MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 969

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Van
	by "Keith M. Barber" <keithb-+AT+-iea.com>
  2) Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari
	by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
  3) Re: Van's death
	by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria)
  4) The Great Vanyel Debate / New topic
	by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu>
  5) Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari
	by Kat <n9546529-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>
  6) Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel
	by Shannon <srae-+AT+-ix.netcom.com>
  7) Re: Stefen (Karma?)
	by Kat <n9546529-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>
  8) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd)
	by Kat <n9546529-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>
  9) Tresta/My gods! It WAS a daydream!/Vanyel/greetings
	by Jefferson or Rain <macstager-+AT+-earthlink.net>
 10) lifebonds (briefly)/ Firesong/ Larry's art/ attributions
	by Tammy Harris <THARRIS-+AT+-mdep.iupui.edu>
 11) Re: Brvaes Glares At ISP For Losing DNS For 38 Hours
	by Wintershard <peallen-+AT+-naz.edu>
 12) Vanyel/ideas for Mercedes/covers
	by Hades16-+AT+-aol.com
 13) Storm Breaking
	by khu286-+AT+-merle.acns.nwu.edu (Kay Huang Perry)
 14) colors, song, etc.
	by "JAIME HATHAWAY" <jsjahath-+AT+-future.judson.edu>
 15) Re: Storm Breaking
	by Phoenix <phoenix-+AT+-icom.ca>
 16) Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel
	by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
 17) Re: ideas for Mercedes/colors, song, etc.
	by "Emily L Cartier" <ecartier-+AT+-engr.udayton.edu>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:09 -0800
From: "Keith M. Barber" <keithb-+AT+-iea.com>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Van
Message-ID: <199611201834.SAA26949-+AT+-comtch.iea.com>



Linda Malcor, Ph.D <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>Wrote
> Date: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 8:44 AM
> 
> At 09:19 AM 11/20/96 GMT, Michelle N Reis wrote:
> >No, I didn't mean as an eternal punishment.  Look at their reward in the
> >end- Van and Stef/Tylendel got to spend over 600 years together.  That
> >seems a fair compensation.  But this would make Stef/'Lyndel earn his
> >Eternal Reward and not tag along on Vanyel's coattails.
> 
> And I think Stef could still earn it without the enforced 60+ year
> separation.  'Lendel screwed up, but Stef did absolutely nothing to
deserve
> that.
> >

I believe that Misty is using the Hindu  concept of Karma or cause and
effect, which does not see the same degree of separation between lives that
you seem to. this would mean that the Stef incarnation is responsible for
the actions of the Tylendel incarnation even though he does not remember
them consciously.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:44:43 -0800
From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari
Message-ID: <199611201844.KAA08816-+AT+-latimes.com>

At 02:23 PM 11/20/96 GMT, JAIME HATHAWAY wrote:
<snip>
>I still have to hold to the opinion that if he wasn't dead, he would, 
>because of his nature, have to be in the thick of things.  I don't 
>think he could just sit up in the Forest and protect it...besides, he 
>does a better job, and for a longer period of time, protecting the 
>area as a dead person than as a living one.

Um, according to the text, Sorrows is "the thick of things."  It's the
_only_ thick of things left that requires someone who can use magic.

>Furthermore...have we considered what VANYEL wanted?  Maybe he wanted 
>to die.  He certainly wasn't upset when he met the SL before, and 
>didn't he tell Medren that he'd gladly accept the SL embrace if it 
>was offered to him?

No, I maintain, especially after Van just realized that Stef was 'Lendel,
that he wanted to live.  It was when he was separated from 'Lendel that he
wanted to die.  To have his character suddenly want to be separated from
'Lendel/Stef makes no sense.

<snip>

>  he deserved a rest, and the only way that he could 
>really rest was if he was dead.  

And that's where I don't agree.  I think there was another way.

>He never seemed upset that he was 
>dead either.  he was joking when he encountered Stef.  

I think that was to cheer Stef up and stop him from killing himself more
than because Van was happy about their separation.

>If he were 
>alive, he'd never be able to rest b/c his sense of Heraldry or 
>whatever would always be calling him back where the situations were 
>most grave, simply because he'd probably be the only one who could 
>fix them.  

The only grave situation that needed him to fix it was Sorrows.  The textevd
is there.  And dead or alive he could do that.  In fact, if people _think_
he's dead, he actually has the leisure to take care of the problem instead
of having his time demanded elsewhere.

