MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 901 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Reply to: Tailchaser's song by Rozanna McNeer 2) More sorries by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu 3) Re: apology/Sun and Shadow by Mat Timmerman 4) Cuddles by Selkie 5) re: Ghost by Rozanna McNeer 6) Reply to: sun and shadow speculation by Rozanna McNeer 7) Re: More sorries by Ken Hyde 8) Misty's Women/et al. by Lynne Markova 9) strong female characters in ML by kcovert-+AT+-wvnvm.wvnet.edu (Kathy Covert) 10) attribution/ego/Shadowdancer by "Hth." 11) Reply to: FW: Misty Women by Rozanna McNeer 12) mental magic block/SB by Rose 13) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 900 by Barbara G Jacob-Mcdowell 14) I messed up again. by Rose 15) Tarot/Tailchaser by "Hth." 16) Braves Braidsson Battles Other Time Consumers To Read List! by Korendil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:08:40 -0400 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: Tailchaser's song Message-ID: <199610241408_MC1-B57-35BC-+AT+-compuserve.com> Jaguar, you neglected to mention another important thing re: Tailchaser's Song -> it's written by Tad Williams!!!!! (wow, wonder how many that is) Yes the same guy that wrote Memory, Thorn and Sorrow (otherwise known as The Dragonbone Chair, The Stone of Farewell, and The Green Angel Tower) I'm pretty sure this was his first book, but it is still v-e-r-y good. Hearty recommendations obmisty: I would like Misty to write a book entirely from a Companion's point of view - I'd suggest Yfandes, but then we'd get an overlap thing like Moreta /Nerilka's Story Pern books. I STILL want to know Yfandes life story. Think of all the implications though -> what kind of games do Companion foals play? what kind of stories are they told? do they really consciously remember their pasts lives, or only remember the 'experiences' (like emotions, and what motivates people, etc. the better to counsel their Chosen by)? I wanna know!!!! Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:11:23 -0500 (CDT) From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK Subject: More sorries Message-ID: <961024131123.22ae515f-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu> I said: >> Oh, please forgive me, Your Greenness, I humbly apologize for my >> misquote of your graciousness. I promise I will never do it again, >> untill the next time. In pennance, I shall now go play leap-frog >> with a unicorn. (weg) then Cennyd said: >Hmmmm. I hate to say this, but I think that you really need to take some >remedial classes in attribution. I don't think that you have misquoted me >(at least, not that I took you task for) until now. I believe that you >may have misattributed something to Mat, but I don't remember whether it >was mine or not. ::Blush::Now I must apologize again, not for a wrong attribution (couldn't for the life of me remember that word last night), but for my unfortunate vagueness. Perhaps I should have said, "Oh, please forgive me, Your CATLY Greeness,..." I suppose my crypticness comes from being a cryptological linguist as opposed to a cunning linguist, ::looks around innocently:: especially, since it just hit me like a "board to the back of the head" what textevd means! (Personnally, I think Cennyd just wanted to watch me do my pennance, so he had to jump in! :D) And our Esteemed Mage of Anti-Noise, suggested a list of FAQ, I think the questions are great and wonder if New peoples, if they can cite adequate textevd, can send you answers as well? Greetings to all the newer than me newbies! Dax the Eternal, Lady of the Unicorns "...but sure as you're born, the loveliest of all was the unicorn" - The Unicorn, Irish Rovers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:30:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: apology/Sun and Shadow Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Ken Hyde wrote: > On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu wrote: > > > Oh, please forgive me, Your Greenness, I humbly apologize for my > > misquote of your graciousness. I promise I will never do it again, > > untill the next time. In pennance, I shall now go play leap-frog > > with a unicorn. (weg) Thou art forgive milady. :) > Hmmmm. I hate to say this, but I think that you really need to take some > remedial classes in attribution. I don't think that you have misquoted me > (at least, not that I took you task for) until now. I believe that you > may have misattributed something to Mat, but I don't remember whether it > was mine or not. Cen, I think she meant me. You're not the only one in Green around here. ============================================================================ Whomever mentioned Sun and Shadow as Kal'enel and Vkandis (oops, deleted the message) Yes, it's been brought up before, but only once, that I recall in the 2 years (!) I've been on-list. So, I'd say it's not discussed to death. :) I don't really like this theory. Mostly because there are legends and songs of them being Heralds. (textevd is in AFlight -- the Herald revel in the Companions' tack shed, when Talia and Dirk sing Sun and Shadow) Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"The blue rose, rare, one cannot Adept, and God of Procrastination| gain, if glove or guard be worn. Heathen #??? | 'Tis only when, one risks the pain, mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | of flesh against the thorn." http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/| - Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 96 14:34:48 EDT From: Selkie To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk (Mercedes Lackey List) Subject: Cuddles Message-ID: <199610241835.OAA19401-+AT+-hobbes.kzoo.edu> It does seem that the world is a very cold, distant place in the books I read. I realize that they are saving the world and all that, but nobody ever says "You know, I could really use a hug", which I say plenty of times, and which doesn't make me any less strong. I don't think that the women should be flighty, fluffy people, I like them being strong people, I just think that there isn't very much affection in the books, with either male or female charcters(I don't know, as I've only read a few of the books, but it's what it appears to me) And by affectionate I just mean hugs and such between friends as well as lovers. ANybody else here listen to Dar Williams? My best friend just went to her concert last night and is totally wowed. Love and kisses, Cele Note: If this doesn't make sense, blame it on a two hour debate about ratifing the constitution. Some times experiencial education goes a little too far. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Puppy Love means Sloppy Kisses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cecelia Ann Marsh |"You've been reading | Box 444 Hicks Center |too much meaning from | Kalamazoo MI 49006 |existence" | E-mail: k95cm02-+AT+-kzoo.edu | | http://www.kzoo.edu/~k95cm02/ | -James _Lullaby_ | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:34:41 -0400 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: re: Ghost Message-ID: <199610241435_MC1-B53-E519-+AT+-compuserve.com> Somebody asked: "Has there ever been a case were the Chosen named the Companion?" It's probably already been mentioned, but. . . SILKSWIFT!!!! - Sherril's Companion. Mention of this is in Arrows1 when Sherril and Talia go visit their Companions in the Field for the first time since Talia arrived at the Collegium. Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:34:44 -0400 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: sun and shadow speculation Message-ID: <199610241435_MC1-B53-E51A-+AT+-compuserve.com> songs, myths, legends, and folklore all change over the course of time. Also we have to remember the 'there is no one true way' creed. If this most popular song refered to Sun and Shadow as deities instead of heralds, don't you think that would kind of 'gel' the ancient Vkandis religion (the one with Kalanel present) into the main religion of Valdermar? And once Valdemar had such a main religion, wouldn't it be much harder to enforce the 'no one true way' creed? if they were consorts, it would be truly hard for them -- as has been pointed out He is the Sun and she is the Starry Sky (night sky) and stars usually don't show in the sky when the sun is still up. Makes me think of LadyHawke (sniff. I love that movie. pass the kleenex) Wonder how they did over come the curse? The details, not just mystic mumblings of song lyrics Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:57:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: More sorries Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu wrote: > And our Esteemed Mage of Anti-Noise, suggested a list of FAQ, I think the > questions are great and wonder if New peoples, if they can cite adequate > textevd, can send you answers as well? Mais bien sur! I certainly have nothing against newbies. If it weren't for new people, we would all just sit around and gradually attrite until there was nothing left to the list. Anyone, whether a newbie or an oldbie is more than welcome to help build the FAQ file. Just remember, I did my BA in CompLit at TU, so I am a demon when it comes to what constitutes adequate textevd (joking!). =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Lynne Markova To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Misty's Women/et al. Message-ID: Lady Sophia stops trilling long enough to reply.... Well, I agree that Misty's women tend to be duty-first, somewhat severe, somewhat driven, and definitely not the sort of women who skips saving the world in order to go to the movies. However: They are generally in extremely difficult and dangerous situations (i.e. combat, war, crisis), which absorbs much of their attention. They certainly are capable of cuddling and hugging. Most of the examples we see are in crisis situations (but, then again, most of Misty's *books* take place in crisis situations!) Here are some examples: Talia weeps on Keren's shoulder when she has pneumonia. (AQueen) An'desha weeps on Elspeth's shoulder when he is furious with Firesong for flirting with Darkwind. (SRising). Karal weeps on Kero and Talia when Ulrich is attacked. Talia gives Elspeth a big hug when she gets back from her internship. (AFall) It does seem to be a bit much duty, duty, duty... then again, we very seldom see these people when they're not working - hanging out in the Compass Rose and chatting seems to be a lot of fun... so does the inane song-contest going on in MPrice.... With the exception of Fire Rose, I just don't see Misty focusing all that much on food, clothes, and relationships - the relationships do develop, but they are ... not necessarily secondary, just not the only, or major things in a person's life. I wonder, though.... Misty's male characters do focus on relationships quite a bit - we have Firesong worrying about An'desha and a lifebond and Silverfox, we have An'desha worrying about Firesong, we have Darkwind in a snit because of Elspeth's "attitude" and because he's attracted to her.... Personally, as a goal-directed person, I like Misty's