MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 888

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Escapism & C.S. Lewis / Cennydd & Academic Jargon
	by LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com
  2) Re: Vanyel and Bardic
	by jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin)
  3) JodyLee/Elspeth/LesMiz/Vanyel
	by "Hth." <R618-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU>
  4) Re: Braves Braidsson In Les Mis Induced Coma
	by Korendil <korendil-+AT+-icubed.net>
  5) Re: Vanyel and Bardic
	by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA
  6) Jissa being chosen
	by "Valerie Sanford" <lessing-+AT+-msn.com>
  7) FW: Felara, implications of Companions as reincarnated Heralds
	by "Valerie Sanford" <lessing-+AT+-msn.com>
  8) Pre-MW books/SG spoiler/new name
	by ajfabbey-+AT+-powerup.com.au
  9) Abrev. List/Elspeth
	by chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg
 10) Re: Recycling
	by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)
 11) LHM Grove Scene?
	by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)
 12) Re: kris/Talia
	by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)
 13) Re: Vanyel and Bardic
	by Chris & Sean Talbot <brujah-+AT+-idirect.com>
 14) Re: kris/Talia
	by Chris & Sean Talbot <brujah-+AT+-idirect.com>
 15) Van, Van and more Van!!!!!
	by Lady Wintersong <ckwok-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg>
 16) Re: Evalie/order of books
	by erikaplajer-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer)
 17) Re: LHM Grove Scene?
	by kaychang-+AT+-eden.com (CrystalSkye)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:36:37 -0400
From: LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Escapism & C.S. Lewis / Cennydd & Academic Jargon
Message-ID: <961019003635_1213040932-+AT+-emout18.mail.aol.com>

on Wed, 16 Oct 1996 the Eloquent Heather wrote:

>>Thank you, whoever you are, for posting that C.S. Lewis quote about
escapism being an accusation that only jailers use.  I've been thinking a lot
about it over the past week or so, and still am, off and on. I'm still not
entirely sure what I feel about it. <<

You're welcome!  The quote in question was:

"Escapism is a dirty word only to those who are by instinct jailors."

My mother told me that when I was in first grade, she went to a
parent-teacher conference, and the teacher said something like "Well, Lee
does tend to march to a different drummer. But don't worry, we'll soon get
her in step with everyone else."

To which my mother, to her everlasting credit replied, "Don't you dare! Let
her follow her own music!"

Following my own music often meant walking around the edges of the school
playground at recess, totally involved in making up stories in my head,
instead of playing with other kids. Teachers and administrators from
kindergarten through high school just didn't know what to DO with me! I
always felt they were my "jailors". 

And even at the age of 39-going-on-40 I am the Queen of Daydreamers, and yes,
I still stare at the same page for 15 minutes while I rewrite the story,
usually with my fantasy alter ego playing a main role (just like Talia did-
yes she WAS putting herself in Van's story! <g>) I have no problem keeping
fantasy separate from reality (except when it involves bookstores and credit
cards). I just LIKE fantasy, and I like playing in my head. 

>>but I do think that he [C.S. Lewis] didn't see as much of a gulf between
escapist literature and literature that adds to our understanding as I've
been seeing, which puts a somewhat new perspective on the whole question.<<

Why should there be any gulf at all? Why can't a story be entertaining,
escaspist AND add to the readers' understanding? I mentioned before that I've
just read most of Neil Gaiman's Sandman stories, which I think are a good
example of this type of literature. These stories ARE highly literate, and
got me to go back and reread some mythology I hadn't read in ages, and had me
thinking about some philosphical questions in ways I wouldn't have before. I
even figured out the messages in some recurring dreams I'd been having for
years because of something one of the stories jogged in my mind. And they
were entertaining and escapist. 

>> good article on Patricia Kenneally-Morrison's homepage about the dangers
of losing yourself to fantasy.  Anyone who's enjoyed this thread at all
should really go and read it.<<

Thanks for the ref., Heather. I'll check this out soon. I've been wanting to
read Kenneally-Morrison's stuff. Any tips on which book(s) to read first?

------------------
And the Exquisite Mage of Green Silences wrote:

>>I argue that the strategy of presentation is a classic example of textual
self-reference.  The text is refering to the process of projecting the actual
reader position into a text as part of larger strategy of assimilating the
actual reader position to the putative reader position.
*Eeeew, ick!  Academic jargon!  Naughty! Bad! Mustn't!* =) <<

<please imagine heavy breathing here> Ohhhh, he's doing it again! Cennydd,
adored one, you know what it does to the Lilac Fairy when you talk like that!
If the Lilac Fairy is properly contrite and promises not to be malicious
anymore will you explain about the correct useage of thee and thou again?
Please? <lowers her eyes humbly and flitters her wings hopefully>

The Lilac Fairy
Lady of the Pink Wand

Lee Cox
San Francisco Performing Arts Library & Museum (SF PALM)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:47:35 -0400
From: jmacjm19-+AT+-vcomm.net (gar&julie mclaughlin)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Vanyel and Bardic
Message-ID: <v01530500ae8dce296dae-+AT+-[204.253.92.102]>