Danya


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 16:34 EST
From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Van's death
Message-ID: <m0vQIPP-000pizC-+AT+-nicasio.distrinet.com.uy>

Lady Becky wrote:
>I have a request to make, after everyone has finally settled the 
>thing about Van's death, I hereby nominate it to the list of Things We
Shall Try 
>To Avoid Talking About In The Future So As Not To Flog It To Death. I 
>don't think I could handle going through this discussion again :) 
>Once is enough. <g> 

I, for one, give my heartfelt support to this suggestion. IMHO (and being a
newbie I_really_mean the humble bit), further discussion of this topic will
only lead to a sterile and endless disagreement. Furthermore, not being a
writer, maybe I am missing some of the finer points of the discussion. 
I think Heather (as usual <g>) has very succinctly analysed the 2 issues at
stake here. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I am therefore
limiting my list discussions to other topics. My apologies if I sound rude.


For any of you interested in Spanish sayings, I asked Cen for help with the
translation of "No hay mal que por bien no venga" and this is the Mage's
opinion:
>>The translation of "No hay mal que por bien no venga" that works best for
>>me is "There is no evil but that some good comes of it."  However, the
>>"silver lining" expression is pretty close too.


Khenta wrote regarding Falconsbane:

>IMO he doesn't count at all 'cause it's Ma'ar all over and _that_ was a 
>shallow character. Offhand I don't even remember _why_ he hated the 
>gryphons and everybody else. So -IMO again- all his later incarnations 
>can only be as shallow.

I believe Falconsbane had very sound reasons to hate the gryphons, since he
had been royally (and deservedly) scr%&$d by one of them (Skan) in the event
that lead to his death as Ma'ar, apart from all his previous plans having
been upset by gryphons. It is understandable that with further incarnations
his hatred might have increased since he is repeatedly cheated of his revenge.


On another subject: I have never read anything by Anne McCaffrey (sp??)
(hold the coconut fall until I have explained the reason why). Her books
have never found their way to Uruguay, the way only ONE of Misty's books
did, and not having had a sample I never ordered any from Future Fantasy or
the other channels I normally use to complete my Misty and other author's
reading (getting only one book in a series is SO frustrating!!)
So, I am asking all and any of you: in what order should I read them? What
is the best book to start with? You can email me privately
(infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy) to let me know.

On another book subject:
I visited the Website of Amazon.com and there is a book by Misty called
Sword of Ice and other tales of Valdemar. Do any of you what it is about? 

WTTW,
Ele
Priestess of Karma
LotPW
Dame of the OAM


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:18:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: The Great Vanyel Debate / New topic
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.92.961120121600.24960B-100000-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu>

	Is it my imagination, or are things getting a little tense around
here?  Danya seems a bit defensive, understandably so, since she seems to
be the only person explaining the point of view she represents, and that
can be a rather alienating position (perhaps further alienating since the
OAM's banner went up).  And other folk are starting to sound a little
exasperated because they do not understand or are not convinced by Danya's
reasons and evidence, and why has this thread gone on when Danya is so
obviously[?] wrong.  I've noted snippiness on all sides.  Things have
gotten too big and complex for people to follow it in all its details, so
a couple of people have responded by attempting an overview (accurate
ones), but they've used their overviews as opportunities to promote their
own points of view, which I find counterproductive.  I think at this point
we are very close to agreeing to disagree, but I hate to leave it here,
with people being frustrated and what seems to me to be no clear notion of
what's causing the frustration.
	Danya has said a couple of times (if not more) that what she is
getting at is a critique of Misty's writing, but other people seem to have
difficulty interpreting Danya as taking something other than a Van-bashing
position.  Perhaps this is partly because Danya does not always keep the
frame of "criticizing Misty" at the forefront when having her say, altough
her recent post in reply to Heather's summary did a pretty good job of
that in her final paragraphs.  (Please pardon me, Danya, for constantly
using your name as if you are not here, but since the majority of the
people I'm addressing are not you, I'll continue to speak of you in the
third person.)
	I'd like to redescribe the various pieces of this discussion
within the framework of the craft of writing and the kinds of pleasures we
look for in books--without pushing any agenda other than that of one who
wishes to help people communicate.


1)	The first question is purely aesthetic: meaning vs. mimesis.
There's a certain bitterness inherent in the fact that Our Hero doesn't
get to walk away from his greatest triumph.  Many of us are satisfied with
that, because the bitterness of his death reflects the bitterness of life,
and because the truth Misty has told is a livable one:  With pain, there
is also joy, with defeat, there can also be triumph, with the bitter,
dwells sometimes the sweet.  Danya's response: 1) is it realistic (realism
being one of the stated criteria of the Vanyel-had-to-die party) to view
the ending in such a rosy fashion? and 2) what does this teach us--that
heroism is futile because the great costs are inadequately offset by
belated rewards?  In absolute terms, the validity of one side (meaning or
mimesis) cannot annihilate the validity of the other.  In relative terms,
whether you are going to be more annoyed by the discouraging and/or
unreasonably optimistic aspects of the ending than you are satisfied by
the encouraging and/or realistic aspects depends on what you care about
more.
	A part of that question is the question of whether Vanyel's story
can be seen as a version of the David/Goliath archetype.  Since people
have differing ideas of what constitutes fitting into an archetype, this
also seems to me to be not clearly addressed--necessarily before the
Vanyel-as-David idea can be agreed on or nixed, we have to first argue
about the criteria for identifying what a story must have in common with
the archetype in order to be a retelling of that archetype.