women, but I wish they had a better sense of humor! RE: Heralds Riding Circuit I thought one of the major reasons Heralds rode circuit in the first place was to bring new laws and news to the various villages they encountered, dispense the Queen's justice, and assess the situations, and make their reports back to Haven. After all, if your Companion can mindspeak Rolan from fairly near the border, the Queen will have a pretty good idea of what's going on.... RE: Elspeth Did anyone else think Misty changed her mind about Elspeth after the Arrows trilogy? I always thought that Misty planned her to be queen, but then changed her mind, and had her become the first herald-mage. Bright blessings, Lady Sophia, Goddess of Song and Music ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:36:18 -0400 From: kcovert-+AT+-wvnvm.wvnet.edu (Kathy Covert) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: strong female characters in ML Message-ID: >HTH wrote: > >Hrumph, grumble, grumble. I don't know about this "role model" >business. I sure wouldn't pick Misty women as role models, if I were in >the market for some. > >Just my opinion. But I find her female characters hard to relate to, >being someone who values humor, sex, and relationships pretty much above >all. I think it would be a pretty dank world if all women were like >Misty's main characters. Perhaps I can offer another viewpoint: with a few exceptions (priestess types like Solaris and Tarma, and possibly Savil*) ALL of the strong, accomplished women in her world are also in a committed, caring relationship. And while much of the action, be it cuddles or otherwise, of those relationships take place off-screen, there is no doubt that Dirk is an important influence on Talia, and indirectly on the Valdemar Court, that Daren and Selenay value each other personally as well as politically. While we, as afficionados of her writing, wish to see more of those characters and their development, many of ML's target audience are looking for ACTION! (I loaned LHM trilogy to a friend. He didn't like it because "there's too much inner dialog and characterization. I wanted him to kill more cold-drakes". So a good-quality, sellable book requires a compromise. In much mainstream literature and classic fantasy/science fiction, women are defined by their relationships more than by what they do. And in all too many fantasy novels, their role in the plot is to be the sexual prize for killing the dragon/giant ape/alien/battlestation. So I, for one, think it is refreshing that ML *underplays* the role of sex and cuddles and puts more emphasis on the external accomplishments. Let's face it, if we want to read books where the one-on-one relationship complete with sex and cuddles is the most important thing, we need only go to the nearest drugstore and pick up a bodice-ripper. One of the subtle things I like about ML is that she lets her characters be adult, sexual beings without being "in love". One of the ironies about the Arrows trilogy being in the young adult section is the Talia/Kris relationship. They are co-workers, partners, but not in love, yet it is all right for them to have a sexual relationship to "ease the tension". And even after great sex, they still don't fall "in love". They "share blankets" with "nothing more than a comfortable friendship". Kind of counter to what lots of people are telling 12-16 yr olds right now, huh? Kero accepts celibacy--reluctantly--as the price of command, but I never envisioned her as sexless. Eldan describes her as the best lover he has ever had, sexually aggressive and responsive. She is described as beautiful, complete, confident in her body and mind. She is celibate while commander because the alternatives--farmboys, healers, minstrals, are not what she wants. She considers following Eldan back to Valdemar, but doesn't want to be dependent on him. And when she finds a situation that allows them to be together, she grabs it. And in my own personal history of Savil, she's enjoyed relationships with several different people,Tayledras as well as Heralds. Not bad for a formidable woman with a beaky nose. To sum, I feel that ML does a great job of drawing characters and showing them in relationships that are balanced and meaningful. As far as showing cuddles on-screen--well, I put myself in the shoes of Skif--who is uncomfortable with Talia and Dirk when they are being lovey-dovey and putting their hearts in each other's pockets, and appreciates it when they "mute it a bit" to make him less uncomfortable. Now I sound like a prude, but so be it. Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:32:02 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: attribution/ego/Shadowdancer Message-ID: <24OCT96.14616638.0028.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Darlin', I think she was apologizing to Mat the Cat in *Green,* not the Mage of *Green* Silences. Take two steps back Esmerelda, don't worry about my ego. I get plenty of strokes on the list, but then I go home to my friends, who never hesitate to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I almost got laughed out of my own room last weekend for admitting that I really liked Apollo 13. This Sunsinger/Vkandis Shadowdancer/Star-Eyed connection has come up before, and I really like the idea. Whether it's intentional or not I don't know, but it should be. It's not uncommon for old mythologies to come down through oral tradition and be diluted or changed into something that meshes with the current society. Gods become Heralds in the same way that, for instance, the Sidhe become the