MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 966 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Braid (sort of): Vanyel by Shannon 2) Re: Braid: Clan/Music/Marriage/Burning Water/The Pass by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 3) Stefen (Karma?) by singer-+AT+-iglobal.net 4) Re: Van's death by mishi 5) Re: Stefen (Karma?) by dsarik-+AT+-po-box.mcgill.ca 6) Fluff: The Naming of Names! by Ken Hyde 7) Same old by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 8) Re: Brvaes Goes On Writing Spree In Rioting St.Pete (pun intended) by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 9) yes another braid :) by Renee Mic Markowicz 10) Re: Van's final strike by erikaplajer-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer) 11) Re: Fluff: The Naming of Names! by Korendil 12) Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya by Renee Mic Markowicz 13) blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah blah by Jefferson or Rain 14) Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya by DawnRain 15) Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:28:58 -0800 From: Shannon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid (sort of): Vanyel Message-ID: <3292A52A.570E-+AT+-ix.netcom.com> Van could have lived and hid himself away in the Forest, yes. But: 1) To do so would have been horribly out of character, moreso than not thinking to collapse the walls of the pass. To sit around and watch bad things happen that he knows he could have prevented, etc, just wouldn't be Vanyel. I don't think he could have done it, even if he'd tried. 2) I don't think he'd have been given the choice to stay and guard Sorrows had he lived and stayed there, abandoning his duties as a Herald. 3) I don't know that I believe the plan to have Stef sway the Bardic Circle, and then the rest of Valdemar on the subject of Herald Mages and Heralds, would have happened if he'd lived. Van knew the problem was there, but he didn't really seem to be able to think much about it what with everything else happening. Thus, even if Vanyel was given his choice, Stef wouldn't, because he wouldn't have earned it. 4) Stef is *not* a Herald. Would he have been willing to pretend Van was dead, live without him most of the time, even knowing that Van was really alive? I don't think so. As good as he was, he was more selfish than that. Anyone would be, except maybe a Herald. 5) Van *chose* his fate. He chose to become part of Sorrows. Granted, he probably didn't expect to be there so long, but he knew when he made the choice he'd be alone until Stef completed his task. My main argument, though, is still that Van just wouldn't pretend to be dead. It wasn't in him to throw his responsibilities to the wind. Eleonora says: >I don't completely agree. Imagine the scenario if Van had not died. He was >young (or at least relatively young -certainly no more than 40 and probably >no older than 35, unless I've got my timelines wrong). If Leareth had not >died Van would have been for some time THE Herald-Mage, but pretty soon kids >with the potential would have cropped up. The Companions themselves would >probably have gone to greater lenghts to find those or to 'import them' form >the neighboring kingdoms. So, assuming nothing disastrous happened, and >supposing Van was not killed in the meantime, after about 15 years at the >most, the ranks of Herald Mages woudl have been if not complete, at least >not so diminished. Um, I'm not sure what you mean. My point was that with Herald Mages around, no one would be forced to realize that Heralds were just as effective. Van's death accomplished this, because there were no more Herald Mages. And Cennydd says: >Misty obviously felt that there was no good reason for concocting >a sleight of hand to allow Van to live while giving everyone the >impression he had died. I agree with her. Van's survival would not have >accomplished anything except to completely eviscerate the trilogy of any >meaning or pathos. Frankly, I have always thought that Van's death was >Misty's great shining moment of true writing genius. She did not opt for >some authorial sleight of hand to allow everyone a nice "feel good" ending >where the good guy wins and lives happily ever after. I must agree. No one wanted Van to die. All I could think when I first read it was "it's not fair!" (I hadn't read AoftQ yet). It was a brilliant move, looking back. Brutal, heartbreaking, and real. Shannon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:36:29 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: Clan/Music/Marriage/Burning Water/The Pass Message-ID: <199611200236.SAA25862-+AT+-latimes.com> At 01:28 AM 11/20/96 GMT, Ken Hyde wrote: >On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Kerry wrote: > >> I don't think it would be relatively minor, as I said earlier. Those >> cliffs were -fused- rock. Note also, that Mages throw round energy >> bolts, effectively - they're not the best thing for bringing down rock >> walls. > >I tend to agree with this. After all, it really doesn't take *that* much >to protect from even a nuclear bomb. American missile silos are shielded >so that anything short of a direct hit will leave the missiles undamaged >and able to launch, for example. And the amount of concrete used in >reinforcing them is surprisingly small, given how powerful and destructive >we tend to think nuclear weapons are. I think that several feet of fused >rock and earth (particularly if the rock is basalt or granite as it seems >to have been) is going to require something more directed than a blast of >energy. After all, bomb-type blasts aren't really that powerful >in terms of how much of their destructive force they bring to bear on a >particular area. Perhaps, with a little time and a lot of power, the >walls could have been undercut using something along the lines of