MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 917 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) SFBC gets SB/TDC/Other Authors/Sheep or consequences by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 2) Re: Braves Encounters The Rare Mini-Braid by Ken Hyde 3) Re: Braves Encounters The Rare Mini-Braid by Korendil 4) Circles/Re: Braves/Happy B-Day/Magewar Fluff/High Priestess by ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Circles/Re: Braves/Happy B-Day/Magewar Fluff/High Priestess by Korendil 6) One True Way (TM) by "Hth." 7) Thou/Circles by "Hth." 8) bday/Circles responses/One True Way/High Priestess by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 9) wizards and writing (lots of ways) by "Emily L Cartier" 10) Romeo/Happy Birthday/One True Way by Soljan-+AT+-aol.com 11) Fluff/Re:High Priestess by ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com 12) Re: Circles/Re: Braves/Happy B-Day/Magewar Fluff/High Priestess by Ken Hyde 13) My Savior by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:10:21 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: SFBC gets SB/TDC/Other Authors/Sheep or consequences Message-ID: A little note in this months SFBC thing says they'll have SB in next month's! Yea! Only one more month and I can play too! About TDC, I assumed that there was some threshold value for damage to be done at and this only occurs where crests reinforce each other and in a small, but growing, area nearby. Thus when you get down to, for example, 1.98(Crest value) you no longer see effects. Undine, thanx for the news on the sequel to "Exile's Song." I hoped it would be out soon, especially as the end of ES seemed a real case of "Cut it off here, that's enough pages for one book." Whoeverall mentioned Lois Bujold's books, yes Cetaganda is good. I read it in serial in Analog and then bought the hardback as soon as SFBC had it! Just finished reading "Memory" wich is listed in the timeline as "Miles hits 30, 30 hits back." Great read and the places it goes! More unexpected than Mark getting fat in "Mirror Dance!" Must dash, finally got a copy of "Lions" by GGK and am off to insomnia! Whose turn is it to ... uhm, comfort the sheep? David Tiffany, Gotta Typo White, adj and n. Black. -Ambrose Bierce ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 03:38:03 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braves Encounters The Rare Mini-Braid Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Korendil wrote: > Yeah, 'cos they're the only two gods AROUND, and they always either > choose different cultures or be co-deities...yes, yes..now I'll get all > the stuff about "Noooo...if Misty actual does what you want her to, > everything will be RUINED, since it makes everything all cut and dry and > blah blah blah...", but imo, they SHOULD Be the only ones... You know, I would say that this was very un-Misty, except that I have come to the conclusion that it is actually very Misty. I am more coming to the conclusion that Misty's touting the "no one true way" is a crock. She seems quite convinced that there is one true way and it is the Heralds of Valdemar way, backed up by the Goddess and God who are always the same although they may be known by different names. I have a feeling that if she writes the Velgarth stuff for long enough, we will find out that every deity is either Vkandis or the Star-Eyed. We will also see the institution of Heralds spread until they are welcomed and empowered in every nation of Velgarth, becoming the thought-police of a PC de facto empire that is, in size, beyond the wildest imaginings even of Ma'ar. It will be a world in which equal rights are available to everyone, as long as they are just like everyone else in the ways that count. Hmmmm. You know, I probably shouldn't write these posts late at night after I have some time to get cynical. I find myself pulling together threads from the tapestry of the Velgarth books to create a picture that is less than attractive. Somebody convince me that Misty is not, at heart, a true Okie, convinced of the rightness of her vision above all others. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 96 04:12:58 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: Braves Encounters The Rare Mini-Braid Message-ID: <9611030918.AA20404-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> /me thumps head again: Ok..Mental Mistylist Note Two: Do NOT Post = Anythign That Does Not Mean Exactly What You Meant It To, For Then = The Great and Powerful Cennydd WIll Construe It In Its True If Not = Meant Monstrosity. ya' know, ken..that's either a new angle on the "no! not = two gods!" theory, or I've skipped o'er them for too long;> But..I = hate to say: you're right...but only in a way, I think...the Valdemar = Way IS right...if followed, which, unfortunately, it isn't...I just = realized that. When everyone gasps in horror at Darkwind's exotic = nature...they're breaking the One Law. The thing is...the One Law is = too small...it doesn't *work*...if there's no true way, then Ancar = shouldn't have been fought against..since his way isn't bad, just = different. MIsty should have everyone in Valdemar petition to have = amend it with the wicca wossname of do as you will, but harm none... You are right. As we read along, we keep on thinking that Valdemar = should win, that Ancar should die..that Rethwellan is backwards and = idiotic in its dislike for homosexuals (well, it is...but not by the = valdemaran creed)...misty has us not like her bad guys, like her good = guys...but that isn't compatible with the way valdemar should = work...it shouldn't do anything against cultures that are different = or against people because they do horrible things...it's like when = you get so annoyed at the justice system in america becauser it gives = the villains all the chances so that the hero that slips in by = mistake doesn't get hurt; that it should just do what's RIGHT, since = the accused so obviously did it...Misty wanted to make it like the = former, but it's ended up as the latter. Strange. My most verbose post in ages occurs when I'm awake through = caffeine and the metabolisation(sp?) of music... Hmm. What if Misty's been planning all this, and another 10 books or = so down the road Valdemar WILL have become the Velgarthan World = Government and is horrible currupted etc...and we get a nice freedom = fight/insurrection/revolution...Can't you see Mel Gibson in his = Braveheart garb shouting "THERE IS NO ONE TRUE WAY!!!!!" ? ;P Oh, yeah..I'm testing a new sig with this message, and it might = horribly mess up, in which case I'll repost...I have truly pathetic = sig problems, as we all know;> -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of All Things Nocturnal, Ailurophile, and #Macintosh Op. |U B|=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B= =8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B= =8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B|B E|"This was a providential oppurtunity to eat one more apple |E D| turnover before embarking on the unknown. Gavroche stopped, |D .