Devil in American folklore (outwitted in some contest or another by the clever human). Maybe it's even a prophecy instead of a history, foretelling the eventual reunion of Vkandis and Kal'enel (sp?) when they work together to save something or someone from great harm. It would explain why Misty is so adamant about not writing a book about Sun & Shadow, so that they remain a dim legend -- they aren't there to write about. HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:19:04 -0400 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: FW: Misty Women Message-ID: <199610241419_MC1-B3D-A35C-+AT+-compuserve.com> women in misty books not being taught to be cute and cuddly I'm not sure about that -> Treesa would certainly fall into the category of having been taught to play the 'Game' (oh poor little me please cosset me because I don't have any sense), and the other court 'beauties' seemingly have no sense either (Van's admiring horde in MP1). Also, remember the heartless bit** that hurt Dirk? And another part of Arrows -> where Talia and Kris are packing up to go on circuit and Dirk keeps admonishing Talia to pack only necessary items, to which she thinks 'it's not like i'm some silly town- bred chick.' (don't know exact page ref - sorry). It seems to *me* that plenty of the women in Velgarth are taught they have to be cute-n-cuddly -- misty just doesn't write them big parts becuase cute-n-cuddly is **boring** ("oh dear, i have a splinter, whatever shall i do???" and muscles replies, flexingly "let me handle you poor little cute-n-cuddly helpless thing, you" to which beauty says 'oohhhh I am unworthy of such attention, kind sir.") I agree that the main characters that are female are not subservient or cute-n- cuddly, but let's not go whole hog and say if the world were populate by Misty characters that women would be better off. I mean, there are still mutters about women and 'moon-days'. (Selenay with the betrothal proposal, Kerowyn instructing Elspeth on how to handle the council, etc) Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:19:01 -0400 From: Rose To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: mental magic block/SB Message-ID: <326FDD45.1574-+AT+-ctol.net> Emily L Cartier wrote: > And any other guy who thinks > for even a minute that I'll be easy to beat in the combat circle (for > further info search model airplane combat at any of the websearch > places) just because I'm a woman has another think coming. >You RC??? Me too! In fact 3/5 of my family does! ------------ Question, and if it's been done could someone please give a consice answer? I was rereadimg the first winds and just who controls the Valdemar mental block over magic, Vanyel or the Companions? ---------- Possible SB spoiler J U S T A M I N U T E If, at the end of storm breaking, all the power is no longer nodes and ley lines concentrated, what does that mean for Velgarth? If the existing power is natural, then the land should be okay, but if it's not then the entire world would be one big Peligirs. If the power is natural then there would no longer be any use for the Hawkbrothers to purify the land because the rouge power they were purifying would have already been changed. Dyana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:46:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Barbara G Jacob-Mcdowell To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 900 Message-ID: It's very likely that this has been brought up, and if it has, I apologize in advance--but my life has been so crazy with work and being sick and gum surgery (NOT a happy thing) that most days I simply have to delete the digests without even scanning through them. I hate that, yet I don't want to unsubscribe because I enjoy it so much when I *do* have a chance to read it. So please bear with me. Anyhoo--I gather that there's been a thread lately on Misty's women, and I wanted to put in my tuppence'worth. I agree with whomever commented that maybe Misty has been experimenting and trying out various roles for her women characters in her books. After all, she has been writing these over a period of years, and one would hope that she would change and develop as a writer as well as a person. On the topic of strong women in Misty's books, has anyone considered Natoli from the *Storm* trilogy? I recently finished reading the third one, and went back to reread the first and second. (I'm now partway through the second one--and one of the annoying things about her trilogies are the similarities of the titles within each, making it hard for me to remember which is which when I don't have them handy.) First book, Natoli is this nice hardworking girl, daughter of a Herald, a Blue, who is "not conventionally pretty, but has a face so full of character that it is attractive...." (that's a paraphrase of at least two descriptions of her) and who is deeply immersed in her studies and work. Asked by her father to give Karal a chance to meet some young people who might become his friends, she takes him to the Compass Rose and the "artificers". Clearly the two of them are attracted to each other--and once again, they defer to the necessity of helping to find solutions to the mage storms (although as someone else said, it would've been nice if Misty had given them a chance for the occasional cuddle. Although perhaps this lack is part of what may be foreshadowing of Karal's future as stated by Ulrich's last words to him before the "little birds" are released). It is Natoli whose impassioned (and shrewd) words cause ALL of the Blues to volunteer to help. Near the beginning