MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 961 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Yfandes/Van's death/Leareth/petition by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> 2) Brvaes Glares At ISP For Losing DNS For 38 Hours by Korendil 3) Companions / HTH-OAM / Van / BW by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 4) Re: Vanyel/Amber & Marigold by Korendil 5) RE: monogomy and fidelity by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 6) Re: Genderless by lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) 7) Re: Recruitment drive/Ponderables by Soljan-+AT+-aol.com 8) Re: Van by Korendil 9) MAXIBRAID: nearly everything :) by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:28:17 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Yfandes/Van's death/Leareth/petition Message-ID: Tresta asked me, "is it your opinion that Yfandes was an exception to your previous feeling that Fate did not play a part in Companion's Choice?" Hm. It's always a little frustrating when someone asks me to explain something and I'm not entirely certain what I meant... Let's try this: Somebody, sooner or later, was going to kill Leareth, and that person probably, but not necessarily, would have needed a Companion. So several (for the sake of redundancy) Companions would have been born who could partner one of the persons who might possibly end up in that role. Then they waited to see which candidate matured first, and when he did, the most appropriate Companion for his personality-- Gala--went and got him--Tylendel--(this is a bit farfetched, with no possible textevd that I can think of, just a pet theory) and while Tylendel got trained, his backup, Vanyel, moved into position to get slipped into the role if (when) things went wrong. There may have been other backups, too, we just don't know about them. So it's Fate, kind of, in the sense that it became necessary for Vanyel to become a Herald. And Vanyel had his Foresight dream *because* he was moving toward that particular death, not because all his possible futures led to his becoming a Herald and fighting Leareth. (I think redundancy and free will can pretty well account for all those unpartnered Companions.) I know there are loose ends in here somewhere, but the discussion is getting so complex I can't keep track anymore. Danya fumed about Van's mistakes--I have to agree with the one or two other people who pointed out that in the heat of the moment one makes mistakes, especially when one is already not at top form. I fence (or used to), and have been known to get knocked out of tournaments by one person who will use the same trick to score all five points on me (it takes 5 hits to win a bout) ...and then several hours later I come up with "I'm an idiot! All I had to do was counterparry!" Granted, Van is much more of a tactics expert than I, but no one gets things right all the time--in fact, people screw up a lot--and sometimes those mistakes, or accumulations of mistakes, cause fatalities. That given, I think Danya still has some good points; now if only I could get my brains together for a counterargument... Ele: yes, Leareth was an incarnation of Ma'ar, and no, the Bad Guy at the end of MPawn was not. My reason for thinking Krebain wasn't Ma'ar is that somewhere in MPrice, where Van briefs the Council before haring off after Leareth (or else it's in the briefing in the kyree caves after the rape), Van says that Leareth's been planning to move on Valdemar since before, or since the beginning of, Elspeth's reign. Why couldn't Ma'ar have been in Krebain's body and then hopped to Leareth? I get the impression that when he takes a new body he has to start over again building up a new power base, and that it takes a long time to find the new body in the first place. Also, Lord Rendan's father had had personal dealings with Leareth, which by implication would have been before Vanyel killed Krebain. --And if Leareth's been planning on moving against Valdemar since before Elspeth's reign, then he couldn't have been doing it in order to go after Vanyel; I think he was just trying to conquer, and he wanted to grab all the little countries to the west before taking on the Empire. Countries, not disorganized territory; his maximum convenience would require an infrastructure already in place. But by all means somebody with a book tell me if I've remembered the text incorrectly. Renee: congrats about the room, she *was* the one who by rights ought to have moved! Heather, O Grand Dame of the Order of Amber & Marigold, I hereby petition thee to admit myself, Lee (by grace of Jake a Spreader of Humor; Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"; and...er, a small striped cat), into thy most illustrious Order as a Knight; in support of my petition I offer up this post and the evidence of previous posts, which, while low-key in their vehemence, nevertheless rest on a profound reluctance to criticize the actions, strategies, or tactics of the Coolest Character ever written and someone whom I personally identify with, warts and all. --Lee-- 97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu -- www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/ "What time is it?" --Dekker, P. / Er...Spreader of Humor and Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 20:21:47 -0500 From: Korendil To: "Misty List" Subject: Brvaes Glares At ISP For Losing DNS For 38 Hours Message-ID: <9611190127.AA13650-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> I'm putting this line here since the stupid listserver takes my "sigh" as a command......this is my 3rd send or so... Sigh. I lose DNS for Friday and Saturday, and when I got it BACK, Auntie Mel couldn't put me back on the list until today. So this is quite a bit late. > Hey Jake, can I be your high priestess? *grin* There...all the >pomp amd ritual that position deserves...