MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 967 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Order of Amber and Marigold by "Hth." 2) re: blah, blah, blah Ginger by singer-+AT+-iglobal.net 3) Re: Van's death by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 4) Re: blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah blah by bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu 5) Textevd as promised! by Melanie Harris 6) Re: Help (again..)/Anointing/Rediscovery/Irate Fluff/Almost Caught Up by ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) by Khenta Blaufalk 8) Burning Water / Cennyd / Lilac / Stef / Fluff. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 9) Re: Brvaes Goes On Writing Spree In Rioting St.Pete (pun by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 10) Re: yes another braid :) by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 11) Re: Van by lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) 12) almost on topic, homepage by Becky Anne Christensen 13) Re: Auras/etc. by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:54:16 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Order of Amber and Marigold Message-ID: <19NOV96.25817038.0098.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> See, Dan, you are missing the point. No, you cannot join the Order if "half the time" you think Vanyel was whiny and ungrateful. That is the whole point of the Order -- to defend him against such charges. Your name is not familiar to me, so I'm assuming you're new. We have had this conversation before, and I disagree strongly with your interpretation of his character. My position, presented on this list many times and with much text evidence, is that A) he rarely whined, B) he thought too little of his own needs, not too much, and C) it is unreasonable and cruel to expect that he will not continue to feel the pain of his lifebonded's death until they are reunited. I will argue any of these points to the death and beyond -- but in the interest of not boring the old folks on the list, I will not do so at this particular moment. Rifle through the archives of the last couple of months if you like; there is much information on the subject there. As for your knighthood, we come to point two.... *Anyone can put anything they like on their sigs.* Freedom of speech and all that. You can call yourselves the Guru of Yams if you like. But the official title for the Order of Amber and Marigold is Knight or Dame. We already have Ladies running about, and I don't know where that comes from. I guess it's...like a ladies' auxiliary or something. It is not official. Keep the title if you like, but it is not the correct form of address for one initiated into the OAM. The idea is to be a guardian, defender, and champion for one who cannot respond himself to voices raised falsely against him. I think the idea of knighthood (as distinct from knighthood as it was perhaps practiced historically) fits this well, and I personally don't see any need to water it down, making it sound like a social instead of a service position. But, as I said, call yourself what you want. And Dan, knight yourself if you feel like it, but the Knights of Democracy and Debate or whatever it was are not affiliated with the Order of Amber and Marigold, and therefore not my table, as the waitress in me would say. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:59:26 -0600 From: singer-+AT+-iglobal.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: blah, blah, blah Ginger Message-ID: On 11/19, Rainwood wote: >singer-+AT+-iglobal.net wrote: >> >> >Again from Lightstorm:> Did anyone stop to think that maybe this is the >>Gods'> >>way of evening the score between Van and 'Lendel a bit? >> >> >Big time Karma at play here IMHO. Healer Rainwood, I *must* redeem myself! :) I did not write the above; I was quoting a post that I was *responding* to.I do not think Tylendel deserved to be punished, and I definatly do not think the Gods and or Goddesses would ever be so petty. My whole post was that Stef was not Tylendel, and that the idea that Vanyel died to teach Stef (Tylendel)a lessen was really distressing and awful. I am a whole-hearted supporter of Tylendel; I happened to leave it out of my post, because I was talking about Stef. (And I dind't feel like being flamed). Just wanted to clear my name, Lady Rainwood. Pleae read my post again (the one called Stefen (Karma?) You might even like it. :) Go Gently, Tresta %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Tresta shena Jor'ethan "Love must live free." Healer to horses -Shin'a'in Teaching OAM %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "To be tired of horses is to be tired of life; horses are a gift to us." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 22:12:37 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death Message-ID: <199611200612.WAA28889-+AT+-latimes.com> At 03:21 AM 11/20/96 GMT, mishi wrote: >(snip, snip ,snip a lot of stuff that I don't need) > >I think the fact the Vanyel died is quite clear. I never said he didn't. I said that I thought his death was a contrived plot glitch, that the character would not have chosen to suicide, that the battle would never have reached that point because Vanyel could have won at an earlier point in the sequence. I know quite well that we are completely stuck with what Misty did. But I think it's a case of an author screwing a character unnecessarily. There was a completely viable alternative. >He returned as a spirit >to stop Stef from committing suicide. Agreed. I never argued that. That's all well beyond the point I'm arguing. Once what I see as the plotting mistake is made, there's not much that can be done about it. >I must admit that I would have >prefer that Vanyel not die at all, but I don't think I would have cared >for the story at all if Vanyel had lived. If Learth was so easy to stop >then I don't think that Vanyel had to go through all that trouble. Ma'ar was rather easy to stop, when you think about it: Gate in, drop a box at his feet, boom. Skan lived. Ancar and Falconsbane pose a bit more trouble, but they aren't tremendously difficult to take out in the end--and Elspeth, Firesong, and all the rest don't die. So did you not care for any of the rest of Valdemar books, where the villain dies and the hero lives? I don't understand why the suggestion that Van get to do what all the rest of Misty's heroes do would ruin the story. The fact that he did not for some inexplicable reason get the same chance as Skan or Firesong or even Karal for that matter is what _did_ ruin LHM for me. The problem with creating "Big Evil Bad Nasties" is that super-powerful characters are usually ridiculously easy for "the little guy" to stop. David goes up against Goliath: "Here; have a stone." Paris against Achilles; one arrow to the heel and "Nighty night." Bladr felled by a sprig of mistletoe. The list goes on and on and on. The pattern is a part of our combined cultural heritage going back through thousands of years of storytelling. The truly nasty villains are the ones who don't have any power to speak of or who aren't truly villains at all. > It >would have been too much like Misty saying - "gee I can't kill Vanyel >off noone would want to read anymore of my books." I for one believed >from Magic's Pawn that Vanyel was not destined to live. I especially >believed that when Vanyel started having the ice dream again. Maybe >Vanyel could have done something else but I think that with the weight >of the dream he didn't think that anything else was possible. And I would have liked it better if he could have overcome his fears and acted like the Herald-Mage he was supposed to be. >Most of >what you have been saying is Misty should have done this and not this. Yes. That's precisely what I'm saying. It was possible for Misty to have chosen another direction for the plot, one that I think would have met all the requirements for what she wanted to have happen but that did not require Van to do something stupid, to succumb to his fears, to die, and to leave Stef struggling along without him for 60+ years. Larry said in an interview to Queen's Own that _Magic's Price_ was the only MS he'd ever known about that went straight from the author's hardcopy to print without so much as a comma being changed. I gathered from the interview that he thought this might not have been the greatest thing in the world. I do not know what it was that he seemed to find unsatisfactory about the book. It could be something completely different than what makes the work unsatisfactory for me. I do know, however, is the cause of my dissatisfaction: the direction the plot takes in the last few pages of the trilogy. Misty has said that she works with plot growing out of character, but she has also said that she plotted out LHM with Larry first and then wrote it. I think that may have caused the problem that I have with this book, but she has also had plotting trouble in other books. And, in this case, I think killing off Vanyel was a mistake. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:31:11 -0500 (EST) From: bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah blah Message-ID: > >Jerry said: > >>Sometimes a good story has to do nasty things to characters we like; > >>it may not be what we'd *want* to have happen to them, but stories > >>where only nice things happen are likely to be pretty boring... > > Huzzah. Well spoken. Life is not all roses and sugar buns. Sometimes > life is hard and sad and tragic things happen to really decent people. Bravo! Exactly the reason I like Misty, put into a nutshell. Too many books have characters who don't seem to have a life outside the pages of the book--that is, their problem crop up into a happy, nice life to start with and they get back to that happy nice life at the end--Misty's don't tend to have that problem! And I love books where "bad things happen to good people," because they do, and watching good people deal with that is fascinating. Apologies if I'm being incohearent, or have stepped on any rules--I told Deniz I would lurk and learn the lay of the land until I had something to say, and then of course I almost immediately had something to say. (It's also 1:30 in the morning and I wrote all evening, so I'm in a bit of a state.) To complete formal introductions, I am Allison in Mundania, otherwise and more enjoyably known as Winter Jackson, Commander of the DarkSky Irregulars. Winter. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:29:27 +1000 From: Melanie Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Textevd as promised! Message-ID: <3292B357.29FC-+AT+-mat.army.defence.gov.au> Allllll righty then! In my looooong Vanyel post, I promised lots of textevd - and now that I have the books with me at work, here it comes! But first, dang it, I made a boo-boo. Here I am, owning up to it; I said that I remembered Krebain telling Vanyel at the end of MPawn that he was working for someone else, and that when Wester Leshara hired him to kill Staven he'd been pleased that his "master's" plans would be advanced by Staven's death. Well, I went looking for it, and it ain't there! Yes, Krebain was hired by the Lesharas to kill Staven - but he never says anything about having a master. He was happy because the Lesharas had also hired him to kill *Vanyel*, and here Van was without Krebain having to look for him. Poot. Remembered it wrong. Oh well! Evidence for Leareth having been after Valdemar *before* Vanyel became a Herald-Mage: MPrice, pbk p313: [Vanyel:] '"I got all this from ransacking the bandit lord's thoughts. This mage, this 'Master Dark', has been operating for a long, long time. ... Rendan's *father* served him, in fact. This past year he actually began recruiting bandit groups seriously, but before that, he had at least four or five along the Border at any one time." "Why?" Stef asked, puzzled. "What's the point, if he's up past the mountains and we're down here?" :Because he didn't plan to stay there,: Yfandes replied. Van nodded ... "Exactly. As I said, he's been operating a *long* time. Long enough that he bagan all this before Elspeth was born. The northlands are harsh, cold, and populated mostly by nomadic hunters and caribou herders. He wanted power over somewhere more civilized." :Valdemar.:' p314: [Stef:] '"So, he decided he wanted Valdemar." ... "What's he been doing about it?" "He's been killing Heralds," Van said bluntly. [Van's thoughts, same page:] *He couldn't subvert us, he couldn't take us on openly, so he destroyed us singly. The Herald-Mages were the easiest for him to identify at a distance - and the ones he considered most threatening. And I was right; he's been killing children and trainees, making it look like accidents, for a very long time now. Getting the children the moment their Mage-Gift manifested, if he could.*' So, Leareth was working on getting Valdemar since "before Elspeth was born", which was a looooong time before Van was born, much less Chosen. There's no mention about him getting energy from the children and Herald-Mages he killed; he just wanted them out of the way. Final Strike stuff: Cara Smith already posted part of the textevd I wanted - MPrice p325. But - hmmmm - looks like I was wrong about how much power you need for a Final Strike - it mentions that although Van was "trembling with exhaustion" and lightly wounded, there was power left in the nodes he was using. It doesn't say HOW much power, but there was some, and he didn't have enough to trigger a FS until Yfandes turned up and shared hers. So it takes more than I thought, but still not that much IMO. (Cara Smith's textevd also deals with the underlings feeding him power, the fact that Leareth was a much better mage than Vanyel, etc - yay Cara! Thanks!) > He was a long way from Valdemar; remember, Elspeth and Skif went way south > and then crossed part of the Dhorisha Plains to get to Tayledras territory. > Remember, the Tayledras were just about legendary in Valdemar even in > Vanyel's time; you don't give legend status to your next-door-neighbours! WoFate, p 391: Darkwind was astonished that the Shin'a'in had given Elspeth a genuine, detailed map of the Dhorisha Plains... 'And it also showed the ruins here on the rim, cirled in red ink...' The "ruins here on the rim" of the Dhorisha Plains were very close to k'Sheyna Vale; so they're in the section of Pelagirs waaaay down south, not the section up by Lake Evendim. The map in WoFate backs this up; it shows Falconsbane's stronghold and everything. His creations - crows and armourplated cow-thingies - were wandering around on the Plains looking for stuff left over from the Mage Wars: WoFate, p303: [Kra'heera talking to Tre'valen:] '"There have been intruders on the Plains, intruders that only the shaman have been able to detect. The border guards cannot stop them, indeed, they have only recently caught sight of them at a distance. They are some kind of magic-made creatures from past the Tale'edras lands, and they have entered from the northern side of the Plains, where the Plains meet the territory of the Tale'edras Clan k'Sheyna."' Falconsbane forgetting things: WoFury p 93: [after Ancar tells Falconsbane that his enemies are from Valdemar:] 'Those Outlanders whose iterference had so undone his own plans were almost certainly on their way home. And *now* he knew where that home was.' If he didn't know before, that implies that he had forgotten all about Vanyel and his earlier attempt to conquer Valdemar, especially since he never goes "Gosh! I remember that place..." He obviously remembers that he *was* Leareth, and that he had Big Plans in that life, but he never says anything that even implies that he has specific memories of Valdemar and Heralds. *Wups!* Gotta go - my lift home is here! More textevd tomorrow if it's needed... I'm sure there's more on the "Falconsbane forgets things" thread... Mel the Redcap leaving in a hurry! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:46:34 -0500 From: ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Help (again..)/Anointing/Rediscovery/Irate Fluff/Almost Caught Up Message-ID: <961120014634_671679978-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-11-16 15:00:53 EST, Jake wrote: > It's happened. I'm suffering BURNOUT! *thud* My book is at a stonewall, > my > roleplaying is dead, my writing is uninspired.. I can't even come up with > humor anymore. How do you other writers combat this? Help.. I don't know if anyone has responded on this yet, as you can tell I am a little behind . . . . However, if someone has I'd like to add my .02 cents. When my inspiration for my books (yep, I'm about 3 chapters in on 2, not to mention countless halfwritten short stories) I either, 1. Take a break from writing for awhile, so I can replenish myself, so to speak. 2. Read one of my favorite authors, often a source of inspiration. 