MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 965 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Heartstones and insanity by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu 2) Re: Van's death/ Baudino Strands books by hallett-+AT+-sprynet.com 3) Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 4) Lavan / Final Strike (Last) / Moreta by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 5) Braid: Clan/Music/Marriage/Burning Water/The Pass by Ken Hyde 6) Re: Van's death by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 7) Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 8) Brvaes Goes On Writing Spree In Rioting St.Pete (pun intended) by Korendil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:21:30 -0600 (CST) From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK Subject: Heartstones and insanity Message-ID: <961119162130.22bb9766-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu> Jerry said: >sets things up for the >_Arrows_ books which were written earlier. Yes, it's sad that Van gets >killed - but it's not as though he's *gone*, and more heroic than lingering >on into lesser challenges or obscurity... I agree, and many have already given great answers, so 'nuff said. re Callisto Nightshade, should you or any one else like to know what happend you can e-mail me private at graymt-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu. Be happy to spoil for you. re what Deniz said about heartstones IMOHO Falconsbane went after the Heartstone because that's where the strongest lines tied into the biggest node...He was after Power and more of it, blood magic is great, and stream magic is better, but that kind of gathered active potential would drive him to distraction. Remember the mages that lived in the country next to Tashir's? They wanted access to the node magic of the Heartstone because it was so powerful, it was causing them to wipe out an entire royal line. That heartstone was powerfull enough to keep a major fault from destroying the lands around but also to heal it in a few hundred years. All the Talaydres Heartstones serves the same type purposes, to draw in all the magic around so that it can be recycled safely. Sort of a nuclear storage site. re Falconsbane going insane It just occurred to me that what was happing to Falconsbane is pretty much the same as what Vanyel thought had happened to the mage- assassin that nearly killed his mother. He had the mind overlay of a mage that stole power from other mages, but didn't clean them of the previous personalities. Falconsbane takes over the body and he doesn't even bother to oust the former occupant, much less clean up the personallities, so those bits of foreign personallity would continue to cling, slowly driving him insane as he tried to remember if something was his memory or someone elses. re Firemist and the Pelagir world Hey! what does Pelagir mean? is it Talaydres? like Ashke, if so, then it could mean something like "twisted magic", in which case, any place with warped magic would be called "pelagir", and once it was cleaned up the Birdlords move on and humans come in and settle renaming it whatever suits their fancy. There, an entire post without a pun. Dax the Eternal, Lady of the Unicorns and Pegusai Goddess-canidate of Elves Evangelist of Low Humor "The light cannot go out comepletely as long as one unicorn remains" - Legend once it was cleaned up the Birdlords move on and humans come in and settle renaming it whatever suits their fancy. There, an entire post without a pun. Dax the Eternal, Lady of the Unicorns and Pegusai Goddess-canidate of Elves Evangelist of Low Humor "The light cannot go out comepletely as long as one unicorn remains" - Legend ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:33:56 -0800 From: hallett-+AT+-sprynet.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death/ Baudino Strands books Message-ID: <199611192233.OAA25635-+AT+-m4.sprynet.com> Danya Wrote: >Yeah, BUT . . . What did Van do to deserved another sixty years of >separation from his beloved? We've seen that being dead is not the >impediment to Van that it is to most people. We've decided that the two >_could_ enjoy each other once Stef got to Sorrows. So what kind of a crummy >deity says, "Thanks for saving the world, oh, and by the way, you get to be >alone and unable to talk to anyone but your Companion for three times longer >than you've already been alone because I need to make sure your lover >understands what you felt like when he died!"?! Very true. I have no clue what Van did to deserve it, if anything; I just think that part of the divine plan. Sometimes life isn't fair by our mortal standards. Plus, Stef had a destiny to fullfil, to help Valdemar over come the "but he's ONLY a Herald, Not A Herald Mage!!!" mindset which was deemed important to the future of Valdemar. I'm sure that was part of why Stef had to stay and finish out his life as well. And while it wasn't really fair to Vanyel from a mortal POV in that karmic sense, I'm sure the deity coudn't sacrifice the future of Valdemar so that Vanyel would have the companionship he deserved. >One problem with that (heck, Misty didn't even give the two that poor bit of >comfort!): Van says quite clearly that Stef has to spend the rest of his >life _alone_ and that the next time Stef will see Van is after Stef has died >of old age I forgot about that! I've got to get those books out of boxes, but putting the library together is going kind of slow. Anyway, one can dream, right? Khenta wrote: (BTW, take your time responding! I sure do!) >Arielle wrote: (btw, I'll write back soon, promised!): >>(re: Strand of Sunlight): >>It is book four in a series, but I thought >>all of them were pretty good except the third book, Shroud Of Shadow. Now >>there's one depressing book!) >Argh! What do you mean, _Shroud_ is #3? What are the others? Now I was >so proud and boasting that I'd found it second-hand-wise (along with >Gossamer Axe), the ad for _Strand_ saying it was a sequel to _Shroud_. So >I thought (hey, I'm not going to say _assumed_, I know that pun!) I've To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari Message-ID: <1BAB5C4DE0-+AT+-future.judson.edu> > Yeah, BUT . . . What did Van do to deserved another sixty years of > separation from his beloved? We've seen that being dead is not the > impediment to Van that it is to most people. We've decided that the two > _could_ enjoy each other once Stef got to Sorrows. So what kind of a crummy > deity says, "Thanks for saving the world, oh, and by the way, you get to be > alone and unable to talk to anyone but your Companion for three times longer > than you've already been alone because I need to make sure your lover > understands what you felt like when he died!"