MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 959 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) trust/goddess/turtles by Becky Anne Christensen 2) Recruitment drive by "Hth." 3) Braid from thy beloved Listmistress: by Melanie Dymond Harper 4) MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 956 by ladyravn-+AT+-ADF.COM 5) vanyel by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 6) MINIBRAID: Companions Eavesdropping/irate fluff/etc. by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) 7) Re: vanyel by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 8) Re: Recruitment drive by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 9) Re: Talia/rolan bond by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 10) Re: Van. by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 11) Re: MOC/MO bond by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 12) Temprorary or permanent MageWar solution by Mat the Cat in Green 13) Re: MINIBRAID: Companions Eavesdropping/irate fluff/etc. by Renee Mic Markowicz 14) Reply to: Re: (a little Vanyel) by Rozanna McNeer 15) Re: MINIBRAID: Companions Eavesdropping/irate fluff/etc. by DawnRain 16) Vanyel/Amber & Marigold by Shannon 17) Braid:Recruitment drive/LOPW/Ghatti/E&D married?/roomie by hallett-+AT+-sprynet.com 18) Final Strike/villains/genderless by "Hth." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:29:02 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: trust/goddess/turtles Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 singer-+AT+-iglobal.net wrote: > Does anyone else think they would have trouble with this; their Companion > always being right there, knowing everything? And I mean knowing in > general, not just about-you know. I would have a very hard time adjusting > to someone always being in my thoughts; knowing what I was doing and, > presumably, what I was thinking and feeling most if not all of the time. > But I don't think anyone has addresed that it could also be > really frightening to some people, and I just thought I might remind us of > that. > I agree wholeheartedly, I'm one of those people who have a very hard time trusting people. We were actually talking about this today in Sunday School, and wondering if there was any way we could ever completely trust a person, what do you guys think? I believe almost everybody has at least one secret that they won't tell anyone, I know I don't know anyone I trust enough to tell everything, just about the only people I do trust are my parents, and I don't even trust them *completely*. Heck, I can't even trust God completely, which as I look at it, is pure stupidity, because he knows everything anyways :) (just a note, I don't mean to offend anyone, I know religion is a touchy subject, I'm just giving a personal example) To me, that idea would be *very* scary. It makes me wonder how many of the newly chosen Heralds are scared by the thought of it. Especially the ones like Skif, and whos his name, the abused one, the ones that haven't really known a form of love or trust, even Talia. I wonder how they could adjust so quickly, Misty never mentions anything about it. Just seems odd. -------------------------- On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Eleonora Scoseria wrote: > As to She referring to Kal'enel (or however you spell it :)), I don't think > so. At least I cannot come up with any evidence of Van's worshipping > Kal'enel. Even though he did train with the Hawkbrothers I don't remember > their discussing religion, and do not recall Van worshipping a concrete > deity. Well, if I recall correctly, he was made a wingsib, and therefore was bound to the goddess, and in Winds I think, I recall him saying how he is still serving the Goddess and Valdemar. Sorry no textevd, all my books are oacked away in a box, I'm redecorating. :) About the scene with Jaysen though, now that I see the whole passage, I realize it does refer to the Shadow-Lover, and not the Goddess. -------------------- > >Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) > > You bet I'm confused. Could you explain?? Association for the Preservation of Shiny Wax Turtles :) I usually gice them as tithes or special blessings to those I deem worthy, or whenever we have a tithing fest. :) Each one has his own personality, and to recieve one, you have to prove your worthiness, and pass the test *lol* :) Lady Becky(LIG), Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) Mailing List Homepage http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html beckyanne-+AT+-iforge.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 05:49:27 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Recruitment drive Message-ID: <18NOV96.06290390.0030.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Okay, ladies and gentlemen, two events are occuring simultaneously. First, a large number of listsibs are being appointed dieties, avatars, clergy, etcetera, allowing them to append cool things to their sigs. Second, Vanyel is once more a primary topic of conversation...which means his honor is probably soon to be threatened once more Shall we stand still for this onslaught? Or shall we rise to his defense, and append cool things to our sigs? Exactly. Therefore, my proposal. I would like formally invite Vanyel's supporters into an undertaking of great righteousness and worth -- namely, the Order of Amber and Marigold. Now, for those of you who wrinkled your nose in puzzlement (you did! I saw it!), I will explain the name. Amber is Vanyel's primary focus-stone, and stand as a symbol of his professional excellence and mastery of magecraft and statesmanship. Marigold is, as we all now remember, the secret ingredient in the special salve which Tylendel thought made Vanyel smell -- aaahh, good enough to eat, and which was also involved in the first meeting of Vanyel and Stef, and Vanyel's first act of kindness toward him. Therefore, we can consider it to stand for Vanyel's personal life. Who can join? Nearly anyone. You must simply believe that Vanyel was a character of exceeding coolness. The only people barred from participating are those who believe he was a whining, self-absorbed bitch, or who publicly advocate that he should have been dumped by his lifebonded. Other than those miscreants , everyone is welcome. What do you get? First, a nifty title. Members of the Order are allowed to bill themselves as Knights or Dames, to taste -- titles will be rationed out based on personal preference, not gender -- of the OAM. Second, a sacred duty to protect Vanyel against all unjust accusations. This can mean posting a response to on-list accusations, but *does not have to.