*grin* To my new office I bring >the never-ending cream pie, the complete works of Douglas Adams (No, the >_really_ complete works of Douglas Adams, with "Young Zaphod Plays It Safe") >and a large bottle of chocolate syrup. *grin* (Don't ask...it's much >simpler that way.) To fulfill my duties, I shall travel to the very ends of >the earth, I shall watch AbFab in re-runs. I shall...*Slight >shudder*...listen to all those Sesame Street tapes you sent me. And let us >not forget the most important of my duties....I shall pester you ceaselessly! Well...well...if you let ME have some position even though I AM a God...I'll ceaselessly watch my FULL Collection of Red Dwarf videos, search out Mr. Bean videos, read all the Pterry I can get my hands on, memorize the Humor File...and what do I ask for for allying with you, Jake? The ability to Name the Mime of Power without being flamed..such a TINY thing...right? >ObMisty: Selenay was _not_ the Queen of Everything, just the Queen of >Valdemar. Neither Vkandis nor Kalenel was the God of Night, just a basic god-deity-entity-being-thing >So, was it just me? No!!!!! >IS >"heyla" a very common salutation (I'd never heard heyla as a salutation >prior to reading Misty's work) no, and this is a subject I wanna touch on...all through, we think of "Heyla" as being Kaled'a'in culture centered...yet, looking through, the first use of it is, iirc Radeval (sp?), Van's cousin (or was it Mekeal, his brother? I forget)! I built around this and have a little theory: The Ashkevrons are descendants of Tayledras. My evidence? The name, Askhevron; the use of Heyla; the mage potential in the Ashkevrons; and the fault line in MPromise. They stayed behind and became integrated with the encroaching Valdemaran culture, and eventually forgot their roots... >the size of Valdemar sigh..this..I remember this...sorta..um..iirc, we never really concluded anything... >Okay. That's what I thought, but I knew it wouldn't hurt to ask. I think >you made a good move. It was a *very* disturbing episode. I'm >usually not bothered by them, but that one seemed more possible than the >others...or something. Plus I've only seen about 4 shows, so I'm not very >accomadated to it. Oo...just wait till you see Chickenville...or Fluke-Nobyl...or Meet the Peacocks...though that last one's new, and you might of seen it... > (btw, that's one of my *favorite* >scenes in the LHM books, when Jisa secretly marries ?Taver? --There's >too many T-names back then !) Trevan or something...Taver's a companion, iirc.. >Heralds, Harpers, and Havoc: Has kind of a recorded-in-your-basement sound to it, >but manages some really memorable music, I think. Not yet available on >CD. Yeah...Herald's Lament...and if it isn't available on cd, than how'd I get one close to a year ago? >Lovers, Lore, and Loss: You forgot to mention how horrible this cd is;> It's ALL MIDI! You can HEAR the computer! And they all sound so CHEERFUL in the songs meant to be depressing.. > Shadow Stalker: Heather Alexander sings everything. >Mostly gorgeous, occasionally annoying (most people go ballistic over >"Herald's Creed," but on the irritation meter, I find "Web of Light" the >worst offender). You liked _Creed_ more than WEB?!!!!<--- This I cannot believe. > what sounds like a Tayledras shaman's chant -- go >figure, but it's a nice song. Actually, it's a kyree song...the tayledras don't worship elements.. > Heather Alexander sings everything. Did >I mention that? Try to forget "Magic's Price," which is insufferably >bouncy, considering it was WRITTEN AS STEFEN'S FINAL TRIBUTE TO HIS LOST >LOVE. Ahem, sorry, didn't mean to yell. But if you've heard it, you >understand how absolutely inappropriate it is. Tape & CD. Eeyuck..before that cd came out, I constantly tried to figure out how wonderful it'd sound...so I got a bit sad when I got it...but I love "Shadow-Lover". I won't do any more of the music..too tired.. >Jake, *pout* you have spurned my petition and so...I shall join the >MIW in retailiation! So, nyah! :P *giggle* Do so and the whole list'll kill you;> have fun;> Ooohhh...on that song-for-char thread, I KNOW Ozzy's "Suicidal Dreams" fits somewhere, just not with WHO...maybe Karal? > Anywho, when is >Florian going to choose Karal. We all know it is going to happen, just a >matter of when. um...actually...read the Storm trilogy.... >ps-THose who have read Mage Storms III do not give too much away. then don't ask questions asking just that;P >*sniff*! Another great book I've got to wait for... any information on what >it's about? who's in it? I shall have to go home and console myself with my >signed copy of 'Maskerade'... y'know, Pterry is a *very* nice guy in >person... hey..don't complain..us Americans just got _Feet of Clay_, and never got _Interesting Times_..I'd like a copy of _Maskerade_ even if it WASN'T signed! >BTW, >has anyone heard anything about _Owlflight_ the book with is listed on >the timeline in SB? Any rumors or anything? Hmmm...? (Curiosity is >gonna kill me one of these days..) > The Tayledras, iirc from the Misty faq at firebird.. >What else, what else.. I knew i had something else to say... Oh yeah! >What is Firebird about? I hadn't really heaerd anytihng aobut it until I >joined the list and am now curious and will have to stay out of a >bookstore for sometime until I have money. ...and speaking of Firebirds...it's about a son of a Tsar, Ilya Ivanovitch (say THAT three times fast), who sees the Firebird which lead shim on adventure after adventure..kewl ending...I take back what I said before about how it didn't seem misty from the blurb..well..the blurb's as messed up as MPawn's anyway.. >The problem is that, >in BTS, Misty accidently refers to Idra as Daren's "Aunt Idra", when >she's his