?! > > Problem here---Stef has a job to do--a BIG job, and he is the only one who can do it...he's the only bard with any kind of connection to a Herald-Mage. So their separation for 60 years was necessary. Van had his job to do--protecting Valdemar through Sorrows, and Stef had his job to do..convincing the rest of Valdemar that regular Heralds were just as effective as Herald-Mages. Yeah, it probably did suck that they couldn't be together, but they both understood their duty...Stef still could have killed himself and been with Vanyel, but he realized that Van needed him to stay alive to do what was in the best interests of Valdemar. But I think he mainly did what he did because Van asked him to, because he loved him enough to put aside his personal desire to be with Van, and because he trusted Van to know what was the right thing to do in that situation. Yes, they both wanted to be together, but they both knew that it simply wasn't possible to do so until their final duty was complete. And since Van was a Herald, he couldn't have just tossed aside his duty in favor of his personal desires. It wouldn't be in his nature. Not to mention that Fandes probably wouldn't have let him do it anyway. But, as consolation, I'm sure they made up for lost time when Stef finally did make it to Sorrows. Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 10:30:44 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Lavan / Final Strike (Last) / Moreta Message-ID: <9611192330.AA18266-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Jag wrote ( > His name is Lavan. Lavan Firestorm, and AFAICR (as far as I > can remember) it wasn't a Final Strike. IIRC, his Companion was killed > at.. Burning Pines? And he went practically insane. He called down his > last firestorm on himself and whoever his enemy was, but it wasn't a Final > Strike as such, it was just an uncontrolled Gift... my take on all this is > that, given that Final Strike is capitalized, it's a spell, but it's also > a kamikaze maneuver if it's not. Mmm, I thought I recalled the phrase "called down the firestorm in a final strike" re Lavan, but perhaps I'm making that up out of whole cloth. Need textevd for that one, but I'm not convinced that Final Strike is a spell. My definition of it would be the explosive use of power released by a willing self-sacrifice - it's just life-energy - and anyone can use it to power any gift (because people use their own energy all the time - you don't need to be Mage-gifted to see the energy because you know it's there and can draw on it). Mages use it most, obviously, but I don't see why any other Gifted couldn't use it as well, especially if their gift is patently suited to offence (such as a Fire-Starting Gift). And remember, Lavan Firestorm so seared the pass that he called the firestorm down on, that centuries later, no trees grow there. That amount of energy is far more than I can see even a powerful Fire-Starter summoning up, in anything other than a final Strike. Even for a rogue gift, that just seems a little powerful.. OTOH, Van shook the palace with his untrained drug-enhanced gifts. And Van and Savil wouldn't rule out the possibility that Tashir had torn the people and furnishings in the palace apart, with a rogue Fetching gift. But personally I think rogue gifts like that, are tapping into your well of life-force - it seems right (textevd? I seem to remember some somewhere) that rogue gifts can burn out their 'owner', like a candle snuffed in the wind. That'd only be possible if it were tapping life-force. Oh, more textevd. Both Talia when she's tracing her way back to Ylsa's death site, and Dirk when he's trying to retrieve Talia, talk about spinning bits of their life-force, (did they use the word soul?) into the effort. Sounds very like a small-scale, slow (non-fatal) version of the final strike - certainly the text suggests you can drain yourself to death by overextending a gift. (And the text flat out states that Ancar was powering his Mage-Gift with a drawn-out version of a final strike, so it does seem possible). This sort of thing seems similar to the classic hysterical strength - the drawing on deep reserves - that mothers are reputed to do to save their offspring from things like burning buildings etc. My conclusion: Gifts can be powered from your own life-force (as well as your normal reserve of energy). The draining of all your life-force (plus any undrained normal reserves) in one explosive detonation is a final strike. This life-force reserve can also be drained more slowly. It's not all-powerful - Leareth had sufficiently powerful shields (given his resources) that it took, effectively, final strike from both Van & Yfandes, to take him out. (Van notes before Yfandes turns up, that he didn't have enough reserves left to take Leareth, even on a final strike. He did -not- say he couldn't Final Strike, just that it wouldn't be powerful enough). Right. That's it for me on Final Strikes. The textevd is there. Re the Kook: Hadenalith.. (Yeah, I meant White Gryphon, not Silver. I've yet to get Silver actually). Cennyd wrote: > If she hadn't, she > probably *would* have ended up with something like _Moreta_ (which is > unquestionably one of the worst McCaffrey books I have ever had the > misfortune of reading, precisely because she didn't stick to her guns). Cennydd - agree with everything you said, but since it's years