Dyana said: (Regarding Vanyels gifts)

This has always bothered me too and by coincidence my copy of Mpawn
>opened itself to the right page 215 "Mindspeech, Fetching, Farsight,
>Foresight, As much Empathy as Tylendel had shown, (ECT).... And-irony of
>ironies-... the Bardic Gift" So, he has Bardic and then in MPromise on
>pg. 182 Van is talking to Jervis and says "'No. I didn't have the Gift"
>I wonder if he said that to spare any more hurt between him and Jervis?
>
Also, in Magic's promise, he seemed to imply he didnt have Bardic gift when
he first met Medrin. Remember, he said to him " You are better than I was,
even at fifteen.In a few years you are going to be better than I could ever
hope to be if I practiced every hour of my life. You have the Bardic Gift,
Lad, and that's something no amount of training will give".Seems to me what
Vanyel meant was bacause Medrin had the gift and he didnt, Medrin would be
better. So I dont think it was to just make Jervis feel better.And To
expand on Dyana's texted : "Vanyel had them all. Each channel she
tested-with the sole exception of Healing-was open;" Doesnt this mean he
didnt have the healing gift? Now, this is where I'm confused. We never saw
him with the Bardic gift, but we did see him with the healing gift. In
Magic's Price when he fixes Stephens fingers the first time it says " With
the care the raw skin merited, he wrapped each finger in a cushion of
bandage , then closed his eyes and invoked the tiny spark of healing HE had
along with his empathy" (pg 49.) Anyone what to explain this one to me?


BTW, I'm currently reading WG, and I've got a question. Zhaneel calls Ma'ar
"Kiamver Ma'ar". Is Kiamver his first name or his title? Just wondering.

Ok, thats it for me!
Wind to thy wings!
Julie (hoping to be) Goddess of Fields and Fens



------------------------------

Date:        Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:42:46 CST
From: "Hth." <R618-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: JodyLee/Elspeth/LesMiz/Vanyel
Message-ID:  <19OCT96.00770043.0061.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU>

Drab?  The covers of Vows & Honor?  Honey, I think they're COOL.  And
you know what else?  I like the kinda abstract look to the newer covers.
What can I say?  It's a style.  It's groovy.  Anyone want to jump in on
the longstanding argument between me and my she'enedra?  Does Tashir
look like a BIG DORK on the cover of MPromise...or what?  What's with
the HAIRCUT, anyway??  That's so out it was never in.  My favorite cover
is still MPrice, though, just because I'm into sleeves, and Van had a
cool sleeve in that pic.  Thumbs up on the sleeve thing.

Whoops!  Now they've done it!  Here's the old "Elspeth: Bitch or Not
Bitch?" argument.  Well, for the record, I think she's a bitch, but it
doesn't bother me.  It bothered me that she was boring.  But then, no
one should ask me anything about the Winds series.  I almost swore off
Misty forever after reading it, I disliked it that much.  Probably I'd
enjoy it a little more if I reread it -- it's probably become worse in
my memory than it really was.  But all in all, I thought plot,
character, pacing, theme, and resolution all sucked sucked sucked.
Every other book I've read by Misty (except Sacred Ground) had, I
thought, SOME redeeming features.

Maybe there's something with this connection between Misty and Les Miz.
The summer Barbara and I met, one of our early connections was that we
both adored Les Miz, and she got me hooked on Misty that same summer.
We now have an apartment that's chock full of Misty books and copies of
Les Miz (we have every English language version of that musical, and two
in other languages).  So, yes, I guess I'd say that Misty had a role in
cementing our friendship.