great Aunt. actually, I know that, I always call my great-aunt's "aunt so-and-so"....not much of a mistake, really... >I still think it's Jisa. The outfit (what we can see of it) looks to >feminine for Stef. Of coures, Jisa's clothes are supposed to be >as plain as the Holderkin's....... I still think it's her. If Van >can have black hair, Jisa can have nice clothes. But I don't think >that Jodi Lee would have *that* feminine a vision of Stef. A: Jake, find my cover thingy you got from me for the faq and gimme, and B: Always remember Princess Tashira and Envoyess Karalia...Gender is a very fluid thing for Jody Lee >Note, the Eng stuff can be a bit annoying correction, Eng is annoying period;> >Kory refuted my implication that the Kaled'a'in lost religious freedom by >accepting the patronage of Kal'enel & her male counterpart...Oops. I >didn't mean to imply that they ever had worshipped anyone else. Still, I >can't imagine some other religion popping up, say, on the Dhorisha Plains right, since if one did, no-one'd believe it. Why? Because the evidence of the Goddess was all around them! their very existence! Oh, yeah...people might remember me griping about the trouble I was having getting any books on Wicca...well, today I got Spiral Dance (I told my mom I needed a book for creative writing, and I subtly didn't allow her to look at the book...)....I'd of gotten another, considering, iirc from discussions ages ago, that many a person here doesn't like Spiral Dance, except it was the least obvious... I read Firebird, btw, and it was tres bon. Get it. It'll reaffirm your devotion to Misty. Not an LHM or BTS, but pretty good. -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 12:45:04 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Companions / HTH-OAM / Van / BW Message-ID: <9611190145.AA16622-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Ok, well, I tried for that PG rating. Hopefully didn't miss too far. Re the Companions in your mind: I just can't see it bothering me all that much, even if they were physically present during intimacy. This despite the fact that I have trouble letting people get close to me (there's gotta be some sort of record for having been told "I swear, everytime I think I know you..") Your Companion is your friend, your soul-sib and chances are you've gone through blood and fire and foes, with them. After that, who the heck has time for hang-ups over whether your Companion is in your head or in the room when you're having sex? Now the Companion, I can see minding - if you get emotional leakage down the link it could be somewhat frustrating, but if they don't mind, why should the Herald? Hmm, perhaps it's just me - I'm not that body-conscious - like I've maintained before, I'm just an innocent country lad at heart. :) I'd have more trouble with them seeing all the petty little thoughts we suppress as not being worthy. But then, given that they're so close, I probably wouldn't - I tend to open up waaay too much to people I trust. Anyway, I digress. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re The Order of Amber and Marigold: Heather, count me in. Like you hadn't already. :) But really, Marigold? For the smell?? Are we talking about those small circular golden-type flowers that smell hideous? The smell that rubs off and sticks to fingers and everything? I'll substitute Cinnamon, or Mint for it I think. *grin* As for appending cool things to my sig, well, I subscribe to something like the Pratchett School Of Elves & Monks of Cool philosophy - the coolest thing attached to my sig is damn well going to be my name, and if there's anything more cool in the sig I want it hunted down and shot. [1] [1] Okay, so I'm having a Pratchett/Douglas Adams day today. :) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (I'm cutting and pasting a little here, hope I haven't destroyed / perverted the sense of what you were saying). Danya wrote: > At 05:45 AM 11/18/96 GMT, Kerry Mealing wrote: > > Firstly, he [Van] did change the outcome. He won. > I never got the impression from Van's visions that he thought he lost; just > that he thought he died--a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it turned out. Danya, perhaps we're reading different things, or placing different emphases on Vanyel's Foresight visions. To me, the major point to Vanyel, was not that he saw himself dying, but that he saw himself dying, alone, unmourned and dying in vain. In the end, he died saving Valdemar, with his heart-sib at his side - he -did- change things. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Also, from Winds, the reason Leareth didn't return to plague Valdemar is two-fold. Firstly, he didn't reincarnate immediately - it takes an unknown amount of time until he's ready to reincarnate and one of his descendants is vulnerable; and Secondly, he has no choice as to -where- to reincarnate - I got the impression from the text that he reincarnated a long way away. Thirdly, it probably takes him time to build up his resources and get back his memories once he takes over a body. It took him 30 years to build up enough to harass the Tayledras after he took Andesha's body.. (Remember how old Andesha -actually- is, and how recently the Tayledras were attacked?). Fourthly, if there's one thing we learn about subsequent incarnations of Ma'ar, it's that he's something of a flibbety-gibbet - he flits from Grand-Conquest-Plan to Newer-And-Better-Plan from lifetime to lifetime. To him, it's a great game. (One that he just hates losing). I don't think he would really know what to do with himself if he -did- actually conquer the world. Danya wrote: > Actually, nothing of the kind would probably have happened. Learth was > after Vanyel. Learth was attacking people that Vanyel loved because Vanyel > loved them. Learth was