a >magical laser, but I don't think any amount of blast energy could have >brought down the pass walls without the undercutting. Actually, I don't see a description that the walls were *fused* rock. I see that the stone on the ground is "polished black and shiny" AFTER Van calls down the Final Strike. But before that the walls are said to look as if a knife sliced them for ten man-heights from the floor down and above that they are completely natural--with notable rock slides. The walls seem to be made out of the same stuff as the floor of the Pass. (The old Pass is said to be above this one, so the new Pass is _not_ an enlargement of the old one.) And Vanyel is able to "explode" the floor (not cause an explosion on the floor, but to actually "explode" the floor) with something as common as a lightning bolt--and he has a ton of storm clouds to work with. He had everything he needed, with very little power required, to "explode" the base of the walls, cause an avalanche and seal the Pass. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:36:38 -0600 From: singer-+AT+-iglobal.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Stefen (Karma?) Message-ID: >Again from Lightstorm:> Did anyone stop to think that maybe this is the Gods' >>way of evening the score between Van and 'Lendel a bit? > >Big time Karma at play here IMHO. Yes, I'd always thought this was the case. >Tylendel wronged Van in a way when he killed himself; what better way for the >reincarnated spirit to really understand and atone for what he did in the past >life by living through something similar himself in the next one? I can see the reasoning behind this, but it still bothers me a little. Stef was Tylendel reincarnated; ie. he shared Lendel's spirit. But he was *not* (entirely, at any rate) Tylendel. He had his own memories, his own experience, his own personality. He was Stefen. And to me, punishing Stefen for what Tylendel had done by taking Vanyel away from Stef is cruel. It is, if you'll forgive me, punishing a child for the crimes of her parents, or other relatives. *Stefen* had done nothing wrong. Stefen had loved Vanyel with all his soul, and done everything he could for Van (ohhh, familiarity!) in the time they had together. I imagine that Tylendel "suffered" for what he had done to Vanyel and had tremmendous regrets, whether or not the God(ess) punished him. It may be, as many have said, that Tylendel owed something to Vanyel. But that debt was Lendel's. We can't confuse that with Stefen. (I'm sure someone will think "but Stefen *was* what Lendel gave to Vanyel". Stay with me, listsibs. :) I am trying to address this in the abstract; the feelings behind what I am saying matter a lot more than the words). Re: Auras- Moondance (the Healer) was green gold. Starwind was blue-green. Firesong is the only other Healing Adept we have met, and his aura is never mentioned. I don't know if all Tale'edras Healing Adepts have Moondance's green gold aura, but it would make sense to me if they did. The colors....the energy.....the land..... Forgive my my plunge into mysticism. Some things are too profound for words. This is how I feel about Vanyel, and Stefen (Somewhat by extension, but also in his own right). Stefen earned his place in the Forest, and he got a lousy break (words cannot express that adequatly) in life. But he deserved every good thing that came his way. Go Gently, Tresta %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Tresta shena Jor'ethan "Love must live free." Healer to horses -Shin'a'in Teaching OAM %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "To be tired of horses is to be tired of life; horses are a gift to us." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:09:40 -0500 From: mishi To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death Message-ID: <32927674.5B88-+AT+-prolog.net> (snip, snip ,snip a lot of stuff that I don't need) Danya, I'm not critizing here so don't get upset. I think the fact the Vanyel died is quite clear. He returned as a spirit to stop Stef from committing suicide. I must admit that I would have prefer that Vanyel not die at all, but I don't think I would have cared for the story at all if Vanyel had lived. If Learth was so easy to stop then I don't think that Vanyel had to go through all that trouble. It would have been too much like Misty saying - "gee I can't kill Vanyel off noone would want to read anymore of my books." I for one believed from Magic's Pawn that Vanyel was not destined to live. I especially believed that when Vanyel started having the ice dream again. Maybe Vanyel could have done something else but I think that with the weight of the dream he didn't think that anything else was possible. Most of what you have been saying is Misty should have done this and not this. Granted i don't like it but htat's the way it was written. Love, luck and lollipops, Mishi, Goddess of Hyperness and Overbubbliness, Lady of the Pink Wand ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 22:43:42 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-po-box.mcgill.ca To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Stefen (Karma?) Message-ID: <199611200353.WAA20808-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Tresta wrote: >I can see the reasoning behind this, but it still bothers me a little. >Stef was Tylendel reincarnated; ie. he shared Lendel's spirit. But he was >*not* (entirely, at any rate) Tylendel. He had his own memories, his own >experience, his own personality. He was Stefen. And to me, punishing >Stefen for what Tylendel had done by taking Vanyel away from Stef is cruel. >It is, if you'll forgive me, punishing a child for the crimes of her >parents, or other relatives. It seems to me that a lot of people are taking punishment as a bad thing. Sad to say, those are it's connotations in the English language. How would you