After banging my head on the table for a while, I'm ready to talk about
Vanyel.  You know, he gets a lot of criticism for being "whiny," but the
truth is, he wasn't.  He wasn't dark and joyless at all.  Read the
beginning of MPromise.  At one of the worst, lowest moments of Van's
life in terms of sheer ability to cope, when his friend Jaysen walks
through the door, does he whine?  Does he launch into his life story and
demand sympathy?  Does he do any of the nasty things people are always
saying Vanyel does?  He does not.  He brightens up, he jokes, he's glad
to see his friend.  *Jays* mentions that Vanyel is a lonely man, and
Vanyel tries to kind of brush it off, but Jaysen makes him open up a
little.
   Often enough, Vanyel has to be the Bad Guy, simply by virtue of his
position at court.  He's the practical, occasionally severe one, because
he has to be.  He's stronger than Randale, so he's the first line of
defense when it comes to handling problems if at all possible without
troubling his dying friend.  Shavri is slowly going insane, so she's not
much help, and the Heralds are dying all around him.  So although he's
not *joyless,* he's busy, and he's tired.  Of course he is!  I sure as
hell would be.
   But still, he's caring and sweet with Jisa, not dark and moody.  He
jokes around with the head Bard lady, the one with the headaches.  He
goes out of his way to do little things for other people, like bandaging
up the Bard when no one else feels like they have time to deal with him.
Vanyel is a kind, thoughtful, sensitive man who goes way out of his way
to avoid foisting his problems off on other people.  He is not
determined to ruin everyone else's day or play the "I have it worse than
you do" game.  In fact, one of his most serious failings is that he
*doesn't* want to "burden" his friends, and he becomes a very
inward-turned, self-sufficient person because he hates for people to see
him depressed and unfulfilled.
   Remember, Vanyel is living for many, many years through something
that *kills* most people outright.  He's in as much pain as Randale,
only because there are no outward symptoms, because he *can* still
function through the pain, people expect him to.  They depend on him.
And so he is constantly, at every turn, the Vanyel that other people
need him to be, because he knows that his chance of being happy for
himself died when he was fifteen.
   Is it not enough that he half-kills himself trying to function,
trying to focus on what's best for everyone else?  Does he have to be
happy inside, genuinely perky and positive?  Vanyel was happy once, with
his whole being, and he had it ripped out of him along with much
physical, psychological, psychic, and emotional pain, and the chances
that he will ever experience that kind of happiness again on this side
of death are, for all practical purposes, nil.  *Think* about what
you're asking from him, to forget all that and just go on with his life.
   Any and all charges that Vanyel was determined to suck the joy out of
life, his or anyone else's, or that he demanded sympathy from everyone
around him, are simply not true.  Read the bloody trilogy.  That's *not*
how Vanyel behaved.  All the infamous "whining" was internal, so
internal as to be almost cancerous.
   Yes, it can be emotionally wringing to live inside that kind of
character, and the experience may not be everyone's cup of tea.  Both my
parents are like that: they simply refuse to watch/read any story that
they know in advance is going to be depressing, simply because they're
very empathetic people, and that kind of vicarious pain is not fun for
them.  (I, on the other hand, am totally masochistic, and I live for
vicarious pain.  We sometimes have trouble picking a movie together.)
   But please, blame that on the fact that your tastes don't intersect
with that particular series, not by misinterpreting the character.  Or
say, "Hey, Vanyel's a nice guy, but I prefer hanging out with more
cheerful people." He doesn't have to be your best friend.
   The idea, however, that he ought to feel differently for your
amusement -- at penalty of being smacked around, no less -- is
intolerably arrogant.  He is not going to *feel differently.* He is not
in control of that.  Can I say again, most people drop dead on the spot
when they watch a lifebonded mate die horribly?  It's a psychic wound,
not just an emotional loss such as we humans experience when a loved one
dies.  It would be just plain idiotic to have Vanyel all chipper and
optimistic because a few years have gone by.  He *is* in control of how
he behaves, and I think his behavior is admirable, magnanimous, and
heroic in the truest sense of the word.  He refuses to let his personal
tragedy hurt anyone else, and tries to use the life he doesn't really
want anymore to the advantage of friends and strangers alike.  Slap him
and risk the wrath of the righteous.
   AotQ was good, but it was no LHM.



HTH
r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 02:14:42 -0400
From: Korendil <korendil-+AT+-icubed.net>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Braves Braidsson In Les Mis Induced Coma
Message-ID: <9610190619.AA23794-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net>

>Speaking of *good*, I am listening to my latest Loreena McKennitt CD.  I
>am not crying any more, but I was earlier.  This is one of her first
>albums, "Elemental," and most of the songs are traditionals that she has
>arranged (not particularly well--you can tell she is still finding her
>confidence), but it also has a song that she wrote the music for called
>"Stolen Child" (the lyrics are Yeat's poem).  It is the most unbelievably
>poignant, haunting marriage of music and lyrics.  The first time I played
>it (a few hours ago), I just froze and sat there and cried.  This *is* the
>voice of Faerie calling out to the lost human souls of this wretched
>world. ~Come away, O human child / to the waters and the wild / with a
>faery, hand in hand / for the world's more full of weeping / than you can
>understand.~  The other truly stellar piece on the album is "Lullaby."
>Loreena is the GGK of music, in my opinion.  If you have not yet
>discovered her, go do so.  If for no other reason, you will be able to
>hear what someone with the Bardic Gift sounds like (and yes, you can
>record it, apparently).

Blah. HA had a ver of Stolen Child (a really kewl poem, btw...) on 
Wanderlust years ago. And NO-ONE can sing better than HA. Nuff said. BTW, 
I'm listeing to MY latest McKennitt, Visit, right now...~Canvas and 
laterns dancing, dancing / All Souls Night~

>Oh, shush!  LHM is good, but it is no AotQ.  And Van is to annoying and
>frustrating to dump on someone without warning.  BTW, in the thread of
>whether people project themselves into stories, I find that I project
>myself into the Van books very often, usually because I want to smack him
>so hard he will be seeing stars for a month.  Talk about someone who is
>determined to stamp out any possibility of fun or joy in life.