2) 	The other major matter is characterization.  Consistency of
characterization is obviously one of Danya's, and I think many other
people's, important criterion of a good book.  We know that Van is a
superb tactician, and, thanks to Stefen, motivated to survive.  So do
Vanyel's tactics live up to expectation?  The grounds for identifying
sound tactical decisions rest on creative possibility and and knowlege of
the way the world works.  This leads to threads about how Final Strike
works, how much energy did Van have at his disposal, and how large an
explosion would be needed to undermine a rock wall.  Danya has creatively
and apparently without effort come up with an option that the rest of us
either did not see or rationalized away.  Regardless of whether her
questions can be answered in a way that supports or detracts from Van's
brilliance, the point Danya would like to make is that it was mistake on
Misty's part not to supply us with the information that would make Van's
actions characteristically rational.  Instead, we're left to either infer
and rationalize our way through the gaps so as to preserve character
consistency, or else resist, scream, and fume.
	Because Danya is saying that Vanyel didn't have to die, that it
wasn't logical for him to die, some people are reaching for logical
reasons why Vanyel did have to die.  They seem to me to be coming up with
the sort of thing that I call story-logic; that is, the internal cues of
the trilogy, such as foreshadowing, imply that Van Must Die.  Having
reread the trilogy many times with different reactions, I think there is
room to argue over evidence regarding the story-logic requiring Van's
death.  However, the story-logic argument is separate from the question of
the character's logical behavior, and while I tend to agree with the
"story-logic says he has to die" party, even if we knew we were right it
would still have nothing to do with Van's behavior possibly being
uncharacteristically dense.  I think part of the reason that people are
having such difficulty understanding each other is that they are using
their answer to one question (e.g. "What does story-logic / consistent
characterization lead me to expect at this point?") as if it is a
reasonable answer to separate question (e.g. "If story-logic tells me X,
then X is the answer I should give to Danya when she says consistent
characterization leads her to expect Y.")


Just so I can't accuse me of harboring a hidden agenda, I'll mention my
point of view:  Lots of people have brought up some interesting and
challenging questions, but since they seem to have a hard time answering
each other relavently and clearly, I don't think anyone has managed to
actually refute anybody else.  (Okay, now I've annoyed everybody for
suggesting they might be unclear, etc., so I'm passing out a tray of
chocolates with apologies all around.)  Misty may well have made some
mistakes in the final chapters of MPrice.  I persist in rationalizing my
way into enjoying the ending of the book.  Nevertheless, Danya has her own
priorities and I'm willing to listen to her explain what frustrates her
when she reads it.  I feel a little sorry for her for being frustrated by
it, but I also feel a little sorry for myself for not enjoying the Arrows
trilogy as much as Danya seems able to.
	And that is Lee's Best Effort at explaining recent permutations of
the Vanyel thread.  I hope that I have not gone babbling on at such great
length in vain.  I hope that by recasting the arguement I've allowed us to
step away from our exasperation / alienation / whatever and allow heads to
cool and the Goddess Windsong to restore our serenity; I hope that an
examination of priorities and preferences can help people realize how they
might be talking at cross-purposes.  Whether or not this topic goes on the
list of Topics That Have Been Beaten To Death, I hope that we can
eventually leave this issue without feeling upset at each other.

******
[right here I was going to put a message to Dan, to defend Vanyel from
Dan's accusation of whininess, but since this message is already really
long, I'll just send it to Dan privately.]

OK, the new topic: In my Nefarious Plans to convert people to
Misty-reading, I've persuaded a couple of flute players that they would
like to learn "Shadow Lover".  Does anybody know how I can avoid buying
sheet music and still provide my hapless little musician friends with the
appropriate notes?  (Mail me privately.)

And finally, one bit of fluff:  I tried to be patient, but still I just
don't understand the thing about sheep.  So what, exactly, does it mean
when someone inserts <sheep> into their message? :)

Wind to thy wings,
--Lee-- 97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu -- www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/
"What time is it?"--Dekker, P. / Knight of the OAM, Spreader of Humor,
Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"












------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:02:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Kat <n9546529-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.961120125848.17661C-100000-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>

> I never said Van would toss aside his duty.  I just don't think his duty was
> to die; I think that was a side effect of the way Misty chose to have him do
> the job.  His duty was to defeat Leareth, which I think he could have done.
> His duty was to make Valdemar no longer reliant on Herald-Mages, so, had he
> lived, his duty would have been to withdraw.  And his duty was to defend
> Valdemar through Sorrows, which I think he could have done and stayed alive
> while doing it.