after power. If there had been no Vanyel, Valdemar > would have been small pickings power-wise compared to the Empire. Besides, > your hypothetical situation has nothing to do with my point. I'm not saying > for a moment that Vanyel shouldn't have gone to stop Learth. Of course, he > should have! If he hadn't, he wouldn't have been Vanyel. I'm saying that > Vanyel _should_ have been able to stop him. The later books even make it > clear how ridiculously easy it would have been for him to do so (All he had > to do was to physically damage the mage's body, and the "soul" would have > moved along; Actually, textevd suggests Leareth was -not- after Vanyel, at least at first. The Heir apparent tripped and fell down the stairs long before Vanyel got chosen; and L had apparently been killing off mage-potential long before Van got on the scene. Vanyel was just an enticing distraction to him. (And I think it's likely that Leareth in his arrogance, didn't want Van killed. In that incarnation, he seemed to have a loneliness for an almost-equal). Leareth was attacking people Van loved because they had Mage-Gift. The evil adept in Tashir's country attacked people Van loved, just to rattle him. And Leareth couldn't have taken the Empire at that time - too large logistically, too many Adepts etc.. Valdemar was supposed to be vulnerable and easy pickings. As for being ridiculously easy to physically damage the mage's body.. It took Van a final strike (the largest expression of power that a Mage can make) to get through Leareth's shields. Even if Van did pull down the walls, I'd say those shields wouldn't be fazed. (I wrote that Van would use up most of his power bringing the pass down). Danya wrote: > How would Van be using up power? He works a relatively minor spell to > undermine the cliffs. The cliffs fall into the Pass on top of Learth and > company. Learth has to use his power to dig himself and his army out, > draining himself. Meanwhile all Van has to do is sit back and recharge. (A > situation that wouldn't have arisen anyway, although Van couldn't have known > that, because Ma'ar would have skipped out rather than bothering with the > damaged body.) I don't think it would be relatively minor, as I said earlier. Those cliffs were -fused- rock. Note also, that Mages throw round energy bolts, effectively - they're not the best thing for bringing down rock walls. A spell to bring down the walls would have taken crafting - time, and could have been countered before it did its work (if it had been cast during the fight). Even assuming it's possible. (And if it could have taken Leareth out, then Leareth had to be close enough to sense and oppose it's working). I wrote: > (A pass generally being the gap between two mountain peaks). Danya wrote: > If I recall correctly, this was a pass that Learth carved magically through > the mountain. Directly through the mountain. He did not take advantage of > the natural pass. He did not enlarge an existing pass. He just went > straight through. That's why Vanyel was so puzzled by the expenditure of > energy. It was a waste. It made no sense. And it bottle-necked at the > actual pass, enabling Van to make his stand in the first place. Leareth enhanced a natural pass. The pass went up and over, Leareth went through, making it flat (just as we replace old winding roads with flat freeways that cut into the side of a hill). Vanyel wasn't puzzled by the expenditure of the energy - it was clear that the pass had been widened and tailor-made to bring in lots of troops easily (as opposed to the original pass). He was -awed- by the amount of power required, and the doubling or tripling amount required to shield the use of the power (so that it wasn't detected by the mages of Valdemar). That's a clue as to how much power was required - if it hadn't been shielded, the Herald-mages could well have detected it, in Haven or wherever they were. That's a lot of power. Now triple it, for the amount spent to keep it's use secret. I wrote: >On the whole, while I argue the other side, I do tend to agree, I would >have been pulling the mountains down, and worrying about Leareth coming >through afterward. The problem would be to survive because you'd be using >your power for offence, not defence, while Leareth could concentrate his >power on surviving the rock-walls. It'd be much worse to die & leave Leareth >still there. (After all, an -average- Adept can summon hordes of things >from the netherworld). Danya wrote: > Ah, but certainly Van's shields would have held long enough. He already > knew what the place looked like. He didn't have to step out and say, "Hi, > I'm here!" He could have waited until Learth was at the desired spot, then > blasted away, and while Learth and the mages are looking for him, the walls > are tumbling down! My guess is that as soon as he started to pull power, every mage in the vicinity would have sensed him. Remember how he had to hide from that mage in Tashir's city? And by the time Leareth came through, the lesser mages and the army would have been through the pass. (Leareth only comes forward after all the rest of the mages are done for). Basically? I just think that anything Van could have done, Leareth could have countered, with his greater resources. I can't see Van as being tactically blind enough to miss something that obvious, if it had a snowball's chance of working. I don't know, perhaps we'll just have to agree to differ on this one. Heather wrote: (among lots of other good stuff) > The very nature of Final Strike, as I understand it from LHM and > CotN, is that it takes very little power to activate. It's what you do > when you've tried everything else, *and exhausted yourself,* and you > don't want to die by yourself. So then, it only makes sense that the > spell is one a dying mage can trigger -- i.e. not that hard. So just > because he had the power remaining to call down a Final Strike does not > necessarily mean that he had the power to collapse a mountain. As I understand it, it's not that it takes very little power to activate, it's that you're dipping into blood magery and tapping the whole of your life force - which is different from or above and beyond your energy reserve. There's still only so much power that you can call - an Adept's final strike is still going to be more powerful than a Master's. A fully- charged Adept's final strike is going to be that much more powerful than an exhausted Adept. It's your final reserve, the calling of the energy in the depths of your soul; and once it's gone, you're -gone-. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heather wrote: > Kerry, you'll pay. What have you stuck me with? I'm supposed to -- > defend some kind of villain or...what, now? And it's supposed to be > enlightening, too, I take it. *grin* I owe ya one. You did it. And also: > I can't really blame her for the sexually-experienced-female thing. > I don't think she made that up. If it really was a fertility sacrifice, > it makes perfect sense to sacrifice a woman we know is fertile, which > will require a little bit of experience. (And remember, the original > sacrifice wasn't single -- she was wossname's wife, Sherri). I meant the airline hostess actually - the one decided to walk to the dorms to save time, and who had sensible flat shoes and who put up a fight and nearly got away. (She was an interesting character. I liked her. I was -+AT+-#$-+AT+-#$-+AT+-'d when she didn't make it). And also: > I don't *know.* I can't focus on Misty villains until I find out what > happened to Callisto, dammit. What...what Kerry said...? Oi!!! That's my trick! :) Re America's Most Wanted: What you said. Even worse is that they seem to react the same to the wanted person whether they're the worst kind of hardened serial murderer, or something like bank fraud.. The sig seemed appropriate somehow today. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ele - sorry for mixing you up with Cennyd - I must have misread it. :) Cheers, Kerry. "There's so many different worlds, so many different suns And we have just one world, though we live in different ones. Now the sun's gone to hell, and the moon is riding high. Let me bid you farewell, every man has to die. But it's written in the stars -- and every line on our palms We are fools to make war on our brothers in arms." --Dire Straits, "Brothers in Arms." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 20:54:03 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: Vanyel/Amber & Marigold Message-ID: <9611190159.AA14680-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> > Most of them can only >feel the Web when a Herald dies. And if the Companions couldn't do >something to fake the death Stef's a Bard. Ah..but you forget...the web thingy was something NEW...most heralds, I'm sure, hadn't quite made the connection yet--or had they from the Guardian deaths? Btw, Jake..sorry for even saying B*p*y...didna' realize that things were going bad for you since I got knocked off for awhile... For apology, in my Status as Acting Master of Dreams, I gift thee with extremely colorful and creative dreams until thou getest un-burned out. And have hope, Jake. I'm STILL waiting for Citadel to hit the stores, which it _IS GOING TO DO_. And a friend of mine loves the humor file (yes, yes..I put all the atributions to thee in.). -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:04:40 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: monogomy and fidelity Message-ID: > Interesting example you used: isn't it said in AFall that Rolan thought that > Talia and Dirk became lifebonded when they first met each other way back when > Talia was coming into Haven for the first time? Admittedly, they didn't > realize it at the time, but the bond was there. Yet Talia and Kris did have a > relatively successful friendly sexual relationship, even though both realized > that they were not meant to be soley for each other. Therefor, it seems to me > that the lifebond itself doesn't preclude external intimacies, just that they > could not occur if either partner would be hurt by it i.e. the situation is > possible but rare. Ok, I have to jump in on the discussion now. I've been postponing, but I just can't any longer. First, I am a very ardent believer in monogamy, and personally couldn't have a physical relationship with someone I didn't deeply love more than anything. As to Talia/Dirk/Kris....isn't there some mention in AFall that both partners have to acknowledge the lifebond for it to be ?cemented? is that the word? Dirk had to admit that he loved Talia, in essence admitting that there was a lifebond there, before the Healer (I forget his name) would allow him to go to her when she was Healing. Someone find the textevd, please! It's right after she is rescued and Dirk goes to the healer and asks if he can try to bring Talia back, as she has gone "elsewhere" I believe Rolan says--and even Rolan can't reach her (A very interesting situation, given the type of bond they have, but that's another discussion to be saved for a rainy day...of course it's raining here, SO...anyone care to speculate on that?). anyway, the healer says something along the lines of Dirk needing a personal attachment to her in order to reach her, and Dirk replies in barely audible tones (as the healer is thinking, "Come on, come on, you can say it"), "I love her. Is that enough?" This seems to me to indicate that Dirk had to admit he was lifebonded to Talia before he could go in and help bring her back from "elsewhere." Which would then suggest that a lifebond must be admitted to by both for it to really have that deep