Riight...LHM ISN'T AotQ. It's better;> OK..so van gets.....annoying...at 
times. But all together the series is better. And we don't have whiny 
Talia going on and on about how ethical empathy..blah..I'll take "But 
what if my enemies attack my loved ones to get at me?! Oh, Lendel..I need 
you!" any day over "B--bu--but, is it really RIGHT to use my gods given 
Gift right now? I don't know! Do I love Dirk? I dunno...". OK, I lie. I 
would have if MIsty didn't copy the enemies-attacking-family broods in so 
many books.

>Um, ok.  I don't know the price, but the title is definitely "The Faces of
>Fantasy" and it is by a female photographer named Peritt or somesuch.  I
>assume that any bookstore can do a price check and order it for you.
>

Hmm...gotta get that next time I'm at some bookstore (tomorrow, 
actually). And I don't careif it's expensive. The bit--erm, Mother <g> 
has been very nice lately..she won't mind...mwehehehe...oh, btw, people: 
TMBG HAS A NEW CD!!!!!<--- It's called Factory Showroom and it came out 
the 8th so if your stores don't have it and you're in the US, you can 
whine and rant even more so than with SB (Uh..uh...it..um...well, it'll 
be in sometime in october...). 

>BTW, for all of you out there who are wondering what the AbFab Mage of the
>Green Silences looks like, you can see me (and more of Glamour Shots
>styling magic) on my home page now.  Just point your web-browsers to
>"http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html"  =)

Ooo! You finally put one up! <fires up nutscrap and checks it out> 
hmm..don't smile so much, and get rid of the mustache;P

>No, dear.  Storm Signals is about "Spiffy"!  Skiff is the name of the
>sentient magic barge in the Golden Griffon.  Really, Summersong will be
>so disappointed that you didn't remember her alter-ego's star turn. =)

Oh....that's right. Dunno how I got mistaken...Summersong, will you take 
these Stay-Up-All-Night-And-Not-Fall-Asleep-In-Math-The-Next-Day Pills as 
a suitable penance gift?

>>Was NOT one of her better books. In fact, IMO, the whole series of these
>>books sucked. I know this must be true because it is the **only** Misty-book
>>I've ever read  just once, and I couldn't even begin the other one after it 
--
>>Something Frost and Fire...
>
>I'll take your word for it. ^_^

You're both right. Very right. I'll take it to the 10th power, btw 
<mega-sheeps from jake-the-bardic-tales-liker>

><please imagine heavy breathing here> Ohhhh, he's doing it again! Cennydd,
>adored one, you know what it does to the Lilac Fairy when you talk like that!
>If the Lilac Fairy is properly contrite and promises not to be malicious
>anymore will you explain about the correct useage of thee and thou again?
>Please? <lowers her eyes humbly and flitters her wings hopefully>

Hmm..I don't recall this discussion...please, Ken...explain. NOW. 
<pointed look at whip>

>Doesnt this mean he
>didnt have the healing gift? Now, this is where I'm confused. We never saw
>him with the Bardic gift, but we did see him with the healing gift. In
>Magic's Price when he fixes Stephens fingers the first time it says " With
>the care the raw skin merited, he wrapped each finger in a cushion of
>bandage , then closed his eyes and invoked the tiny spark of healing HE had
>along with his empathy" (pg 49.) Anyone what to explain this one to me?

First of all, Van DID HAVE THE BARDIC GIFT. He didn't use it much, but by 
the gods he had it. IIRC, didn't he have to work to not use it while he 
incognito in MPromise? And the actual quote, iirc, is along the lines 
that all except the healing gift were blown WIDE Open. SLight difference.

>Does Tashir
>look like a BIG DORK on the cover of MPromise...or what?  What's with
>the HAIRCUT, anyway?

Oh, that's Lendel? I thought it was one of Treesa's maids <g>. 
Yeah...Tashir is the one blemish in an otherwise great cover (Mpromise is 
my favorite Misty cover and least favorite LHM)

> In fact, one of his most serious failings is that he
>*doesn't* want to "burden" his friends, and he becomes a very
>inward-turned, self-sufficient person because he hates for people to see
>him depressed and unfulfilled.

Which is exactly what I mean by "whiny"..he's alays going on inside his 
head and to Stef about he he doesn't want to form a relationship b/c 
anyone he's close to is a target...he goes over it time and again to the 
point you wanna skip over those sections as muchyou want to the rape.

> AotQ was good, but it was no LHM.

WOOHOO!!!!! Right on, Heather;>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 02:39:44 -0500
From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Vanyel and Bardic
Message-ID: <199610190648.CAA07229-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA>

Julie said:
>>Remember, [Vanyel] said to [Medren] " You are better than I was, even at 
fifteen.In a few years you are going to be better than I could ever hope to be 
if I practiced every hour of my life. You have the Bardic Gift, Lad, and 
that's something no amount of training will give".Seems to me what Vanyel 
meant was bacause Medrin had the gift and he didnt, Medrin would be better. So 
I dont think it was to just make Jervis feel better.<<

Thank you for the Medren quote to help prove my point!