| fumbled in his trousers, felt in his fob, turned out his |. N| pockets, found nothing in them, not a sou, and began to cry, |N E|'Help!' It is hard to just miss out on the ultimate cake." |E T| --Victor Hugo's _Les Miserables_ |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 05:32:31 -0500 From: ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Circles/Re: Braves/Happy B-Day/Magewar Fluff/High Priestess Message-ID: <961103053229_1114320967-+AT+-emout15.mail.aol.com> About all this technical stuff about the mage storm circles involving those evil things called geometry and physics . . . Enough! Pleeeeaaasssssseeeeeee!!!!!!! No one take offense at this, but I am one of those people whose eyes glaze over when such topics are discussed, and yes, whoever said it - your method of hypnotism does indeed work, and not that I'm not impressed at the knowledge of those of you doing the discussing , but don't you think you've proven your point? ============================================================= Kory- Mel Gibson as Braveheart shouting "THERE IS NO ONE TRUE WAY!"? It's frightening that I can picture that, hilariously funny too though . And yes you are having your usual pathetic problems with your sig. ============================================================= Happy Birthday, Summersong! On this glorious day, I gift thee with a magickal book which shall change into whatever book you wish, whenever you wish. Also, the chocolate goody of your choice. ============================================================= Well, this was a short one, don't worry, I'll make up for it . . . Be afraid, be very afraid. Does anyone actually know where that phrase comes from? I've never really thought about it before. Hmm, seems there was something else I was going to say but I can't for the life of me remember. Ah well, I'll think of it. Probably right after I send this. ObMisty: Umm, circles was ontopic wasn't it? MAGEWAR FLUFF WARNING - Ha, now you can't say I didn't warn you . Kory, didn't you say you were going to be re-entering the magewar soon? Well, we're waiiiittttiiiiinnnnngggggg! Oh, and on the subject of High Priestesses, you don't have one do you? If not, I think I should apply for that one. I practically *live* at night, major night person, that qualifies me doesn't it? If not, I'm sure I can think of more, and I promise not to think of silly names for you like Deniz did for Mat . No, really, I Promise. See, my fingers aren't crossed anymore . Okay, now I'm finished. Guess that wasn't so short after all . Blessed Be, NightShade OIB and LotPW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 96 06:10:50 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: Circles/Re: Braves/Happy B-Day/Magewar Fluff/High Priestess Message-ID: <9611031116.AA22484-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> >About all this technical stuff about the mage storm circles involving those >evil things called geometry and physics . . . Enough! I second Jaz's motion...you guys are wasting valuable Misty Essay Points that could be better spent emulating Heather;P And I have to admit that I glazed over too...but, gods...the fact that you guys have multi-page banter abut this COMPLETE WITH GRAPHS and COMPLEX THEOREMS is....scary;> >Kory- Mel Gibson as Braveheart shouting "THERE IS NO ONE TRUE WAY!"? >It's frightening that I can picture that, hilariously funny too though . >And yes you are having your usual pathetic problems with your sig. Yeah..there I was, thinking out it..and I realized there'd hafta be some really climatic scene with something like that, and it just popped into my head;> An di think I fixed the sig probs: the B8's in the sig were caused by using a real-computer specific character; macs have ascii codes that aren't in basic ascii, I guess ...and the ='s were caused by that character going into too many columns, I think... >Happy Birthday, Summersong! > Argh..I forgot! Hmm..time to make it up.. >On this glorious day, I gift thee with a magickal book which shall change >into whatever book you wish, whenever you wish. Also, the chocolate goody of your choice. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ...and I have to best Nightshade's gift, which won't be hard since she didn't follow Ken's rules! Get one case and STICK WITH IT!..hmm... Ok. I, Korendil, Holder of Many and Probably Soon Expanding Titles That Can Be Read In My Sig-If-It's-Working-Now, In My power as God of Night, Patron Deity of All Things Nocturnal, Gift Thee, Summersong and Sometimes Spiffy the Cat, On the Occaison Of Your Birthing Day, With a Set of Eight Dark Chocolate Candies, Enchanted by Myself, That Will Allow Thee To Mentally Travel To Fictional Realms During the Hours That the Sun Shines Not. Bewarned, Thou Shall Not Have Experiences of Truth; All Thou Experiences Happens In Thy Mind ONLY, and Not the Mind Of the Author, nor In the Book Itself. That good enough, summer?;> And you, Ken? Did I use proper grammar, besides the captilization? Btw...please explain the difference between an overt and covert pronoun in the genitive case.. >Kory, didn't you say you were going to be re-entering the magewar soon? Well, >we're waiiiittttiiiiinnnnngggggg! Well, I was GOING to...but then we decided Jag'd save me and my twin..and then I stopped reading for a month..and then Jag went away for awhile..I dunno...I WANT to get back in, someday... >Oh, and on the subject of High Priestesses, >you don't have one do you? If not, I think I should apply for that one. I >practically *live* at night, major night person, that qualifies me doesn't >it? If not, I'm sure I can think of more, and I promise not to think of silly >names for you like Deniz did for Mat her back at glare from Kory>. No, really, I Promise. See, my fingers aren't >crossed anymore . No, I don't have one....but..well...hmm...for example, I'm typing this email at 6 am sunday morning...not after getting up..but before going to sleep. And if you DO qualify, well...tease me all you want;> _I_, unlike SOME gods here, don't mind;> And you forgot another thing that helps your petition...that you're an OIB;> Hmm..you DO use AOL, though. That is a very, very, very bad thing...so come up with good excuses;> Ok, enough fluff;> -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of All Things Nocturnal, Ailurophile, and #Macintosh Op. |U B|______________________________________________________________|B E|"This was a providential oppurtunity to eat one more apple |E D| turnover before embarking on the unknown. Gavroche stopped, |D .