3. T.V. and movies can actually inspire also, I got a *very* interesting idea for a story a couple weeks ago when watching a show on haunted houses in America . . . Anyway, I hope that helps you some :). ============================================================= My Lord Korendil wrote: > "Nightshade, I, Lord Korendil of Elfhame Sun-Descending, God of Night, > Patron Deity of All Things Nocturnal and Acting Master of Dreams, annoint > thee as my High Priestess." With this, he reaches into a pouch and takes > out a vial. Removing the stopper, he dips his index finger in. When it > arises, the digit is covered in pure darkness. "To serve the Night," he > says as he dabs it on her left ear. "To Protect Creatures of the Night," > the Elf intones as his finger annoints her left ear. "And to Mark thee as > my Highest Servant," says the Sidhe as the remaining liquid connects with > Nightshade's forehead. "Thou art Annointed, Nightshade." NightShade stands still for her anointing, then gracefully curties. "I thank thee, my lord for the honor and I do most humbly promise to endeavor to perform my duties to thine satisfaction. (I hope I got the thees and thous right, did I, Cen?) ============================================================= Deb Celuski wrote: > I have "Rediscovery," and it is a good book. However, at one point = > there was talk of a *second* MZB/ML Darkover collaboration, and I was = > asking if anyone had news of this. MZB had even stated that Misty was = > to "inherit" Darkover if MZB became unable or unwilling to write any = > more Darkover, but has been silent on the subject since "Rediscovery" = > was published. Recently *someone*, could have been on this list, or the LotPW list, but *someone* posted a list of new and forthcoming Misty books. This included several fairy tales, and a second Darkover collaboration. I for one was jumping up and down at this news, I loved Rediscovery and am dying to read the new one ! ============================================================= Renee wrote: > Thank you all for allowing me to rant. I seriously needed to get this off > my chest so I could concentrate on my studying. BTW, what's your > collective take on all of this? I think that I'm right in being a bit > ticked off about this, but I could be completely out of line. Don't mention it, *I* certainly didn't mind. My take, well, I think you are absolutely right to be irate. I would have reacted in much the same way, and probably in a very loud, extremely impolite manner . So, at least one of us aggrees with you, though I'm sure there are more . . . ============================================================= Whew! I'm done for now. *Finally* getting caught up, I only have two more days worth to get through! Yes, only. Trust me, this is definite progress, I *had* almost a weeks worth. Soooo, soon I ought to be back to my usual of at least one post a day . Blessed Be, NightShade One In Black, Lady Of The Pink Wand, & High Priestess Of All Things Nocturnal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:52:50 +0100 (CET) From: Khenta Blaufalk To: Misty mail Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) Message-ID: --this was meant to be sent before the other post; since I haven't seen it come up in a digest, I'm sending it again; sorry if it has turned up already-- RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! It's me!!! Bwahahahahahaha... I've momentarily escaped school and everything attached to that horrid subject, being tardy and procrastinating , with a math exam in sight (thursday). Mat writes: > Hey, I just looked at Firebird's web site, and there was an update > on Owlflight. Here's the exact quote from the page. > > "Owlflight - New Valdemar novel featuring the Hawkbrothers. This takes > place after the events in Storm Breaking, and features a new character, > a Hawkbrother scout who has a owl bondbird. The border, as ever is > a chaotic place to live, and makes life very interesting." > > So, though it's about Tayledras, and has an owl bondbird, it's > not about Wintermoon. Want to take bets that the scout's male and shaych on top of that? (oy - rather bad choice of words...) :) Not saying anything against shaych men (btw, would being a fan of Freddie Mercury qualify me for the LotPW?), never, but -as several people, including Hth and me IIRC, have pointed out- where are the female Tayledras characters????? AAAAAAAAAAAArgh. ===================================================================0 free bard woodlark writes: > I GOT THE SOLO!!!!! YAY!!!!! I'M VERY HAPPY!!!!! Congratulations! =========================================================== Walk in beauty Khenta Blaufalk aka Skyfire & Aar Goddess of Incomplete Vocabulary and Garbled Grammar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 18:11:02 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Burning Water / Cennyd / Lilac / Stef / Fluff. Message-ID: <9611200711.AA18922-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Cennyd wrote: > Then Kerry wrote: > > The possession and sacrifice of Robert/Burning-Water > > Er, I haven't read that book in a long time (I can't stand it, frankly), > but "Burning Water" was the title of the God Tezcatlipocha, not of a > person. At least, in real life. There are several translations of the > acclamation-style name of Tezcatlipocha which all refer to the same image, > the sun-disk. Burning Water and Smoking Mirror are the two translations > that are most commonly used, AFAIK. Thanks, I know. In the book, the God Tezcatlipocha (I never could remember how to spell it) possessed Robert, in effect turning him into an Avatar. The plotline was that the Avatar was to be sacrificed to allow the God to fully manifest, in all his power. Nonetheless, in the meantime, BW was in Robert's body and the Robert personality was not destroyed. Hence my use of the succinct phrase above. *grin* It would have been less subject to misinterpretation to have said "The possession of Robert by Burning Water and subsequent sacrifice of Robert/Burning-Water".. Cennyd wrote: > But, as far as the sacrifice of a variety of people goes, remember that > Tezcatlipocha's religion was