feel about it if we called it retribution? naah... repayment? unh-unh... this is karmic, which (as far as I know) doesn't really have an equivalent in english that doesn't sound like New Age (not that that's bad, just overhyped and overstereotyped). Cennydd, help me out here? sorry i didn't braid. sheep. love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:00:37 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Fluff: The Naming of Names! Message-ID: Oyez, oyez, all Lords and Ladies of the list! Gather here in grand estate for the Naming of the newest members of the Pantheon of the New Gods. Etitameh regit, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Hematite Tigers. As thy demesne, thou hast rule over all inaminate felines. In recognition of thy new rank, I present to thee a set of white nephrite jade and green jadeite feline chess pieces to serve as thy court. Each pawn is a cunningly crafted representation of a breed of domestic cat. The rooks are exquisitely detailed snow-leopards, each perched on a rocky pinnacle. The knights are cheetahs, ready to lend their speed, loyalty and grace to thy service. The bishops are Egyptian Serval cats. And finally, the king and queen are matched pairs of lions and lionesses. May they serve thee always. Mel the Redcap, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Supernaturally Scary Socks (not digests!). As thy demesne, thou hast rule over all dangerous and occult fuzzy footware. In recognition of thy new rank, I present to thee the Ancient and Mysterious Argyles of Armeggedon. These most puissant of socks were the downfall of a thousands empires throughout the multiverse. Guard them well, lest their fell powers bring an end to the civilization of this world. BTW, they are also quite useful on cold nights for keeping thy toes warm. Vix, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Water. As thy demesne, thou hast rule over all the aspects of water in its free and unbound state. In recognition of thy new rank, I present thee with a haiku: leaping forth, the source flows through riverine cascades to dance on the waves May this verse bring the joy and fill thy heart with the music of falling waters of the world. Elyse, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of the Lost and Forgotten. Thou hast rule over all that has strayed from its proper place in the world or in the mind. In recognition of thy new rank, I had acquired a truly lovely gift for thee, but I seem to have misplaced it, and I can't for the life of me remember what it looked like. Julia, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Fields and Fens. Thou hast rule over all the wetlands and wild places where small creatures gather to live out their free and untrammeled lives. In recognition of thy new rank, I present thee with a delicate cut-crystal vase, bound with gold wild clematis vine and silver wild grape vine. This vase will always be full of the choicest birdseed and other tantalizing treats for the winged children of thy fields. To accompany this gift, I also present thee with a sword of burnished black-steel, its blade a cold flame of retribution carved all about with platinum chased runes of darkest portent, spelling doom to all who would transgress against the sanctity and purity of thy wild fens. Use these gifts well to nurture and defend thy chosen heart-children. Lady Windsong, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Peace. For thy demesne, thou hast rule over all that brings calm and tranquility. For thy gift, in recognition of thy truest calling, I give thee a simple thing: a pure and perfect dewdrop, captured in the morning of creation and holding within its heart the secret, quiet stillness of a crystalline web in the dawn sunlight. Mayest thou go placidly amidst the noise and the haste and rememberest what peace there may be in silence. Lady Wintersong, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Dignity. Thou hast rule over all that is elegant and serene and untroubled in the face of rudeness and attack. In recognition of thy new rank, I gift thee with a illuminated manuscript copy of Miss Manner's Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, bound in sumptous silk brocade in a genteel and refined pattern of wine on black and clasped and sealed with garnets and smoky topaz in a setting of antique gold. Dax, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Elves. For thy demesne, I give into thy care all of the realms Underhill and Outremer, excepting only the Bower, which is the realm of the Lilac Fairy. As a final, further codicil, I remind thee that Korendil, the God of Night and All Things Nocturnal is forever removed from thy demesne by virtue of his own divinity. In recognition of thy new rank, I give thee three gifts of Faerie: a painting of the Great Cycle by Kathana e'Marish-Chala of the House of the Dragon (the Faerie of Draghaera), a vision glass filled with the light of Daniloth and singing with the echos of Na-Brendal's voice giving tongue to the Lament for the Fallen (The Faerie of Fionavar), and finally, a small silver coffer, filled with a fine grey dust and containing a single seed. Foxfire, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of God of Obstinate Teenagers. For thy demesne, thou hast guardianship over all beings between the ages of thirteen and nineteen who are unwilling to compromise themselves and do what they do not wish. In recognition of thy new rank, I grant thee a dais of pure white marble surmounted by a pair of carved jade pillars. Between the pillars are two indentations the exact size and shape to fit thy feet, while on the pillars are handholds that exactly fit thy hands. When thou art firmly enstanced in the footprints and graspest the pillars, no force can server to move thee against thy will. Firemist, by the grace of the Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, I hereby Name thee to the title of Goddess of Made-From-Scratch Food. For thy demesne, thou hast rule over all aspects of cooking and the culinary arts. In recognition of thy new rank, I give thee a beautifully bound, waterproof, spillproof, and flame resistant cookbook, the pages of which show a constantly changing collection of recipes, each page enriched with jewel-toned illuminations and with the recipes written in a perfectly leg ible, yet artistic calligraphic hand. To accompany this book, is a large basket woven from a single seemingly endless grape vine, its interior finished with rich silk velvet. Every time the lid of the basket is raised contents change to provide the exact necessary raw ingredients necessary for the various recipes contained in the Cookbook. Lorraine, who would be Goddess of Domesticity and Laundry, thou wert under a dark cloud of doom, for thy transgressions against the grace of the Lady Thessaly. However, thy aspirant has interceded and taken upon herself the blame for the transgression. However, it is never-the-less true that thou has still transgressed. In consideration of all factors, and weighing in my responsibility to the Lady Thessa, I grant thee the title you seek. Thy demesne shall be all that is part of the chores of domesticity, excepting cooking which is the province of the Goddess Rozana and Dust Bunnies which are the province of Lady Sylver Dove. However, for the turning of this cycle* thou shalt be numbered amongst the fallen, dwelling upon the earth in a form that will not bear the full power of thy aspect and attributes. When the cycle turns, thou shalt be able to join the Hosts of Heaven in the Pantheon of New Gods. *this cycle ends at midnight on the 30th of November. Hades, who would be God of Farfetched Theories and Miscontrued Ideas. Thou hast transgressed against the Goddess of Nomenclature. Until such time as thou acknowledgest thy error, as the Avatar of Nomeclature, I shall be unable to fulfill thy petition. After all, the honor of the Lady Thessa must be upheld. Wintershard, thou hast been a Bad boy, threatening my Priestess with bad weather, etc. It seems to Me, therefore appropriate that thou remainest a Demon, at least until Lady Thessa Names you herself. After all, what is a Demon but a God who doesn't play by the rules. And there you have them. Lets have a nice round of applause for all of the fortunate. Drinks and refreshments will be served in the Great Hall immediately following the convocation. Thank you for your attention. =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 22:37:01 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Same old Message-ID: <199611200347.WAA20081-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" wrote: >Actually, I don't see a description that the walls were *fused* rock. I see >that the stone on the ground is "polished black and shiny" AFTER Van calls >down the Final Strike. But before that the walls are said to look as if a >knife sliced them for ten man-heights from the floor down and above that >they are completely natural--with notable rock slides. The walls seem to be >made out of the same stuff as the floor of the Pass. (The old Pass is said >to be above this one, so the new Pass is _not_ an enlargement of the old >one.) And Vanyel is able to "explode" the floor (not cause an explosion on >the floor, but to actually "explode" the floor) with something as common as >a lightning bolt--and he has a ton of storm clouds to work with. He had >everything he needed, with very little power required, to "explode" the base >of the walls, cause an avalanche and seal the Pass. If you're thinking that the explosions are the strength of nuclear weapons, I have a suggestion. The atomic bombs dropped in Japan mostly destroyed carbon-based stuff, but the actual structure wasn't too affected. Granted, that was atomic, and we're now talking nuclear, but still. If nuclear could do that much, why would the U.S. Government do more than one underground test? After the first one, they would be scared shitless of triggering natural disasters. I'm sorry this is snippy, but I think these arguments have been going on long enough. love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 22:19:18 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Brvaes Goes On Writing Spree In Rioting St.Pete (pun intended) Message-ID: <199611200343.WAA19614-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Korendil wrote (without quoting! ): >Heh. Here I am, a kid growing up in the '90s, listening to Pete, Paul, >and Mary. THis is what parents who listen to oldies gets you. It's still good stuff. >>However, Talia probably wouldn't mind if Dirk went off every now and >>then with another person, I mean, the Holderkin men had more than one wife. > >Couldn't that possibly make her even less clement to an affair? She seems >to have pretty well repudiated her culture... True, but if you've grown up with polygamy, you won't think of it as unnatural. I grew up in Saudi Arabia in a town full of quasi-fundamentalist Christians (repression causing them to cling more strongly and all), and I don't find the idea of monogamy to be all-encompasing. Actually, both Islam and Christianity are very anti-adultery. In Saudi Arabia, it's 50 lashes for women and more lashes plus a stoning for men who are caught commiting adultery. My point? Oh, yeah. I think the worst thing about adultery is the betrayal of trust. HOWEVER, this assumes that there was an agreement to be monogamous. If there was no such binding agreement, and both parties (well, all three, or four, or however many there are) wouldn't mind some polyamory. >>If Van's spell utilized the Companions or the Vrondi to enforce it, I >>might. Does Misty actually say? > >SHe does't say, I think...but imo, it's the companions. THey can >definitely