of the second book, Karal is nervously going to the Compass Rose for the first time in a LONG time; besides recovering from his part in putting up the breakwater at the Iftel border, he has been overwhelmed with trying to both fill Ulrich's shoes and do his own secretarial duties. Will Natoli be mad at him? Will she snub and embarrass him in front of all these friends? Will she refuse to accept his apologies/explanations? He and An'desha go in, pausing to let their eyes adjust to the brighter light. When they are noticed, that big crowded room goes silent. Natoli sees him, and--is delighted that he has come. Huge sigh of relief all round--from Karal, from An'desha, probably from Florian and Altra, from the other Blues, and hopefully from the reader. Karal manages to stammer out to her semi-privately that he was sorry to have been absent so long, and Natoli says [paraphrase again], "Look, I know how busy you've been. You forget I have a father who's a Herald, I *live* in the Collogium, I have all these friends at the palace--how could I not be aware that you couldn't help it? And I make sure that all the rest knew it too." That is a strong, reasonable person. That is someone who isn't being coy and put-upon and playing any little games. And to me, one of the most significant parts of this exchange is her last sentence, the words of a real friend, someone who isn't going to let others manipulate her into imagined grievances. I forget which book it's in, but at some point Karal realizes that Natoli isn't as defensive as she once was about not being Chosen. If she hasn't been invited into the back room, graduating from student to Master yet, she's close to it. There isn't a lot of fanfare about Natoli; IMHO her most dramatic moment is her rallying the Blues, but she is a steady, cleareyed, attractive person whom I hope Misty will bring more to the forefront in future books. Unlike Kethry and the pre-Sworn Tarma and even the just-about-to-ride-her-first-circuit Talia, she is not presented as this pretty girl. Even Kero at the beginning of *By the Sword* is described as pretty....the emphasis on Natoli is that she is capable and intelligent and has character. That the others have (or develop) character, I certainly grant you, but I think that there is a shift in Misty's conception of her away from the earlier women. No, she isn't a major character, but she may very well become one (I'll be disappointed if she doesn't). Speaking of Misty's writing, one of the things I liked about her first few Velgarth trilogies was that the protagonist was a young girl, even though I didn't begin reading her until I was in my mid-30s. No doubt that stems from my having had to read so many books as a kid where the protagonist was always a guy, and the females were usually empty-headed paperdolls. (And most of these were written by guys--most of the books I had access to were owned by my brother, who graciously allowed me to read them after *he* had read them first and I earned the privilege by doing his chores). And I have liked it in the *Winds* books and *Storm* books that it's been a bit more evenly divided between male and female protagonists working things out (not just on a sexual/mating level)... BUT I wish that she would go a bit further. By that I mean that one of the elements of the *Storms* trilogy I like the best has been the evolution of Tremayne. He is middle-aged (okay, in the first book, he is initially described as young, but perhaps that was a relative POV term, since Charliss was so OLD; Tremayne probably seemed quite young to him.) --and yet he changes and grows. Some of that is circumstance, some of it is due to Solaris' curse, but the point is that he *does* develop as a person and changes. I've known people who have not, who are essentially the same as they were 30 years ago--same opinions, same actions, same behavior patterns, same favorite foods, even the same hairstyle and clothing choices. Misty is very successful at writing about protagonists who are young and feel out of place and are fumbling to make sense out of who they are and where they belong. She's good at it. But I wish that she would come up with a character who is more like one of the stick-in-the-muds I mentioned in the previous paragraph, and how (s)he *has* to open up and change. Change is hard and takes a lot of effort and work and courage. And it takes just as much for an older person as it does for a young one--maybe more; young ones don't have as many years of habit to battle against. Ever wish that "makeovers" could include not only clothes/makeup/weight externals but also internal changes? Perhaps some of the discussion about "feminine" women characters stems from our having been taught so thoroughly that women in a plot are expected to put their main focii on relationships, usually mating/marriage/ mothering. Recently at work (campus library) I came across a piece of litcrit on TV series like *I Love Lucy* and *Laverne & Shirley* in which the writer grumps about the two main women's closeness marginalizing the men and that they must actually have been lesbians.... Let me be very clear here: I am not saying anything judgemental about those who are or aren't. That is not my point. My point is that why is it so hard for us to adjust to women in plots where they are not *completely* immersed in mating/marriage/mothering? Those are important subjects, but they are not ALL of one's existence. One may dominate part of one's life for a while, but not all of it. I am extrememly fortunate to be married to a wonderful partner, who IS the love of my