since I've read _Moreta_, can you refresh my memory as to why it was so bad? As far as I remember, McCaffrey -did- kill off major characters as the ballad of Moreta's Ride recorded things happening. Cheers, Kerry. "Like the falling leaves and the shifting past Sometimes the treasured things are not the things that last And we know where we stand, between fear and desire With one fist raised in anger, with one foot in the fire." --Shriekback, "Dust and Shadows" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:07:56 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Braid: Clan/Music/Marriage/Burning Water/The Pass Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Tresta wrote: > attention of the Voices. And now I offer to you all that this kind of > mental link between a horse and rider is not really such a farfetched > thing. I do this; mindtouching the horses is part of my Gift. I have to ask this, art thou talking about RL or a persona on the list? I mean, thou hast made mention of your "clan" and "gifts" before. What is this about? At the risk of seeming really rude, I have to ask this: dost thou believe that this is real life? As far as the clan goes, this seems plausible if thou art a member, for example, of one of the Native American cultures that is organized in terms of clans. But it seems that thou art refering to Shin'a'in clans. Or am I just off in lala-land and completely misreading thy posts? -----EOM/BOM On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Ele wrote: > Cennydd replied: > >Much as I would love to grant this petition, I fear that my Priestess > >Deniz has put her finger on the crux of the matter. Oops. I apologize to my Priestesses, and to Mat, for this inadvertant co-opting. I really do know who my Priestesses are. I meant to say Ele, not Deniz, and I actually wrote Deniz, backspaced over it to correct it, and then apparently typed Deniz once again. Apparently, my brains and my fingers were not in communication at the time. -----EOM/BOM On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Deniz wrote: > >Oooo! Good! You are right, I wasn't really thinking about these. I > >was thinking in terms of European music of the period that is the > >closest > Most people tend to do that. I don't know why, but we (referring to the > majority of peoples who just happen to not be Black (and I say that with > respect), tend to forget about the power of their Spirituals and such. > Gospel is a strong tradition for a reason. Actually, if I may make a point, I did not say that I don't ever think of African-American music, I said that I was thinking in terms of another tradition, one that naturally excludes New World musical traditions. If we had been talking about spiritual music, I certainly would have thought of and included African-American spiritual music in the discussion. > Hmm. Big John de Conquer? I don't know. I can pull up my > bibliography, though, and use those to start looking. Any info you > have would help me. The best collection of stories in written format is an anthology by Zora Neale Hurston. > Well, there's Chichester Psalms! Unless I am mistaken these are Christian, despite having some Hebrew text. -----EOM/BOM On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Tresta (back again *grin*) wrote: > Is anyone else dying to know...are they married, or aren't they?! Does it matter? They are in love and committed to each other. That is clear from the narration. That seems to me to be the important thing. -----EOM/BOM Then Kerry wrote: > The possession and sacrifice of Robert/Burning-Water Er, I haven't read that book in a long time (I can't stand it, frankly), but "Burning Water" was the title of the God Tezcatlipocha, not of a person. At least, in real life. There are several translations of the acclamation-style name of Tezcatlipocha which all refer to the same image, the sun-disk. Burning Water and Smoking Mirror are the two translations that are most commonly used, AFAIK. > the sacrifice of others, took him across the bound, to what we can > consider evil. But that doesn't make him a less sympathetic character. Actually, ironically, some of the sacrifices had nothing to do with Tezcatlipocha. The drowning of the children, for example, was a sacrifice to a moon goddess(?) whose name escapes me at the moment. But, as far as the sacrifice of a variety of people goes, remember that Tezcatlipocha's religion was centered around human-sacrifice. The sacrifices were not made just out of revenge, but because that was the way he had always been worshiped. This pattern of constant human sacrifice was what fueled the "imperialism" of the Colhua Mexica (the "Aztecs"): they were always in need of fresh sources of sacrificial prisoners. So, Burning Water was not really behaving any differently than he had always behaved, historically. And as for whether that makes him evil or not, I guess it depends on whether you think he was a God or not. If he was, then what he did could not be evil, since he would define "good." This is analogous to stoning a an adulteress or burning a witch. If you believe in a certain version of Christianity, then these acts are not evil, because God has commanded them and they are therefore, by definition, good acts. Of course, if you aren't inside the system as a believer, then the acts are pretty hard to accept. -----EOM/BOM On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Kerry wrote: > I don't think it would be relatively minor, as I said earlier. Those > cliffs were -fused- rock. Note also, that Mages throw round energy > bolts, effectively - they're not the best thing for bringing down rock > walls. I tend to agree with this. After all, it really doesn't take *that* much to protect from even a nuclear bomb. American missile silos are shielded so that anything short of a direct hit will leave the missiles undamaged and able to launch, for example. And the amount of concrete used in reinforcing them is surprisingly small, given how powerful and destructive we tend to think nuclear weapons are. I think that several feet of fused rock and earth (particularly if the rock is basalt or granite as it seems to have been) is going to require something more directed than a blast of energy. After all, bomb-type blasts aren't really that powerful in terms of how much of their destructive force they bring to bear on a particular area. Perhaps, with a little time and a lot of power, the walls could have been undercut using something along the lines of a magical laser, but I don't think any amount of blast energy could have brought down the pass walls without the undercutting. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:16:30 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death Message-ID: <199611200116.RAA24154-+AT+-latimes.com> At 10:34 PM 11/19/96 GMT, Ken Hyde wrote: >I have to say that for someone who used the excuse that she was too busy >to bother with braiding and other aspects of List Etiquette when she first >joined the list, Danya seems to have plenty of time now. 11 messages >today on the question of Van's death. Sigh. Let me try explaining this again, since you've apparently fogotten. I can answer mail immediately, replying to whoever sent it, just fine. Or I can download through three different machines into a windows program, save, go out to DOS, convert to my DOS Word Processor, answer the messages/braid/whatever, go back into windows upload the messages through the system of servers that I have to use, and then hope you can read whatever actually gets sent to the listserve. I would rather not be on the list than go through that hassle. So if you only take posts that are braids, forget it. All you would see from me would be a bunch of foreign language characters and weird codes interspersed throughout whatever it was I typed, so I might as well quit the list. > >All I have to say on the subject is that Danya might want to consider >actually offering a little textual support for her contentions. I have been, if you read my posts. >First of >all, is there any textevd supporting Danya's conception of a Final Strike. >I know that several people have provided textevd that supports the >contention that Final Strike is not a spell that requires a massive amount >of energy, but does release a massive amount. The version of >Final Strike that Danya seems to be arguing does not seem to me >to be based on anything in Misty's writing. What do you think am I offering? I'm very confused. I'm saying that Vanyel should not have called down the Final Strike. "Vanyel . . . called lightnings down out of [the clouds] to lash the ground just ahead of the first rank, as he simultaneously illuminated himself with a blinding blue glare of mage-light. "The lightning exploded the trail in front of him, the ice-covered rocks screaming as the powerful force lashed them, heating them enough to turn the ice into steam in an eyeblink." He can "explode" the ground of the Pass. My contention is that he could have exploded the base of the walls instead, collapsing them into the Pass. Avalanches in nature can be started by a lot less than that, and in my previous posts I've cited the text that shows the area was prone to rockslides. >Secondly, Danya has made >several statements about the kinds of spells Vanyel could have used, and >the effects they do have. I would like to see textevd from Misty's >writing that such spells are available and would have those effects. See above. >Danya, the number of years you have been AD&D gaming and your expertise on >magic within that system is not particularly germaine to the issue. LHM >is not a AD&D campaign. To be quite honest, I have yet to see anything in >any of Misty's books that suggests a connection or influence from AD&D. I mentioned the number of years because someone else mentioned the number of years he/she had been gaming. Try the basilisk that Darkwind hunts with Elspeth for one example of Misty taking from the AD&D system. The description is based off the AD&D monster, not the folkloric version of the monster, which has a human or avian (cock's) face and which is often synonymous with what the AD&D world refers to as a cockatrice. There are other examples, but I'm sure you don't really want me to point them out. >Finally, Danya has completely failed to address the one really telling >piece of textevd that has been offered about the battle: the scene >where Van realizes that he is out-classed. As much as a Van-fan might >wish to deny its existence, the text makes it very clear (as Cara pointed >out in her citation) that Leareth is not only "much better" than Van, but >he is much more powerful, with much greater resources. As for Van's >battle with the Leareth subordinate mages, I would like to see evidence >from elsewhere in the books that Van could take on multiple, powerful >mages in a arcane duel and not exhaust his power sources. That scene is already after where I think the plot went wrong. If the plot went the way I describe, that scene would never have occured. That scene is also what turns the story into a version of "David and Goliath" that does not pay off with the traditional ending. >A final point that I would like to bring up, as several others already >have (Jerry was particularly succinct and on target), is that regardless >of our personal feelings for Van, the truth (according to Misty, who is >the final authority) was that Van died fighting Leareth at the pass. It >was established as historical fact from the very beginning and there is no >indication at any point in the Velgarth books that such an event did not >occur. I never said that the incident never happened. I said that I disagreed with the direction Misty insisted on taking the plot. >Misty obviously felt that there was no good reason for concocting >a sleight of hand to allow Van to live while giving everyone the >impression he had died. I agree with her. Van's survival would not have >accomplished anything except to completely eviscerate the trilogy of any >meaning or pathos. Frankly, I have always thought that Van's death was >Misty's great shining moment of true writing genius. She did not opt for >some authorial