* You can talk to a 3-D friend about what preposterous thing was said on your mailing list today. You can send a brief private e-mail to your comrades in arms saying, "Well done!" or "Rock on!" or whatever is in your idiom. You can even thumb your nose at your computer screen, so long as it is a heartfelt gesture (and so long as your computer isn't the sensitive type who will misunderstand and erase your hard drive in retribution). You are permitted to think Vanyel is flawed, but if you desire to express such an opinion, you must be willing and able to defend your claims against all comers, using, of course, appropriate textual evidence. Knights who slander Vanyel and are then unwilling or unable to provide at leat token evidence for their position will be soundly disapproved of. This *is not* intended as an attack on anyone (I can just see myself getting in trouble for this). It's just that every time I've seen a need to defend Vanyel, I've gotten tons of private e-mail, as well as mentions on public space, saying something to the effect of, "I really felt like that needed to be said, and I'm so glad you did." There are obviously many people out there who want to pay their respects to good Mr. Ashkevron, and this is a low-stress, kinda fun way for them to do so. I know a lot of people respond to this character on a very personal, emotional basis, and I thought some of them might see this as a nice chance to express how close they feel to Vanyel. In all my dealings with the speculative fiction world, I've never run across one character that so many people felt connected to or inspired by in some way. Anyone who feels inspired to flame me for this may do so privately, and I will, for once in my misspent life, just listen patiently without arguing. I've done as much debating as I want to for a while on this subject, and I'm ready to just stand my ground and say, There are those of us who feel like our lives are a little better because he was briefly in them, and this is our way of saying thanks. *So,* all those of you who have been so supportive of My Cause in the past, *please* support the Order of Amber and Marigold, or I'm going to look pretty silly, being the only one out here spouting all this mushy stuff. To our banner! Ah, and one off-topic question. Are there Xena fans out there who saw the end of the Return of Callisto episode this week? Because *just* as Gabrielle was saying "Does this mean you'll be stuck in this body forever?" the TV station *screwed up* and blacked out the last two minutes of the episode. So, a big hearty thank you to the fine city of Ottumwa, Iowa. *And what the hell happened then???* Forgive, but I'm very agitated about this, and I don't know where else to turn. Callisto is a recurring villain near and dear to Heather's heart, and to lose the end of a very major episode with *Callisto* in it, and not even know if or how Xena got out of Callisto's body this week -- well, I'm just plain agitated. So if anyone saw the episode, can you brief me? Private e-mail is fine. I just...need to know if Callisto will be in next week's episode, too. That's all I ask.... HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:54:43 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: Braid from thy beloved Listmistress: Message-ID: <199611181154.LAA28423-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> My, you _have_ all been vocal over the weekend, haven't you? Might be time to consider turning the fluff down just a little bit.... ---- Chain letters ---- Don't do it. See http://www.herald.co.uk/local_info/rules_thumb.html . ---- Search engine for archives ---- There will be one, at some point; I've got some software here which probably just needs installing, but I must make sure it's not going to bring Vanyel to his knees first. Fret not, it'll happen in the not _too_ distant future. ---- Archives in general ---- ... haven't moved, there's just a nicer interface. http://www.herald.co.uk/pub/lists/lackey-archives/ (still available by FTP, too) ---- how to unsubscribe ---- Okay, okay, I'll post the FAQ again (in a separate mail after this one) ---- Shadowlover and gender ---- I have a feeling that we see the Shadowlover referred to as female when Jaysen dies; anyone confirm this? (Ah. someone just did. This is what happens when you read eight -- I think it was eight! -- digests in a row ...) ---- end braid Mel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 07:12:58 -0500 From: ladyravn-+AT+-ADF.COM To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 956 Message-ID: >Well, that IS a theory I can live with, and I agree it does add tyo >Yfandes's tragic profile. Something I cannot remember. Was Leareth also >Ma'ar? And the mage at the end of MPawn? ME>Ele ME>Priestess of Karma Leareth was Ma'ar, Or at least in FalconBanes's memeories there were many of the time that he had been called Leareth. I am unsure as to whether or not the mage at the end of MPawn is related to Ma'ar, he may have just been your run-of-the-mill-power-hungry-blood-path mage. Of course, it'b been a couple of weeks to a couple of months since I read the relevant books, so I could be wrong, I'll check it out later. LadyRavn LadyRavn-+AT+-adf.com "Your bags will be downstairs, You will join them..... soon" DisneyWorld's Twilight Zone's Tower of Terror Attraction ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 09:09:54 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: vanyel Message-ID: <199611181421.JAA20333-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Ladyravn wrote: >>Well, that IS a theory I can live with, and I agree it does add tyo >>Yfandes's tragic profile. Something I cannot remember. Was Leareth also >>Ma'ar? And the mage at the end of MPawn? >ME>Ele >ME>Priestess of Karma > > >Leareth was Ma'ar, Or at least in FalconBanes's memeories there were >many of the time that he had been called Leareth. I am unsure as to >whether or not the mage at the end of MPawn is related to Ma'ar, he may >have just been your run-of-the-mill-power-hungry-blood-path mage. > >Of course, it'b been a couple of weeks to a couple of months since I >read the relevant books, so I could be wrong, I'll check it out later. Depends on your faith in Ma'ar's body hopping skills. I, personally, subscribe to the Ma'ar was not Krebain school, but there are some on this list (as I discovered when I first join) who believe he could have been testing Valdemar and Vanyel out through Krebain, and then jumped to Leareth with a desire for vengeance against Vanyel. Speaking of whom... Heather, I, Deniz, High Priestess of Procrastination and Holy Custodian of the Birthday List, do hereby entreaty (Mat willing) to become a Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold. I offer up my previous post and most of the rest of this one in my defence. (Deniz, for once, politely bowing out of the way for woodlark) Hi, everybody. Err... where was i? Ah. Heather, i, woodlark, Acolyte in Music and Song and Proud Holder of a Solo and uhh... that's about it, petition, an' Lady Sophie allows, to become a knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold. I was wondering, you seem to also be the drummer, may i be the fifer? (Okay, deniz would like a chance to defend Vanyel.) I said: >In order to avoid the future he[VAN] saw, he would basically have to change a >fundamental tenet of his philosophy and personality -- his self-sacrificing >devotion to the People of Valdemar. causing Danya to reply thusly: >>>I didn't get this from the books at all. Especially when Van arrives at the appointed location and realizes there are four mages instead of one. Something had obviously happened to change his vision already, so he had every reason to believe that the sequence would not play out in the pattern he had Seen. Call it the George Bailey School of Foresight, but Van had obviously been seeing an alternate future to the one he walked in to. The proof that he could change what he had seen was right there.<<< I think what I meant was that all of Van's Foresight Dreams (which were not all the same) dealt basically with him holding off the army in the Pass and being killed by Leareth, involving variable numbers of Wizards and degrees of pain. Also, Van isn't the only major player and shaper in this vision. I mean, sure, *he* can change it a bit, but so can Leareth. Also, what I was saying was that if Vanyel wanted to avoid the encounter all together (which he seemed wont to do in MPawn, when he was still confused and in pain), *then* he would have to change himself. Also, I don't think that when he saw there were four mages instead of whatever his most recent vision had said (sorry, don't have the books) he was saying to himself, "Ha! I changed it! I may survive it yet." More likely, he was saying, "This puts a new twist on things. Well, I'll have to dispose of them and then deal with Leareth." (wording mine, I'm not trying to hard to make it in his wording, I *do* have classes this morning) Danya, how are you getting that Van was the reason Leareth came to Valdemar? I thought he had been planning on getting Valdemar for a while. Remember how he had been taking out every child whose potential matured to Mage Gift on the instant? When the Gate energy recoiled through Van, that was his last failed attempt, remember? He's been after Valdemar's ass for some time, not just Vanyel's (not *that* way! You people... Actually, come to think of it, yes, that way, too. That's just... not what I was thinking of). The reason he started taking all of Van's friends out was because he viewed Van as his greatest challenge -- defeat Van, Valdemar will be putty in your hands. If Van *had* changed so much that he wouldn't have been the sort of person to go to the border and stop Leareth, it would have been that much easier for Leareth to get Valdemar. If Van had had the temerity to come back to Valdemar after not becoming a Herald (this isn't an attack on Van, but on an inferior, less mature version which he grew out of), Leareth would probably have tried to take him out in some other fashion. But I'm glad that Van is the way he is. Everyone knows there's a price to pay at the end, and Van knew what his price would be, and when the time came, he didn't grumble about not having enough cash, but tried his damndest to give it his best shot. OK. I've rambled on so much I'm mixed really up and don't type what I'm thinking any more. Err... that's think what I understand? love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 12:27 EST From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: MINIBRAID: Companions Eavesdropping/irate fluff/etc. Message-ID: >Tresta wrote: >Yes, I remember Kris and Talia . I guess the Heralds *do* get >used to the Companions being such a part of their minds and their lives >that they don't think much about it. Talia and Rolan are the only Herald >and Companion I remember reading about with a bond too strong to block, but >as someone else pointed out, even an "ordinary" Companion can only retreat >so far. They must have an *idea* of what's going on. I remember Van asking 'fandes before arriving at the inn in MPromise (where she was to meet the Companion with the beautiful...nose) to shield him from her sport, since the last time SHE had forgotten. So, for ordinary Companions, apparently it seems to be an ability on the Companion's part. Van knew well enough how to shield, but apparently in those instances he depended on Yfandes. I agree with Tresta that Talia's case