life, supportive and loving and exasperating (sometimes) and a real blessing, but there are also things like friends and interests we have separately, and opinions and hangups and all the multitude of things we each have to juggle from day to day. It's nice that we know Talia and Dirk have had a couple of kids, ditto Selenay and Daren (whatever age the kids are) but Dirk (and Eldan) kind of fade out of the later books. They're sort of anchor characters, providing emotional anchors and clear indications that both Talia and Kero, in addition to their powerful positions, are "feminine" in the more traditional, convnetional novelistic sense. Maybe, with Karal and Natoli, Misty is venturing away from that. And maybe she is moving towards a woman character who is capable of having various coonections with the people around her: close friendships with either gender, romantic relationships, business associations, familial bonds. Like so many of us, male and female, in real life. My experience is that people like that are the most interesting and whole to be around, and I am fascinated by how they got there--and how they juggle all of the day to day stuff in addition to school/career/art/service /whatever. Whew! Didn't expect to run on so long. Sorry! --Barra Jacob-McDowell Everything will perish save love and music.--Scots Gaelic proverb Harpers have pluck--but don't get strung out.--Barra the Bard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:50:50 -0400 From: Rose To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I messed up again. Message-ID: <326FE4BA.7248-+AT+-ctol.net> Once again I'm having e-mail troubles. Now it adds my thoughts on to thngs I've snipped from other messages. I want to scream. So since I've quoted other people for saying things I've said, I'm sorry and I promise I'll figure out this e-mail system sooner than possible if I don't put a chainsaw through the computer first. Dyana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 17:40:36 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Tarot/Tailchaser Message-ID: <24OCT96.19091081.0167.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Cennydd, from me you get Abject Worship Lite. I think you've been doing an excellent, excellent job with the Tarot thing -- very thougtful and illuminating. However, a couple of things still bother me. First, a note on textevd as applied to the Tarot. Reading the Tarot is a very intuitive thing. Read the description of a card, say, The Moon, in six different books on the Tarot, and you'll have six rather different interpretations. Not to mention the fact that many decks have somewhat specific ideas relevant in particular to that deck -- though usually not inapplicable elsewhere. As people spend some time with the Tarot, they begin to get a "feel" for which interpretations seem right to them, depending on the cards they're using, the person they're reading for, the surrounding cards, and just a personal feeling about the card. Most readers have a few cards that they work best with, that they in a sense have a personal relationship with. So, when discussing the meaning of these cards, I'm using a combination of sources, shifted and blended in ways that I've found constructive and revealing in the past. Cennydd is interpreting some of the cards differently, *which is okay.* That's the nature of Tarot cards. (BTW, I personally use the Legend deck for my own use, and the Morgan-Greer when a more traditional deck seems most appropriate.) I still like Talia for the High Priestess. In my notes, the High Priestess represents moral clarity and knowing what is good for people, which is the real essence of the Queen's Own, especially an empathic Queen's Own. It also talks about leadership potential that needs to be utilized, women in power, and female rulership. It seems to me that the evolution of Talia's character revolves around her gaining the strength and self-confidence to move from a position of potential leadership to a position of real, moral and temporal authority and fill it well. There is also a mention of feminine spiritual strength, and again Talia seems to be one of the more explicitly spiritual characters, given how she affects Solaris enough to make her an honorary Sunpriest, and how seriously Talia takes that. Solaris, absolutely, the Hierophant. Works quite well. I don't remember who Cen used as Temperance, but I'd like to suggest Savil in that position. My notes on Temperance say that it includes the ability to adapt to new circumstances (Savil was always resilient), good guidance from the higher self (she was certainly a guide/mentor figure), and other good, Savilish qualities such as mature love, positive, balanced activity, wisdom, and creativity. I've never percieved The Fool as a "person" or "quality" card, but rather as a "situation" card. The Fool is not a specific type of person; he is all of us at one time or another in our lives. The Fool represents the beginning of a new cycle or new enterprises, and unexpected, unplanned change of direction of life, the experience of heading toward an unknown future. It also symbolizes a point in life where one's hidden talents surface or one's life takes a new creative turn. In this respect, I think it's best summed up by almost any character as they first appear in the book -- I'm partial to Vanyel. Vanyel is pure potential at this point, like the Fool, headed into a new life for which he has neither planned nor prepared, at a point when nothing will ever be the same for him again. Wow, hard work. You can see why doing an entire deck of these, major