coerce their chosen and make them forget things >(wosshername...Caryo..forcing Sel to let El go; rolan making talia forget >'bout choosing and gwena) Yeah, that's what I thought, BUT "ordinary" non-Heralds seem to suffer from the same affliction. That's why there's no literature about anything but ancient magic, and what there was predated the compulsion. Nobody can think about it long enough to write a thesis -- Elspeth had problems just writing up brief notes. It also affects all the Bards -- I'm including all their songs under the heading of "literature." >Danya, recall: legends take more than 700 years of documented history to >get messed up. Velgarth is NOT Earth. They have these records--they still >have books from the Empire 1400 years after breaking away! Must. Resist. Thread. About. Talia and. Writing one's. Self into. Books. AAAAAAaaaaagggghhhhh!!!!! Somebody stop me before I get sucked into it, please! >> All the Talaydres Heartstones >>serves the same type purposes, to draw in all the magic around so that >>it can be recycled safely. Sort of a nuclear storage site. > >Right, and the Tayledras also have a monopoly, since no-one else knows >how to make 'em... Except Vanyel. But he learned from the Tayledras. Somebody was pointing out, as evidence of his magical skill with spells as opposed to battle magic, his creating the web. Remember, though, that he was consulting the Tayledras with that one, and bouncing it off his old friends to make sure it would work and to get much needed feedback. >Oh my gods. I finished. This is my longest braid in ages. I'm tired now;> >This thing took me around 90 minutes to do, I think. Gotta check how big >it is... Does 22228 bytes sound about right? IIRC, it's the largest braid I've seen since joining this list. It's even bigger than my 10 page (double-spaced) paper on Slave Music which took me weeks to write (well, actually, from 20:00 through to 11:00 the day it was due with a one hour pause for sleep, if you really must know the truth). But I didn't quote as much! And if I add my bibliography and appendix, it's a lot longer. Yeah, that's it! I don't feel so bad anymore. love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:06:13 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: yes another braid :) Message-ID: Heyla! Well, here goes: I was a little trigger-happy on the delete key and I lost a lot of the attributions for these snippets. I stuck 'em in where I had 'em, sorry if I lost 'em. :) >> Heyla baaaaybeh! <*G*> > >Er, I hate to point this out, ma chere, but that was the Big Bopper, not >Elvis. It was the opening of "Chantilly Lace." Yipes! My bad! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tresta said: >Ok. Now that we've determined that Stef and Vanyel probably are, ah, >together in the Forest, how do they get a little privacy? Do they just >get >a certain *look*, and 'Fandes fades into the trees? Surely she wouldn't >eavesdrop. But really, could you do it with your Companion watching? >Ewwwww! No Way!! My guess is that it worked the same way it did when they were alive. I mean, Sorrows is a pretty big place and I assume that 'Fandes maybe had access to the Havens (or somewhere else) that she could go to if it suddenly became a "three's a crowd" situation. :) Also, she and Van were very closely bonded together. I would think that she would know when something of that nature was going to happen and, uh, beat a strategic retreat? :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm not really sure who wrote this (sorry!): >Since I collect Christmas carols, I am always interested in analogs. BTW, >for any non-Christians on this list, are there analogous corpora of songs >associated with a particular religious feast in your tradition? For example, >are there Channukah carols? Ramadan songs? etc. Well, I'm Jewish and we don't have any Chanukah carols, as it were, but there are some songs about Chanukah (storytelling type) and there are some that are just traditionally sung on Chanukah. Ie.- I Have A Little Dreidel :) I have a little dreidel I made it out of clay And when it's dry and ready Oh dreidel I shall play. Chorus: Oh dreidel, dreidel, dreidel I made it out of clay And when it's dry and ready Oh dreidel I shall play. It has a lovely body With legs so short and thin And when it gets all dizzy It drops and then I win. [repeat Chorus] That's just one of the fun ones that little kids sing all the time. (There's another version about latkes {potato pancakes}) I have a little latke I made it out of clay And when I tried to eat it My tummy said, "Oy Vay!" *^_^* There are plenty of other songs that are considered traditional Chanukah songs as well. If you're really curious, let me know and I'll send you lyrics. Forgive me for going on, but as a sometime aspiring cantor, Jewish music really interests me. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Danya (I think) said: >It did. But actually, Van did not HAVE to die. He died because Misty's >outline said "Vanyel commits suicide." In actuality, Valdemar only needed >to think he was dead. He could have accomplished the same thing by hanging >out in a cabin in the Forest of Sorrows with Stef coming to visit him >whenever he could get away from Haven that he accomplished by getting his >spirit bound to the Forest. At least that way Stef would get SOME payoff >for all the loneliness and hard work. Stef reports Van's death in Haven, >there's not a single mage left who can gainsay him. Voila! Mission >accomplished, AND the hero gets to live (sort of) happily ever after. Actually, I don't think that this would have worked. I mean with Van, we're talking about the ultimate self-sacrificer here. He was willing to sacrifice almost anything to help king and country (Valdemar). He definately wouldn't be the type to take the easy way out and go live it up in Sorrows. If he _had_ survived the Leareth encounter, he probably would have gone back to Haven and continued on in his duties. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I wrote: > I just sincerely hope that they're happy with each other and >may they get "exactly what they deserve". recalls the connotations to this Shin'a'in proverb> Dyana responded: >>Please, Renee, please never wish that on someone. I have enough under age friends with babies. I've seen what these people go through, and yes, one might say that they get what they *deserve*. << Aiee. I'm sorry. I actually hadn't meant to imply that at all. What I meant was slightly more innocuous (sp?) than that. I wanted them to get what they deserve meaning each others company on a 24:7 basis. They're so eager to spend every waking moment together...I thought they should. She gets irritated with him after 12 hours. I was evilly chuckling while contemplating how long they would stay together if allowed to spend 24:7 with each other. I'm sorry if I gave people the wrong idea. I'm not _that_ vindictive. I wouldn't want to see her get pregnant. Actually, if anyone's been following the news out of the U. of D. about the baby that was killed (I've heard it was on national T.V.), I'd say that I wouldn't want any girl to get pregnant that didn't want to - for the baby's sake. This baby (that died) is the prime example of why. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE ORDER OF AMBER AND MARIGOLD ~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+- >*So,* all those of you who have been so supportive of My Cause in the >past, *please* support the Order of Amber and Marigold, or I'm going to >look pretty silly, being the only one out here spouting all this mushy >stuff. To our banner! Is a High Priestess allowed to join? If so, I humbly petition to be a Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold. Vanyel was my introduction to Misty and Velgarth. He also brought new friends into my life (through common reading interests) at a time when I was feeling rather deserted. I would be honored to be considered worthy enough to defend him and his honor against all attackers, not to mention write seriously mushy stuff about him and wave his banner. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Well, SL appears as whatever sex you get your kicks out of, right? BTW, >mini-poll: Who thinks SL was an aspect of the Star-Eyed, and who an >avatar? Definately an Avatar if anything. MPromise:"Lord," he[Vanyel] whispered, unable to muster enough coherent thought to say anthing more. "No, Vanyel," He [Shadow-Lover] said, shaking his head, denying Vanyel's assumption. "Not 'Lord'. Only a messanger, a servant. You mustn't kneel to me." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I know that most of these posts were a bit on the old side, but b/c of work (ugh - Reality) I have been unable to really respond to anything for a couple of days. I still have about a hundred messages in my Inbox (groan...). Ever your faithful servant, Mat, oh mine God of Procrastination. :) I can just imagine what things will be like when I get back after Thanksgiving break. 5 days without being able to check my mail. Oy vey! If only I could log onto the UDel system from at home... Renee (Hopeful petitioner to be) Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold ~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+-~-+AT+- flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I'm trying to find a polite way of saying 'drop University of Delaware |dead' and not having much luck." Pre-Veterinary student | -Vlad Taltos **High Priestess of |"Don't bother being polite. I died before the Procrastination** |Interregnum. Will you take the job?" Confused? Just Ask! | -Sethra Lavode http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:16:25 EST From: erikaplajer-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's final strike Message-ID: <19961119.220131.8039.1.ErikaPlajer-+AT+-juno.com> I have to speak about all this banter of Van's death being useless, and all the mistakes Misty made by not having him live. All I can say is, is that I don't think the ending would have been as good had he lived. I loved Van, I felt as if he was a very close friend of mine. I actually cried outright when reading the part where Stef finds Van's focus-stone. But had he lived, it would have totally ruined the story. It would just be another, 'Oh happy happy la, the hero wins and lives a good sweet life'. There are enough books about that do that. MPrice wakes you up and makes you realise that even fantasy can have bad endings at times. When the ending to MPrice came, I was in complete shock. And then I cried. And then I saw how good the ending was, how good the author was to make me feel so much out of one book's ending. I thanked the friend who loaned me the books repeatedly for not telling me how it ended. I would have felt cheated had I known. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 23:43:47 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: Fluff: The Naming of Names! Message-ID: <9611200449.AA00377-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> >And there you have them. Lets have a nice round of applause for all of >the fortunate. Drinks and refreshments will be served in the Great Hall >immediately following the convocation. Thank you for your attention. =) Congrats to the new Gods and Goddesses and Fallen Goddesses and Demons! Have fun;> ) :( Cen, will you reName me?;> Oh, yes...and you forgot to give Foxfire a caveat; I and any other teen-aged God(esse)s don't fall under her realm, do we? >Yeah, that's what I thought, BUT "ordinary" non-Heralds seem to suffer from >the same affliction. That's why there's no literature about anything but >ancient magic, and what there was predated the compulsion. Nobody can think >about it long enough to write