| fumbled in his trousers, felt in his fob, turned out his |. N| pockets, found nothing in them, not a sou, and began to cry, |N E|'Help!' It is hard to just miss out on the ultimate cake." |E T| --Victor Hugo's _Les Miserables_ |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 05:21:48 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: One True Way (TM) Message-ID: <03NOV96.05792626.0021.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Hmmmm. Is Misty herself a follower (in print, at least) of the There Is No One True Way school of thought? I think...yes and no? No, not good enough. I'll muddle my way through this by hand, then. I have in the past felt very much what Cennydd articulated (hoo, it's early in the post for the 25cent words). There is a certain moral rigidity to the Valdemaran way of doing things -- primarily, I think, because they have such unfailing trust in their way of doing things. The Companion System is essentially infallible, and so Valdemarans tend to be lazy, trusting that life will just keep grinding on more or less happily, with a kind and wise monarch in charge, aided by the loyal and trustworthy Men and Women in White (no relation). And since their way is by and large perfect, at least in practice, why would they seriously consider any other way? I'm sure most Heralds secretly feel that if other countries were lucky enough to be offered Companions, the Right Thing To Do would certainly be to employ them, just as the Valdemarans have. I think there have lately been some challenges to that in her writing, which I'm happy to see. The Karsites under Solaris have been portrayed quite sympathetically, as a genuinely alternate system that *works.* But on the other hand, the Karsites are becoming increasingly Valdemaran, aren't they? They have spirit guides (Firecats), a duotheistic system (or at least, they're teetering on the edge; I think the transition is basically inevitable for them), and a ruler who is just like Selenay. We'll have to wait and see if Karse retains its distinctively Karsite flavor. I hope so. I fell in love with SWarning because it *did* present another world view, different from the Valdemaran Way, but no less meaningful. I'd like to see it stay. The Tayledras are different; they live in direct opposition to the oft-repeated Valdemaran idea that the nation is its people. For the Tayledras, the heart of the people is inseparable from the spirit of place, from the ancestral land. This is pretty incomprehensible to the average Valdemaran Herald, trained as they are to protect the people, even if it should mean abandoning the land, but it isn't presented as a bad thing or a blind spot. Again, I'd like to see them retain their cultural individuality. But...yes, I think Misty presents a definite worldview that she would very much like us all to adopt. First of all, it's deeply duotheistic, and becoming more so. There is a God and a Goddess, and they show up under different names and with different faces, but it's still The God and The Goddess. And that's one way of looking at things, but it sure isn't my way. I get the feeling it's Misty's, though, although she is not formally Wiccan, or at least doesn't claim to be. I've expressed here before my feelings that her female characters have a chilling similarity to them, as though they represented the only real way of being both female and heroic. I think it's extremely telling that Selenay and Solaris are touted as so much alike. I think it's Misty's oh-so-subtle way of telling us, "This is how a good ruler acts." Serious, dignified, stubb-- ah, determined. Regal, but benevolent. I kinda wanted to see Elspeth become the Queen, just so we could see the Monarch tearing through the halls, having wild mood swings, sparring with her friends in the royal flower gardens, and generally shaking up the office a bit. Why *can't* you rule the country and still be a little roguish, a little boisterous, a little mercurial? Because that's not the way it's done, apparently. Not the *right* way. I really don't think it's that Misty is rigid and exclusionary. I think it's that she's stopped challenging herself. She found a way to be, a way to think, something that works for her, and she's simply ignored other paths. She just does not seem to push the envelope anymore in the way that some of her earlier work did. She was very brave and very idealistic years ago, when she insisted on having utterly independant adventuring women and gay protagonists. Now Xena is the third-rated show in syndication and everytime you turn around there are new queers on the SF shelves, and Misty hasn't kept going. She hasn't continued to break ground, and I expect that also means she hasn't continued to evolve significantly in her own thinking and, if I may say it, spiritual growth. I think Misty, like Valdemar itself, has become complacent. Her system works, and so she begins to assume that if other people only knew what she knows, they'd choose what she's chosen because it works so well. That's so easy to do, and I think we've all done it at one time or another. Usually, though, we meet someone who feels differently, and it's like a board to the back of the head. We think, "This is so strange. I don't feel that way; why would anyone feel that way?" And when we begin to understand why someone else would feel that way, it can change our whole way of thinking about people. I think Misty doesn't give much thought to *why* people choose lives that are not like Misty's ideal life. I think that gives her an inherently limited view of the human experience. All of this is directly out of my own life. I've had myself forcibly opened up to new things on many occasions, and here's the best illustration in the world. By nature, I'm deeply equalitarian (is that a word?). I've always believed that *the right way to be* is in harmony with other people, neither in power over them nor under their power. I tend to think the ideal interpersonal relationship is one of total mutuality, and that only people who live in total mutuality can really have true respect for one another. Now I have this heart-sister who is an S&M player, and a committed submissive. She is intensely intelligent, creative, beautiful, wise, and