Julie also said:
>> "Vanyel had them all. Each channel she tested-with the sole exception of 
Healing-was open;" Doesnt this mean he didnt have the healing gift? Now, this 
is where I'm confused. We never saw him with the Bardic gift, but we did see 
him with the healing gift.<<

My guess is that either the Healing was a little trickle, and slowly opened, 
or didn't seem open when compared to the other channels?
Much as I hate to say this, it really sounds/feels like Misty either got 
confused about which one he had and which one he didn't, or just plain changed 
her mind.
Does anyone remember him having/using Healing other than in MPrice?  I know 
there's also the bit where he's trapped in that spell, and that Healer guy 
sees that Vanyel is "wrapped in a fine net of Healing" or something like that, 
with the implication that he did it himself.

--------------------------------------------

Someone must have asked about "which scenes made you cry?", or else everybody 
just likes to include it, so I'll include the one that's in my head now.

Didn't you just bawl and convulse in a little fetal position curl when you 
read the scene in MPrice with the stuff about "riding my fine white horse" and 
saddles being placed on other than Companions?  Actually the earlier stuff 
with what's-his-name(no, don't send a gazillion posts telling me what his name 
is) the errand boy made my cheeks salty, too.

Sorry, I'm in a bit of a more than mellow mood.  I would yell out why, but I 
don't think personal relationships that have nothing to do with Misty would be 
appreciated on this post.

Wind to thy wings,

Deniz Sarikaya, soon-to-be (I hope) Coddess[sic] of whiiiiiiining, Hot Climes, 
and Freaks.


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 05:01:15 UT
From: "Valerie Sanford" <lessing-+AT+-msn.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Jissa being chosen
Message-ID: <UPMAIL05.199610190715110749-+AT+-msn.com>

Mat the Cat in Green wrote:

Ah, but there is the fact that, in AotQ, it's said that most MO are
already Heralds when the MOC Chooses them.  This implies (to me at
least) that another Companion is acting as a "place holder" so
that the new MO is ready when the old one dies.  Talia could be
an anomaly b/c Talamir was murdered, so the Companions hadn't
had a chance to get her Chosen.  Like I said before, Jisa
probably didn't get her place-holder since she was getting
training anyway.  Besides, the Companions probably knew
that Van, Savil, & Co. knew that Jisa would be MO, so they
didn't bother.  (did that last part make sense?)

My Reply:

Van tells Shavri that Jisa won't be chose until Taver chooses her, but that if 
necessary a non-bonding companion will choose her for special training, etc. 
Talia was chose specifically to be Monarch's Own, went through her training as 
Monarch's Own, except that she didn't have full vote on the council.  When 
Jisa marries Taver, we don't really know if that speeds up or slows down her 
need to be chosen.  Either way, the provision for training has been made, 
which is the point of being chosen early.



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 04:52:03 UT
From: "Valerie Sanford" <lessing-+AT+-msn.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: FW: Felara, implications of Companions as reincarnated Heralds
Message-ID: <UPMAIL05.199610190715100698-+AT+-msn.com>



----------
I believe the compaions are Very Very AWARE of what and who they are.  Their 
actions seem to make that very clear.
Florian,  Yfades, Rolan, Gwena... they all act on a "plan".  Also they know 
they don't know everything - with the possible exception of Gwena, who we know 
as a very young companoin - possibly a re-incarnation of one of the 
herald-mages-in-training that was killed by "Master Laerth."   That would 
explain why her thinking is a little "naïve" and young sometimes, but also why 
a mage-companion was needed. 

The Compaions are not Gods, just messengers, Heralds who have gone before and 
know that their mission is not done.  The "conspiratorial style in which they 
conduct themselves make it pretty clear - they know.

We also see different races and even Van "seeing" their nature - Van sees 
Yfades as a laughing woman and the Kyree know what they are - so infact does 
Tarma and her Goddess - she says they are like her Black Riders. 




 
> Here's a query, though.  Do you entities feel that Companions 
> universally know that they are reincarnated Heralds?  If they do, do 
> they retain full memories of their past lives (which would explain 
> the overlaid images), or are the memories in the unconcious mind, to 
> act as instinct?
> 
>
 
I think the Companions know who and what they were in their former lives. 
At the end of MPromise, the Shadow-Lover gives Van a choice--either go to
the Havens or return to Valdemar.  I think whenever a Herald dies, he/she
gets a simialr choice--either go to the Havens or come back as a Companion. 
If this choice is a conscious one, I don't see how they would forget what
they once were.  And, if they had forgotten, why have the Comapnions taken
great pains over the years to make sure their Chosen don't find out exactly
what they are/were.  Some outlanders can see their true natures (just look
at Karal, and to some extent Darkwind).  Just my $.02

Nina 


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:02:23 GMT
From: ajfabbey-+AT+-powerup.com.au
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Pre-MW books/SG spoiler/new name
Message-ID: <199610190802.IAA21334-+AT+-enterprise.powerup.com.au>