centered around human-sacrifice. > The sacrifices were not made just out of revenge, but because that was > the way he had always been worshiped. This pattern of constant human > sacrifice was what fueled the "imperialism" of the Colhua Mexica (the > "Aztecs"): they were always in need of fresh sources of sacrificial > prisoners. So, Burning Water was not really behaving any differently > than he had always behaved, historically. And as for whether that makes > him evil or not, I guess it depends on whether you think he was a God or > not. If he was, then what he did could not be evil, since he would define > "good." This is analogous to stoning a an adulteress or burning a witch. > If you believe in a certain version of Christianity, then these acts are > not evil, because God has commanded them and they are therefore, by > definition, good acts. Of course, if you aren't inside the system as a > believer, then the acts are pretty hard to accept. I remember (now!) that the Aztecs did sacrifice their prisoners - I had the idea before that the sacrifices were from their own population.. All I was saying originally, was not that he was behaving in a manner inconsistent with his historical patterns, but rather that his behaviour in sacrificing others (as well as self-sacrifice or using willing sacrifices) rendered him an unsympathetic character, that we then perceive as evil. Just a comment on what you said above, even if you think he was a God, that doesn't necessarily mean that he defines 'good', especially given that he does not appear to be the sole god. (I was going to say it was a pantheastic culture, but I don't know that the Aztecs really worshipped Feathered-Serpent or White-Feathered-Serpent or whatever his name was). Point being, if you have more than one God about, all of a sudden 'good' becomes something more than that defined by a single god. Secondly even the Christian Old Testament seems to imply that "Good" is not solely defined by God either. Or rather I never got the impression that God defined good. The example that springs to mind is God telling Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac. Despite the fact that God told him to do it, the act would have been an evil one. Hmm, before you counter that, let me just say I'm aware it's a debatable point - suffice it to say that from what I know of Christianity, God doesn't define good, per se, but rather teaches of what Good is, in the same way that we might teach primitive cultures our morality regarding ritual murder or cannibalism. Hmm, that sounds like a semantic difference, but it seems a rather important one.. --- Cennyd, I don't mean to be rude and I certainly don't mean to flame you, but your recent post to Danya read as a little testy and somewhat personal, apparently unwarrantedly so. Whether or not you intended it to appear that way I don't know, but I'm just making the observation in case you weren't aware of the way it appeared to the casual reader. --- Korendil wrote: > But my Lady Lilac Fairy! You forgot to mention the fringe benefit of > getting (In)Famous Heather Essays never to appear > before the Mistylist! Not to mention even MORE Of my tithes to dafud git > of dypeoes!;> What? There are InFamous Heather Essays we don't see? What qualifications do I need to get into this group again Lilac? :) :) --- Danya wrote: > Shannon wrote: > >4) Stef is *not* a Herald. Would he have been willing to pretend > > Van was dead, live without him most of the time, even knowing > > that Van was really alive? I don't think so. As good as he was, he > > was more selfish than that. Anyone would be, except maybe a > >Herald. > > I think Stef was not a Herald simply because he had the Bardic Gift. > Remember, Healers and Bards aren't Chosen because their talents are too > valuable? But Stef _was_ a Herald as 'Lendel, and I don't think what made > him a Herald in that life went away in the next one. I think if Van asked > him to pretend and it meant a lot to Van that Stef would have done it. I agree completely. Stef had to have been as much cut out to be a Herald as 'Lendel was (however much you think that was). Stef may have been cynical and self-centred, but a lot of that was environment - especially the knowledge that no-one would look after a Bard in his dotage - he had to fend for himself. If he'd been admitted to the Heraldic circle, I think the knowledge that there was a group of people who cared about him, and would make sure he didn't spend his old-age years in the streets. I think being Heraldic material -has- to be innate to your soul. Certainly if it wasn't, there might be a little trouble with sending Heralds back as Companions. ------------------ Is there any chance we can keep the stuff about Deities etc from blowing out to be toooo fluffy? There seems to be an awful lot of it lately. I suspect I'm in the minority about this, and don't often feel very strongly about it so I'll just throw out the suggestion and shut up (with the note that a similar line of fluff re the Men-in-White & Mage-wars stuff & Ladies of the Pink Wand was kindly requested to go to a separate list). Cheers, Kerry. "In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade And he carries the reminders of every glove that laid him down or cut him till he cried out, in his anger and his shame, "I am leaving, I am leaving!" but the fighter still remains. --Simon & Garfunkle, "The Boxer" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:39:31 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Brvaes Goes On Writing Spree In Rioting St.Pete (pun Message-ID: <199611200739.XAA29858-+AT+-latimes.com> At 02:43 AM 11/20/96 GMT, Korendil wrote: >>Now, I didn't get that Learth had lots and lots of mages and shamans with >>him. I got that he had