talented, and my knee-jerk reaction was to think that she was making some terrible mistake, that she was choosing a life that was simply wrong and unhealthy. She obviously didn't have enough respect for herself, and never would at this rate. Well, I've learned since then. I've learned that however strongly committed I feel to the kind of life I want, that doesn't mean that my choices are necessarily the right choices for her. She has so much respect for herself that she plans to insist on the life that will make her happy, in spite of the fact that 99% of the world will never understand it and never approve, and I think that's amazingly brave and the absolute essence of integrity and honor. I also have learned a lot since then about exactly what S&M is, and why, and what kind of people choose it. I can tell you that none of my preconcieved ideas were correct. Those are the kind of experiences in life that keep you from becoming self-righteous and intolerant. I'm not saying that if you get to know absolutely anyone, you'll find that their ideas are as valid as yours. I *do* think some things are just wrong. But I try to make that decision after I know what there is to know about the subject, not just assume things based on "common knowledge" or the media. And knowing what there is to know means talking with and listening to the people who hold other views, and treating them, at least initially, with a modicum of intellectual respect. In SWarning, I felt like that was going to happen with the Karsites, that they were going to be treated with respect, as people who were different and yet not inferior. Now it seems like Misty may be drifting away from, "They aren't like me, but they're okay," and toward, "They're okay, so they must really be like me, deep down." Which would be a damn shame, but I think would simply stem from a refusal to think in new ways. Probably because of personal feelings about Christianity, she has decided that it's not okay to be monotheistic, and so instead of challenging herself to consider why a person of conscience might be monotheistic, she's waving her author's wand and making the Sunpriests duotheistic. I really have every confidence in Misty's ability to expand her thinking, should she ever decide to do so. I think that kind of rigidity is a common characteristic of people who were brought up in a "traditional" environment and become non-traditional. After this tremendous revelatory experience when they realize that the way they were raised isn't necessarily right, they feel like they've gained enlightenment, and they forget that enlightenment is not one tremendous earthshaking experience, but an ongoing process. There is *always* more to learn. Sometimes the more people feel like they have learned and changed, the less they assume they will need to learn and change in the future. It may be very telling that Misty's characters are prone to achieving perfection. Talia and Dirk are, for all intents and purposes, perfect human beings at this stage of their lives. Tarma and Kethry were, for all intents and purposes, perfect. Kerowyn, Shelyra, in many ways even Elspeth, have really reached the pinnacle of their moral development. Misty seems to hold the belief that if one simply tries hard enough, one really *can* achieve perfection, usually before the age of 30. Which is not only untrue and unrealistic, but also potentially harmful. It's a short step from believing a person can be perfect to believing that you are perfect yourself, and therefore, have nothing left to learn, but much to teach. Of late, Misty's been teaching a lot, and I haven't seen much evidence that she's been learning, or at least not changing. Again, I wouldn't say this exactly means that her mind is permenantly closed in a dogmatic, One True Way sort of fashion. The mere idea that There Is No One True Way leaves open the potential for growth. But right now it seems to be primarily potential -- at least until her channels are blasted open And it may take something that dramatic and that painful, in a metaphorical sense, to change a way of thinking that is becoming increasingly ingrained over the years. Who knows? Ahh, the joys of long, philosophical conversations with a keyboard at 5 a.m. HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu May your deeds with sheep and yaks Equal those with sword and axe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 05:49:42 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Thou/Circles Message-ID: <03NOV96.06294727.0021.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Close, Kory. However.... "on the occasion of _THY_ birthing day" (pick a case and stick with it, as you so eloquently advised someone else) "thou _shalt_ not have" and you'll really want to use "all thine experiences happen" or "all that thou experience happens." I don't know quite how to conjugate "to experience" in the second-person informal, but my hunch is that there is no good way, so the second-person formal will have to do. "All thine experiences happen" is more on the safe side. I, too, glaze over when presented with geometry, but I don't mind the circle discussion. At first sighting of a graph, I merely delete the post and smile indulgently at all these Very Smart People. It's the same thing I do when my father starts talking astrophysics with Barb, and it serves me well HTH r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu May your deeds with sheep and yaks Equal those with sword and axe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 12:44:12 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: bday/Circles responses/One True Way/High Priestess Message-ID: <199611031753.MAA14941-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> SUMMERSONG, qoS Quch (Summersong) That's birthday greetings for all you who don't read Klingon. Now, for the gift. Lesseee, I gift you, Summersong, with your very own high-tech, complete with spiffy looking but really useless graphs and diagrams, personal Klingon cloaking device. Be careful, though. If Spiffy gets his paws on it, you'll never stop him 'till the batteries run out! If it weren't for that danger (who wants a cloaked cat on the loose?), I would have made it solar powered. :) ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() David Tiffany said: >>About TDC, I assumed that there was some threshold value for damage to be done at and this only occurs where crests reinforce each other and in a small, but growing, area nearby. Thus when you get down to, for example, 1.98(Crest value) you no longer see effects.