and minor arcana, would be draining. Definitely read Tailchaser's Song. It's an excellent book, and IMO much better than the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy. Williams is a great writer, but that series was pretty standard -- lowly servant boy who saves the world, good prince and evil prince contesting for the throne, mysterious, all-powerful league of wizards, etc. etc. Again, though, well-written. I just wish someone as talented as Williams would stick to the really creative stuff that he does so well -- like Tailchaser's Song and Caliban's Hour. There are plenty of people out there willing to do those been there, done that High Fantasy jobs. (Robert Jordan alone is pretty much holding up that corner of the market right now.) HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 96 19:55:24 -0400 From: Korendil To: "Misty List" Subject: Braves Braidsson Battles Other Time Consumers To Read List! Message-ID: <9610250000.AA17198-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> >Response: If the whole world were Misty characters it would be a very >different world. Most women/girls however are taught to be cute, cuddley, >warm, soft spoken, don't ask, don't be rude, don't win the game, let the >boys >win, ..... We teach our girls to mold themselves to others. It would be >nice >to have the pendulum swing the other way so maybe we could balance out the >course. Just my humble opinion. Are you sure that's still how it is today? From a male's probably not-very-clear perspective, it seems much more equal nowadays, at least at school, which is what really counts, right? The future an' all? >Oy, of all the things I want out of life, more information about >Falconsbane definitely did not make the list. I got so bloody tired of >him after the Winds trilogy, always pacing and plotting and cackling >like a bad stage villain (grandmothers wear black...stage villains wear >black... sorry, quote's all wrong, but I have no copy of the book on >hand), in case we forget for two seconds that he's Evil. Christ, we get >it. Hehehe..more info about ma'ar'ed be kewl, though. And the all time worst misty villian position is still held by Hadenalith(sp?)... >I don't know much about Sunsinger and Shadowdancer but I remember >seeing in the archives somewhere that Sunsinger and Shadowdancer were >Valdemarans who were cursed (?) and later were Chosen. I'm not sure >if the descriptions seem related by accident or whether Misty had >something more in mind. Maybe someone else will pick this up? Ah, see, this is an old thread I don't mind, since we never really agreed on anything about it...imo, the latter is right: they were heralds who had a hard life. Ken, I think, holds the assumption that they're just a myth based off a common one of putting the gods in somewhere (gods I'm mangling that...ken...or whoever it was..pick up;>)....It's just that, imo, it was too short a time ago for it to be totally messed up, especially in a place like valdemar with excellent records. >> Has there been any case in Valdemar where a Chosen named their Companion? Well, there's Silkswift...only one that comes to mind, really. I know there're other..hm... exclaims at a strange entry found: MOON-STEEDS: In Valdemaran Religion, they draw the Lady's Chariot Now...lesse...we have the link betwixt Vkandis and teh Star-Eyed, Vkandis's worhsipper's proximity to valdemar, the star-eyed's interest in valdemar, valdemar's lord and lady(astera OF THE STARS, who the concordance says is a warrior-less version of the the star-eyed)...and now something dealing with the moon? Hmmm.... well, there's kyldathar, neave's companion..all we know is that neave is from outKingdom, but he might be rethwellan, for whom a name like kyldathar would be pretty terse;P ooo...I see something to back up my little tale about how those space-prone barges would work: the Hounds, which are stars that chase the sun at dusk...and provide a regular clock for evening hours...just like the Three Sisters!;P Fortunea, Jadus' companion, sounds relatively artificial...and that's all I can find. Then again, the corocrdance isn't very reliable, I jsut discovereD: it doesn't have Cymry, and it lists a guy both as Hapkins, Jon, and Jon Hapkins.. >1 - prologue to AFlight and AFall. 2 - maybe prologue to WoFate (I'm >not sure, and the book's-+AT+-home) 3 - someone mentions it in BG. 'tis also in the concordance beginning, which IS canon, no? >> Regarding diefication (sp?), I personally don't want to be a god, but what >> are the restrictions on becoming a priest of this pantheon? I mean being a >> god is all well and good, but every god needs followers, right? How about it >> Lady Thess, can I be a priest and start collecting tithes? > >Well, actually, I don't think it has exactly come up before, but you >wouldn't apply to Lady Thess (unless you want to be her priest). You need >to apply to the particular god or gods that you wish to worship/serve. >Might I just take a moment to point out, btw, that as God of Karma, I >offer the best retirement plan in the pantheon. Think about it! Retirement plan? blah....