four mages and an army of rather regular types. >>Shamans do not grow on trees, and even in the empire Charliss himself could >>only come up with, what was it, 30?, to draw on in this manner. I think you >>are attributing far more power to Learth than he could have had at his >>disposal. And he is the one who is said to have carved the Pass. The mages >>didn't do it for him, nor do I remember the text saying that he used the >>mages to carve the Pass. > >Oh? Really? An army, bent on taking over a country (and, iirc, the >soldiers were coerced so it was more by numbers than anything else he >planned to conquer), which is led by a mage--and he only has 4 other >mages? I think not. Maybe you don't think so, but the quote says the four mages with the army and "half a dozen on the other side of the mountain." Ten mages, no shamans by my count. > >> Also, I do not think Vanyel was as depleted as >>everyone else seems to think. That was no quick physical and emotional >>recovery he made after that rape. I think we're talking about two or three >>months at least (the time passage is slipped in almost slight of hand in a >>couple of sentences, if I recall correctly), which I think is plenty of time >>for his powers to recharge. > >Hmm..strange..I seem to recall something taking energy from Van after the >kyree incident--oh YES! Those four MAGES! Van had just been through four >bloody duels, Danya! Each of THOSE Mages had been fresh, while he was >losing energy each time! I think we can bet those guys were Adepts (and >if you trust Jody Lee, they hadn't gotten out of their X-Files aliens >costumes yet either;>). So lessee...one man, with only nodes and his >internal power battling 4 adepts with a whole army to supply power to >them. Van wins those, yes--but then he has to fight Leareth, who Van says >is a superior mage! Hello? My point was that Vanyel should never have fought those duels. He has had squat to drain him before he fights them. No one knows he's in position. He has the motive, means and oppertunity to collapse the Pass before Leareth knows what hit him. At the very least Van could have taken out the four mages, but Leareth had to be somewhere nearby because all that has to happen is the army parts and there he is. Therfore, he's in the Pass. >Then give him an enemy who underestimates him. That he already had. >But Van only had a >partially drained Yfandes to draw on. When he first attacks from ambush he did not need her. He had the army completely by surprise. >He didn't know the lay (bad, bad >pun) of the land. I'm sorry? He had just walked the whole bloody thing over the past three or so days with Stef. He knew every inch of the Pass and--more to the point--every inch of what was above the Pass. >LHM was about fleshing out an epic, legendary moment in >Valdemaran history--recall, all the stuff about valdemar losing magic was >already set with the Herald trilogy by the time LHM came out. The ending >was planned from the beginning. Do you think that the historical King Arthur really got in a barge and is sleeping peacefully on Avalon, waiting to return when his country needs him most? Legends do not have to precisely match the history. In fact, they most often don't. What Talia was reading was a legend (or a romance novel based on a legend), not a history book. Misty did not have to stick to stick to the outline just because the "ending was planned." I have completed five fantasy novels of my own. Although they are not published yet, the task of completing has given me enough experience to know that you can plan all you want, but if you are letting the story grow out of character--the way Misty says she does--you can get into the third or fourth book in a series and find out that your characters would simply not do what you had planned for them to do. At that point you have a choice: go with what you planned and force the characters into the pre-planned mold or go with what the characters would do and toss your outline. In LHM I think Misty took the first option, and I think that was a mistake. >Danya, recall: legends take more than 700 years of documented history to >get messed up. Velgarth is NOT Earth. They have these records--they still >have books from the Empire 1400 years after breaking away! Beg to differ. This is not an attempt to "throw my degree around," but I did have to prove to a number of professors and colleagues that I do know what legends can and cannot do in order to get a Ph.D. in the transmission of narratives, specifically in the transmission of legends. I have several published papers and a book on the topic. I think I am qualified to say that your statement does not make sense. Ever play "telephone"? Hear of JFK? Only thirty years there. Elvis? What, twenty years? That's with the cameras rolling to document what "really" happened, not just someone (who wasn't even an eye witness) going to a scribe, reporting what happened and having the scribe write it down (medieval technology, remember? No xerox machines.). Records or no records, legends can get "messed up" in next to no time. >For the past, oh...prolly 20 years Van's constantly been either battling >demons from the five hells at border wars or taking the jobs of MO, King, >Envoy, Guardian, and head of the Heraldic Circle. Or with his family. You >pick which is worse;> He's just suffered the loss of Savil and close >friends. He's finally gotten to avenge all these horrible deaths, >including, in part, that of Lendel. And being alone "except for Yfandes" >isn't nothing, you know. Yfandes was, along with Savil and Stef and the >Hwakbrothers, one of his dearest friends. He's still serving his country >and his gods, but he's been given a break. A VERY well deserved one. >No-one's going to him for help or counsel. He can