however, is different since her bond with Rolan was on such a deep level that nothing could completely block it, am attribute that came in useful when Ancar had her immprisoned. I also agree on it being the only case I can think of. I *do* wonder. Was this unique to Talia and Rolan, or was it the norm for MOC and MO? I can't come up with any text evd. Does anybody? Tresta continued: >But I don't think anyone has addresed that it could also be really frightening to some >people, and I just thought I might remind us of that. Would it really? I wonder... Rationally, it does seem frightening, but according to what we are told about the Herald-Companion bond, I don't think it would really be. Just a thought. Renee wrote: >Thank you all for allowing me to rant. I seriously needed to get this off >my chest so I could concentrate on my studying. BTW, what's your >collective take on all of this? I think that I'm right in being a bit >ticked off about this, but I could be completely out of line. For what it's worth, I DO agree with you. Your roommate doesn't sound too nice (to put it mildly) and the correct thing to do would have been telling you. Also, why should YOU move out? All I can do is send you a big HUG, and a virtual chocolate eclair, that will sweeten the experience without adding a single calory (or if you feel shortchanged about it and miss the calories, as part of the chocolate, then it will produce the appropriate amunt of calories :)). Does it help? Good luck. My grandmother would have said "No hay mal que por bien no venga". Ouch! I guess I now have to translate that into English. Can you help me Cennydd, PLEASE? The literal translation would be sort of "no evil comes without a good end". That's not really it! Let's wait for the Mage's rendition. It is similar in a sense to "Every cloud has a silver lining" but I feel the meaning is different. >Herald Michal, wrote: >> I *really* don't want to get into the Van's Bardic Gift Discussion >> (TM) either, but about Savil testing for it: is it really just >> something you can check for, like any other talent? If it is, why >> couldn't she just have done a quick scan when he first arrived in >> Haven instead of having to have him sing for the Bardic class? > Star replied: >Having him sing for the class was more a way to show him what the >necessary gift was, and that he didn't have it, as gently as possible >than proving to everyone else that he didn't have it, IMO. I think also >that hearing the person in question make music is also the easiest way >to check, it just kind of reaches out and hits you like Medren's did Van >the first time Medren played for him. Also, he had been checked before >by that Bard that rode out to Forst Reach, they were just >double-checking for Savil since Van was so set on it. >If you want text ev, I will go look... I just don't have the ENERGY >right now! Maybe Savil did not want to subject Van to what might be considered "invasive" testing in order to prove or disprove something that could easily be done by his performing. Since Van was not familiar with gifts, having his aunt enter his mind, at the level necessary to test for gifts, would probably not have been too welcome. Also, he would anyway be training at Bardic as part of his History (was it?) training, and since Van loved music it made sense anyway. Nevertheless, I believe Heral Michal *does* raise an interesting question. BTW, hope you get well soon, Herald! Kerry wrote: > Cennyd wrote: > > While we are in the realm of quotations, there is a poem I specially like > > but I cannot remember who wrote it. Can somebody help me on that please? I > > may be misquoting, but as fas as I remember, it goes... and then proceeded to give all the appropriate info I needed. Thanks Kerry! Actually you got the attribution wrong. It was not Cennydd but one of his priestesses (me). I did not, however, see the poem in your sig., since I distinctly remember falling in love with that poem several years ago, when I also fell in love with the man I thought would be my lifemate. I was wrong in that respect :), but not about the poem. I am still in love with it. Thank you so much for solving the mistery for me :) That's all for now, have to go. Love, Ele Priestess of Karma ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:23:17 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: vanyel Message-ID: <199611181623.IAA17054-+AT+-latimes.com> At 02:50 PM 11/18/96 GMT, dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA wrote: >Danya, how are you getting that Van was the reason Leareth came to Valdemar? That was partially in LHM and partially in stuff from Falconsbane, but it's been a year since I sat down and read the entire series (from BG to S whatever, front to back in chronological order). I can no longer remember exactly which books the relevent quotes came from. It is quite plain that after Van died the Falconsbane-to-be didn't come back and invade Valdemar (what he was after was no longer there), and he wasn't invading Valdemar before Van became a Herald-Mage. There's textevd in there somewhere that this wasn't just lucky timing on Valdemar's part; I just can't remember which book I read it in. >I thought he had been planning on getting Valdemar for a while. Remember how >he had been taking out every child whose potential matured to Mage Gift on the >instant? Okay, as I say it's been a while since I read the books, but follow me for a moment. Blood-path mage, right? Is there some extra kick that he gets from Mage potential and/or mages that he doesn't get from ordinary folks? Hmm, the textevd for a super-Mage devouring power from other mages is in SB, unfortunately. Remember, Falconsbane is preying on Taleydras-types not on the Shin'a'in. > When the Gate energy recoiled through Van, that was his last failed >attempt, remember? He's been after Valdemar's ass for some time, not just >Vanyel's (not *that* way! You people... Actually, come to think of it, yes, >that way, too. That's just... not what I was thinking of). The reason he >started taking all of Van's friends out was because he viewed Van as his >greatest challenge -- defeat Van, Valdemar will be putty in your hands. I think he started taking out Van's friends because he knew he was getting ready to go up against Van and (1) he wanted to make Van come to him, (2) psychologically put his prey off balance, and (3) he needed the "fuel." >If >Van *had* changed so much that he wouldn't have been the sort of person to go >to the border and stop Leareth, it would have been that much easier for >Leareth to get Valdemar. See, that's the problem I have with your argument. I don't think Leareth was after Valdemar per se. I think he was after the mage power. That's why when Valdemar no longer has any practicing mages he leaves it alone and goes after people who DO have practicing mages. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:41:01 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Recruitment drive Message-ID: <199611181641.IAA17387-+AT+-latimes.com> HTH wrote: >I would like formally invite Vanyel's supporters into an undertaking of >great righteousness and worth -- namely, the Order of Amber and >Marigold. > >Who can join? Nearly anyone. You must simply believe that Vanyel was a >character of exceeding coolness. The only people barred from >participating are those who believe he was a whining, self-absorbed >bitch, or who publicly advocate that he should have been dumped by his >lifebonded. Other than those miscreants , everyone is welcome. Lest there be a misunderstanding, I just want to make it clear that I am in no way intending to attack _Vanyel_ in my recent posts. He is definitely one of my all-time favorite characters. That's why it irked me so much to see his life go the way it did for the sake of a plot outline that was created long before his story was ever written. Characters can only do what their creators allow them to do. The problem I have is with Misty's authorial decision on this topic, not with Vanyel. Danya (Herald-Mage Hedge Wizard, about-to-be Herald-Mage Journeyman if my eleven-week-old son ever gives me enough down time to finish the paper on the Constitution and send it to Judith!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:44:17 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia/rolan bond Message-ID: <23DDF1892-+AT+-future.judson.edu> About Talia and Rolan's bond being unique: I belive it was very unique, and that not normal, even for MO and MOC. Remember the time when Skif, Keren, and Talia did their own little test with Rolan to see just how strong their bond was, and at the end of it Talia told them that she was shielded the whole time--but Rolan was still able to see through her eyes and vice versa? They were shocked when Talia told them that, and Keren told her to make sure Kyril knew (or maybe it was the entire Circle?), because it was so unusual. So I came to the conclusion that that meant that it was unusual, bordering on bizzare. Keren was known for having a very strong bond with Dantris, and after the test she admitted that even she and Dantris couldn't have done what Talia and Rolan did. Of course, this leads me to wonder....did Talia's Gift of Empathy have anything to do with her ability to see out of Rolan's eyes? She *did* see everything in images (except when Ylsa was killed but let's not rehash that), so maybe that helped. And her Gift was very strong..wait...WAS her Gift exceptionally strong, or was it that it was just strange that a Herald has Empathy that made the situation surrounding her Gift so unique? I can't remember...was it both? Well, I certainly feel embarassed, forgetting something so fundamental. Ok, I'm leaving before I dig myself a hole I can't get out of. :Too late.: WTTW, Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:51:56 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van. Message-ID: <25E3A3D2B-+AT+-future.judson.edu> About the Ma'ar/Leareth/Falconsbane thing. Had Misty planned the whole I'm-dead-I-think-I'll-go-steal-another-body-now-and-continue-my- reign-of-terror plot at the time she wrote LHM? I find it interesting that there is the thought that if Leareth died, he'd just go to another body. Did Misty plan all this out then, or did she just see an interesting plotline in the Winds and just say that yes, they are all the same person? I would be very impressed if she planned out all those novels in advance, and it wasn't just a case of her taking advantage of a very serendipitous situation when she made up the character of Falconsbane. So, if Leareth had had a mountain fall on him and she had written the story so that Van survived, I don't think that we would now have the plot line of i'm-dead-i-think..... I think she just thought of that when she was writing Winds, as sort of an "Oh, I have an idea!!" Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:57:46 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MOC/MO bond Message-ID: <9611181657.AA03411-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> Ele wondered: [unblockably deep Talia/rolan bond] > I *do* wonder. Was this unique to Talia and Rolan, or was it the norm for > MOC and MO? I can't come up with any text evd. Does anybody? Nothing direct, but if it *was* normal, I'd have expected someone to mention it somewhere along the line - especially when they tested it. -- _|_ Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) / | Hemel Hempstead, UK jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \_|_ jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) \__/ www.selune.demon.co.uk (soon) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:15:16 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list , Subject: Temprorary or permanent MageWar solution Message-ID: Ok all, here's the deal about the MageWars. The White Coconut list is permanently down, due to the dissapearance of it's owner, McCaffrey's White Dragon (who also dissapeared from the Misty list). We are currently looking for a new home for the MageWar. Until that time, I am willing to do mass mailings of all MageWar messages. This is how