<< Yeah, well, you also should consider the stuff past -1.98 as well, and that's still a hell of a lot of damage in a hell of a lot more than two points. Nightshade said: >>About all this technical stuff about the mage storm circles involving those evil things called geometry and physics . . . Enough! Pleeeeaaasssssseeeeeee!!!!!!! No one take offense at this, but I am one of those people whose eyes glaze over when such topics are discussed, and yes, whoever said it - your method of hypnotism does indeed work, and not that I'm not impressed at the knowledge of those of you doing the discussing , but don't you think you've proven your point? << Yes, but what's the point? Somebody who is not directly involved in the discussion please tell us what it is. Korendil said: >>I second Jaz's motion...you guys are wasting valuable Misty Essay Points that could be better spent emulating Heather;P And I have to admit that I glazed over too...but, gods...the fact that you guys have multi-page banter abut this COMPLETE WITH GRAPHS and COMPLEX THEOREMS is....scary;><< What? Wasting valuable Misty Essay Points? There Is No One True Way, I'll have you know! At least not in my book, and I'll explain more later. I thought the Graphs (Diagrams) helped explain it, and I didn't see any Complex Theorems. There were a few simple mathematical relationships that I recall, but it's nothing like, ohhh, Taylor's. All the Geometry I learned in 9th grade, the Physics was 11th. And I didn't use any Calculus. I could if I thought about it, but I'd rather work on an anti-homing coconut device! Heather said: >>I, too, glaze over when presented with geometry, but I don't mind the circle discussion. At first sighting of a graph, I merely delete the post and smile indulgently at all these Very Smart People. It's the same thing I do when my father starts talking astrophysics with Barb, and it serves me well << Thank you for the indulgent smile, but how do you know there isn't a translation imbedded in the discussion? I know I put a few in. The diagrams were simply to illustrate there were more than two points. And stop knocking yourself. We're just "Very Smart People" according to our society's "Scientists are the only Smart People" thinking. I wouldn't hesitate to call all of us Very Obsessed People, but Smart? That implies that everyone else is Not Smart, and I don't believe that one bit. Heather, I personally think you're amazing when it comes to pontificating the finer points of character. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% the highly esteemed and(dare I say it?) Very Smart Heather said: >>All of this is directly out of my own life. I've had myself forcibly opened up to new things on many occasions, and here's the best illustration in the world. By nature, I'm deeply equalitarian (is that a word?). I've always believed that *the right way to be* is in harmony with other people, neither in power over them nor under their power. I tend to think the ideal interpersonal relationship is one of total mutuality, and that only people who live in total mutuality can really have true respect for one another.<< The word is egalitarian. I think that I've grown up in a startlingly similar way, but where I grew up makes it interesting. I grew up in Saudi Arabia. I've had people come up to me asking me, "Wait, women aren't equal there, right?" followed by, "How can they live that way?" I try to explain that a lot of it's a culture thing. It's what they've always known, and they're used to living that way. What I'm trying to say is that their culture has just as deep roots as "our" western culture (if not deeper), so who are we to barge in and say, "You're wrong."? Their way is different, granted. But it works for them. It has worked for them for centuries. Now we're going to come in on our high and mighty horse and say, "What you're doing is barbaric, uncivilized, and immoral to boot. Here's the right way to live." Small wonder there's a host of resentment towards Western Society in the Middle East. What happened to Saudi Arabia is, they were happy living the way they were until all the oil stuff happened, and then a bunch of Westerners came and proceeded to turn their world, and culture, upside down. Now, the thing that I guess scares me most about the Heralds is how they are Chosen. That makes them mandated by deities. Not only do they have political power, but they also have a spiritual power. (It's the same in Islaamic societies. The body of law is derived from the Quran and Muhammad's actions.) It might not be recognized by everyone, but we all remember Darkwind's reaction to seeing Companions. This scares me because I believe in "seperation of church and state." It scares me that not only could they say, "What you're doing is wrong," but they could also say, "What you're thinking is wrong." I know Heralds don't do this, per se, but they imply it. The one thing that redeems Heralds to me is their Honor. That is what I can respect in them, wholeheartedly. I've been working on making myself honorable, and damn is it hard. Okay, there's a Ray Bradbury short story that addresses this point -- I think it's in the collection _The Invisible Man_. I read it 5 years ago, so can't remember what it's called, so if you find it, please tell me. Ummmm, I think that's all I had to say about that for right now. I'll probably think of more after I post and everyone reacts. ------------------- Nightshade said: >>Oh, and on the subject of High Priestesses, you don't have one do you? If not, I think I should apply for that one. and I promise not to think of silly names for you like Deniz did for Mat . No, really, I Promise. See, my fingers aren't crossed anymore .<< Ouch. Those silly names were an indication of my love for Mat and my endeavors towards deriving the most pleasure out of procrastinating. Will I ever live this down? love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |I was a brassbound Idealist in those days. of Procrastination and Holy |If you are an Idealist it does not matter Custodian of the B-Day List. |what you do or what goes on around you Confused? Write me! |because it isn't real anyway. dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA -- Robert Penn Warren ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:22:44 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: wizards and writing (lots of ways) Message-ID: <9611031924.AA06905-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Deniz said *Emily said: *>>Mat the Cat (torturer! ) said<< * *Whoa! Hold up! Since when is Mat a Cat Torturer?! Get real! Next the High Priestess's God spoke from on high *> >>Oh, and the "torturer" thing referred to my gloating that I have *> the Diane Duane Wizard book that's only in the US by SFBC (I've got *> the british version).