sleight of hand to allow everyone a nice "feel good" ending >where the good guy wins and lives happily ever after. She took the high >road and followed through on the plot that she had been foreshadowing and >developing since she first wrote a Valdemar novel. If she hadn't, she >probably *would* have ended up with something like _Moreta_ (which is >unquestionably one of the worst McCaffrey books I have ever had the >misfortune of reading, precisely because she didn't stick to her guns). And I think that Misty _did_ use authorial sleight of hand to force Van to die because the outline she had sketched out with Larry said that that was what had to happen. What she did _does_ ruin the last book for me. I don't like thinking of Van as stupid; he wasn't, and he wasn't under fire at the time he was setting up his "classic" tactics. I don't like thinking of Van as not having learned from everything he had been through; he knows better than most if the bully is a big, bashing brute, you change your fighting style to something some folks look down on as "sneaky." I don't like spending my free time reading something that tells me that good can triumph over evil but to do so the good guy has to get royally screwed. That's not a message we need in the world today. Who in their right mind would ever want to be the good guy, if that were the case? You can be evil and nothing bad happens to you unless you have the misfortune to run up against the hero; but if you're the hero you get to lose your lover *twice* and get raped and die. Lucky you. You saved the day. Congratulations, you're dead. Why go for that message when the good guy could have won against the odds and lived to enjoy the victory? Yeah! The world's a better place because I went through all that horrible stuff. Big name science fiction and fantasy authors have proven that the more inspirational message can be delivered with style and not "eviscerate" the series. Asimov did it with Daneel, Tolkien with Gandalf, and so on. By your reasoning, _Arrows_ is "eviscerated" because Talia didn't die, _Black Gryphon_ is no good because Skandranon lived. I don't buy that. Unfortunately Misty did what she did, and we're stuck with that (I don't know what ever gave you the idea I ever said otherwise.). And that _does_ ruin the series for me because I can see an alternate plot that I would have preferred. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:58:55 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari Message-ID: <199611200158.RAA25002-+AT+-latimes.com> At 11:34 PM 11/19/96 GMT, JAIME HATHAWAY wrote: >Problem here---Stef has a job to do--a BIG job, and he is the only >one who can do it...he's the only bard with any kind of connection to >a Herald-Mage. So their separation for 60 years was necessary. >Van had his job to do--protecting Valdemar through Sorrows, and Stef >had his job to do..convincing the rest of Valdemar that regular >Heralds were just as effective as Herald-Mages. Yeah, it probably >did suck that they couldn't be together, but they both understood >their duty... I think it was possible for them both to do those jobs and still get at least a chunk of each year together. Stef has to compose, somewhere, sometime. He could have done it in Sorrows--some explanation for his yearly absence such as a pilgrimage he makes in memory of his lost love. He could perform his pieces, teaching them to Bards at remote sites, while he made the journey. Meanwhile, Van is alive and well, living in Sorrows and defending Valdemar, probably legends of his spirit haunting the Forest. They'd get at least as much time together as they did when the situation was reversed and Stef was the one who had to stay put while Van went charging around the countryside for months at a time. Plus, they wouldn't have the added problem of obligations at Court forcing them apart. I think they could have done it, and it sounds a heck of a lot more desireable to me than what Misty decreed for them. >And >since Van was a Herald, he couldn't have just tossed aside his duty >in favor of his personal desires. It wouldn't be in his nature. Not >to mention that Fandes probably wouldn't have let him do it anyway. I never said Van would toss aside his duty. I just don't think his duty was to die; I think that was a side effect of the way Misty chose to have him do the job. His duty was to defeat Leareth, which I think he could have done. His duty was to make Valdemar no longer reliant on Herald-Mages, so, had he lived, his duty would have been to withdraw. And his duty was to defend Valdemar through Sorrows, which I think he could have done and stayed alive while doing it. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 21:11:32 -0500 From: Korendil To: "Misty List" Subject: Brvaes Goes On Writing Spree In Rioting St.Pete (pun intended) Message-ID: <9611200217.AA26776-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> Heh. Here I am, a kid growing up in the '90s, listening to Pete, Paul, and Mary. THis is what parents who listen to oldies gets you. >What does Mornelithe mean? Evil that Returns, with implications of over a >long time. Why is he obsessed with gryphons? He remembers. Nice try, >though. I think Ma'ar is, as he goes insane, forgetting this. He knows he returns, but maybe he isn't sure HOW, exactly--or why. And he might be obsessed with the gryphons, but does he know WHY he hated them? Not to mention that as time goes on his magic seems to get less powerful and advanced, and he really doesn't remember what Valdemar is by Winds. I still hold that the creature who killed Savil was his crude attempt at a makaar. >But Yfandes' recharge light was blinking, because she had just fetched >Stefen >to the Border Post and herself back in as little time as Companionly >possible, >while Leareth still had a few spares still tapped into the circuits (ie: was >beeing fed by mages who were tapping *node* energy). You know, guys...we're taking this analogy a bit FAR;> Hehhe...can't you see TV commercials for magic batteries? "New Energizer Ma-Serves [cut down from Magic Resevoirs (sp?)] with a power meter right on them! Tell whether YOUR Ma-Serve is an "Adept" or a "Hedge-wizard"! They keep on going and going anf going--until you hit them with a board" >However, Talia probably wouldn't mind if Dirk went off every now and >then with another person, I mean, the Holderkin men had more than one wife. Couldn't that possibly make her even less clement to an affair? She seems to have pretty well repudiated her culture... >But if you're truly mad and have nothing better to do you can join the >off-list discussion group in The Lilac Fairy's woodland bower, which right >now is running about half playful fluff and half serious discussion of >fantasy books, films and music. But my Lady Lilac Fairy! You forgot to mention the fringe benefit of getting (In)Famous Heather Essays never to appear before the Mistylist! Not to mention even MORE Of my tithes to dafud git of dypeoes!;> Sigh...time to continue on this inane debate over Leareth... >Actually, doesn't it say in one of the Winds books that he jumped when a >body became damaged? It didn't have to be dying, just damaged. The spell >was set, but he could also trigger it, not completely unlike the way >Firesong could go visit the "hiding" place. His return was automated. But >I do think he could control the point at which he abandoned ship. I was saying that it was automated to counter your statement that he would forget how to jump if helost memories every time. I don't remember one way or the other over whether he could trigger it, but what does that have to do with him HAVING to jump from the Hiding Place? >Well, no, now that's another pet peeve. Regardless of where they are, they're far away. It depletes Savil for a day to keep such a gate open for only a few minutes at most. And they DO move, since the magic is alive and the Tayledras move around taming it...if after 700 years they had brought it back to where it was in LHM, what's to say that in another 700 (during which they had more experience) they couldn't bring it in even FURTHER? >I would think that he was at far less of a disadvantage in the Pelagir Hills >(wherever they are) than he was when he was on the far side of the Ice Wall >Mountains! Actually, not really...we hear a bit about Northern Barbarians attacking northern valdemaran settlements, no? BU do we hear anything except legends about tayledras? >There is a huge time gap between Leareth and Falconsbane. We don't know >about all of his incarnations (if any even) within that gap. I don't think >you can discount the possibility that he could have been at any of a number >of geographic locations in the roughly 600 years that pass between the >stories. He could have been pretty much anywhere, since Misty hasn't said >where he was. True. Shall we compromise, and say that the Dark Servants Lavan fought off were another edition of Ma'ar, coming from the south? >Yes. But the incarnations (if any) closer to Leareth would remember more >than Falconsbane did by this reasoning. I think the Ma'ar lifetime would be clearest. He was the most sane then, and he might have put some kind of biography in the Hiding Place. >That is assuming that all of Falconsbane's incarnations over the 600 years >in question were in the Dhorhisa area. I'm not convinced of that. He >obviously had some family that got around when it came to geographic >distribution, otherwise Learth would not have been stuck on the far side of >the Ice Wall Mountains. Ma'ar was FROM the northern barbarians. OTOH, he made sure to have lots of descendants in the south during the wars. The mage gift would, I think, be strongest in closer descendants, who would be in the south (saying he had a harem of somesort in his Palace might not be a far stretch)...so more incarnations there. >And there we part company because I think he could trigger it. By that I meant, as I said above, that the spell bringing him FROM the Hiding Place was a setspell. >Now, I didn't get that Learth had lots and lots of mages and shamans with >him. I got that he had four mages and an army of rather regular types. >Shamans do not grow on trees, and even in the empire Charliss himself could >only come up with, what was it, 30?, to draw on in this manner. I think you >are attributing far more power to Learth than he could have had at his >disposal. And he is the one who is said to have carved the Pass. The mages >didn't do it for him, nor do I remember the text saying that he used the >mages to carve the Pass. Oh? Really? An army, bent on taking over a country (and, iirc, the soldiers were coerced so it was more by numbers than anything else he planned to conquer), which is led by a mage--and he only has 4 other mages? I think not. If anything, someone gave a quote, chronologically AFTER Van killed the 4 mages, saying that Leareth was drawing magic from mages on the other side of the Pass. And different cultures would have different shamans...the northern barbarians, who are more primitive, might have many more shamans...unlike the eastern empire. And while he carved the pass, that doesn't mean he used himself. He took power from other mages, just as the badguy in MPromise did. In fact, wasn't that guy WORKING for Leareth? Lear prolly gave him the idea, imo. Leareth didn't have the mages carve the pass, nor did he use the mages--he used the mages' POWER. He sucked em dry. But he had a LOT of 'em. > Also, I do not think Vanyel was as depleted as >everyone else seems to think. That was no quick physical and emotional >recovery he made after that rape. I think we're talking about two or three >months at least (the time passage is slipped in almost slight of hand in a >couple of sentences, if I recall correctly), which I think is plenty of time >for his powers to recharge. Hmm..strange..I seem to recall something taking energy from Van after the kyree incident--oh YES! Those four MAGES! Van had just been through four bloody duels, Danya! Each of THOSE Mages had been fresh, while he was losing energy each time! I think we can bet those guys were Adepts (and if you trust Jody Lee, they hadn't gotten out of their