it will work. To send a message to the MageWar, you must send the message to me, at mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu . The subject line ***MUST*** contain the string "[magewar]", WITH the brackets. I will then mail it out to the rest of the list. If [magewar] is NOT in the subject line, it will not go out. Okay, I sent this message out to both the Misty list, and to the list of people I currently have as MageWar List memebers. This list was gleaned from a subscriber list I got from WCCNUT a few weeks ago (which, I luckily saved). Anyone who got double messages, it means that you are on both the Misty List, and on my current MageWar list. If you wish to be removed from the latter list, private mail me. Likewise, if you did not get doubles, and only got from the Misty list, and want to be in the magewar, mail me, and I'll add you. If you just want to join in, mail me. If you want off, mail me. Get the picture. If all else fails, mail me. mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu Aunti Mel, sorry about the way off-topic post. Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Don't go down the cargo bay Adept, God of Procrastination | when there's no ship in dock. Heathen #???, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | You just might hear marracas clack mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | and get a nasty shock." http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | Carmen Miranda's Ghost - Leslie Fish ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:24:35 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MINIBRAID: Companions Eavesdropping/irate fluff/etc. Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Eleonora Scoseria wrote: > I *do* wonder. Was this unique to Talia and Rolan, or was it the norm for > MOC and MO? I can't come up with any text evd. Does anybody? I don't think that such a tight bond was normal for MOC/MO. Remember Shavri and Taver? That may have been a special case, but I remember in MPrice when Vanyel wants to go chase after Learath and the Council won't let him go. The Companions get involved and "push" their Chosen to allow him to leave. They say something like, "Shavri was the last to relent as her bond to her Companion was the weakest." Or something to that effect. And concerning my irate fluff: > you. Also, why should YOU move out? All I can do is send you a big HUG, and > a virtual chocolate eclair, that will sweeten the experience without adding > a single calory (or if you feel shortchanged about it and miss the calories, > as part of the chocolate, then it will produce the appropriate amunt of > calories :)). Thank you for the HUG. It was greatly needed and very much appreciated. I made it clear to everyone involved that I was staying in my own room and the RA backed me. As for the no-calorie eclair, I'm suddenly reminded of Silver Veil's pastries - the eclair had the same effect on me as the pastry did on Leyuet (sp?). What else can I say but, YUMMMM....! :) Very relaxing. I'm feeling much better after having a night to sleep on it. Actually, my roommate didn't come back in the room until much later that night (she kept sending other people to get whatever she needed). When she talked to me this morning she seemed very tentative. I think that she realized that she handled this whole thing badly (by my reaction), and I think she's scared of me now (or of what I might do <--evil chuckle). :) <*G*> Renee flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I'm trying to find a polite way of saying 'drop University of Delaware |dead' and not having much luck." Pre-Veterinary student | -Vlad Taltos **High Priestess of |"Don't bother being polite. I died before the Procrastination** |Interregnum. Will you take the job?" Confused? Just Ask! | -Sethra Lavode http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:43:26 -0500 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: Re: (a little Vanyel) Message-ID: <199611181343_MC1-C13-C2E8-+AT+-compuserve.com> > eavesdrop. But really, could you do it with your Companion watching? > Ewwwww! No Way!! What about that scene in the beginning of AFall where Kris is thinking about what wonderful riders they are -- somthing about they could even 'possible make love a-saddle' - and some other stuff about how ~he~ wasn't that adventurous, but had heard some stories from fellow Heralds.... help? Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:59:28 -0700 From: DawnRain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MINIBRAID: Companions Eavesdropping/irate fluff/etc. Message-ID: <3290C020.7F9E-+AT+-geocities.com> Eleonora Scoseria wrote: > Maybe Savil did not want to subject Van to what might be considered > "invasive" testing in order to prove or disprove something that could easily > be done by his performing. Since Van was not familiar with gifts, having > his aunt enter his mind, at the level necessary to test for gifts, would > probably not have been too welcome. > Also, he would anyway be training at Bardic as part of his History (was it?) > training, and since Van loved music it made sense anyway. > Nevertheless, I believe Heral Michal *does* raise an interesting question. > BTW, hope you get well soon, Herald! Ah, but Savil had tested him before, the first time in Van's memory that she'd gone to the keep. Savil asked Treesa if he had evedenced any gifts, and when Treesa gave a slightly featherbrained answer, she tested him herself and found "potential, but nothing active." This is from the bit in Magic's Pawn where Van first learns he's going to be packed off to Haven to live with his aunt and is remembering her visit. MorningStar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:03:07 -0800 From: Shannon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vanyel/Amber & Marigold Message-ID: <3291074B.777B-+AT+-ix.netcom.com> I've been following this debate about Vanyel's death with interest, and here's my take on the situation. Van *had* to die. When Stefen goes to the Forest to kill himself, he encounters Van's spirit, who tells him to try to change the perception of the people that Herald Mages were better than Heralds. If Van hadn't died, that couldn't have been accomplished because there he'd be, the hero who took out the army of Leareth all on his own, and that perception would have just gotten stronger. That whole theme was pretty constant throughout the book, everyone thinking Heralds were less than Herald Mages. I hope that made sense. :) On that note, I, having no other titles and by way of my devotion to one Vanyel Ashkevron, request the status of a Dame in the Order of Amber and Marigold. Vanyel brought me to the world of Velgarth, with much love and many tears, and I wouldn't be the same without him. Shannon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:59:00 -0800 From: hallett-+AT+-sprynet.