MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 900 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) FW: Misty Women by "Valerie Sanford" 2) Tarot and Valdemar by chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg 3) Falconsbane by "Hth." 4) Re: FAQ/women by Susan Cass 5) Re: reincarnation by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 6) apology by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu 7) Re: CotN/Help by ptamarin-+AT+-buttenet.com (Pat Tamarin) 8) Tailchaser's song by Jaguar 9) re: Misty wimmin/cuddles/MO/Ghost by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 10) Re: Misty Women , sun and shadow speculation by "Emily L Cartier" 11) Hello:) by Charlene Joan Falkiner 12) Re: Apologizes of sorts by Ken Hyde 13) Re: apology by Ken Hyde 14) Re: CotN/Help by Ken Hyde 15) re: Misty issues. by Michelle Nicole Reis 16) Re: Misty Women by Katherine M Brielmaier 17) Re: Misty Women , sun and shadow speculation by Katherine M Brielmaier 18) Re: Misty issues. by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu 19) Re: Apologizes of sorts by scottie-+AT+-tcd.net (Christine Hart) 20) Not niceties by Michelle Nicole Reis 21) Di staying young/avatars/God of Karma? by Khenta Blaufalk 22) Re: Misty issues. by Ken Hyde ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 96 06:13:51 UT From: "Valerie Sanford" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: FW: Misty Women Message-ID: ---------- HTH wrote: Hrumph, grumble, grumble. I don't know about this "role model" business. I sure wouldn't pick Misty women as role models, if I were in the market for some. Just my opinion. But I find her female characters hard to relate to, being someone who values humor, sex, and relationships pretty much above all. I think it would be a pretty dank world if all women were like Misty's main characters. Response: If the whole world were Misty characters it would be a very different world. Most women/girls however are taught to be cute, cuddley, warm, soft spoken, don't ask, don't be rude, don't win the game, let the boys win, ..... We teach our girls to mold themselves to others. It would be nice to have the pendulum swing the other way so maybe we could balance out the course. Just my humble opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:04:55 -0700 From: chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Tarot and Valdemar Message-ID: <199610242204.PAA20596-+AT+-rgs.rgs.edu.sg> After discussing it with Lady Windsong and Wintersong, and getting the names of the major arcana cards, we have came up with the Valdermar Tarot Cards! Here is the cast: Fool: Skif Magician: Vanyel High Priestess: Solaris Empress: Selenay Emperor: Charliss High Priest: Ulrich Lovers: Talia and Dirk Chariot: One of the Companions Strength: Kero Hermit: Jadus Wheel Of Fortune: A companion and the reincarnated herald eg. Sayvil and Savil Justice: Tarma and Kethry Hanged Man: Alberich Death: Leareth Temperance: Valdemar Minor Arcana: Have heralds and companions, bards, healers, mercenaries, Tayledras etc... How's this? If there are other cards which are missed out, please suggest the characters for the cards! Stormwind Learning is a treasure which accompanies its owner everywhere. --Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:10:35 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Falconsbane Message-ID: <24OCT96.02350544.0037.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Oy, of all the things I want out of life, more information about Falconsbane definitely did not make the list. I got so bloody tired of him after the Winds trilogy, always pacing and plotting and cackling like a bad stage villain (grandmothers wear black...stage villains wear black... sorry, quote's all wrong, but I have no copy of the book on hand), in case we forget for two seconds that he's Evil. Christ, we get it. Anyway, I guess the timing is all wrong for both Krebain and Leareth to be Ma'ar, which is a pity. Krebain *acts* so Ma'ar-like. Apparently there are just two of them, which doesn't speak terribly well for the author's creativity, but what the heck. I'd go for the Transfer of Essence theory in a heartbeat, except that Krebain says he's working for someone else, and Ma'ar never did that. Well, I'm looking forward to future Valdemar books, just to see what the place is like without Ma'ar. HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 23:49:45 -0700 From: Susan Cass To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: FAQ/women Message-ID: <326F1189.6CEC-+AT+-columbia-center.org> Hth. wrote: > > S-s-sorry, I didn't know there was a FAQ already. This changes my > argument a lot. Okay, now I officially give everyone permission to > snipe at newbies who bring up topics *that are listed as old topics in > the FAQ.* So will some nice person tell me where I can get it? Please??????? -- susanc-+AT+-columbia-center.org Western Oregon, zone 8 Does fuzzy logic tickle? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:29:14 +0100 (BST) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: reincarnation Message-ID: <9610240829.AA17429-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > >Everyone keeps saying that the reincarnated names are similar, so how do you > >explain Stefen-Tylendel? That's for heralds and companions; apparent continuity of memory - they remember who they were, and use similar names. Stefen/Tylendel is a case of "normal" reincarnation, *without* memory - and anyway, *parents* name children, while companions get to pick their own names... -Jerry -- _|_ Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) / | Hemel Hempstead, UK jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \_|_ jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) \__/ www.selune.demon.co.uk (soon) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 3:55:25 -0500 (CDT) From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK Subject: apology Message-ID: <961024035525.22ad344a-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu> Oh, please forgive me, Your Greenness, I humbly apologize for my misquote of your graciousness. I promise I will never do it again, untill the next time. In pennance, I shall now go play leap-frog with a unicorn. (weg) Sir Jake, how does one find Glenshadow's Tavern? mail me at graymt-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu if you could. I am still subscribing to the opinion that Falconsbane was both, Leareth and Krebain. Dax the Eternal, Lady of the Unicorns ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 02:25:10 -0600 From: ptamarin-+AT+-buttenet.com (Pat Tamarin) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: CotN/Help Message-ID: > From: Kerry Mealing > >> Who was the chap who smiled at Dave when he left the Logres bar late in >> the book (the other owner of the Logres, obviously, and possibly a >> Guardian, but who -was- he and why did his smile have such an effect?). > >The whole bar and all the people in it were lifted from another book, which, >unfortunately, I cannot remember what it was. But I do remember when I first >read CotN, thinking "oh, yeah, Logre's, that was that bar that all the >magically inclined people of New York hang out at." Are you thinking of Spider Robinson's Crosstime Saloon? (Time travelers stricly cash.) It sounds similar; many writers have included it in their stories, with a nod to Spider. Did it include a dog that speaks English with a German accent? Pat ______________________________________________________ "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." -- Rudyard Kipling ______________________________________________________ Pat Tamarin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:01:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Jaguar To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Tailchaser's song Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Elizabeth Angell wrote: > On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 Alamarana8-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 96-10-23 20:56:23 EDT, you write: > > > > > I think that Tailchaser's is closer to being like Misty's > > >Valdemar books. The Seekers kinda remind me of Heralds. > > > > I suppose they do. But that is the only link to the Valdemar books in > > _Tailchaser's Song_. Excellent book, my very favorite. > Seekers? Is this another book by Gayle greeno?! Like the ghatti books!? > Ooh, tell me! I love that series, but I've only heard of the trilogy. > Nope. It's a sort of a Watership Down deal, only with cats. Fritti Tailchaser goes on a quest to find his friend Hushpad and encounters Seekers (sort of like the cat version of the knights of the round table), evil demonic rat-like cats, and the mysterious creature known as M'an. :) Blessed be, Jaguar Leader of the Cat People "Some try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend Goddess of Large Hunter Cats Just what you want to be...you will be in the end Chronicler of the Mage Wars And I love you...." Lady in Green --Moody Blues "Nights in White Satin" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 96 14:49:42 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: Misty wimmin/cuddles/MO/Ghost Message-ID: <9610241349.AA10127-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> greetings, At the risk of sending HTH's ego into the stratosphere, may I also add my "Hear, hear" to the rest (re: Misty Women). > Problem three. Most of her female characters are not very warm. I wrote something a month or so back about how there was little joy in ML's book, and how I couldn't see them stopping for a quick cuddle every now and then. I *think* what Heather wrote agrees with me! As a firm believer in the benefits of cuddles, I looked back over the experimental 4 chapters of "The Book" to discover no less that 4 separate cuddles already - no violence/nastiness/rape/bitchiness/cruelty - just some cuddles. Says it all really doesn't