MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 970 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Auras by tygriss-+AT+-juno.com (Sara A Youngblood) 2) pouncing/paralysis by Soljan-+AT+-aol.com 3) Please do not misunderstand by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) 4) Sacrifice in Literature / Plotting points (Was Van) / Lee / Fluff / Covers. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 5) Brvaes Reacts In Shock At Last Post's Size & Goes On Braid Diet by Korendil 6) Re: colors, song, etc. by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) 7) Valdemar as a Role Playing Game by Phoenix 8) Re: ideas for Mercedes/colors, song, etc. by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 9) Dark Servants. Tresta. by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 10) phoenix by CDPC Lab Station 11) characters by CDPC Lab Station 12) sorry by Belrex 13) Brvaes Considers FInal Striking In Order To Stop Van's Thread;> by Korendil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:50:05 EST From: tygriss-+AT+-juno.com (Sara A Youngblood) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Auras Message-ID: <19961120.174710.8031.2.Tygriss-+AT+-juno.com> On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:46:39 GMT Kat writes: >> Moondance (the Healer) was green gold. Starwind was blue-green. I don't know if all Tale'edras Healing Adepts have >Moondance's >> green gold aura, but it would make sense to me if they did. Remember Brodie, the Healer from MPrice? The text (page 295) read that his aura was blue-green. So I think you're probably correct about the green-gold being Tayledras Healing Adepts. That's the only other Healer aura description I've run across. But then I'm also re-reading everything from LHM on so I may run into some others. Tygriss-+AT+-juno.com Priestess of Large Hunter Cats Lady of the Pink Wand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:45:22 -0500 From: Soljan-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: pouncing/paralysis Message-ID: <961120194521_229275476-+AT+-emout11.mail.aol.com> << Silvermoon wrote: >> Sadly I've been feeling betrayed a lot lately. And I don't think there is anything I can do about it.<< Wintershard replied to me with: >Weeellll, that's what friends are for, silly! :POUNCEPOUNCEPOUNCE: C'mon! and last, but not least, {{{{{{hug}}}}}} >> Thank you! I needed that. Hmmm...my RL friends have something to do with it tho. I'll save the list from that fluff though. Jacquelle asked: >>ObMisty.....What would happen to a Herald who was paralysed? I can't come up with anything better, but I thought of it cause I just saw the new movie with Christopher Reeve...it was so inspiring!<< Hmm..remember the Herald who got attacked by the firebird in Arrows? He was severely burned, and severely depressed. He wasn't really paralyzed, but he was pretty close for a while. I think that the same type of psychological thing would happen. Talia helped him through it by...IIRC, adding little triggered phrases. Whenever he thought that the pain was unbearble, he would get a message saying "but it will be better tomorrow." Anyone else remember this? That's the only evidence I can think of. Hmmm...a lot of them have been killed, but you don't hear about the injured Heralds very often. How many can we list? Skif got hurt on his internship...someone...don't remember who...broke both legs. Perhaps saving someone from drowning? I can't remember. And the burned guy. Talia after the whole captured thing. That's about it. And it's Misty related too! Yay! Lady Silvermoon LIG, Leader of the DDMF, Goddess of Sensitivity, Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold "Whatever tears at us, whatever holds us down, and if nothing can be done, we'll make the best of what's around." DMB _The Best of What's Around_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 21:47 EST From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Please do not misunderstand Message-ID: I have reread my last posting to the list, and I am not sure that what I wrote really reflects what I felt then (or feel now, for that matter). I was by no means telling anybody to shut up I *do* realise that the discussion going on about Van's death is certainly on topic, and I also realise it is not an attack or defense of Van our hero, but rather a discussion on the author's treatment of that character. (Not being a writer I am probably not being too clear, but it's my best effort) All the same, I do not feel this discussion will reach a satisfactory conclusion. It does NOT bore me, (in fact I have been taking part in it) and I am pretty impressed by the abilities many of you have displayed. It's just a gut feeling that we are now treading on a border maybe we should not cross. If any of you felt I was being aggressive I once more apologise. It was not and is not my intention. Cheers, Ele Priestess of Karma LotPW Dame of the OAM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 12:07:10 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Sacrifice in Literature / Plotting points (Was Van) / Lee / Fluff / Covers. Message-ID: <9611210107.AA20201-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> HTH wrote: > > There seems to be some concern that Vanyel sends out the wrong > >"message." That he is not a good role model, in that he is a good > >person, but still gets reamed by life. All I can say is that I like > >that about LHM. If it had been a corny moral piece, showing that if you > >live a good and upright life, you will be rewarded with an easy death at > >the age of 121 with your lifebonded at your side, it would have been > >kind of a stock pulp fantasy series. Hero faces difficulty. Hero > >remains true to his morals and leads a clean life. Hero defeats evil. > >Hero lives happily ever after. Also a fine story, in as far as it goes. > >Not the story Misty wanted to write. And not a story that would have > >stayed very long in my memory. Danya wrote: > Well, maybe I just like "corny moral pieces," then, but most of the classics > I can think of that live in my memory fall into your definition: Asimov's > Foundation and Robot series, Tolkien's _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the > Rings_, C.S. Lewis's _Chronicles of Narnia_ and _The Screwtape Letters_, > Herbert's Dune series, and the list goes on. It's the inspirational quality > to the tales that _makes_ them stay in my memory as wonderful works whereas > LHM lives in my memory as a work that still makes me cry in disappointment > and anger every time I read the ending scenes. Whoa whoa whoa. Other stuff I can pass as differences of opinion, but this just doesn't fit the facts. In half those classics you mentioned the Hero's do -not- get to live happily forever after - in most of them the Hero sacrifices their power, exhausts themselves and goes off to the Havens. Gandalf/Mithrandir, Bilbo & Frodo are tired, bone-weary tired of dealing with the world and they sail across the sea with the Elves to Tolkein's equivalent of the Havens. In C.S. Lewis' Chronicles, poor Susan falls by the wayside - she grows up & loses her faith, umpteen good-guys get killed, and in _The Last Battle_, it's -all- over. Ragnarok, Armageddon, the end of the world; and eventually they end up in the True Narnia of which all else is but shadow, ie the Havens. And one of the earlier books -opens- with the children dying in their own world from a train crash (even if we don't find out what happened until much later). Aerin lives in Robin McKinley's _The Hero and the Crown_, but has to leave her love Lethe and bury her immortality deep inside her. Leslie Charteris' _The Avenging Saint_ & _The Last Hero_ (have I said readthemreadthemreadthem before?). Even Asimov (whose greatest strength is -not- characterization) has the robot Giscard (sp?) die, in preventing the fall of humanity - a deliberate sacrifice - Daneel just takes up the torch.. Misty's character Dave, who sacrifices himself nobly (Say, out of curiosity, do you consider his death to be a cop-out as well?). Heck, the Christian sacrifice of the son of God to atone for humanity's sins. All the truly inspirational tales have one common theme. Nothing is won without sacrifice. The Last Herald Mage trilogy upholds that. Re King Arthur - I don't know what versions of the Legends you've been reading and I certainly don't claim to have done the research into it that you must have for your PhD, but every version I've ever heard of (apart from the saccharine sweet ones for kids) has Arthur die at the hands of Mordred, Excalibur given back to the Lady of the Lake, and in some legends, Arthur's -body- is taken to the Isle of Avalon where he lies in death/sleep to awaken again when the true king is needed. I've -never- ever heard of a version where Arthur is healed and living happily. I've read dead and I've read lying in death or death-like sleep. Also, the story of King Arthur isn't one of hope, necessarily, it's one of golden glory and sacrifice and innocence lost and redemption and all that good stuff. It evokes wistful nostalgia and poignancy and deep sadness for its passing. Tacking "But he'll rise again when needed." on the end of it isn't enough to characterize it as a message of hope. That addendum always smacks to me, as something you say to the peasants to keep them from abject despair, while you replace what was torn down. (In which sense, I guess it does promote hope, but that's not what the legend is about). > I wouldn't mind that if there really hadn't been such an easy alternative to > what she did with the plot and if there was a way to have Vanyel die without > it being suicide for no good reason. I mourn Kris every time I read the > sequence where he dies and again when I read about Talia's wedding. But > _Arrows_ I remember as a wonderful work in the same category with the others > I mentioned above instead of as a series that might have classed as the > greatest fantasy series I'd ever read except the ending pissed me off. Personally, I hated Kris' death in Arrows. Hated it a lot. I can accept that accidents and misfortune happens in real life, but as Heather has mentioned in the past, there was no plot point accomplished by Misty killing off Kris, -except- to remove him as a possible love tangle for Talia and Dirk. I guess it all adds up to the Bad things happen to good Heralds bit, but well, it rankled. (Why the -hell- Kris didn't use his much-vaunted damn Farsight to check that the way was clear, I don't know). But I'm one of these people who hold LHM & COTN as the best books Misty has written, with Arrows down on the list, more or less as being aimed at a younger (and female) target audience. > Van does nothing more to Leareth than talk to him before > calling the Final Strike. Van never tries to hurt him magically. And Van > never even considers