	Hmmmm..  In theory I agree with you.  Van didn't have to die, 
there were other ways to take care of what he did.  I don't know if I 
would have been satisfied as a reader witht that ending, but I agree that 
he didn't have to die and.. Well, what he did, while being glorious, 
honorable and all toghether self-sacrificing... was kind of stupid.  It's 
like Van was saying to all of those peacocks he hung out with before 
Tylendel, It may have been honorable, but it was still stupid.

Kat
Priestess of Karma


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:10:21 -0800
From: Shannon <srae-+AT+-ix.netcom.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel
Message-ID: <3293ABFD.5CEC-+AT+-ix.netcom.com>

OK, since everyone seems to be getting annoyed with this thread, this 
will be my last post on the subject.  (although personally I don't think
it's a tired subject yet, by any means)  

Danya wrote:

> Ah, but he would have plenty of time to think about it when "everything
> else" was no longer happening.  Stef would still fulfill his duty, earning
> his reward.  As I said in another post, their positions would simply be
> reversed.  Vanyel would be the "stay at home" and Stef would be the one who
> had to venture out into the world for long periods of time.

Well, yes, but I don't think Van would've taken time out.  If he'd
beaten
Leareth, I think he'd have immediately heading back to Haven.  With
Randale
so sick, and the war still going on, even with less mages, I can't
imagine
that he'd have stuck around.  

> 
> >4) Stef is *not* a Herald.  Would he have been willing to pretend
> >   Van was dead, live without him most of the time, even knowing
> >   that Van was really alive?  I don't think so.  As good as he was, he
> >   was more selfish than that.  Anyone would be, except maybe a
> >Herald.
> 
> I think Stef was not a Herald simply because he had the Bardic Gift.
> Remember, Healers and Bards aren't Chosen because their talents are too
> valuable?  But Stef _was_ a Herald as 'Lendel, and I don't think what made
> him a Herald in that life went away in the next one.  I think if Van asked
> him to pretend and it meant a lot to Van that Stef would have done it.

This makes sense, and it doesn't.  :)  I think that you may very well
be right but then again, just because Tylendel came back as Stef, it
doesn't necessarily make Stef Herald material.  They had very different
lives, and really weren't very much alike.  And Bards, at least, have
been Chosen, haven't they?  I can't remember at the moment. 

> >
> >5) Van *chose* his fate.  He chose to become part of Sorrows.  Granted,
> >   he probably didn't expect to be there so long, but he knew when he
> >   made the choice he'd be alone until Stef completed his task.
> >
> Dead or alive, the choice is the same.  If he'd lived, he might even have
> had a deity offer it to him if he didn't think about it himself.

Maybe, but I tend to think the need for him was stronger in Haven.  

>
> >My main argument, though, is still that Van just wouldn't pretend to
> >be dead.  It wasn't in him to throw his responsibilities to the wind.
> 
> See, that's where our sticking point is.  I see him as fulfilling his
> responsibilities _by_ pretending to be dead.

Yes. And I see him as betraying everything by pretending to be dead. 
<sigh> 

You mentioned all of Vanyel's champions saying he had to be dead and 
alone.  Well...it's not that, it's just that I think I might have felt
cheated by the book had he lived.  All the foreshadowing, the ice
dreams,
etc would have seemed silly had he just said, "oh look, a
pass..::poof::"
and dropped some rocks on his head and been done with it.  I desperately
wanted Vanyel to live, and maybe if the ending had gone the way you
describe then I would be shocked at the idea of myself arguing in favor
of his death.   But he did die, and IMO, it was the best way to end
the book. I must say, I'm truly sorry it ruined it for you.  A more
wonderful set of books I've never read, and sad to see someone so
disappointed in them.

Shannon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:16:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Kat <n9546529-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Stefen (Karma?)
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.961120130645.17661D-100000-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>

Tresta Said:

> I can see the reasoning behind this, but it still bothers me a little.
> Stef was Tylendel reincarnated; ie. he shared Lendel's spirit.  But he was
> *not* (entirely, at any rate) Tylendel.  He had his own memories, his own
> experience, his own personality.  He was Stefen.  And to me, punishing
> Stefen for what Tylendel had done by taking Vanyel away from Stef is cruel.
> It is, if you'll forgive me, punishing a child for the crimes of her
> parents, or other relatives.

	I personaly agree with you, but from my understanding of Karma, 
(correct my if I'm wrong, my God) when you are re-incarnated, what you 
did in a past life does effect what happens to you in this new life.  The 
concept of Karma is paying back for what you did wrong in another life, 
because you messed up in this one.  I don't think it's nesscarily fair 
either, but it's how it works.  With the way my life goes at time, I 
think I must have been someone completely horrible in a past life.