it?! :) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hollie asked: > I read in the Arrows series that the Monarch's Own Companion usually > chooses someone already a Hearld when the current Monarch's Own dies. > What happens to that person's original Companion? And if the first > Companion was just a 'placeholder', does that Companion KNOW its just a > placeholder. Having recently re-read bits of Arrows 1 I was reminded of how - ah bear with me here, the brain has just gone on name-strike, let's give this a whirl and see how we go - Doodit that Talia replaces, was the Grandfather of the twins Fanny-Adams and Thingummy (with me so far?). Okay, one of them says something along the lines of "Grandfather always hoped one of us would replace him", implying that if Rolan *had* chosen one of them, their own Companion would have just bowed out. And wasn't it Fanny-Adams who had "one of the tightest bonds with her Companion someone had ever seen"? Again, implication here is that even with a tight bonding, if the MO Companion taps you on the shoulder (metaphorically speaking, you wouldn't want to start out with your arm in plaster!), then tough-titty, sunshine, you've just got yourself another Companion. Cue sad music as a lone Companion walks slowly back to the Companions Field, occasionally glancing back to the happy couple of Herald and MO, frollicking in the sunshine. Fighting back the tears, it bravely states "I don't mind, really I don't ...." pause for teary hiccough, "No honestly, it's the best for Valdemar, really, I'm fine, ........" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jacquelle asked: > Has there been any case in Valdemar where a Chosen named their Companion? Well, Tashir's companion was named by 'Fande, as I recall - She says "I've taken to calling him Ghost" or somesuch, because he was drifting around frightening the livers out of the locals. He suddenly becomes L-somethingorother, with, IIRC, absolutely no expalnation of why he's just switched from Ghost. There's never any mention of him having his own name to offer. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Chelsea, thank you for providing the quote I missed in MPromise about Van "seeing" 'Fandes. Y'know, even with this, and his seeing Gala even before he was blasted open, and the shall-I-knock-you-over-the-head-with-a-2x4 hints that ML gave in the third Winds book, I still didn't catch on that the Companions were re-born Heralds. Ah well, hindsight is a wonderful thing. That's me, groetjes, Esmeralda Evensbane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:19:11 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty Women , sun and shadow speculation Message-ID: <9610241420.AA13565-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> HTH wrote "But I find her female characters hard to relate to, being someone who values humor, sex, and relationships pretty much above all. I think it would be a pretty dank world if all women were like Misty's main characters." Well, I value a lot of the same things and I don't see much of a problem here. BUT most males have a hard time dealing with a woman who acts like they do in any way. Valerie Sanford can put it better than I can. Most women/girls however are taught to be cute, cuddley,warm, soft spoken, don't ask, don't be rude, don't win the game, let the boys win, ..... We teach our girls to mold themselves to others. It would be nice to have the pendulum swing the other way so maybe we could balance out the course. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't see any inherent conflict in being capable AND having relationships. Guys react oddly when a girl/woman is open and aboveboard about the fact that she has had wieght problems in any way. They generally are shocked because the stereotype is women care about their appearance. But the only way for me to deal with having had a wieght problem is to be open about it so someone doesn't push that button accidentally and maybe get hurt when I explode... I've had more fights with my brother about not letting him win than I care to think of. He can beat me at some things, but I see no reason to let him beat me in everything. And any other guy who thinks for even a minute that I'll be easy to beat in the combat circle (for further info search model airplane combat at any of the websearch places) just because I'm a woman has another think coming. I think Misty may be writing her characters as "hard" because it's pretty clear that women on Velgarth are not always considered men's equals. Look at the assumptions Daren made in the beginning of By the Sword about Kero (I don't have my copy here with me so if someone could look up the part where they have that HUGE fight on that forest training excersise and can't get back to the Tower?). He didn't think she was really serious about learning how to fight! But Daren changes his thinking and they start getting along and having fun together. I think one of the things that helps