Lady Wintersong wrote:

>Lori asked:
>>What I really want to know today is 
>>why there isn't a book written explain Urtho and his gryphons?  
>
>That's what I've been nagging about the MW series. BG should have been the
>last book, not the first. The first 2 should have talked about Urtho and how
>the mage wars started.
>
>
>

That's amazing - I was thinking that exact same thought this morning! I
enjoyed Black Griffin very much- even though it was a year since I'd read
AoQ which I'd totally forgotten (which for me at least knocks out the
argument about reading order as some people have cited) - and WG was okay
but so far I don't see a lot of point to SG (I'm about two-thirds of the way
through) See Spoiler Alert below if you want to know more!  There was so
much alluded to in BG concerning past history that it seems as though there
must have been even earlier books. Coming in at the end of a war seems such
a waste of creative energy! It leaves so many questoins like how Urtho
created his creatures, why did Ma'ar turn to the dark side, how did the war
start in the first place. I liked the story of Amberdrake's early life and
there's a whole book just there!

Spoiler Alert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I was very disappointed with the first hundred pages of SG. I could have
been reading any contemporary novel about familes and their relationships
and how the children have to fight for their independence and to come out
from under the shadodw of famous parents. IMOSHO, so much of that was so
obvious that one chapter (or twenty pages) would have been more than enough
to set the scene. I didn't start to enjoy the book until Tad and Blade
actually left White Gryphon and headed off on their assignment. I get the
feeling that Misty doesn't really trust her readers to understand the point
unless it hits them in the face (or was that the plank to the back of the
head? :>) LHM was much more subtle, IMO.



I've been thinking about a suitable name for myself - are there any specific
protocols regarding the choosing of names?  Anyway, I'm toying with the
sound of Bardowl :D
What d'you think?

Adrianne, Bardowl of the South
Adrianne
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Laugh for me. Joy is in the ears that hear.'
Foamfollower, First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ajfabbey-+AT+-powerup.com.au


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:55:11 -0700
From: chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Abrev. List/Elspeth
Message-ID: <199610200255.TAA25536-+AT+-rgs.rgs.edu.sg>

Heyla everyone! Since exams are over, I am here to check for any newbies
that needs the list of abrev. we use here on the mailing list. I manage to
catch sight of some newbies but I think I missed some of the newbies. So for
all those who I missed, could you drop me a line. As for the others, you
could also drop me a line to ask for one such copy.

-+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+-

As for the Elspeth is a bitch thingy, I don't really think she is a bitch. I
think it was just because of Hulda's influence, it takes time for bad
influence to 'wear off'. I don't know, maybe it was all those peer support
training sessions I have been attending that is making me think this way.

-+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+--+AT+-

That's all for now.

Stormwind 
--Goddess of Abrev. List and the Vast Sky
Learning is a treasure which accompanies its owner everywhere.
--Anonymous


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:26:26 -0400
From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Recycling
Message-ID: <9610191226.AA13869-+AT+-water.waterw.com>

Jeanne Hedge theorized:
>>Because Caryo would be half the spirit and Selenay would be the other half
>>of the spirit.  Caryo knows he's not whole, but Selenay doesn't and goes on
>>with her life as normal.  Then, when Selenay's about 12-13, Caryo decides
>>it's time, goes out in search of his other half, and Chooses Selenay (so
>>instead of 2 partial spirits running around, we now have one whole spirit).
>>And that would also explain (maybe)the Herald-Companion bond, why there's
>>such a shock on the part of the new Herald when they are Chosen (they are
>>whole for the first time in their lives), and why Heralds (or Companions)
>>tend to die when (or shortly after) their other "half" does: they can't live
>>with half a soul anymore.

Korendil replied:
>It just doesn't work..what about GB companions? THey're divided multiple 
>times, so wossisname, the old MO, Talia, and Rolan are all the same 
>spirit?

CrystalSkye commented:
>Don't forget Lancir, Taver, Shavri, and Jisa!
>
>Maybe it only works with non GB Companions. I dunno.

Perhaps...  as it says in Arrows, the MOC has *lots* of experience <g>

Korendil replied:
>Ach..I don't like the sound of theories with loads of exceptions..

But, as you (and many other people) keep saying, Grove Born's are special,
and are NOT recycled Heralds.  Therefore the theory only works for non-GBs,
and there are no previously unknown exceptions.



Jeanne Hedge


http://www.accsyst.com/jhedge/

                                 *   *   *

TWICE, adv.  Once too often.

                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:26:28 -0400
From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: LHM Grove Scene?
Message-ID: <9610191226.AA13872-+AT+-water.waterw.com>

someone wrote:
>I agree with Esme and Julia(?) that you should read the books
>in the order that they were written.  For one thing, if you don't read the
>"infamous" training class scene in AotQ, you will be missing a huge chunk
>of info. 