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid:Recruitment drive/LOPW/Ghatti/E&D married?/roomie Message-ID: <199611182059.MAA23222-+AT+-m4.sprynet.com> HTH Wrote: >*So,* all those of you who have been so supportive of My Cause in the >past, *please* support the Order of Amber and Marigold, or I'm going to >look pretty silly, being the only one out here spouting all this mushy >stuff. To our banner! Oh, I doubt you and I will be the only ones! What a wonderful idea!!! Count me in! Ele wrote: >Also, I have been advised to apply to the ladies of the Pink Wand, my main >claim being that I'm a straight female who happened to fall in love with >Vanyel . >What do you say, ladies? Will I be accepted? Ditto! I most defintely fell in love with Vanyel. *swoon* I've also had big time crushes on several men in my past. So what do you think? Can I play too please? Marsha asked: >>Has anyone read any of Gayle Greeno's Ghatti's books? I know Sylver Dove has. She's recommended them to me a couple times. What do all of you out there think? Is are they worth the read? Tersta asked if Elspeth and Darkwind were married. IMHO I'd say yes. I had always viewed their exchanging of ring and feather as a private wedding ceremony. I vaguely recall a passage saying that no one else would know what Elspeth's feathers represented, a token of marriage. Anyone else remember that? I very well may be mistaken. I think my brain is on the fritz today and I'm feeling too lazy to go check right now, especially since our books are all in boxes at the moment. Now where did I pit that auxilary brain? I know it's around here somewhere... To Renee in Roommate pergatory: I agree with you, for what it's worth. You're roomie really should have had the common courtasy to came to you and and ASKED you how you would feel about moving out to make room for boyfriend. FLUFF ZONE AHEAD: A cookie and a HB copy of The World's Best Loved Mispelled Words in the language of your choice to the first person to recognize this little quote: "Eyeballs! Eyeballs! Eyeballs! Eyeballs everywhere! Eyeballs! Eyeballs! Eyeballs Floating through the air" Hugs and miscellaneous whatnot, Arielle, Goddess of Mispelling, Mistress of Typo;s Lady of The Order of Amber and Marigold! :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:18:05 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Final Strike/villains/genderless Message-ID: <18NOV96.16525595.0231.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> First of all, this is why I don't play mages. I'm not good at this kind of thing. And when magical tactics are called for in my writing, I bribe my roommate into working out the glitches for me. But here's my thought. All of Danya's arguments are based, as far as I can make out, on the assumption that Vanyel had the power to seal off the pass (which, yes, is a pretty simple thing to think up), thereby giving himself time to replenish while Leareth ground his teeth. I'm not sure how we know that he did. As Kerry made clear (you the man, Kerry!), collapsing solid cliff walls is not exactly falling off a log. And maybe the Vanyel-who-could-level-Haven could have done it -- though I always thought that quote was as much Vanyel's legend talking as it was an accurate summation of his powers. But he'd been recently injured, and he'd been throwing around a lot of power. I can't imagine that he was at peak capabilities. The very nature of Final Strike, as I understand it from LHM and CotN, is that it takes very little power to activate. It's what you do when you've tried everything else, *and exhausted yourself,* and you don't want to die by yourself. So then, it only makes sense that the spell is one a dying mage can trigger -- i.e. not that hard. So just because he had the power remaining to call down a Final Strike does not necessarily mean that he had the power to collapse a mountain. I don't think it was impossible to stop Leareth. I do think it was probably outside of Vanyel's capabilities at that moment -- and he really didn't have any time to recuperate, and he had no other mages to call on. While I sympathize with the feeling that Stef got royally $%!#&! in that incarnation, I don't think Vanyel had as many options as you think he should have had. There's a difference between having the perfect strategy and having the resources to pull it off in the time you're given. As for the foresight issue, I'm going to adopt Cen's theory here. There are some futures so pivotal that they cannot be avoided. These are rare, and so the people who assured Vanyel he had every opportunity to change that future certainly believed what they said. And yes, his future did change somewhat from the one pictured in his dream. But it's jumping the gun to say that because the future could change slightly, of necessity the confrontation and Vanyel's death could have been completely averted. If his death was one of those...lodgepole events, then all the warning in the world would not necessarily avert the workings of Fate. Kerry, you'll pay. What have you stuck me with? I'm supposed to -- defend some kind of villain or...what, now? And it's supposed to be enlightening, too, I take it. Dammit. Well, I'll make a token attempt. I think Burning Water could have been interesting as a guardian-diety of his people, earnestly trying to reassemble his flock and have his revenge on their attackers. Unfortunately, you never see anything but the revenge aspect. I think it would have been neat to see this ruthless diety sending miracles to save starving Mexican villages or pushing little chicano children out of the way of gang crossfire or something -- something that showed that while he had all this anger and bitterness toward white people, *he could actually be kind to his own folk.