X-Files aliens costumes yet either;>). So lessee...one man, with only nodes and his internal power battling 4 adepts with a whole army to supply power to them. Van wins those, yes--but then he has to fight Leareth, who Van says is a superior mage! >The British army was better than the American army in 1776, but who >won the war? To follow this analogy, then give Van two adepts superior to his power to drain on. Then give him deep knowledge of secret nodes in land he'd never been to before--and remember, the Forest was NOT part of Valdemar in 700. Then give him an enemy who underestimates him. But Van only had a partially drained Yfandes to draw on. He didn't know the lay (bad, bad pun) of the land. And he had an enemy who knew exactly how powerful he was and faced him with full power. >Unless he was convinced that where he was needed was in Sorrows. Danya, you're going for a happy ending. I can't blame you, Van DID deserve things. But that wasn't the idea--the idea was to show that magic is just as unfair and realistic as anything else. LHM wasn't about having Van live happily ever after. In the case it was, then fine. HAVE him kill Leareth. LHM was about fleshing out an epic, legendary moment in Valdemaran history--recall, all the stuff about valdemar losing magic was already set with the Herald trilogy by the time LHM came out. The ending was planned from the beginning. >Oh, and can someone please tell me about DragonCon: such as when, where, >and how much? I'd like to meet all of y'all, but for now I'm ignorant of >everything. Please enlighten me. Atlanta. Last three days in June and July 1st, iirc. 35 bucks until..sometime. Argh. someone will post the url. >I do agree with whoever said that ML dealt Stefan a pretty shitty lot - >life must have stretched out before him at times - and knowing that it's all >going to end happily is one thing, getting there is another. He was awful >young when Van popped his cloggs, And I agree with whoever it was who said that maybe it was paying back Lendel for the pain he caused Vanyel. >Just be >grateful you don't have to read it a book every 9 months or so, like I did >- waiting for each part to appear at the publishers whim. That was the first Misty I had to suffer through--when I started reading, Fate had just come out in pb--my mom almost made me wait to get WoC until it came out in pb too..thank the gods she didn't...those lucky, lucky people who start now with all of Arrows and LHM and Winds and V&H and BTS and Gryphon and Storms out... >If Van's spell utilized the Companions or the Vrondi to enforce it, I >might. Does Misty actually say? SHe does't say, I think...but imo, it's the companions. THey can definitely coerce their chosen and make them forget things (wosshername...Caryo..forcing Sel to let El go; rolan making talia forget 'bout choosing and gwena) >ObMisty: What is the real coloring of a Healer Adept's aura? In MPrice and >MPromise they are described as green-gold and blue-green respectively, IIRC. Actually, those are the personal auras of Moondance and Starwind--I think the green-gold is Moondance. Woohoo! New Rush song! radio rules;> ~half the world waits/ while half the gets on with it anyway~ gotta get trace of fire, or wtf it's called... >The story Talia's reading is simply the legend. Danya, recall: legends take more than 700 years of documented history to get messed up. Velgarth is NOT Earth. They have these records--they still have books from the Empire 1400 years after breaking away! >The >way things stand, Stef's not the only one getting screwed: spirit or no >spirit, Van spends those same sixty plus years alone except for Yfandes. >You can say "divine retribution" against Stef if you want (I don't think he >deserved it), but what did Vanyel do to earn that kind of a "reward" for >"services rendered" (I know _he_ didn't deserve that!)? Van gets to hang >out in spirit form in Sorrows for sixty years knowing that his lover is >lonely to the point of wanting to commit suicide, and Van can't go to him or >(after the initial encounter) manifest physically for him or anything? I'm >sorry, but that sucks. For the past, oh...prolly 20 years Van's constantly been either battling demons from the five hells at border wars or taking the jobs of MO, King, Envoy, Guardian, and head of the Heraldic Circle. Or with his family. You pick which is worse;> He's just suffered the loss of Savil and close friends. He's finally gotten to avenge all these horrible deaths, including, in part, that of Lendel. And being alone "except for Yfandes" isn't nothing, you know. Yfandes was, along with Savil and Stef and the Hwakbrothers, one of his dearest friends. He's still serving his country and his gods, but he's been given a break. A VERY well deserved one. No-one's going to him for help or counsel. He can relax. He might be lonely, yes, but remember that he knows very well that eventually his ashke WILL be there with him. He has hope, he's got a friend with him so forget about the lonely thing, and he's not feeling guilty about ignoring Valedmar. And Stefen wasn't at the point of suicide after Van told him about the deal. >I didn't say have only nice things happen. Living is tough, and Van and >Stef couldn't very well have settled down in a cozy cottage with a white >picket fence and never have anything worse than an occasional nightmare >again. But I do think there was an alternative that would not have involved >forcing the characters into another sixty years of complete separation after >they had just gone through twenty years of complete separation (which makes >Van thirty-six, btw) and had a few months (maybe a year?) together, with >only a handful of happy days since most of the time was spent with Van >recovering from being raped. I would have been just as irritated if Dirk >had Fetched Talia out of Hardorn only to have her die in his arms. That >would have been a powerful, heart-wrenching scene, but I'm very glad Misty >did not write that plot that way! Danya! LHM was set out to be a tragedy FROM BEFORE IT WAS WRITTEN! As of AotQ, we know he dies saving