make it seem like her characters don't give a damn about relationships is that most of them are pretty busy trying to save the world from some kind of serious problem. I have a hard time saving myself from my Precalc homework and spending time with my friends, so I don't even want to think about the kinds of trouble most of her heroines would have juggling saving the world and having a romance! On a more pleasant topic, Alice Pinard said "Sunsinger calls Shadowdancer his star-eyed lady..... Sunsinger, bard who is only awake while the sun is up Shadowdancer, dancer who can only exist where there is no sun Vkandis Sunlord, 'god of the sun' Kalen'el Star-eyed, 'goddess of the moon'" I don't know much about Sunsinger and Shadowdancer but I remember seeing in the archives somewhere that Sunsinger and Shadowdancer were Valdemarans who were cursed (?) and later were Chosen. I'm not sure if the descriptions seem related by accident or whether Misty had something more in mind. Maybe someone else will pick this up? Emily Bye, Emily Cartier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:54:21 -0600 (CST) From: Charlene Joan Falkiner To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hello:) Message-ID: Hi. I'm new. My name's Char and I'm a 21-yo university student who also happens to be a bookworm. I've been reading the mail from the list for a couple of days and am really enjoying it. I tend to be a chronic lurker, a habit which I strongly intend to break. Anyway, can someone tell me where to find the much-discussed faq? Thanks. Char {ad655-+AT+-sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca} ***I fall upon the thorns of life*** ***I bleed*** ---Percy Shelley--- :):):):) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:54:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: Apologizes of sorts Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Valerie Sanford wrote: > It appears from the responses and comments directed to me that I should > apologize for suggesting people can discuss topics freely and that if you > don't like the subject to delete them. Nonsense! Stick to your guns and spit in the Devil's eye! =) Actually, I think you have a good point. I do exactly what you are suggesting: scan through the messages, delete anything that isn't particularly interesting, read anything that is, save anything that I wish to respond to, and voila I am done! And unless the FAQ has changed recently, it is really next to useless. Nope, I just checked, and it doesn't have answers to any of the questions, just a "do not talk about these topics" message. I think that until such time as the FAQ actually has a list of frequently asked questions *with answers!*, it is a bit much to jump on newbies (or oldbies, for that matter) if they choose to rehash the issues. They don't have any other way of finding out the answers. In the meantime, the people who don't like to see these recurrent threads might want to consider doing something constructive (like submitting good additions to the FAQ) rather than being generally negative. BTW, for those of you who are tired of threads, here are a list of FAQs that I came up with off the top of my head. You might want to make one your pet project, research the list archives and put together a definitive answer to it for inclusion in the official list FAQ (pending Auntie Mel's approval, of course *grin*): 1. Are Companion's reincarnated Heralds? a. Is Sayvil really Vanyel's aunt Savil? b. What are the Herald-Companion pairs that can be identified? c. Are the Grove-born reincarnated? 2. Which of Misty's characters are lifebonded? a. How do you recognize a lifebond? b. What is the difference between a lifebond and a lovebond? c. Can you be lifebonded without "eros"? 3. Who would you cast as such-and-such a character? 4. Are Vkandis and the Star-Eyed consorts? a. Are there any other gods in Velgarth besides these 2? b. Were the Companions sent by one or both of them? 5. Which Companions were Grove-born? a. What's up with Yfandes? 6. Is the quality of Misty's writing going downhill? 7. What is a "Guardian" in the Di Tregarde books? 8. Who were Ma'ar's incarnations? 9. How old was so-and-so at a certain time? a. How old was Van when he died? b. What was the age difference between Elspeth and Talia c. When did Talia get her whites? d. Is Tarma really dead? 10. What are the Companions' powers? a. Can Companions all mindspeak? 11. Who is Windrider? 12. What is the best order to read the Velgarth books in? Anyway, there are some suggested questions. Let's see if we can't put together some answers for a FAQ. To make it easier, even, I will volunteer to compile anything that is sent directly to me in answer to these questions. Answers to FAQs should show good research of the history of the question (have the answers changed over time?), textual evidence for any strong claims being made, and a balanced review of the various positions list-members have taken on the question. For example: Is Sayvil really Savil? The answer should show that this question has been around for some time (over a year), and that originally there was some debate, since Misty had not made it clear whether Companions were reincarnated Heralds or not. However, it is now accepted that Savil and Sayvil are the same spirit. Then the textevd from WoF(?) and the Baen interview should be given. So, let's make some magic happen, folkus! (And apologies to Auntie Mel if I am stepping on her toes with this.) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:00:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: apology Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu wrote: > Oh, please forgive me, Your Greenness, I humbly apologize for my > misquote of your graciousness. I promise I will never do it again, > untill the next time. In pennance, I shall now go play leap-frog > with a unicorn. (weg) Hmmmm. I hate to say this, but I think that you really need to take some remedial classes in attribution. I don't think that you have misquoted me (at least, not that I took you task for) until now. I believe that you may have misattributed something to Mat, but I don't remember whether it was mine or not. Anyway, remember that accurate attribution is a crucial part of textevd which is, in turn, the foundation upon which all good literary arguments (and other disciplines too) are built. =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:09:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: CotN/Help Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 KayCeeFour-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Regarding diefication (sp?), I personally don't want to be a god, but what > are the restrictions on becoming a priest of this pantheon? I mean being a > god is all well and good, but every god needs followers, right? How about it > Lady Thess, can I be a priest and start collecting tithes? Well, actually, I don't think it has exactly come up before, but you wouldn't apply to Lady Thess (unless you want to be her priest). You need to apply to the particular god or gods that you wish to worship/serve. Might I just take a moment to point out, btw, that as God of Karma, I offer the best retirement plan in the pantheon. Think about it! =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:28:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Michelle Nicole Reis To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: Misty issues. Message-ID: > > My main response to ML's use of rape is "Here we go again". > I'm surprised no-one's been raped in the Storm books - after all, > it occurs in Arrows, Magic, Winds, Oaths - why not Storm - surely > there's someone suitable. *That's* why I don't like it, and said it > was being trivialised into fantasy fiction plots - ML uses it in > a such a formulaic fashion - > > X gets captured by the baddies. > X gets raped by the baddies. > X escapes (or dies in Idra's case). > X recovers. > > I don't think the rape was used in a calculated way - the guys who > raped Van were bored and had a victim they'd been told to capture and > keep alive - nothing more. I didn't get the impression that they were > acting on orders, Talia's captors probably raped any woman brought in - > a perk of the job. Idra's captors again - they had a woman in their > power. I'm sorry if this is how you choose to look at it,but in many ways your wrong. In Van's case, though, you're right about his reason for being abused in this fashion. In Talia's case, however, the soldiers were set on her by Ancar. Remember the sadistic little bastard that he is? He wanted to hurt Talia and wear her down, so he did it by any means of torture necessary. In Idra's case, it was used as a means to break her. Char was pissed at her for hiding her new support for Stefan. In Oathbreakers pg.235 daw paperback it says "Idra's torture and "punishment" had begun with the expedient most commonly used to break a woman-multiple rape. Rape in which her own brother had been the foremost participent. Char's methods and means when that failed became more exotic. " It's not that this telling is supposed to give anyone a thrill, but I believed it's used to a good purpose. Its easy to right off something you've never experienced before as "it can never happen to me" or thoughts there abouts. And, sad and wrong as it is, some misguided people still blame the victim. I think Misty is trying to show that it can happen to anyone and recontsructing yourself afterwards takes a lot of time and love. Love of yourself and the love of other people.IMHO. > I am not disputing that ML handles the effects of rape on an individual > and their nearest and dearest well - I just wish she could come up > with something else. The Van rape scene was seriously unpleasant, it > disturbed me, I didn't want to read it, and I shan't again. It didn't > inform or challenge, IMO it bordered on the gratuitous. It added nothing > to the book that a less graphic