* As it was, we saw all of the rage and none of the rest. She went with a pure war-god kind of archetype. I think it would have been cool to see a kind of sacred king, blessing his people with bounty and health while smiting their enemies. I don't think making only his priests rich and beautiful is quite the same thing. Not that Burning Water's personality as Misty depicted it was wrong or anything, it just seemed a bit...pat. The easy answer again -- well, he's the Bad God, so he isn't Nice. I can't really blame her for the sexually-experienced-female thing. I don't think she made that up. If it really was a fertility sacrifice, it makes perfect sense to sacrifice a woman we know is fertile, which will require a little bit of experience. (And remember, the original sacrifice wasn't single -- she was wossname's wife, Sherri). As for Hulda, I guess I didn't feel like she had the mystery about her that some of you do. She seemed to me like she was out for power, which is why she controlled the king. She also had that sexual response to Talia's torture, so she was obviously wantonly sadistic. Maybe I'm missing all kinds of layers to her personality, but those are the layers I saw, which are the same layers in most of her villains -- a lust for power combined with a sheer, unexplained personal proclivity toward causing pain. I don't *know.* I can't focus on Misty villains until I find out what happened to Callisto, dammit. What...what Kerry said...? I realize that the Shadow-Lover manifests as male or female, but I don't think either state of being is a fixed attribute for the Shadow-Lover. I think in essence it is a genderless spirit that shows itself in whatever form you'd like to see. (Everyone has a handful of "perfect person" images, including bisexual people. I doubt anyone, of whatever orientation, would greet the Shadow-Lover by saying, "Yeah, you're cute, but how come you're not more like xxxxx?") This is distinctly different from an entity like Kal'enel, who appears to be somehow essentially female. She will manifest with different nationalities, different ages, different physical appearances, whatever, but she is always female. She's got that whole Great Goddess thing going on, the idea being that she is the essence of being female, given form and voice. Can you imagine Kal'enel showing up as a man? I really can't. In that way, I consider her gendered, as opposed to the Shadow-Lover, who seems not to care much about which gender it appears as today. I am really on topic today. Let's put a stop to that, shall we? I want to rant for just a sec, speaking of villains. *America's Most Wanted* is back on the air. For those of you who aren't familiar, it's a TV show that highlights escaped criminals, the idea being that if you see one of them, you can recognize them and turn them in to the police. It's a pretty spiffy idea, and they've already apprehended something like over four hundred convicted criminals through that show. I have no problem with it, in fact used to watch it when I got the chance. But now there's a tenor to it that just makes me -- I don't know. Shaky. Sick. There are a whole bunch of commercials where the host explains that the show is back on the air because decent, normal people are tired of these animals running free, and we're going to lock them up where they belong. That's kind of the whole tone of the show. I flipped past it at the very beginning the other day, and there was this clip from a courtroom, with a woman reading a statement (I gathered her father had been murdered) to the man being tried -- whether this was before or after his sentencing I don't know. It was all pretty disturbing, but this is the line that sticks in my head -- direct quote: "You were not born, you were vomited up into the world of human beings." There is nothing right about this. I'm as opposed to crime as anybody (what's all this soft on crime nonsense? who really just doesn't mind crime all that much?), but these people are not animals, and they were born, and they are as human as I am. Stripping people of their humanity has never, in all of human history, never ever led to anything good. It only tears us all apart, infecting us with the abominable idea that we are somehow disassociated from the world around us -- from strangers, from neighbors, from the environment -- and that what does not happen directly to us does not affect us, because we are *different.* I'm going to cut this off, because I could be here grandstanding about this all day if I let myself. I only have three guiding principles of life that I consider sacred, and this violates -- well, all of them, really. I feel like I've been stabbed, and I can't get this out of my head. I don't have a problem with combining justice and entertainment. Hatred and entertainment, that bothers me. I realize there are going to be those of you out there who don't think I'm being reasonable here. Not everyone believes in the same three moral imperatives I do -- no one true way and all, and of course you do what you see fit. And I am taking this awfully seriously, it being just a TV show and all. But I feel like we're all infected and under the care of some medieval doctor who keeps leeching us, not realizing that while we might be able to survive the infection if we take proper care of ourselves, we won't be strong enough to do that if we're bleeding to death at the same time. Hmm, leaving you with a metaphor. Ponderables. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 959 *********************************