*I'M* the God with the best night-life...live your life....not waste it trying to make sure you don't get brought back as a slug! And when's the best time to live? NIGHT! Complimentary caffiene cantrips will be given to the founding members of Korendilism. >Well, what do you all think? Where's the difference between >Tarma/Companion and an avatar? And what makes her avatars different from >the idea of avatar in our world? Well, remmeber: Tarma-in-ghost-form is restricted..iirc, in Obreakers, the only way her teacher could contact her was with hand signals...because of a sheild or something. Not to mention they have less power, methinks. And companions don't have, i think, a direct link to the gods at all..they got assignments, were sent back, have some abilities, but are mostly on their own...avatars, on the other hand, are always in contact with the deities, and have LOADS of power... >I strongly disagree with Solaris as the Hight Priestess. She is quite >definitely a better choice for the Heirophant. Remember that the High >Priestess is a representative of Mystery as much as anything else. She >represents things like wisdom, common sense, serenity, self-reliance, >hidden knowledge and wisdom, she is one of the major cards for magic, too. >This is why I thought of Savil. She is a transmitter of knowledge about >the Mysteries (magical ones, at least), she is is generally serene, >self-reliant, and she keeps her emotions concealed to present the world >with a generally calm, serene image. Another characteristic that fits her >is the lack of patience with fools and that ilk. Um..um...question: have you read Storm Rising? You know..the book where we meet solaris and all and find out how much like selenay she is and how smart and self-reliant she is and almost kills karal for JUmping to tremane and all? >if they were consorts, it would be truly hard for them -- as has been >pointed out >He is the Sun and she is the Starry Sky (night sky) and stars usually don't >show in the sky when the sun is still up. Makes me think of LadyHawke >(sniff. I love that movie. pass the kleenex) Wonder how they did over come >the curse? The details, not just mystic mumblings of song lyrics That'd aslo give the impression that they can't overstep each other, which I truly doubt...and, btw, imo they were released from the curse when astera and kernos got note of how they'd helped the heir the the country they BOTH are involved in.. >Personally, as a goal-directed person, I like Misty's women, but I wish >they had a better sense of humor! Or at least better developed..I mean...what's the humor value in calling elspeth "my little cat", or wtf talia used to say...unless it's a running joke we readers weren't given wind of;> >Kalen'el Star-eyed, 'goddess of the moon' Well, actually, she's more of the stars...we have her kaled'a'in branch star-eyed form and the valdemaran astera of the STARS aspect.. >OBMisty: As long as we're wishing for Misty to fill in gaps how about a book >on Selenay's youth and early reign? I mean Tedrell wars, treason, all the >best sports!!!!!<-count 'em Yeah..that'd definitely be a kewl book, but I think the main problem is: there's no more space on the timeline! It'd go under selenay's reign, mostly, and they had to use a smaller font to even FIT owlflight!;P It reall is true, though...there was a lot fo juicy plot then, and we might finally meet Keighvin....and a young Jadus! >Some of Misty's "romantic subplots" strike me as obnoxious, because >they're so backhanded. Kethry and Jadrek come to mind, as well as Kero >and Eldan, and Karal and Natoli. No. NOt Karal and Natoli. If you might recall, they're trying their best to develop a relationship for the first time, while at the SAME TIME averting a GLOBAL DISASTER! Then you add in that Karal is halfway across the continent and's too shy to even---whoops, this is getting into spoiler-ville...um..well..in any case, I think the karal natoli thing is very well done, for what it is...it's a very tentative relationship, remember...and I wouldn't be surprised to find that these are just baby-steps... > I have a >heck of a lot of trouble relating to characters who have less sex drive >than Vaneyl's Companion To make your well done arguement/essay a petty little thing...Yfanes DID have a sex life! Remember the stallion with the cute--erm, nose?;P >It appears from the responses and comments directed to me that I should >apologize for suggesting people can discuss topics freely and that if you >don't like the subject to delete them. For gods' sakes, Ms. Sanford, don't write this kind of email. It's mostly a just an excuse to use an 'apology' as a way to argue even more. And, btw, the reason there was lots of stuff you "didn't understand" is because this list has developed a sort of..culture...over the years, and we have in-jokes. Personally, either wait until you understand those jokes before posting, or just jump right in...it doesn't, btw, take much imagination to think "hmm..let's see..this list has been around for over 2 1/2 years...they might just have a FAQ [btw, milady listmistress mel: I thought that the faw was sent when you joined the list?], and in any case, they've probably discussed a lot of this stuff before, so I should expect groans..." And if you HAD RTFM before coming on here, then you'd know EXACTLY what would happen when you post saying things like "Well, you can just delete." >Question, and if it's been done could someone please give a consice >answer? I was rereadimg the first winds and just who controls the >Valdemar mental block over magic, Vanyel or the Companions? I'd say neither: the vrondi do...I think... >Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 900 WHOAH! 900?!!!! We're up to NINE HUNDRED?!!!!!<--- -+AT+-LIDNEROK________________________________________________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of All Things Nocturnal, Ailurophile, and #Macintosh Op. |U BED.NET____________________________________________________TEN.DEB ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 901 *********************************