description couldn't have. I also agree that I don't like to read graphic descriptions. But perhaps those too serve a purpose. Now for the most important news: I'M HERE! I've been lurking for several weeks, I've even sent a few postings, but THEY KEEP KICKING ME OFF! My brilliant thoughts go unheard! HELP! Why are they doing this to me? For the Great Records Keeper: My name is Michelle, I'm 18 a nd am majoring in Forest Management at LSU (don't anyone dare laugh)I live here in Louisiana. I've been reading Misty since I was 11. I absolutely adore the LHM trilogy, and does anyone know where I can get my own Van? Please, please, please? I'llbe your best friend! Lightstorm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:30:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Katherine M Brielmaier To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty Women Message-ID: Misty Women: My own take on it, with some other thoughts... Misty has been trying very hard to break her female characters out of that "feminine". For the most part, I think she does a reasonable job. Her characters are able to remain themselves, yet break away from the norm. And it looks to me as if Misty has been experimenting with different versions of this. Talia: very nurturing, motherly, "female principle" kind of character. This probably has a lot to do with her upbringing. At the same time, by virtue of being a Herald, she risks her life, fights in wars, almost gets herself killed, and is just generally on "hazardous duty". Her role as Monarch's Own makes her a counselor to the Queen, again a very "female" kind of stereotype (and no, I am not saying that men can't do this just as well), but she is not forced to subordinate her desires in order to stay "feminine". Kerowyn: I like Kero a lot. Strong, caring, able to be vulnerable. She knew from the first that the traditional life was not for her, and as soon as she had the chance to get out, she took it. As Captain of the Skybolts, she also is a sort of mother figure, but it's much more as a commander than as a mommy. Misty makes some noise about how lonely Kero is, and how high the "price of command" can be, but even if Kero had never found Eldan, I think she would have managed just fine, thank you. I agree that people need each other, and I think Misty was trying to say that too, but she got it a little garbled and instead of creating a partner-relationship for Kero, Misty turned it into an "I'm so lonely I could die" need. Mistake. Selenay: also a strong mother figure, but as a ruler, you have to be a parent to your people, as it were. She doesn't back down when things need to be done, as I have seen other female characters in other books do, and she is able to be strong, competent and completely in power. Kethry: as HTH said, a bit forgettable. She's a mage with power, but I wonder how much she would have gotten done without Tarma along, or without Need to push her along. She was on her Journeyman tour with the White Winds, yes? She intended to make a difference, but part ofme suspects she would have just settled down with a nice young man as soon as she could. Not that there's a damn thing wrong with that, either, but it's *another* example of Misty only allowing her female characters to be "unfeminine" because they're *forced to by the circumstances* (something I think she does with Talia as well). Tarma: Tarma's awesome--as HTH says "she's got style". But again, here's another woman who was only allowed to be unfeminine because she had to be (to avenge her clan). Again, if Tarma had been a normal kid in her clan, she would have gotten married, had some kids, and been generally a mom-type. Savil: another character like Kero, who knew what she wanted and went out and got it. Great! Elspeth: more rebellious than usual, again, circumstantial though: she's the Heir, a Herald, etc. etc. By training and birth, she is not a traditional female either. In sum, I'd say that Misty is trying to get her women out and doing stuff, but at the same time she apparently feels that they have to have some excuse to do so. With the exception of Kethry and Savil, the female characters are forced by circumstance to become "less traditional", which I think is a cop-out. I give her points for trying, though, and her female characters are much better than many others I've run across. Maybe in the next series... 