> *Stefen* had done nothing wrong.  Stefen had loved Vanyel with all his
> soul, and done everything he could for Van (ohhh, familiarity!) in the time
> they had together.  I imagine that Tylendel "suffered" for what he had done
> to Vanyel and had tremmendous regrets, whether or not the God(ess) punished
> him.  It may be, as many have said, that Tylendel owed something to Vanyel.
> But that debt was Lendel's.  We can't confuse that with Stefen.

	Again, I agree and completlely understand the emotion you are 
trying to convey.  (Empathy.. Gift or curse?  On the next Kat.)  I am 
torn between my personal feelings and my duty as a Priestess of Karma.  
Sigh..  Duty comes first, I suppose.  Perhaps Tylendel's suffering is 
being re-incarnated as Stefen?  (I know, I know Stefen doesn't deserve it 
since they are different people..)  Different people, same soul at the 
bottom of it all?  (ooooohhhh..  contraversial..)

Re: Auras

> Moondance (the Healer) was green gold.  Starwind was blue-green.  Firesong
> is the only other Healing Adept we have met, and his aura is never
> mentioned.  I don't know if all Tale'edras Healing Adepts have Moondance's
> green gold aura, but it would make sense to me if they did.  The
> colors....the energy.....the land.....

	To me it would make lots of sense for them to be essentialy the 
same all around, but everyone's aura is a little different.  This is a 
subject for thought.  I don't deal in colors I deal in feelings.  Arg.

> Forgive my my plunge into mysticism.  Some things are too profound for
> words.  This is how I feel about Vanyel, and Stefen (Somewhat by extension,
> but also in his own right).  Stefen earned his place in the Forest, and he
> got a lousy break (words cannot express that adequatly) in life.  But he
> deserved every good thing that came his way.
> 
	You plunge is forgiven, I tend to do it a little to often, as 
well.  Both Stefen and Van deserved better than they got.  But..  as is 
often in life, what you have is not what you deserve.  (Be it for good or 
bad.)

Kat
Priestess Of Karma


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:37:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kat <n9546529-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.961120133438.17661F-100000-+AT+-animal.cc.wwu.edu>

Khenta Said:

> Want to take bets that the scout's male and shaych on top of that? (oy - 
> rather bad choice of words...) :)
> Not saying anything against shaych men (btw, would being a fan of Freddie 
> Mercury qualify me for the LotPW?), never, but -as several people, 
> including Hth and me IIRC, have pointed out- where are the female 
> Tayledras characters????? AAAAAAAAAAAArgh.

	No kidding.  Also, I wouldn't mind seeing more female shaych 
characters.  (I know, I know they are in the Arrows books).  I like Van 
and I like Firesong and I like... (You get the point) but I would like 
mroe female shaych characters.  Have there been any bi characters in 
Velgarth that we know of?  I can't think of any off the top of my 
head.... 

(Sorry it's so short...  No time...  Classes, Choir concerts, Women's 
chorale auditions..  Ack!  Too much stuff.

Kat
Priestess of Karma

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:13:02 -0800
From: Jefferson or Rain <macstager-+AT+-earthlink.net>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Tresta/My gods! It WAS a daydream!/Vanyel/greetings
Message-ID: <3292BD8E.4915-+AT+-earthlink.net>

singer-+AT+-iglobal.net wrote:

> Healer Rainwood, I *must* redeem myself! :) I did not write the above; I was quoting a post that I was *responding* to. I am a whole-hearted supporter of Tylendel; I happened to leave it out of my post, because I was talking about Stef. (And I dind't feel like being flamed).

Erg.  Did I flame you accidentally?  If I did, I most wholeheartedly
apologize.  I didn't mean to.  I thought flaming was when you wrote
something really nasty to someone all in CAPS.  Please accept my
apologies if I inadvertantly scorched you. :-)  Would somebody please
send me the definition of *flaming*, when it is acceptable, how it is
done and why we would do so?  Thank you.
> 
> Just wanted to clear my name, Lady Rainwood.  Pleae read my post again (the one called Stefen (Karma?) You might even like it. :)
> 
Actually, I did, and I did like what you said.  I knew that you were
responding to what somebody else had said, I just screwed up in
attributing who said what, when and to whom.  Sorry!  I am sending you a
cute little fluffy sheep that will leap over your bed at night whenever
you are restless - it will quietly leap as long as you need to count,
you'll never have to feed it, and it will always love you. ;->

Firemist, Kory, and a whole slew of y'all corrected me on this one, but
Firemist's was the closest to hand, so.  .  .

>>>as kory said "Must... Resist ... Talia daydream vs. actual book-content ...."
I tried. It was a heroic effort, but too much for me.<<<

Actually, I am glad you didn't resist too hard, as I was totally in
error - foot in mouth and utterly abashed.

>>>a few things 1) we had this discussion about a month ago <g><<<

I just signed on about 3 weeks ago, probably like, the day after the
discussion was over. :-) I haven't had time to read the archives, it's
all I can do to keep up with the daily list:-). Perhaps a little late
night archiving is in order.  .  .