effect on the two involved. IIRC, Talia had already admitted it before. If it wasn't this way, Dirk should have just been able to go in and bring her back, but he couldn't because he hadn't admitted that he was lifebonded to her. So before, in the Forest, when Talia was with Kris, she didn't even know about her lifebond, let alone admitted it, so I see nothing in that situation that would really suggest that lifebondeds could have relationships outside their bonds, because at that time, NO ONE knew of Talia's lifebond. Even Rolan was speculative when he finally made a comment about it. Tantris says, :Rolan *thinks* it *may* have been when they first met each other....: (emphasis mine)(actually, I don't think I'm doing so bad with the quotes, considering I haven't looked at the books in over a year--they're home, I'm not ). Lifebonds have to be admitted to before they become truly active....sort of like how you have to activate your credit cards before you can use them (bad analogy, but it's the only one i can think of right now.) And once they both did admit to the bond, they were completely monogomous, and IMO, wouldn't have even thought of seeking another for any reason. I also have to echo whoever it was that pointed out the comment in LHM about how shocked everyone (who knew, that is) was that Shavri would consider having sex with someone other than her lifebonded. I think this is pretty strong evidence that lifebondeds are monogomous, that they are so committed to their lifebondeds that they couldn't seek someone else. As to the Kestra'chern--is that it? The sexual healers, I mean. As to them, I think they are different, and exceptions by the very definition of their being. Well, this was much longer than I intended, and since I came to the Comp. Lab to do homework, I must go. WTTW, Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 19:41:11 EST From: lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Cc: lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com Subject: Re: Genderless Message-ID: <19961118.171342.18646.0.Lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com> . Hth asked that we: << *So,* all those of you who have been so supportive of My Cause in the past, *please* support the Order of Amber and Marigold, or I'm going to look pretty silly, being the only one out here spouting all this mushy stuff. To our banner! >> Heather, I, Silvermoon, Goddess of Sensitivity, Lady in Green, and Leader of the DDMF, hearby ask to join the the Order of Amber and Marigold. I have always loved Vanyel, and I will support this Order loyally. And, as my first active participation... You said: >> I don't think it was impossible to stop Leareth. I do think it was probably outside of Vanyel's capabilities at that moment -- and he really didn't have any time to recuperate, and he had no other mages to call on. While I sympathize with the feeling that Stef got royally $%!#&! in that incarnation, I don't think Vanyel had as many options as you think he should have had. There's a difference between having the perfect strategy and having the resources to pull it off in the time you're given.<< Go Heather! You did a marvelous job preotecting Van, without flaming anyone to death. =) Then, later on you said: >> I realize there are going to be those of you out there who don't think I'm being reasonable here. Not everyone believes in the same three moral imperatives I do -- no one true way and all, and of course you do what you see fit. And I am taking this awfully seriously, it being just a TV show and all. But I feel like we're all infected and under the care of some medieval doctor who keeps leeching us, not realizing that while we might be able to survive the infection if we take proper care of ourselves, we won't be strong enough to do that if we're bleeding to death at the same time.<< I have never watched that show, though I used to think it would probably be a good one. I do, however, think you are being reasonable. Go ahead and take it seriously, I would have. And I am. I feel the same way you do, I believe. The entire thing you described made me sick, and feel...well...what's the word I want..betrayed. Even though I've never watched the show, this story completely changes what I thought about it. Hate is a terrible thing, and I think that the media only promotes it. Some people are truely screwed up a bit, or have nasty intentions. But that doesn't make them any less human. I think it's a matter of point of view. We were all glad to see Ma'ar/Falconsbane get destroyed. Yet he was portrayed as "the bad guy." He was supposed to be destoyed by the "good guys." I would bet anyone that the man who that vomit line was about wasn't a truly evil person. I bet if we saw his side of the story, we'd at least feel a little bit different. But it seems the show is based on the victim's POV. Sadly I've been feeling betrayed a lot lately. And I don't think there is anything I can do about it. Boy this is a depressing ending. Hmmmm....dunno. I'm not really in the mood to think of anything else. Lady Silvermoon LIG, Leader of the DDMF, Goddess of Sensitivity, and (hopefully)Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold. "could have been easier on you, i couldn't change though I wanted to, could have been easier by three, our old friend fear and you and me." _Glycerine_ Bush ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 20:44:57 -0500 From: Korendil To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van Message-ID: <9611190150.AA14436-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> >Huh? I don't understand what you are seeing as twisted. Fact: Falconsbane >did not got after Valdemar; he went after Taleydras mages. Fact: The >Taleydras were far better equipped to defend themselves against a mage in >Falconsbane's day than