<< *> *> Oh, that's OK, then. Sorry, Em. Umm, what are her books, should I *start them, *> and if so, where? And commanded His Priestess: *Yes, read read read. I command you My daughter, find a copy of _So *You Want to Be a Wizard_ by Diane Duane. It's just been rereleased in *the States, so you may actually be able to find it. If you're in the *SciFi book club, get the omnibus edition of parts 1-3, _Support Your *Local Wizard_ (which is what I've got). I first read SYWTBAW when *I was in grade school. I loved it, but never knew of any sequels. *Then, my brother and I went halves on joining the SFBC. I saw *the omnibus title, and was interested, so I got it (for a penny!). I second the part about it being hard to find. I heard about the series somewhere and didn't get to read it til I was about 14. Then I had the hardest time finding all the books (sob!). In fact I didn't get _So You Want to Be a Wizard_ until about a month ago (and now it is at home so my little sister can read it... for the first time; moan!). Thank you Great God of Procrastination (whom I worship just by writing this as I have an essay on Yentl due Wed. for religion that I am putting off) for defending me (and Diane Duane). Gloating about having _A Wizard Abroad_ does count as torture (I've been waiting for that book since about 1992). I am just praying to the God of ISBN numbers that the University Bookstore can manage to get me a copy before I am a sophmore (is there a God of ISBN numbers? and if so, can I be their priestess? or did I just invent them?). Kory (the guy with the ears) said about Vkandis and the Star-Eyed: *Yeah, 'cos they're the only two gods AROUND, and they always either *choose different cultures or be co-deities...yes, yes..now I'll get *all the stuff about "Noooo...if Misty actual does what you want her to, *everything will be RUINED, since it makes everything all cut and dry *and blah blah blah...", but imo, they SHOULD Be the only ones... I agree that they are the only gods on Velgarth, but as HTH mentioned, it might not be a Good Thing (tm). I was complaining about the Velgarth books getting... hmm. Not stale, annoying. What I meant was pretty much HTH's arguements against Kalenel and Vkandis being the only two gods. Things are getting a little too perfect in Misty's world, in spite of the Mage Storms (and certain events in SB). I'm not sure where the problem comes from, but I haven't noticed it in her latest urban fantasies. The Fire Rose wasn't exactly her best work, but it wasn't half bad. She didn't fall back on her Easy Magickal System (tm) and she didn't have a happily ever after ending. In that world she took a look at Elemental Magick and I found it interesting. It sure wasn't what I expected from her. In my last post I made a comment calling Misty my light reading, vs. Katherine Kurtz and Lois McMaster Bujold. Misty mostly writes happily ever after stuff that makes you think. She tends to keep her main characters alive at the end of a book (refreshing change from KK, who is all too likely to kill off the hero and co. at the end of every book) and she usually gives her characters problems that can be solved (notice how often Miles pulls a DRAW out of his hat or Mark's ear, and it is an improvement on the situation). Darn it, I don't like everyone dying cause there is no solution to the problem, but I don't like everyone living happily ever after just like *that* either. I don't want Misty ever doing two Velgarth trilogies at the same time ever again. The plots had potential (mostly) but the writing suffered too much. We pretty much unanimously hate the Silver Gryphon, and we mostly agree that the White Gryphon wasn't so hot. There are lots of quibbles about the Storms trilogy in general too. At this point I think Misty could really use at least a yearlong break from Velgarth to get some distance and think about *where* she wants to go with it. Gee, another rant. That's two days in a row. WOW!!!!!<--look 5 Does anyone else think that the SERRAted Edge books and the Di Tregarde books have caused them to do more thinking about ethics etc. lately (vs. Valdemar)? I want questions, comments, rants and anything else we can come up with. Emily the invisible PS Is anyone else out there tired of waiting for Kelson to finally get married? It has been 10 years now (our time) and I'd like to see KK do a happily ever after that is completely and deleriously happy. At this rate Kelson is gonna die without issue, and Rory names his oldest after his beloved cousin. Bye, Emily Cartier ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 14:45:31 -0500 From: Soljan-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Romeo/Happy Birthday/One True Way Message-ID: <961103144530_1880663891-+AT+-emout14.mail.aol.com> Someone said, and Mat replied: << Segue: Just saw Romeo and Juliet tonight....if you can survive the first 20 minutes, which are *horrendous*, I recommend it. The rest of the movie more than makes up for it, once you get used to the style. And some parts are literally stop-your-heart wonderful. God, I love Shakespeare.<< > Ok. I want to go see it anyway. I like Shakespeare. > I really want to see that movie. It sounds really good, plus I like Shakespeare as well. I think I'm the only one in my class who does. I certainly seem like the only one who understands it. We didn't spend too much time on Romeo and Juliet last year though. Happy Birthday Summersong! A present, let me think. There aren't many tangible things that are related to my goddesshead. =) Ummm... I now present to you, Summersong, your birthing day gift. It is a silver ring, with a heart shaped stone that turns whatever color you wish, whenever you wish. It will grant you the ability to know exactly what to say in a time of strong emotion. Enjoy. Heather wrote: >>Talia and Dirk are, for all intents and purposes, perfect human beings at this stage of their lives. Tarma and Kethry were, for all intents and purposes, perfect. Kerowyn, Shelyra, in many ways even Elspeth, have really reached the pinnacle of their moral development. Misty seems to hold the belief that if one simply tries hard enough, one really *can* achieve perfection, usually before the age of 30.