's e do bheatha, Kaatje ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:38:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Katherine M Brielmaier To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty Women , sun and shadow speculation Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Emily L Cartier wrote: > On a more pleasant topic, Alice Pinard said > "Sunsinger calls Shadowdancer his star-eyed lady..... > Sunsinger, bard who is only awake while the sun is up > Shadowdancer, dancer who can only exist where there is no sun > Vkandis Sunlord, 'god of the sun' > Kalen'el Star-eyed, 'goddess of the moon'" > I don't know much about Sunsinger and Shadowdancer but I remember > seeing in the archives somewhere that Sunsinger and Shadowdancer were > Valdemarans who were cursed (?) and later were Chosen. I'm not sure > if the descriptions seem related by accident or whether Misty had > something more in mind. Maybe someone else will pick this up? Go Alice! Now that's an interesting line of thought! I know that Sunsinger and Shadowdancer were supposed to be Heralds, but I think Alice's point here about the Star-Eyed and the Sunlord is a fantastic idea. In the beginning, Misty may not have intended it to come out that way, but it sure sounds darn likely--maybe a subconscious thing? Also, this story shows up all over the place in various mythologies, and I'm reasonably certain that's where Misty picked it up. Maybe when she came up with the Star-Eyed and the Sunlord she was using those ideas again. Anyhow, very nifty line of thought...I just wish we had some way to prove it..... 's e do bheatha, Kaatje ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:02:55 -0500 (CDT) From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty issues. Message-ID: <199610241702.AA002516577-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> > For the Great Records Keeper: My name is Michelle, I'm 18 a nd am > majoring in Forest Management at LSU (don't anyone dare laugh)I live here > in Louisiana. I've been reading Misty since I was 11. I absolutely > adore the LHM trilogy, and does anyone know where I can get my own Van? > Please, please, please? I'llbe your best friend! > > Lightstorm > Welcome to the list! And no, I won't laugh because one of my friends moved from Chicago to Montana to study Forest Management. ObMisty: in reference to the Tarot cards, I don't think Skif should be "the fool". I liked the idea of the fool being Lezlac. IMESHO, he fits the designation perfectly. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:17:55 -0600 From: scottie-+AT+-tcd.net (Christine Hart) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Apologizes of sorts Message-ID: <199610241417.IAA19484-+AT+-main.tcd.net> Perhaps someone could tell me how to unsubscribe to this list. I have been on it 24 hours, and it isn't what I thought it would be. I have tried sending: unsubscribe mercedes-lackey and it keeps sending me warning message not sent emails. Sorry, it's not personal, I am a huge fan or M.L. (I have all her books), but I'm not interested in going in to quite as much depth as you all do. (Personal choice.. Christine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:15:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Michelle Nicole Reis To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Not niceties Message-ID: Hello everyone, its me again. I just wanted to comment on the flare up of tempers on the re-hashing of old subjects. There is really no need to nit-pick people for being curious, just as there is no need to get pissed if people don't want to read stuff that has been talked to death. If you have a question, alot of times the books contain the answers. I'm sure you can force yourself the re-read Misty,painful though it must be. Enough of this. Now, I have a question. Has anyone ever heard of or played the RPG Changeling? If so please write me. And, I'm so lonely out here by myself, does anyone live in LA on the list? :-( obMisty: I want More Vanyel. I love Vanyel! Also does anyone know of maybe anything of what happened in Jisa's life? I rather liked her and I want to know more about her. Lightstorm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:54:50 +0200 (METDST) From: Khenta Blaufalk To: Misty mail Subject: Di staying young/avatars/God of Karma? Message-ID: Kerry wrote (sorry if it's not exactly the same, copied it from another message): > Now in Jinx High, Di doesn't appear any/much older than college, but >she's > obviously not a vamp because she's prancing about in daylight.. Is there > any legendary foundation for regularly donating blood to a vampire, > keeping you young? (I can't recall any offhand, but something's nagging > me about that idea). Just thought of that: Maybe this remembers you of the british(?) film _Greed_(?) with Susan Sarandon, David Bowie and Catherine Deneuve(?) from the early 80s? IIRC Bowie stayed young as long as Deneuve drank his blood; when she lost her interest in him, he aged and died pretty quickly (in a few hours). So that kind of matches your thought. ================================================================== taking this from private discussion to the list, 'cause I'm interested in your opinions: On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Ramona Winkelbauer [SERA] wrote: >> I'm not quite sure I understand the qualities of an Avatar? What makes >> them different from say, Tarma (before & after death) or the Companions, >> etc.? and I wrote: >As I see it, Misty uses the concept of Avatar in a bit different way than >the "encyclopedical" definition. IMO Avatars in Misty's books >are/were independent personalities who function now as a kind of >messenger between this world and the Otherworld/Moonpaths, who are mostly >"otherworld", but can make appearances in this world. As opposed to >shamans, who are physically tied to this world, but can venture into the >Otherworld. >So, IMO, the Kalenedral and the Companions are just symbols of the >deity, representing (and acting on) the religion or philosophy in question. Well, what do you all think? Where's the difference between Tarma/Companion and an avatar? And what makes her avatars different from the idea of avatar in our world? ======================================================================= Cennydd writes: >Might I just take a moment to point out, btw, that as _God_ of Karma, I >offer the best retirement plan in the pantheon. Think about it! Wait a moment... Does my memory desert me or did I really miss this? Exactly when did you rise from _Master_ of Karma to _God_ of the same? ;) Btw, priest/esses and worshippers welcome... but make sure it won't affect your grades/marks at classes (if you have them, that is). :) Walk in beauty Khenta Blaufalk aka Skyfire & Aar Goddess of Incomplete Vocabulary and Garbled Grammar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:56:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty issues. Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu wrote: > ObMisty: in reference to the Tarot cards, I don't think Skif should be "the > fool". I liked the idea of the fool being Lezlac. IMESHO, he fits the > designation perfectly. Um. Ok. some thoughts/rationales for my tarot selections. I don't think that Leslac would be a good choice for the Fool. Remember that the Fool is not supposed to represent/be represented by an idiot. The Fool signals things like extravagance, frivolity, spontaneity, levity, etc. In more metaphysical terms, the Fool is energy undirected or uharnessed by human will and wisdom, whence its interpretations of obsession, passion, enthusiasm, thoughtlessness, etc. In general though, the Fool is not supposed to be a negative image. I thought Skif would be a good choice because he captures the impulsive, mischievous exuberance of the Fool. Also, when badly situated, the negative aspects of the card (faulty choices, apathy, hesitation, folly, etc.) are represented by some of his later characterization (his interactions with Elspeth). I strongly disagree with Solaris as the Hight Priestess. She is quite definitely a better choice for the Heirophant. Remember that the High Priestess is a representative of Mystery as much as anything else. She represents things like wisdom, common sense, serenity, self-reliance, hidden knowledge and wisdom, she is one of the major cards for magic, too. This is why I thought of Savil. She is a transmitter of knowledge about the Mysteries (magical ones, at least), she is is generally serene, self-reliant, and she keeps her emotions concealed to present the world with a generally calm, serene image. Another characteristic that fits her is the lack of patience with fools and that ilk. On the other hand, Solaris is classically the Heirophant. She represents the organized, ritualized manifestation of divine power in the real world. Other readings of this card include alliance, forgiveness, goodness, mercy, humility, kindness, etc. Solaris is also slightly resistant to changing her mind (about Tremane for example) which is another characteristic of this card. As for Talia and Dirk as the Lovers, I only know of one tarot that has the Lovers representing choice. While choice is always implied, it is more the choice to recognized the right way, rather than to make an unbiased choice between two equally valid options. On the other hand, the common meanings of the Lovers are love, perfection, harmony, trust, honor, etc. I would argue that even the implied struggle (between sacred and profane love) and the sense of trials and triumph are apt for Talia and Dirk. However, I think that perhaps, all that being said, the card should also include Kris. BTW, the card that I couldn't remember was Justice (not bad--just one card that I couldn't remember without an actual deck in front of me!). I am not sure what would be a good choice for this one. The characteristics are harmony, balance, righteousness, virtue, purity, impartiality, etc. The ability to recognize and avoid evil and temptation and a certain self-satisfaction are also implied. If the card is ill-placed or disfigured, it becomes a sign of bias, false accusations, bigotry, intolerance, and abuse. Hmmmm. Perhaps Karal would be a good choice. He is all the positive qualities and if he were corrupted or changed to evil, we would expect the negative traits (the seeds of them are visible in him). Anyway, those are some thoughts. Comments? disagreements? stunned worship? =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 900 *********************************