Korendil replied:
>Oh? What about the 
>non-at-famous-as-the-Orientation-meeting-scene-but-still-informative-grove-
>scene in LHM? Lendel relaizes that Van doesn't know anything about gifts 
>(and at the time, if we're new to the books, like I was, nor do we) and 
>explains them.

*What* grove-scene?  Even though you just mentioned it, I cannot remember
any grove-scene like you describe in LHM.  Besides, the Orientation class
(and the Gifts class) explain about Gifts.  Is this grove-scene covering
ground we've already been over in Arrows?


Jeanne Hedge


http://www.accsyst.com/jhedge/

                                 *   *   *

TWICE, adv.  Once too often.

                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:26:30 -0400
From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: kris/Talia
Message-ID: <9610191226.AA13879-+AT+-water.waterw.com>

Jacquelle asked:
>Was anyone able to find the reference in AFall where, I think, Kris 
>pulled Talia up in front of him as they tried to escape on Tantris 
>and then they galloped into a hail of arrows--yet Kris' body shielded 
>Talia from being mortally wounded.  Did I post this before, or was I 
>only dreaming?  (Must have been during one of those frustrating Star 
>Trek eps when I was dreaming myself into it  :))  Did Kris pull Talia 
>up in FRONT of him, or do I remember wrongly?  If so, how is it that 
>his body shields her from major harm? I DO remember that, if nothing 
>else.

<opening Arrow's Fall>
Kris pulls Talia up in front of him. They gallop into a hail of arrows.
Talia gets an arrow in the shoulder, and is thrown off... <ah-hah! here's
what you're after>:

"Kris lay crumpled beside the motionless body of Tantris.....   He was
transfixed by arrows so that he looked like a straw target -- but a target
that bled; it had been his body and Tantris' that had shielded her."

Sounds like Kris shielded her from the rear, and Tantris from the front.  I
wonder if it would have worked out that way if she were taller?





Jeanne Hedge


http://www.accsyst.com/jhedge/

                                 *   *   *

TWICE, adv.  Once too often.

                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:28:02 -0400
From: Chris & Sean Talbot <brujah-+AT+-idirect.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Vanyel and Bardic
Message-ID: <199610191328.JAA17030-+AT+-nemesis.idirect.com>

At 12:34 AM 10/19/96 +0100, you wrote:
>dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA wrote:
>> 
>> I have my question.
>> Prepare to be stunned.
>> This is my right zinger of a question.
>> Get ready.
>> Here we go.
>> I forgot.
>> No, all jokes aside, this is it.
>> How should I word it?
>> Ok, I'm really asking now.
>> 
>> Do you remember when in MPawn, Vanyel gets blasted open and Joshe (I'm not
>> sure that was his name) and Savil checked him out?  Good.
>> Now, do you remember the list of gifts that Savil said Vanyel had?  I don't
>> have my book, but here they are as I remember them:
>>         Mindspeech (both receiving and sending)
>>         Fetching
>>         the "all important Mage Gift"
>>         Empathy
>>         "enough Firestarting to ensure he would never need another match."
>>         "and, as though Gods had taken some strange sort of pittance, BARDIC
>>                 GIFT" (shouting mine)
>> Do you remember that?  Somebody who has their books can textevd it, but I'm
>> |absolutely| +positive+ she said he had Bardic.
>> HOW COME HE NEVER, EVER KNOWS IT AND IN FACT OBSESSES ABOUT NOT HAVING BARDIC
>> EVERY NOW AND THEN?????????     WHAT'S UP WITH THAT???????
>> If he's such a powerful mage, he has to know every aspect of himself as
>> intimately as possible (except his emotions, he never did think clearly when
>> it came to matters of the heart).
>> I hate to say this, but was this another matter of Misty forgetting or not
>> thinking things through?  It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
>> 
>> Proudly,
>> 
>> Deniz "Furry Rescuer" Sarikaya, soon-to-be (I hope) Coddess[sic] of Freaks,
>> whiiiiiiining, and Hot Climes.
>> This has always bothered me too and by coincidence my copy of Mpawn 
>opened itself to the right page 215 "Mindspeech, Fetching, Farsight, 
>Foresight, As much Empathy as Tylendel had shown, (ECT).... And-irony of 
>ironies-... the Bardic Gift" So, he has Bardic and then in MPromise on 
>pg. 182 Van is talking to Jervis and says "'No. I didn't have the Gift"
>I wonder if he said that to spare any more hurt between him and Jervis?
>                         Dyana
>

They also said that he didn't have healing someting on the lines.  All his
channels were opened recently to their fullest extent except for his healing
conduit.   So that should have meant he had no healing gift but I think she
may have made have made a mistake on the book about Bardic.