<< First off, that was brilliant Heather. I never really thought about that, but now that the topic is there, I agree. About being perfect. You're right. They are perfect. Dirk and Talia had faults growing up, but those seem to have disappeared. Elspeth was far from perfect in winds, but I have a feeling that that is changing too. Whenever I create a character, I always, always make sure they have a fault. Otherwise they seem inhuman. It does seem like Misty is taking the easy road. She found something that works, and she doesn't want to take risks on something new. I think that Karse would be better off without Companion-like Firecats. It makes them seem too simliar. The bondbirds border on that too...they aren't spirits, but they are a mindlinked animal. I, however, can see why this might be happening. I know that many of my characters are the exact same person inside, with a different body. Firecat is slowly melting into Silvermoon. Why? I don't have the time I'd like to think about how she would react. Firecat is supposed to be showy, and a bit flamboyant. Any mage war participants know that she isn't like that now. I can make up an excuse for that, but I have to get her back on track. All my characters seem to melt into a Silvermoon-type. Why? She's a lot like me, so the reactions I write, are often what mine would be. The faults are often similar. 'Moon is very sensitive. So are two of my other characters. One is supposed to be quiet as well, and so far she hasn't been. They other is supposed to be moody, and that hasn't come through either. Misty has rafts of characters, and I'm having trouble with about 10. About 4 of them are the people they should be. That's less than half. I think I'll stop now. I've been quite talkative. Lady Silvermoon LIG, Leader of the DDMF, Goddess of Sensitivity "We're boss at denial, but best at forget.." _Little Things_ Bush ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:13:05 -0500 From: ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Fluff/Re:High Priestess Message-ID: <961103151303_1549733574-+AT+-emout09.mail.aol.com> Kory wrote: > Hmm.. you DO use AOL, though. That is a very, very, very bad thing...so come up > with good excuses;> What's wrong with AOL ? Okay, umm . . . the devil made me do it? Nah, pagans don't believe in him. My evil twin did it? Aliens, maybe? I know, it's all my mothers fault. Don't ask how, but it is . Would you believe the aol president hypnotized me with subliminal messages in one of those monthly letters he sends out, you know the ones that say "You will use Aol. No other service exists . . . "? Yeah, that's what happened. Anyway, so my qualifications are: 1. I'm a total night person. 2. I'm One In Black 3. My name is NightShade - what better name for your High Priestess? I think that's enough. So, what say you, oh Majestic Pointy Eared One? . Oh, and since you want a book on Wicca, have you tried telling your mom it's for a report you're doing for school? Just a thought. ============================================================= Deniz wrote, in response to something I said: > Ouch. . Will I ever live this down? Don't worry, Deniz, that was just gentle teasing. Besides, Kory doesn't mind being teased, soooo I shall follow your lead. Wanna help me think of silly names for him ? Okay, that's it for now. Blessed Be, NightShade OIB, LotPW, and (hopefully soon to be) High Priestess Of All Things Nocturnal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 16:59:58 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Circles/Re: Braves/Happy B-Day/Magewar Fluff/High Priestess Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Korendil wrote: > >About all this technical stuff about the mage storm circles involving those > >evil things called geometry and physics . . . Enough! > > I second Jaz's motion...you guys are wasting valuable Misty Essay Points > that could be better spent emulating Heather;P And I have to admit that I > glazed over too...but, gods...the fact that you guys have multi-page > banter abut this COMPLETE WITH GRAPHS and COMPLEX THEOREMS is....scary;> And I have to say, to those of you who complain about the circles and geometry: "Take a chill lozenge!" Here we finally manage to find an on-topic Misty-related subject for conversation, which has not been done 400 times in the past, and you want to stifle us? This is a Mercedes Lackey discussion list, remember? The geometry and physics are part of a discussion about Mercedes Lackey's writing, remember? If the discussion isn't fluffy and off-topic enough for you, learn to deal! As for emulating Heather, I thought that the discussion about the physics of magic was emulating Heather, in a way. We are making an in-depth, well-argued analysis of an important aspect of the plot of one of Misty's series. Sounds a lot like what Heather does. Heck, Deniz and some of the others have even injected tidbits of their personal likes and dislikes and experiences. What more could you ask for. Anyway, This Is A Flame: Telling people who are engaged in a non-fluffy, on-topic discussion to shut up, because you aren't interested is rude! Don't do it anymore, please. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, (who has had a cold for *way* too long and is feeling very cranky right now; thank you very much) Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Nov 96 18:25:14 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: My Savior Message-ID: <199611032334.SAA00077-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Ken Hyde wrote: >And I have to say, to those of you who complain about the circles and >geometry: "Take a chill lozenge!" Here we finally manage to find an >on-topic Misty-related subject for conversation, which has not been done >400 times in the past, and you want to stifle us? This is a Mercedes >Lackey discussion list, remember? The geometry and physics are part of a >discussion about Mercedes Lackey's writing, remember? If the discussion >isn't fluffy and off-topic enough for you, learn to deal! As for >emulating Heather, I thought that the discussion about the physics of >magic was emulating Heather, in a way. We are making an in-depth, >well-argued analysis of an important aspect of the plot of one of Misty's >series. Sounds a lot like what Heather does. Heck, Deniz and some of the >others have even injected tidbits of their personal likes and dislikes and >experiences. What more could you ask for. > >Anyway, This Is A Flame: Telling people who are engaged in a non-fluffy, >on-topic discussion to shut up, because you aren't interested is rude! >Don't do it anymore, please. Oh, yeah! You go, Girlfriend! Let me say right now, "Umm, everything he said!" I completely agree with you, and am saddenned by the mental image of people deleting my posts before reading them all the way through. I put a lot of effort into these things, and included translations for those who