>>>2) get out your Daw version and turn to page 9,<<< 

I did.  You are all totally correct.  That'll teach ME to go
triumphantly spouting off without reading the whole passage.  .  .
oops.  Thanks for all the good-humored and gentle corrections.  

Danya wrote:

>>>I actually find it rather amusing that so many people sworn to defend Van
seem to prefer the thought of him committing suicide and being alone for
another 60+ years to the thought of him living and being happy during at
least part of that time.  "Hey, look!  Here's a way your favorite
character
could have got the happiness he deserved!"  "Oh, no!  I'm here to be his
champion!  He has to be dead, dead dead!  Alone, alone, alone!  That's
the
only possible way!"  If I were Van, I think I'd be a tad dubious about
such
champions ;->.<<<

Can I confess that I found that remark to be a bit sarcastic?  I don't
think that anyone, myself included, is sitting around advocating a life
of misery, solitude and a horrible death for Vanyel.  We all think he
died in a very nasty manner.  The point all of "Van's dubious champions"
(and I am one of them) are making is that according to Misty, that IS
the way he died, that is the way she wrote it, end of story, end of
debate - out of all the possible endings, she chose this one.  Finito.
Van IS "dead, dead, dead." Regardless of our personal agendas for the
character.  I don't mean to be snippy, b*tchy or sarcastic - I certainly
respect your right to have an opinion and speak your mind, but I did
take your comment a bit personally.  And I'll leave it at that -
friends?

Winter wrote:
>>> To complete formal introductions, I am Allison in Mundania, otherwise and
more enjoyably known as Winter Jackson, Commander of the DarkSky
Irregulars.<<<

Welcome Winter! <hug> Hope you enjoy the list!  

Enough for today.  I am not having a very good one today.  I'm going to
go curl up with my sheep.  Now, now, kids, remember this is a family
show.  .  .

Peace,

Rainwood <macstager-+AT+-earthlink.net>

Impending High Priestess of Domesticity and Laundry
Knight of the OAM, Lady of the Pink Wand

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:49:28 -0500
From: Tammy Harris <THARRIS-+AT+-mdep.iupui.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: lifebonds (briefly)/ Firesong/ Larry's art/ attributions
Message-ID: <766BEC4A59-+AT+-mdep.iupui.edu>

Bright the day, listmates!

A couple of these are rather old; please forgive me.

Rainwood wrote:
 
> Weeeeelllll.  .  .  I don't know about 'over and over', but (textevd
> alert!) on page 82 of MPawn, Savil is really glad that Mardic and Donni
> are lifebonded - Misty writes "Nothing shook a lifebond except the death
> of one of the pair.  Vanyel's handsome face wasn't going to turn *her*
> head" referring to Donni.  

To my mind, all that's saying is that Donni wouldn't fall in love
with Van, which says nothing about whether or not she'd be
interested in some light-hearted fun.  Which, I'd say, she wouldn't
anyway, being from Valdemar.  It's lifebonded Tayledras that I think
would be open to it. 
========================

Lee wrote:

> Tammy: you said Firesong never struck you as the jealous type...I
> can think of two reasons why he seems jealous to me; first of all,
> he seems rather insecure when he seriously romantically wants
> someone, and secondly, he seems pretty jealous of the time &
> attention An'desha gives to Karal even tho' he knows theirs isn't a
> sexual relationship.  On the other hand, who knows?

I think someone already addressed this, but I thought I'd toss in my 
two cents.  I get the impression that he's insecure because he's in 
the position of the courter rather than the courtee, and knowing that 
An'desha is drifting away.  If he were in a committed relationship with 
someone, I still think he'd be okay with lighthearted romps in the 
pools.  But again, that's just MO.
========================

Lorraine wrote:

> I think, from trying to decipher where people are
> from, and most are from universities--I am probably one of the
> "older" females around this list.  

Well, some of us work at universities rather than attending them, but
yeah, there are a lot of students here.
========================

Heather wrote:

> His pictures are consistent with the
> character descriptions, as far as I remember

One of the pictures by Larry that really annoys me is his picture of
Altra, which is, IMO, quite different from the description.  Altra is
described as having short hair, with a darker (reddish?) face, paws,
etc.  His picture looks like a long-haired white Persian.
========================

Kit wrote:

> > Tammy wrote:
>   Moondance's flirtation
> > with Vanyel made me think about the nature of lifebonding;

Errr, no, I didn't.  Lee wrote it after quoting something I did 
write.  This isn't directed just at you, Kit.  I've noticed a lot of 
people doing this lately.  Please gang, it's really important to 
include attributions.  It's also important to attribute correctly.  
Thanks!