a thesis -- Elspeth had problems just >writing up >brief notes. It also affects all the Bards -- I'm including all their songs >under the heading of "literature." Hmm...maybe the Web? The web contains the country, so it must in part contain the common peoples...so the Companions might use that? >Must. Resist. Thread. About. Talia and. Writing one's. Self into. >Books. AAAAAAaaaaagggghhhhh!!!!! Somebody stop me before I get sucked into >it, please! Wha'? I was carefully avoiding that, wasn't I? >Does 22228 bytes sound about right? whoah >IIRC, it's the largest braid I've seen >since joining this list. Hmm..is this a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? Hah! I would have needed an obmisty, but I put in the thing about the Web! Hah! Oh, yes, 2 things: 1: I'm making an HTML-ized version of my thoughts on the people on the covers of LHM...except it's gonna be too big for my allotment at my ISP:( I only get 1 meg, and since I wanna include the pictures...any kind soul willing to host? 2: I have NOT forgotten about the MoC--just trying to;> I'll get it started again 'round winter break, I think...so..people...DO YOURS! -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:45:09 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Sara A Youngblood wrote: > > Textevd Request: In MPromise, Princess Tashira's Companion is named > Leshya (Yfandes' words on pg. 268, para. 10, thereabouts). Now, isn't > this also the name of the lost Shin'a'in clan (k'Leshya)? I can't seem to > find in anywhere. Anyone? Sorry for not including this in my last braid, but... Yes. K'Leshya is the lost clan, but they're not Shin'a'in - they're Kaled'a'in. They and the gryphons were the only ones who ended up so far away after the Cataclysm occurred that they couldn't get back. The rest of the Kaled'a'in clans seperated (the Sundering of the Clans) and became the Shin'a'in and the Tayledras. In BG, "the Kaled'a'in clan k'Leshya, of all the Clans, the only one not named for a totemic animal, but called simply 'Spirit Clan'..." Hope that helped. :) Renee flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I'm trying to find a polite way of saying 'drop University of Delaware |dead' and not having much luck." Pre-Veterinary student | -Vlad Taltos **High Priestess of |"Don't bother being polite. I died before the Procrastination** |Interregnum. Will you take the job?" Confused? Just Ask! | -Sethra Lavode http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:57:11 -0800 From: Jefferson or Rain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah blah Message-ID: <3291D8D7.77DC-+AT+-earthlink.net> singer-+AT+-iglobal.net wrote: > > >Again from Lightstorm:> Did anyone stop to think that maybe this is the Gods'> >>way of evening the score between Van and 'Lendel a bit? > >> >Big time Karma at play here IMHO. You know, I don't think that the Gods are that petty and vindictive, to "even the score" unless someone is REALLY bad, like Ma'ar. Now, Ma'ar I could see some Divine Karmic Retribution happening. Tylendel was a scared, grieving half-insane youth when he died. I'd say the Gods would take into account his state of mind. He was given the opportunity to come back as Stefen and clear his negative karma. His young life as Stef was awful, we know this, but he rose above it and became someone admirable. I think that the Gods in Misty's universe give their people *free will*, and Stefen/Tylendel was given another lifetime to use that free will and make better choices. >>>It may be, as many have said, that Tylendel owed something to Vanyel. But that debt was Lendel's. We can't confuse that with Stefen.<<< I agree, but perhaps Lendel really wanted to make things right. He loved Vanyel. Perhaps he chose with both eyes open, knowing what might happen. So, Danya said: >The story Talia's reading is simply the legend. And then Korendil said: >>>Danya, recall: legends take more than 700 years of documented history to get messed up. Velgarth is NOT Earth. They have these records--they still have books from the Empire 1400 years after breaking away!<<< The book Talia is reading in AotQ is absolutely not correct. For one, there is another Herald with them, and another Companion who carries Stefan away, and they go to Haven, not the Guard post. So, while they've got well-documented histories, this version has obviously become romanticized up the wazoo. iirc, didn't anything regarding magic sortof get *garbled* after Van's death? I know that the old ballads about Sunsinger/Shadowdancer and Windrider Unchained survived intact. Does anyone know if the history regarding magic use from Van's time stayed the same, or did the Valdmarens *forget* it, like they forgot everything currently pertaining to magic? Perhaps that could account for the discrepancy in the tale? Korendil said: >>Leshya is the Kaled'a'in word for "ghost"...it's the lost Kaled'a'in tribe, not shin'a'in..<< Actually, Leshya means "spirit". I know, I know, picky picky picky - but there is a distinction between the spirit and a ghost. ;-> >Jerry said: >>Sometimes a good story has to do nasty things to characters we like; >>it may not be what we'd *want* to have happen to them, but stories >>where only nice things happen are likely to be pretty boring... Huzzah. Well spoken. Life is not all roses and sugar buns. Sometimes life is hard and sad and tragic things happen to really decent people. I love the fact that Vanyel gave his life to keep those decent, innocent people (and some of the not so decent ones) alive, free and happy. He wasn't perfect, but who is? Van was a very noble character. He could be a whining brat too, but sheesh, after all he did for Valdemar he deserved to whine. Savil even said so! If I'd been one of Misty's characters, I'd've been honored to comfort him while he indulged in a good whine. Okay, time to relenquish the PC to my HTML happy