relax. He might be >lonely, yes, but remember that he knows very well that eventually his >ashke WILL be there with him. He has hope, he's got a friend with him so >forget about the lonely thing, and he's not feeling guilty about ignoring >Valedmar. And Stefen wasn't at the point of suicide after Van told him >about the deal. So why is it so unthinkable that he could have taken that break while remaining alive and while having occasional visits from Stef? In the scenario I spin he's still serving his country, still serving his gods, still getting Valdemar to rely on Heralds instead of Herald-Mages, only half as lonely, and he doesn't have to die or put Stef through hell to do it. > >Danya! LHM was set out to be a tragedy FROM BEFORE IT WAS WRITTEN! You don't need to shout. This is my point. A plot outline was written. But the only thing dooming the characters to follow that plot was the author. (Why am I suddenly thinking of Stoppard's _Rosencrantz and Gildenstern Are Dead_? :P) Misty could have done something different. Herbert did. Asimov did. Tolkien did. The list goes on, and it's pretty stellar company. >As of >AotQ, we know he dies saving the country. No, we don't. We know that several centuries after his death that's the story as it is known by at least one person in Haven. >Misty tells us the story, >though, and does a DAMNED fine job at it. I will agree with you to a point. I think she does a damned fine job until she hit sixteen pages from the end of the novel. In the next three pages, I think she made a plotting error. And there we part company. >The fact that Van and Stef even >got together is spirit showed a "happy ending". Misty could very well of >had Stef die from the argonel and have Van mourn his loss for the next >700 or so years. But she gave us a happy ending. It's a tacked on "happy ending" that I did not find any more satisfying that the wrap up of SB. She could have done better. > DOn't you get it? It HAD >to be a tragedy. It was set up that way. The outline was set up that way. It could have been a great drama with a well-deserved happy ending for the main characters. Instead it has a forced tragic ending in which the author betrays her character in the name of an outline. >Having it be about Vanyel, Herald-Mage of >Valdemar, who fought off the Dark Servants and Leareth and then lived >happily ever after teaching the remaining Mages with his ashke would be a >nice story, but not the one Misty wanted to tell. No, no, no. I absolutely never, ever, ever said that Van would go back to Haven and teach mages. I have no idea where you got that notion. I said that Van would live a solitary life with Yfandes in the Forest of Sorrows and Stef would visit in for a portion of each year. > >>Um, I AM looking at the map in _Magic's Price_ (yes, you folks actually got >>me to dig out the books), and the only Pelagir Hills I see are North of Lake >>Evendim. K'Treva Vale and k'Sheyna Vale are also North of Lake Evendim, >>with k'Vala Vale and k'Chona Vale South, near the border of Rethwellan. >>That does not put the Vales anywhere near the Dhorisha Plains. > >The Vales move, Danya. In 700 years, they moved quite a bit. As such, the >Peligirs moved quite a bit. And what whoever said was just that: there >were peligirs north of lake evendim. The point was that Learth attacked Valdemar rather than the Taleydras because he was closer to Valdemar and the Taleydras were down by the Dhorisha Plains. According to the map from LHM, he was roughly equidistant from the two and the Taleydras were north of Rethwellan and north of Lake Evendim while the Dhorisha Plains are far south of both Rethwellan and Lake Evendim. > >Danya, I think 700 years negates 80 years of loneliness ( Not if the 80 were undeserved, and 60+ of it were totally avoidable. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:55:40 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: yes another braid :) Message-ID: <199611200755.XAA00129-+AT+-latimes.com> At 04:40 AM 11/20/96 GMT, Renee Mic Markowicz wrote: >Actually, I don't think that this would have worked. I mean with Van, >we're talking about the ultimate self-sacrificer here. He was willing to >sacrifice almost anything to help king and country (Valdemar). He >definately wouldn't be the type to take the easy way out and go live it up >in Sorrows. If he _had_ survived the Leareth encounter, he probably would >have gone back to Haven and continued on in his duties. I never said he was "living it up in Sorrows" in the alternate scenario. I said he would be doing the exact same thing he did dead only he would be alive. He would not have gone back to Haven if he thought doing so would hurt Valdemar. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:18:33 EST From: lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van Message-ID: <19961119.204234.2902.1.Lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com> On the 19th Danya wrote: <<<>>> I'm sorry I have no textevd for this, but I distinctly remember in either the Winds or the Storms trilogy that *someone* explained this as what happened during the MageWars. The Pelagirs were split by the Cataclysm. Notice that only Lake Evendim seperates them IIRC. On the 19th Danya wrote: <<<>> No, I didn't mean as an eternal punishment. Look at their reward in the end- Van and Stef/Tylendel got to spend over 600 years together. That seems a fair compensation. But this would make Stef/'Lyndel earn his Eternal Reward and not tag along on Vanyel's coattails. And,Danya, I know you've been harassed over and over for your stances, but its o.k. We still love you. < Matya the Squirrel pounces joyfully onto your unprotected shoulder and prances around your neck, rubbing it softly with his little fluffy tail.