the country. Misty tells us the story, though, and does a DAMNED fine job at it. The fact that Van and Stef even got together is spirit showed a "happy ending". Misty could very well of had Stef die from the argonel and have Van mourn his loss for the next 700 or so years. But she gave us a happy ending. DOn't you get it? It HAD to be a tragedy. It was set up that way. Yet she worked in the best possible losing scenario possible: Valdemar is safe. The dangerous HM dependence is gone. Van is still around and is with Stef. Yes, this is NOT a happy ending. Because Van died. But she worked around that. LHM was meant to give the "powerful, heat-wrenching scene" that Arrows didn't. Arrows was a happy ending story. So was Winds and Wars, and, in part, Storms. LHM is the odd-ball, and meant very well to be. It's the legendary story of how Vanyel, Last Herald-Mage of Valdemar, sacrificed himself for his country's good. Having it be about Vanyel, Herald-Mage of Valdemar, who fought off the Dark Servants and Leareth and then lived happily ever after teaching the remaining Mages with his ashke would be a nice story, but not the one Misty wanted to tell. >Um, I AM looking at the map in _Magic's Price_ (yes, you folks actually got >me to dig out the books), and the only Pelagir Hills I see are North of Lake >Evendim. K'Treva Vale and k'Sheyna Vale are also North of Lake Evendim, >with k'Vala Vale and k'Chona Vale South, near the border of Rethwellan. >That does not put the Vales anywhere near the Dhorisha Plains. The Vales move, Danya. In 700 years, they moved quite a bit. As such, the Peligirs moved quite a bit. And what whoever said was just that: there were peligirs north of lake evendim. > Half the time >I felt that Van was a sniveling, ungrateful, self-absorbed, wimp! After >all, how many people get the chance at not one but two lifebonds? Darn >near anyone else that lost their lifebond would be doomed to stumble >through the rest of life without that special bond. UM...because most people who are lifebound aren't as powerful as Van was, and as deserving of another lifebond? He was forcibly kept alive--left to himself he would have died. As would anyone else who lost their lifebound. > OBMisty: Does anyone know of any current or planned stories about Iftel >(? I think that's the country, the one that the deity doesn't allow >intrusion beyond the boarder)? I think the place would be fascinating! Read more. >A thought just struck (ouch). How could Falconsbane think of taking >someone over who was not of his blood? Could he jump to anyone when he >was alive? I wouldn't be surprised..iirc, the relation part was to make sure he got a powerful mage...otherwise it would include way to wide a range.. >Textevd Request: In MPromise, Princess Tashira's Companion is named >Leshya (Yfandes' words on pg. 268, para. 10, thereabouts). Now, isn't >this also the name of the lost Shin'a'in clan (k'Leshya)? I can't seem to >find in anywhere. Anyone? Leshya is the Kaled'a'in word for "ghost"...it's the lost Kaled'a'in tribe, not shin'a'in.. >>It seems that Misty has lost her penchant for making a good bad character. > >What makes you think she ever had one? Storm Breaking, maybe? >IMO he doesn't count at all 'cause it's Ma'ar all over and _that_ was a >shallow character. Offhand I don't even remember _why_ he hated the >gryphons and everybody else. So -IMO again- all his later incarnations >can only be as shallow. Ma'ar wasn't shallow. We just didn't get to know him very well. He got pregressively insane as the lifves went by. He hated gryphons since they were Urtho's. And Misty doesn't do good insanity (Hadenlith. 'nuf said.) >Jerry said: >>Sometimes a good story has to do nasty things to characters we like; >>it may not be what we'd *want* to have happen to them, but stories >>where only nice things happen are likely to be pretty boring... VERY well said, Jerry >YESYESYESYESYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's part of what makes MPrice so >good. Van dies, yeah, but he gets to keep doing his "job". Stef has >to live untold years without Van, yeah, but they get to live happily >ever after for SIX HUNDRED SOME YEARS!!!! Right. Danya, I think 700 years negates 80 years of loneliness (20 for van, 60 for stef--wait..60? Law of Threefold Return!!!!! OK, I don't know much abou wicca..but..um..this is a pretty mathematically correct exmaple of it, isn't it, Ken Karma Master?;> >I have to say that for someone who used the excuse that she was too busy >to bother with braiding and other aspects of List Etiquette when she first >joined the list, Danya seems to have plenty of time now. 11 messages >today on the question of Van's death. I was gonna comment on that, ken...but you did better;> whole email was good. Not that I expect anything less from you;> exCEPT....you used "you!" what about the "thee/thou" thingy?;P > Personally, I would have shot Pat Tobin myself, although we may be >diong this person a discredit since we all know that Misty doens't seem to >be very good with time-line continuity. Ahem...I...called...oh gods this pun is bad...first shots;> awhile ago. August or so;> > All the Talaydres Heartstones >serves the same type purposes, to draw in all the magic around so that >it can be recycled safely. Sort of a nuclear storage site. Right, and the Tayledras also have a monopoly, since no-one else knows how to make 'em... > Falconsbane takes over the body and >he doesn't even bother to oust the former occupant, much less >clean up the personallities, so those bits of foreign personallity >would continue to cling, slowly driving him insane as he tried to >remember if something was his memory or someone elses. Actually, he does destroy personality. An'desha, unlike the other original body claimants, didn't fight. He hid. He survived. Run away to fight again another day. Oh my gods. I finished. This is my longest braid in ages. I'm tired now;> This thing took me around 90 minutes to do, I think. Gotta check how big it is... -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 965 *********************************