is rage -- the madness of angels, hope." --A.A. Attanasio, *The Dragon & the Unicorn* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 07:19:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jaguar To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Response to Adrienne Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Hth. wrote: > Ah, here's a related question. The Darkover trilogy about the > Renunciates -- Shattered Chain, Thendara House, and City of Sorcery. > Should I read them? I loved Mists of Avalon, but I loathed the Trillium > books, and I was relatively happy with Firebrand, so all in all I don't > know where I stand on MZB (except that I wish she'd accept one of my > short stories for once). A Darkover fan told me she thought those were > among the dullest of the Darkover books, so I'm leery -- though I read > an anthology called Free Amazons of Somethingorother, and I liked it. I > don't know, what do y'all think about them? Are they worth the effort? > Yes! Yes! Yes! Shattered Chain and Thendara House are WONDERFUL!!! Not as good as Swordspoint....I'd say the LHM of Darkover. POssibly, it's hard to tell with Darkover, there are a lot of good books. I don't know about City of Sorcery...I haven't read that in a long time. I do, however, highly recommend Shattered Chain, etc. There are some very niice characters there...Magda and Camilla and Jaelle are three of my fave Darkoverans. --------------------------------- JAGUAR -------------------------------------- Leader of the Cat People "... intimidating. Ex-marine, I understand." Goddess of Large Hunter Cats "I'm an ex-mercenary, I never intimidated Chronicler of the Mage Wars anyone. I killed them." Lady in Green -- Kermit, KF:tLC -----MageWar Archives: http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen/magewar/archives.html--- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:48:46 +0100 (BST) From: Ailsa Reid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: Response to Adrienne Message-ID: <199610091148.MAA07787-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk> HTH said: >Ah, here's a related question. The Darkover trilogy about the >Renunciates -- Shattered Chain, Thendara House, and City of Sorcery. >Should I read them? I loved Mists of Avalon, but I loathed the Trillium >books, and I was relatively happy with Firebrand, so all in all I don't >know where I stand on MZB (except that I wish she'd accept one of my >short stories for once). A Darkover fan told me she thought those were >among the dullest of the Darkover books, so I'm leery -- though I read >an anthology called Free Amazons of Somethingorother, and I liked it. I >don't know, what do y'all think about them? Are they worth the effort? All I can say is READ THEM!!!!! They are good (well I think so) and they make me _think_ about things too :> (well, Thendara House does) Unfortunately the local library has lost City of Sorcery :( ____________________________________________________________________________ | Ailsa Reid | | Take the hidden paths which run, | | areid-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk West of the moon, East of the sun. | | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 866 *********************************