May your path be bright this day,
Tammy






"It's time to ask yourself what you believe"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:03:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Wintershard <peallen-+AT+-naz.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Brvaes Glares At ISP For Losing DNS For 38 Hours
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.95.961120125704.17053D-100000-+AT+-orion.naz.edu>

Kory wrote:
>>Oh, yeah...people might remember me griping about the trouble I was 
having getting any books on Wicca...<<

I'll second that! I went to my branch library to look up some, and I came
up with about 30 or so. Why gripe? About 28 or so were reference books at
the #*-+AT+-&!%$ main library! AARRGGH!!!!! <-- <g>
===================================================
Lightstorm wrote:
>>I would like to see if any of you other list members think that Cancer
Man from the X-Files would make a good evil character.<<

Then Kory wrote:
>>Um....you're misinterpreting him. [major snip]<<

You really think so, huh? Hmm, :srednop: yeah, I could see it working out
some. But I think he still ~does~ make for a pretty good bad guy. But how
do you figure him leading Muldor to the secretary?
==========================================================
Silvermoon wrote:
>> Sadly I've been feeling betrayed a lot lately.  And I don't think there
is anything I can do about it.<<

Weeellll, that's what friends are for, silly! :POUNCEPOUNCEPOUNCE: C'mon!
<HHH> <g> and last, but not least,  

                    {{{{{{hug}}}}}}

============================================================
Ele so kindly thought:
>>Wintershard, you demon!
Art thou losing thy touch?
Or art thou trying to lull me into a false sense of security until Cennydd
makes you a God?
Are you just biding your time?<<

But then Cen wrote:
>>Wintershard, thou hast been a Bad boy, threatening my Priestess with bad
weather, etc.  It seems to Me, therefore appropriate that thou remainest
a Demon, at least until Lady Thessa Names you herself.  After all, what
is a Demon but a God who doesn't play by the rules.<<

SOooo, you think you can get rid of me that easily, can you? <wild
laughter> Well, Ele, I'll let you have 2 more days of that . . . :c'mon,
you can say it: <gag> nice weather. Then, you'll just wait and see . . .

Oh, and Cen, I thank thee for explaining the difference, and, on further
thought, I shall happily remain the little Demon that I am <g>. BTW, where
ever didst thou bringest up ~rules~? 

then Kerry wrote:
>>Is there any chance we can keep the stuff about Deities etc from blowing
out to be toooo fluffy?<<

Well, without bringing up the ol' Fluff Argument, I can only say that I am
sorry if it annoys you some, I'm just trying to have fun. I'll tone it
down some, though. Please, for all the others: Kerry's ~not~ ruining my
enjoyment or anything like that. I just wanted to respond. :phew:
================================================================
Deniz wrote:
>>Just what agency, exactly, has been enforcing the compulsion against
speaking or thinking about magic in Valdemar?  Van and 'Fandes?  The
Companions?  Vrondi?  Van's spell?<<

IIRC, most of it is just loss of knowledge. Without Van there, or any mage
entering because of the vrondii, people just plane (sp?) forgot about it.
Also, the use of the Bards to strengthen the thought of non-Heralds might
have sped up the process.
=================================================================
Kerry wrote:
>>Mmm, I thought I recalled the phrase "called down the firestorm in a
final strike"<<

Could Misty have used strike to mean 'assault'?
=================================================================
Cen pondered:
>> Apparently, my brains and my fingers were not in communication at the
time.<<

<g> You have more than one?
=================================================================
Re Heather's MP stuff <g>-

"Uh-huh, what she said."

But, re Amber & Marigolds, [donning flame proof long underwear and socks
(with your permission, of course, Mel :)] I'll pass. What can I say? <g> I
like controversy. Okay, [flips down face guard] fire away ;)


-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=
Wintershard                          |Demon of Subtlety, Discreetness, and
peallen-+AT+-naz.edu                      |   Crappy Weather
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/6620 |'If it wasn't for the last minute,
'He who laughs last thinks slowest'  |   nothing would get done.'
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=













------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:25:03 -0500
From: Hades16-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Vanyel/ideas for Mercedes/covers
Message-ID: <961120172458_1649303204-+AT+-emout15.mail.aol.com>

As the (aspiring) Illegitimate God of Farfetched Theories and Misconstrued
Ideas, I feel the need to put in my opinion concerning Ashke's final strike.
I a can not site any exact places in MPrice because I loaned it to a good
friend.  The final strike did not need to happen the way it did, but Vanyel's
bodily demise was a good thing for the plot.  (In Vanyel's place I probably
would have done something like embrace Leareth((was that his name)) then
destroy him in an unhonorable way, but that is why I would never be a hero).
 As a character frequently put
through hell, death was really the only place that Vanyel could be at
relative peace.  I do not think that he could simply become a hermit.
 Remeber when he explained to Stefen the need to use the powers that he had
to help others.