Valdemar was. Conclusion: Valdemar did not have >what Falconsbane was after. I don't remember any evidence that he lost his >memories of his previous life. If he did, then that sort of knocks out the >argument someone else made that Leareth had more experience than Vanyel >because of the previous lives. Fact: All incarnations of Ma'ar that we meet after LHM are in Kaled'a'in-descendant lands. Fact: over incarnations, Ma'ar slowly went insane and forgot things Fact: we know this had started by LHM from the creature that killed savil, imo. I think it was the closest thing to a makaar that he had the magical technology to create. Fact: By Winds, he hated gryphons and kaled'a'in peoples and heralds but didn't really know why. Fact: he didn't seem to recgonize the name of valdemar by then. Fact: we have no evidence that he jumped when he wanted to; it was a set spell and afawk, he HAD to jump. Fact: The Peligirs are very far from Valdemar. Conclusion: A: after LHM Ma'ar wasn't geographically placed to attack Valdemar. B: He grew increasingly mentally unstable. C: He attacked the people he hated who were near him. These were from his hazy memories in past lives, imnsho. D: As time passed he forgot more and more of Leareth to the point he did not even recgonize the name Valdemar. >Huh? I'm sorry, but it's your logic I'm not following. I never said >Leareth didn't kill off the mages of Valdemar. If the body was the problem, >Valdemar _still_ didn't have any mages when he got one, so he _could_ have >taken it when his new body got old enough. Location is no insurmountable >problem when you live on a world with Gates. And I simply can't think of >textevd that Ma'ar lost all his memories of each life every time he jumped >to a new body. How could he remember how to jump between bodies if that >were true? Location IS insurmountable in a world with gates. It takes large ammounts of energy to Gate from the Dhorhisa area to Valdemar, a useless waste when older and greater enemies were nearby. We know of at least three Ma'ars who attacked the kaled'a'in peoples: Ma'ar; the one someone mentions to someone who attacked the Shin'a'in; and Falconsbane. He didn't lost more memories, but in 700 years he lost all of his time as Leareth except the name and a faint anger and Heralds. And I think the body jump spell was a set-spell. Automated. >A low car battery won't start the car. And Van did have Yfandes. Who said it was low? He had a LOT of mages and northern shamans. All van had was one mage to draw on..and a mage who had expended a lot of energy recently to get back to the guard tower. -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 23:47 EST From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: MAXIBRAID: nearly everything :) Message-ID: >In reply to a Bardic Gift question, posed by Herald Michel, I wrote: > >> Maybe Savil did not want to subject Van to what might be considered >> "invasive" testing in order to prove or disprove something that could easily >> be done by his performing. Since Van was not familiar with gifts, having >> his aunt enter his mind, at the level necessary to test for gifts, would >> probably not have been too welcome. > >Then MornigStar replied: Ah, but Savil had tested him before, the first time in Van's memory that >she'd gone to the keep. Savil asked Treesa if he had evedenced any >gifts, and when Treesa gave a slightly featherbrained answer, she tested >him herself and found "potential, but nothing active." >This is from the bit in Magic's Pawn where Van first learns he's going >to be packed off to Haven to live with his aunt and is remembering her >visit. And I would like to point out: Yes, I see your point, and I remember the incident, but I think the situations are different. When Van was a kid it probably would not have mattered much, and also, Savil had a relatively strong reason for testing him that way (she was very concerned about detecting potential mage candidates), whereas now she was convinced Van did not have Gifts that would get him Chosen. So testing him now, would only add to Van's feeling of 'strangeness'. Even though Savil is not too good with people (according to her), she realises from the first that Van is defensive, and thinks it is possibly due to the treatment he has received. How would any one of us react to having someone inside our heads in order to see if we have the Bardic Gift, when it was perfectly possible and even desarable to have him play for the Bards in order to know? I feel it would have been sort of like ordering a CAT scan or a magnetic resonance scan for a sprained ankle, when a plain X-Ray or even a physical examination would do ;) Shannon wrote: >I've been following this debate about Vanyel's death with interest, and >here's my take on the situation. Van *had* to die. When Stefen goes to >the Forest to kill himself, he encounters Van's spirit, who tells him to >try to change the perception of the people that Herald Mages were better >than Heralds. If Van hadn't died, that couldn't have been accomplished >because there he'd be, the hero who took out the army of Leareth all on >his own, and that perception would have just gotten stronger. That >whole theme was pretty constant throughout the book, everyone thinking >Heralds were less than Herald Mages. I hope that made sense. :) > I don't completely agree. Imagine the scenario if Van had not died. He was young (or at least relatively young -certainly no more than 40 and probably no older than 35, unless I've got my timelines wrong). If Leareth had not died Van would have been for some time THE Herald-Mage, but pretty soon kids with the potential would have cropped up. The Companions themselves would probably have gone to greater lenghts to find those or to 'import them' form the neighboring kingdoms. So, assuming nothing