>I'll-make-you-feel-all-better-Danya-lady!! So, don't get down. next week it'll be something new and someone else getting the brunt of the protect-so-and-so leagues. And since the Lilac Fairy and Hth said I may, here's my updated sig: Lightstorm, Lady of the Pink Wand, Lady of the Order of Amber and Marigold "Thought is barred in this City of Dreadful Joy and conversation is unknown."- Aldus Huxley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:17:16 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List Subject: almost on topic, homepage Message-ID: Hi all! I'm just trying to update the homepage, and add in all the new bios, but first I have a question, a friend of mine saw the page, and said it was almost unreadable, because the colors turned some really nasty colors. I'm looking at everything on a Unix machine, and it varies from PC's greatly sometimes. Could some people please take a look at the page, and describe the colors they see to me? I've checked on our other PC's and they look okay, not as nice as they do on the Unix box, but still readable. The adress is below in my sig..... ------------------ And condratulations to all newly named Gods nd Goddesses, I think that you will find that being a deity is quite wonderful indeed :) May your followers follow you truly, and give you most excellent tithes. As my Welcome to the Deity Club (tm) tithing, I offer each of you a box of Golden Fruit Loops that will never be empty, and a super spiffy prize falls out everytime you pour a bowl; and a package of sacred Tofu, as I realize not all of you enjoy it, it is not for eating, but will give you a soothing pleasant feeling when you touch it and say "glicky slicky foom hoom" Enjoy! ------------------- I have a request to make, after everyone has finally settled the thing about Van's death, I hereby nominate it to the list of Things We Shall Try To Avoid Talking About In The Future So As Not To Flog It To Death. I don't think I could handle going through this discussion again :) Once is enough. *--------------------Lady Becky of the Hills--------------------* |Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals | |Handmaiden of Procrastination | |Lady in Green | |Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) | |Mailing List Homepage http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html| |beckyanne-+AT+-iforge.com | *---------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 05:52 EST From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Auras/etc. Message-ID: I inquired >>ObMisty: What is the real coloring of a Healer Adept's aura? In MPrice and >>MPromise they are described as green-gold and blue-green respectively, >>IIRC. > Firemist wrote: >Ahh, but see those are *personal* auras. Kind of like how no two Sunrunners >have the same color-patterns; so no two mages/healers/etc. have the same >aura mis-understanding it again? Green gold was Moondance and blue-gree was >Starwind, right? > Tresta commented: >Moondance (the Healer) was green gold. Starwind was blue-green. Firesong >is the only other Healing Adept we have met, and his aura is never >mentioned. I don't know if all Tale'edras Healing Adepts have Moondance's >green gold aura, but it would make sense to me if they did. The >colors....the energy.....the land..... And here I go again: Well, here is my text evidence on the matter. We do learn about the aura of one other Healer-Adept apart form Moondance and Firesong, and he is the Tayledras Adept that leaves the active heartstone in Tashir's palace. In his case Van says (MPromise, pb, page 284): Vanyel got a very clear picture of Tayledras Adepts; several of them, all of them radiating great power, including one with the *peculiar blue-green aura* (emphasis mine) of the rare Healer-Adept. This would seem to imply that a peculiar blue green aura IS the "signature" of Healing Adepts in general, but it is different from the description of Moondance's aura. I cannot help but feel that Misty just forgot what the auras really looked like. Re: Vrondi Mel the Redcap, whom I congratulate on her recent elevation, aptly reminded me of the fact that it was the Truth Spell that defined borders for the Vrondi (I Do have to reread the winds series). However, Roald does not seem to have any of the problems about speaking of magic that other Valdemaran such as Eldan havem even after leaving their country. (IIRC, Kero distinctly remembers having trouble discussing magic with Eldan in Karse). And that had added to my puzzlement. Mel the Redcap wrote: > >Falconsbane forgetting things: >WoFury p 93: > [after Ancar tells Falconsbane that his enemies are from Valdemar:] 'Those >Outlanders whose iterference had so undone his own plans were almost >certainly on their way home. And *now* he knew where that home was.' > >If he didn't know before, that implies that he had forgotten all about Vanyel >and his earlier attempt to conquer Valdemar, especially since he never goes >"Gosh! I remember that place..." He obviously remembers that he *was* >Leareth, and that he had Big Plans in that life, but he never says >anything that even implies that he has specific memories of Valdemar and >Heralds. I don't think this really applies in general. This is after Falconsbane is acceidentally tossed in the spece between gates in an accidental manner, and he does not come back as someone else, but as himself after a severe trauma. He is traumatised, damaged, and IIRC would have been left in limbo if it hadn't been for Ancar's accidental spell. For the time being, congratulations to all the recently elevated Gods and Goddesses. May you reign fairly and cheerfully! And may we all enjoy it! WTTW, Ele Priestess of Karma LotPW Dame of the OAM ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 967 *********************************