mate! peace, rainwood Lady of the Pink Wand Knight of the OAM and as of midnight on November 30th, High Priestess of Domesticity and Laundry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:38:57 -0700 From: DawnRain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya Message-ID: <32929971.5E3B-+AT+-geocities.com> Sara A Youngblood wrote: > Textevd Request: In MPromise, Princess Tashira's Companion is named > Leshya (Yfandes' words on pg. 268, para. 10, thereabouts). Now, isn't > this also the name of the lost Shin'a'in clan (k'Leshya)? I can't seem to > find in anywhere. Anyone? That was the "lost" Kaled'a'in clan, that Treyvan and Hydona were part of. "Leshya" is "spirit" in Kaled'a'in and Tayledras. In the clan, it was "Spirit Clan." For Tashir's Companion, Van and 'Fandes started off calling him Ghost because he acted like a spirit, and I guess it evolved into Leshya. I don't know if that's because he didn't give Tashir his name or if Tashir just didn't give anyone else Leshya's true name. I'm inclined to believe that they all just agreed to call him Leshya. Star ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:13:12 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel Message-ID: <199611200513.VAA28010-+AT+-latimes.com> At 02:50 AM 11/20/96 GMT, Shannon wrote: > > >Van could have lived and hid himself away in the Forest, yes. But: > >1) To do so would have been horribly out of character, moreso than not > thinking to collapse the walls of the pass. To sit around and watch > bad things happen that he knows he could have prevented, etc, just > wouldn't be Vanyel. I don't think he could have done it, even if > he'd tried. > But he would have been "sitting" right where the bad things were happening, and he would have been the one preventing them. I think this would have been totally IN character for him. He gets to protect Valdemar, spend at least part of each year with Stef and be something he's always wanted but never really had a chance to be in his life: just plain Van instead of Vanyel Demonsbane and all the other roles people keep forcing him to take on. He might even have gotten the chance to develop that Bardic Gift of his, maybe sending some of his songs back to the Circle under Stef's name ;->. >2) I don't think he'd have been given the choice to stay and guard > Sorrows had he lived and stayed there, abandoning his duties as > a Herald. What do you think are his duties as Herald? To protect Valdemar? He would be doing that if he stays in Sorrows and if he does not let Valdemar know there is still a living Herald Mage. What did he do that another Herald couldn't do? Isn't that the point? He spent a lot of time cooling his buns at court. He negotiated treaties, but ambassadors and other Heralds can easily handle any that are left to negotiate. Someone needs to be defending Sorrows, apparently, and Vanyel is the logical choice. Whether he is or is not dead, the net effect would be the same. Whenever he did actually die, Sorrows would still need a Guardian. Someone would have to be given the choice of defending it if it's normal defender was no longer going to be there. Can't think of anyone that would be even close competition for Vanyel on that point. He strikes me as the type who would be deeply bored in the Havens, and perish the thought of a Companion Vaniel! I think the deities would have still given him the choice. > >3) I don't know that I believe the plan to have Stef sway the Bardic > Circle, and then the rest of Valdemar on the subject of Herald Mages > and Heralds, would have happened if he'd lived. Van knew the problem > was there, but he didn't really seem to be able to think much about > it what with everything else happening. Thus, even if Vanyel was > given his choice, Stef wouldn't, because he wouldn't have earned it. > Ah, but he would have plenty of time to think about it when "everything else" was no longer happening. Stef would still fulfill his duty, earning his reward. As I said in another post, their positions would simply be reversed. Vanyel would be the "stay at home" and Stef would be the one who had to venture out into the world for long periods of time. >4) Stef is *not* a Herald. Would he have been willing to pretend > Van was dead, live without him most of the time, even knowing > that Van was really alive? I don't think so. As good as he was, he > was more selfish than that. Anyone would be, except maybe a >Herald. I think Stef was not a Herald simply because he had the Bardic Gift. Remember, Healers and Bards aren't Chosen because their talents are too valuable? But Stef _was_ a Herald as 'Lendel, and I don't think what made him a Herald in that life went away in the next one. I think if Van asked him to pretend and it meant a lot to Van that Stef would have done it. > >5) Van *chose* his fate. He chose to become part of Sorrows. Granted, > he probably didn't expect to be there so long, but he knew when he > made the choice he'd be alone until Stef completed his task. > Dead or alive, the choice is the same. If he'd lived, he might even have had a deity offer it to him if he didn't think about it himself. > >My main argument, though, is still that Van just wouldn't pretend to >be dead. It wasn't in him to throw his responsibilities to the wind. See, that's where our sticking point is. I see him as fulfilling his responsibilities _by_ pretending to be dead. > > >Um, I'm not sure what you mean. My point was that with Herald Mages >around, no one would be forced to realize that Heralds were just as >effective. Van's death accomplished this, because there were no more >Herald Mages. > The same thing would have been accomplished if he simply pretended to be dead. As far as anyone other than Stef would know, there were no more Herald Mages. Danya ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 966 *********************************