Aistes


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:31:05 -0400
From: Chris & Sean Talbot <brujah-+AT+-idirect.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: kris/Talia
Message-ID: <199610191331.JAA18018-+AT+-nemesis.idirect.com>

At 01:30 AM 10/19/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Was anyone able to find the reference in AFall where, I think, Kris 
>pulled Talia up in front of him as they tried to escape on Tantris 
>and then they galloped into a hail of arrows--yet Kris' body shielded 
>Talia from being mortally wounded.  Did I post this before, or was I 
>only dreaming?  (Must have been during one of those frustrating Star 
>Trek eps when I was dreaming myself into it  :))  Did Kris pull Talia 
>up in FRONT of him, or do I remember wrongly?  If so, how is it that 
>his body shields her from major harm? I DO remember that, if nothing 
>else.
>WTTW,
>Jacquelle
>
>:Really, Chosen, you need a better signature than this.:
>:Yes, oh, Wisest of the Wise.:
><snort>
>

It was there arms caught forearms.  He pulled her up in front of him.  But
she was still trying to get balanced and shielded again and it wasn't just
Kris that shielded her it was also Tantris.  Teh way I got that part was
that she was still trying to get settled and still trying to shield until
the time when they walked through into the arrows.

Aistes


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:51:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Lady Wintersong <ckwok-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Van, Van and more Van!!!!!
Message-ID: <199610191351.OAA15449-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk>

Can you tell I love that guy? The same way I love Tarma? <long-suffering
sigh> (Don't tell anyone, but the same way I love Cennydd? :) It's one of
the ladies who should be in the Lilac Fairy's club but isn't speaking up)
And incidentally, I'm not bi. At least, I don't think so. <g>

I just want to say congrats to Heather's wonderful essay extolling the
virtues of Van. It expresses my sentiments exactly, 'cept that I wouldn't
have been able to do that 1/5 as well. You're damn right LHM isn't AotQ.
It's many many times better. :)

I think it's said somewhere that Van had just a trickle of Healing. Not much.

And Kory, you're right about MPromise's cover being the best of the lot, but
the book being the worst. Of LHM, that is.

Also about Cennydd getting rid of his moustache. :) He looks pretty good if
you if you cover the moustache. Positively yummy, in fact. <weg>

 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
  Zhai'helleva					& "You don't perform the 
 		   			     	& Minute Waltz more produc-
  Lady Wintersong, Lady In Green 	     	& tively by playing it in 
  htpp://members.tripod.com/~Wintersong/index	& 50 seconds"			
 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%				


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:43:59 EDT
From: erikaplajer-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Evalie/order of books
Message-ID: <19961019.094302.8279.0.ErikaPlajer-+AT+-juno.com>


On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:19:38 +0100 (BST) Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
writes:

>Not at all.  As one of the people who read the Misty books in order of
>publication (for the simple reason that I was reading them as they 

>any way spoil my enjoyment of LHM.  In fact, it made it more 
>interesting,
>since I was waiting 'til the end of the trilogy to find out whether 
>Van
>was really going to die the way the legends said he did.  Besides, as 

  I suppose that if the books are read in order they came, it is
different. I at first, when reading LHM (ooh lookee, I followed the way
everyone else describes them! :> ) thought that they were the only books
by Mercedes Lackey. I got wiser. :> It seems then, that she writes
stories for characters in other stories? That's interesting. Especially
that she can weave a tale from a tale.

>Gee, was this one of those parties where everyone brings the libation 
>of
>their choice, does body painting on each other, dances to funky house 
>remixes of sixties hits,plays the bisexual spin-the-bottle, and then
>things get a little out of control and people end up hiding behind 
>couches
>before they run off with one or two others to find a private place for
>some creative, frantic "friendliness"?  I have promised myself that I 

  Well, no, not really... but the rule holds, simply because we do VERY
strange things at times. Some of the poems and stories and songs we've
written about events scares people who just marginally know us. We really
aren't *that* bad, but there is a reason why only close friends are the
ones at these gettogethers. :>
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:49:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: kaychang-+AT+-eden.com (CrystalSkye)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: LHM Grove Scene?
Message-ID: <199610191549.KAA11063-+AT+-natashya.eden.com>

>*What* grove-scene?  Even though you just mentioned it, I cannot remember
>any grove-scene like you describe in LHM.  Besides, the Orientation class
>(and the Gifts class) explain about Gifts.  Is this grove-scene covering
>ground we've already been over in Arrows?

Forgive me if I got this wrong, but all my books are upstairs, I just got 
up, and my head hurts. :) What a lovely way to start the day.

Okay, I thinkthinkthinkthink it was when 'Lendel first took Van to meet 
Gala. After 'Lendel told the story of how *his* Gifts sorta "came into 
being" (forgive all obvious early-morning-fuzzy-headedness) and he mentions 
all the ones he has; Mage-Gift, Fetching, Empathy, and probably some ones 
that I've forgotten. Van, at this point, of course if confused 'cause he's 
never heard of all this 'fore, so 'Lendel has to 'splain every one of 'em.

*That* grove scene, right?

Terra Chang
Insanity is the playground of the unimaginative
*~*~*
"Is the world going crazy, or is it just *ME*??"
----
"And I say I'm dead... and I move."
*~*~*
CrystalSkye's Personal Universe! GO SEE IT! ;)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/6315/index.html


------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 888
*********************************