BTW- who else thought that almost all of Misty's covers were...well...faggety
except for the Storm books, and W of F?   (please don't throw bowling balls
at me, anything but bowling balls)

    Things I would like to see Mercedes do:  
                                                -write about people of
Valdemar that have almost nothing to do with Heralds(I love the Heralds, but
let's see was else Valdemar has to  offer)

                                                  -write about the Eastern
Empire more and Iftel and even the other kingdoms that occasionally make
cameo appearences in her books

                                               -have a situation where none
of the possible Heirs are Chosen because the kids are rotten even though
their parents are saints

                                              


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:43:16 -0600 (CST)
From: khu286-+AT+-merle.acns.nwu.edu (Kay Huang Perry)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk (Mercedes Lackey Mailing List)
Subject: Storm Breaking
Message-ID: <199611202243.AA048409796-+AT+-merle.acns.nwu.edu>

I finally managed to buy Storm Breaking!  Hurrah!  Now I can stop deleting
all the posts talking about the book and actually partake in the discussion.

Spencer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:01:30 CST
From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" <jsjahath-+AT+-future.judson.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: colors, song, etc.
Message-ID: <3788DB1604-+AT+-future.judson.edu>

  I don't deal in colors I deal in feelings.  Arg.

Speaking of which, IS there anyone here who does deal in colors?  I'm 
very curious to know the psychological meanings behnd colors.  I saw 
a poster once that listed them, and you were supposed to pick your 
favorite color and see waht it had to say.  Skeptically, I did, and I 
was very surprised that it got my personality almost exactly.  (The 
color being purple)  Of course, that was long ago, and I've forgotten 
what it said, but I'd like to study it again.  Does anyone have any 
information you'd be willing to share?
I also jsut got my copy of this month's SFBC--Storm Breaking was on 
the cover and inside 2 page.  I can't wait til it gets here!
ObMisty.....What would happen to a Herald who was paralysed?  I can't 
come up with anything better, but I thought of it cause I just saw 
the new movie with Christopher Reeve...it was so inspiring!
Oh, and to add to the song list...how about 'One Sweet Day" by Mariah 
Carey and Boyz 2 Men for jsut about any Herald who loses another 
fellow clad in White?
Jacquelle
Ex astris, scientia

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:12:09 -0800
From: Phoenix <phoenix-+AT+-icom.ca>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Storm Breaking
Message-ID: <3293BA78.329F-+AT+-icom.ca>

Kay Huang Perry wrote:
> 
> I finally managed to buy Storm Breaking!  Hurrah!  Now I can stop deleting
> all the posts talking about the book and actually partake in the discussion.
> 
> Spencer

Not everyone has gotten it yet :-) I'm still waiting for it to come out
here in Canada.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:20:33 -0800
From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel
Message-ID: <199611202320.PAA14445-+AT+-latimes.com>

At 09:25 PM 11/20/96 GMT, Shannon wrote:
>OK, since everyone seems to be getting annoyed with this thread, this 
>will be my last post on the subject.  (although personally I don't think
>it's a tired subject yet, by any means)  

I don't think it's a tired subject, either.  And at least it does have more
to do with Misty's works than who is becoming God or Goddess of what this
week.  sigh.
>
>Danya wrote:
>
<snip>
>Well, yes, but I don't think Van would've taken time out.  If he'd
>beaten
>Leareth, I think he'd have immediately heading back to Haven.  With
>Randale
>so sick, and the war still going on, even with less mages, I can't
>imagine
>that he'd have stuck around.  

The reason he would have stuck around is that after the incident at the Pass
Van realized that, as much as he wanted to rid Valdemar of dependence on
Herald-Mages, Valdemar really, truly needed a guardian on the Northern
Border and that guardian _had_ to be a magical one.  He was the only Herald
left who could possibly fit that bill.

Danya


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:22:26 -0500
From: "Emily L Cartier" <ecartier-+AT+-engr.udayton.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: ideas for Mercedes/colors, song, etc.
Message-ID: <9611202325.AA10219-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu>

Hades had a lovely idea:
>-have a situation where none of the possible Heirs are Chosen 
>because the kids are rotten even though their parents are saints
I _like_ this idea! Can you imagine the problems that would ensue? By 
the time of AotQ, Misty has legal mechanisms in place where they can 
choose a substitute Heir. Somehow I doubt King Valdemar, wise and 
precient though he was, would have forseen there being absolutely NO 
possible heirs. It seems unlikely that there would be no noble 
children Chosen at all though...

Jaquelle asked:
>Speaking of which, IS there anyone 
>here who does deal in colors?  
Well, I "see" music in color, but I don't think that was what you 
meant. It is a very useful ability though. I can "see" where my voice 
is and use that knowlege to control it better (if my focus is off, it 
shows up in what I "see"). It also allows me to blend better into a 
choir (this can be a problem when you're the only audible person in 
your section, yuck!). I wonder if the Bards in Misty's Urban 
Fantasies have an ability like this? IIRC, Eric "saw" a kind of 
structure when he was performing Bardic magic... 

Emily the invisible


------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 969
*********************************