didn't want to think through the equations. And besides, they weren't all completely all about the circles. Some of them also had other things like a cheer up message to Wintershard. I was almost considering putting all the circle stuff at the end of my posts so that people would actually read the stuff they would be interested in, but that would be compromising on an issue I'm not ready to compromise on. People keep telling us to shut up and that we've made our point. However, in my never reserved opinion, we're still debating it. It's like stopping a basketball game after the third quarter because you already know who won. Not only can we not know who will win, we don't even know the score in a debate like this (nor should we keep score). I will now take this opportunity to say what I think the main points of this argument are: - Misty says we have ripple-like magical waves emanating from two centers: Urtho's tower (Dorisha Plains) and Ma'ar's castle (Lake Evendim). She says that the areas most severely impacted by these waves (i.e. where they combine to create the most devastation) is confined to two points somewhere in between these two centers, and paints a mental picture of two interlocked circles to demonstrate. - I (and some others), say that Misty's math, physics, and geometry are off, and that the areas where these waves will combine in such a manner are quite a bit more than two points (I claim it's a bunch of hyperbolas, and nobody has tried to gainsay me on that, yet), because we must take into account that these waves are forever expanding outward, and that there is more than one "ripple." - Some people just take Misty on faith. - Some people think that light difraction will explain why Misty's explanation works -- it doesn't. As Spencer said, light works as both a wave and a particle, and light diffraction is an example of the particle properties of light, so doesn't help explain our *wave* problem. - Some people think that drawing two circles will explain why Misty's works -- that doesn't take into account the fact/theory that the waves are expanding. Also, if you make the circles big enough, you can get four or more points of intersection. Why the waves are expanding: - It's a physical property of waves. Think of the circular crest of the wave as energy, or a bunch of people bunched together along the perimeter of a circle. The tendency of these people will be to push into each other, and in so doing, the forces to the sides will cancel out, and everyone will move outwards, forming the pattern of an expanding circle. As they go outwards, they will be further spread apart, meaning it will be harder to push on each other, meaning the crest will have less and less energy. Does that make sense? Why the waves are contracting: - Spencer said: >>However, we cannot duplicate the magical waves in Storm Rising since Misty has them rushing in toward the center (ie the location of the pebble contacting the water, your hand on the slinky, the source of the light in slit diffraction).<< - IIRC, when everything first went KABOOM way back when, the waves went outwards and then warped through time, so maybe when they arrived "now," they were reversing direction and going inwards? - If they're contracting, the patterns of intersection are still the same as if they were expanding, so IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Why the waves aren't staying still: - it's wish fulfillment - it's against the laws of physics - it's against the tendencies of energy - explosion implies movement - explosions aren't stagnant - it's counterintuitive - do I need to keep going? Some finer points of nuance: - the sets of waves aren't necessarily of the same power. There were more goodies to explode at Urtho's place, and that's why the Dorisha Plains are bigger. - This wouldn't effect the speed of either set of waves, but rather the strength. The speed is only dependent on how quickly magic moves through air/ground/water. Drop a cannonball or a pebble, the ripples spread at the same speed, it's just the size of the crests that's different - If it doesn't effect the speed, than it won't effect the interference pattern at all, it will only decrease the amount of energy present in each of these confluences - the hyperbolas which describe these intersection points are highly idealized, and are based upon a number of factors: - The distance between the two nodes...er, centers - The speed of the magic through air/ground/water. The landscape traversed will probably distort these lines a bit. - The attracting/repelling force of existing magic will also distort the lines a bit. (You can't discern the ripple effect as well if you dump your rock into moving water) However, given how strong Misty seems to imply these waves are, these are probably negligible (like a tsunami and sand-castles along the beach). This brings up another question. We can't pretend these waves were two-dimensional, that only works on paper and because we can't see what's happening underneath the surface of the water. So, there must also be confluence locations under water, in granite, in midair. To see what it would look like, take the picture I drew earlier, and put an axis from A to B. Now, rotate the picture. You get many hyperbolic shells! So, if a bird or fish gets caught in one of these, it should be affected, right? Not to mention a gryphon or a whale (does Misty have whales?) or how about a boat. Also, what if one of them hit that heart stone that was holding Tashir's Kingdom together, or any other faultline? Major Earthquakes! Is this just a matter of Misty not thinking things all the way through? If you want to write Science Fiction, you have to understand Science, or else you'll be unbelievable and torn apart. That's what one of my English teachers told me, and this looks like a case in point. Anyway, if there are more bones of contention out there, please don't hesitate to unbury them and tell me. Whew! That turned out to be longer than I expected, but I hope it was understandable to all you who profess to not like the formulatic aspect which is the crux of the matter I just outlined in (I hope!) layman's terms. love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |I was a brassbound Idealist in those days. of Procrastination and Holy |If you are an Idealist it does not matter Custodian of the B-Day List. |what you do or what goes on around you Confused? Write me! |because it isn't real anyway. dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA -- Robert Penn Warren ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 917 *********************************