disastrous happened, and supposing Van was not killed in the meantime, after about 15 years at the most, the ranks of Herald Mages woudl have been if not complete, at least not so diminished. I hope this makes sense :) On the other hand, if he had gotten killed sometime after beating Leareth, well, he would probably have been the last Herald Mage for the time being, but that would be that. Shannon continued. > request the status of a Dame in the Order of Amber and >Marigold. Vanyel brought me to the world of Velgarth, with much love >and many tears, and I wouldn't be the same without him. > I would like to borrow your words if that is OK, Shannon -if it isn't I guess I've already done it ;) and I can only apologise. I would not be able to put it better than you. I hereby also request the Status of Dame in the Order of Amber and Marigold. >Someone wrote (sorry, got into a deleting frenzy before time) >> >to lack the in-depth training that Savil or the Tayledras had - he seemed >> >to have the basics down pat, but not the in-depth theoretical knowledge >> >that they had - he winged it based on hypotheses and intuition without >> >necessarily having the background to let him think of things like losing >> >his ground so that his shields could spin with the winds. I tend to disagree. Even though Van was probably not Firesong's equal, in the sense that he did not develop as many spells or abilities as his descendant, he is pictured as a mage who did things no one had tried before, and mainly on his own. (Van probably did not have as much time for idle experimenting as Firesong did). I think there is enough evidence for Van having in-depth theoretical knowledge. Remember HIS changing the Web spell so as to tie all the Heralds as the power source, and his making a heartstone in the center of Haven. Also, his involving the vrondi, etc. Even if he is not as good with set spells as Savil, he is described as the ranking Herald mage for encounters that do not involve the kind of complicated ravelling and unravelling a set spell might imply. That would mean he can also be original and creative in his arcane duels as well as in more ordinary endeavours. Am I making any sense? >HTH wrote: >> I don't think it was impossible to stop Leareth. I do think it was >>probably outside of Vanyel's capabilities at that moment -- and he >>really didn't have any time to recuperate, and he had no other mages to >>call on. While I sympathize with the feeling that Stef got royally >>$%!#&! in that incarnation, I don't think Vanyel had as many options as >>you think he should have had. There's a difference between having the >>perfect strategy and having the resources to pull it off in the time >>you're given. > Dyana replied: >But I think he _did_ have the resources when he first stepped into view at >the Pass. He was throwing magic around _before_ the rape, but I don't >recall him doing anything like that _after_ he started recuperating with the >kyree. Meanwhile, Leareth's been carving his way through solid rock. If >anything, Leareth is the one who's "battery power" is low, while Van has had >time to recharge (I got the impression that he stayed with the kyree a lot >longer than just a couple of days.). > I tend to agree with Korendil on the issue of battery power involved (Van only had the nearby nodes + his reserves, whereas Leareth was having energy channeled to him from afar). However, I DO agrre with Dyana that Van had the upper hand in a lot of ways, since he knew more or less exactly what was going to happen, and he was strategically situated. >Danya said: >>I'm pretty sure it's an Adept-level spell in Misty's world, just as >>it is in most gaming systems. Emily replied: >I seem to recall someone who was not an Adept (Kethry?) saying that >if all else failed, they would do a final strike on the mage they >were fighting. The basic purpose of Final Strike is that you die, but >you take your last enemy with you. I also remember someone saying >Not even an Adept can withstand a Final Strike, but I can't remember >who. Usual drill, books in PA, me in OH. I do not know if you are referring to the scene in Obreakers when Kethry, Tarma and Jadrek are returning to Petras and find a mage in the pass, and Keth challenges him. If that is the scene, Keth *is* an Adept at that time. I cannot find the book right now, so no text evd (Oathbreakers has an incredible tendency to disappear when I'm trying to find it). BTW, you probably HAVE discussed this at length, and if so, please let me know. But how is Keth able to trance and gather energies around her, pass her Adept test in the forest and then disguise Tarma magically right in the living room of Roald's lodge, when the vrondi should have been driving her crazy. I know that in BTS Kero mentions something about her grandmother telling her there was some mistery in Valdemar concerning mages, but.... Regarding the search engine for archives Cennydd dared to request, and the rest of us were longing to have, our beloved listmistress wrote: > >There will be one, at some point; I've got some software here which probably >just needs installing, but I must make sure it's not going to bring Vanyel >to his knees first. Fret not, it'll happen in the not _too_ distant future. Goody! Long live our listmistress. Wintershard, you demon! Art thou losing thy touch? Or art thou trying to lull me into a false sense of security until Cennydd makes you a God? Are you just biding your time? The weather in Uruguay has been PERFECT these last 3 days. Sunny, warm, but not too hot, a beautiful breeze coming from the sea. I have been able to get rid (at least for the time being) of woolen clothes. Well, I'm done for the time being, WTTW Ele Priestess of Karma ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 961 *********************************