trying to hurt him physically--the tactic that we know > from _Winds_ would have worked. The rule of thumb for plotting in terms of > audience reaction is that, given a choice, go for the happy ending. > And if you are telling a traditional plot, always, always, always > follow the pattern that the audience expects. Give Van a little credit. He's been around, seen enough to -know- how good an opponent is. In martial arts, I know within moments of starting to spar how good an opponent is, and if I'm totally out-classed, it's very very obvious to me, even if it isn't immediately so to an outside observer. As for hurting him physically - remember how Van had to fight his way against mage-bolts and lightning etc to reach the Adept in Tashir's Palace. If Van was that drained and Leareth that much better, Van couldn't have gotten near him with his shields as low as they were. Actually, I'd disagree with your rule of thumb there. Certainly Guy Gavriel Kay doesn't agree with it in the Fionavar Tapestry. Besides, "happy ending" depends entirely on what you mean - Van didn't go to oblivion & Leareth didn't win - some might argue that that was a happy ending. And the pattern that the audience was cued to expect -was- Van's death - the Foresight, the tale in Arrows.. Anyway, it wasn't a traditional plot any more than -any- antagonistic confrontation is traditional. I don't agree with the David and Goliath analogy by the way. David wasn't a warrior at all, Goliath was very much a warrior. Both Van and Leareth were appallingly powerful mages and Van did -not- expect Leareth to be that much better than him. Actually that could be the whole reason why Van didn't even think to take down the pass before Leareth arrived. Until then, Van was simply the better of any mage he'd encountered and by the time he found out otherwise it was just too late, and he was too drained and Leareth was there in front of him ready to counter any such move (and Van would probably have been killed by the rockslide anyway). At that stage, the situation probably narrowed down to taking Leareth out in the most sure way possible, and Van's -professional- opinion was that nothing short of a final strike with all of Yfandes' power backing him, was capable of penetrating Leareth's shields. (Note that this means a simple physical attack didn't have a hope in hell of getting through. The Falconsbane situation was completely different for a number of reasons). I like the books, a lot. And on a story-telling level, I would have felt cheated and enraged if Misty had (to me), wimped out and kept Vanyel alive after all the foreshadowing. Heck, a friend of mine thinks the series was damn poignant, but thinks Misty wimped out even in that she kept Vanyel around as a spirit afterwards! --------- Hmmm, Lee wrote lots of good stuff about this whole Van debate and breaking it down logicaly. Bravo! (No, I don't have anything to add, just wanted to acknowledge the careful thought that had gone into it). --------- Wintershard wrote: > then Kerry wrote: > >>Is there any chance we can keep the stuff about Deities etc from blowing > out to be toooo fluffy?<< > > Well, without bringing up the ol' Fluff Argument, I can only say that I am > sorry if it annoys you some, I'm just trying to have fun. I'll tone it > down some, though. Thanks.. Please don't think I was singling you out though, I certainly didn't mean to. :) ----------- Hades wrote: (Sign your name and I'll use it! *grin*) > BTW- who else thought that almost all of Misty's covers were...well...faggety > except for the Storm books, and W of F? (please don't throw bowling balls > at me, anything but bowling balls) Well, not to snip back with the obvious answer, but what do you expect from LHM? :) Actually, it depends what you mean by faggety (faggoty?) - if you mean effeminate, do you mean in the way the characters appeared, or the way that the art was drawn? If the art, it -was- drawn by a female, but didn't seem that effeminate to me. If the characters - well, half of them are female (Arrows eg) and Van was described when younger, as being somewhat effeminate (in the sense of being slim and good-looking, rather than a muscle-bound brick wall). On the covers though, I don't think he looked effeminate - the only thing that might be construed that way was the long hair, and it's not unusual for guys to have long-hair these days.. More details please. :) Cheers, Kerry.. Yeah, that's male for anyone who cares. No, it's not effeminate, step outside and we'll prove it. :) "All the pride and shame All the bone and glass These kind of fragile things Were never meanth to last..." --Shriekback, "Dust and Shadows." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 20:42:17 -0500 From: Korendil To: "Misty List" Subject: Brvaes Reacts In Shock At Last Post's Size & Goes On Braid Diet Message-ID: <9611210147.AA02590-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> >>Since I collect Christmas carols, I am always interested in analogs. = BTW, >>for any non-Christians on this list, are there analogous corpora of = songs >>associated with a particular religious feast in your tradition? For = example, >>are there Channukah carols? > >Well, I'm Jewish and we don't have any Chanukah carols, as it were, but >there are some songs about Chanukah (storytelling type) and there are some >that are just traditionally sung on Chanukah. /me butts in and nitpicks: Actually, Chanukah isn't a religious = holiday--it's more of a war holiday, celebrating the overthrowing of = Syrian rule. The religious bit to it with the oil miracle is more of = just legend, iirc. I get really annoyed when people think that = Chanukah is an analog of Christmas, since it isn't. We don't really = have one, actually. Chanukah, since it falls at the same time of the = year, was transmuted into one by American capitalism and Jewish = parents sick of having their kids get mad over not getting presents;> = If you want an analog, I'd guess it'd be Passover, or maybe = Purim(though that isn't religious either). A lot of Jewish "holidays" = are more traditional. OTOH, Pesach and Sukkhot (sp?) and the Sabbath = and the High Holy Days ARE religious. They just don't have many = songs. Or, for that matter, any really good ones;> Oh...and please, = everyone, correct me if I'm wrong. I AM Jewish, but I'm not very = devout, and not much formal education beyond what I get at my = Synagogue. With a list as big as this one, I'm sure there're bigger = authorities. Hmm. Maybe I DIDN'T waste all my Writing Points. >Definately an Avatar if anything. He's quite definitely SOMETHING. He's personified Death, for one..and = extremely handsome/pretty/cute no matter what. And he has the = star-eyes. Thanks for the textevd, btw. >flare-+AT+-udel.edu Whoah. TWO people here from UDel? You know Ken? > He gets to protect Valdemar Danya, the Border Wars were still going on then, I think. How do you = think he'd feel if he knew that Valdemar could USE Him somewhere and = not be able to go for fear of revealing himself? Van _did_ have that = self-sacrificing Heraldic attitude, you know. >I think Stef was not a Herald simply because he had the Bardic Gift. >Remember, Healers and Bards aren't Chosen because their talents are too >valuable? Yes they are. Shavri. Jadus. >The same thing would have been accomplished if he simply pretended to be >dead. As far as anyone other than Stef would know, there were no more >Herald Mages. But _Vanyel_ would know. And he wouldn't have been able to live with = that. > But, as I said, call yourself what you want. Heather? You ever gonna make a Naming Ceremony for all of us Knights = and Dames? Or do we just put it in our sigs? Btw, good job defending = Van;> >Allllll righty then! In my looooong Vanyel post, I promised lots of >textevd - >and now that I have the books with me at work, here it comes! GOOOOOD job;> >Want to take bets that the scout's male and shaych on top of that? (oy - >rather bad choice of words...) :) >Not saying anything against shaych men, never, but where are the female >Tayledras characters?????. Well, we can always hope that we're wrong--maybe it's a FEMALE shaych = character? we haven't had any main-char ones, but with bestsellers, = maybe misty feels she can do it with more confidence? Hmm...if it is, = could I start the Lords of the Blue Wand, or something? ;P >NightShade stands still for her anointing, then gracefully curties. "I = thank >thee, my lord for the honor and I do most humbly promise to endeavor to >perform my duties to thine satisfaction. (I hope I got the thees and thous >right, did I, Cen?) Oh, they're right--but they're wrong;> I'm your God. I use thee's and = thou's with you, but not the other way around!;P YOu should be nice = and proper and mundance with your God and use you.;> >Secondly even the Christian Old Testament seems to imply that "Good" is = not >solely defined by God either. Or rather I never got the impression that = God >defined good. The example that springs to mind is God telling Abraham to >sacrifice his only son Isaac. Despite the fact that God told him to do it, >the act would have been an evil one. aHEM...Judeo-Christain Old Testament. Us Jews made it, Xians added = their stories on to it. And the whole thing with sacrificing Isaac = (NOT his only son, just the only one that wasn't exiled or whatever = happened to Ismael or wtf his name was) was to show obediance to God = and not question what he said. It _would_ have been an evil one--by = today's standards. >Cennyd, I don't mean to be rude and I certainly don't mean to flame you, >but your recent post to Danya read as a little testy and somewhat = personal, >apparently unwarrantedly so. Whether or not you intended it to appear = that >way I don't know, but I'm just making the observation in case you weren't >aware of the way it appeared to the casual reader. As a CHampion of the LotPW, and therefore the OoUL/L, and the fact I = agree with him, I must defend Ken. Reading 11 posts on the same = subject, each in a different email and oftimes repeating themselves = was annoying. And I can't find any evidence pro-Danya's arguments = either. Danya might have an excuse for the way she has her email, = it's not an excuse to the list in general. Danya often gives us ver = insightful comments, though, so she shouldn't leave. All the same, I = doubt that any email client can't braid in any way, shape, or form. >Maybe you don't think so, but the quote says the four mages with the army >and "half a dozen on the other side of the mountain." Ten mages, no = shamans >by my count. Argh...I really canNOT find my copy of Price anywhere (found Pawn and = Promise, though...), so I can't say anything about this. I'd truly = doubt he only had those mages, though. And he prolly had resevoirs = (sp?) or magic all over the place, too. Could some soul check for me? > He has the motive, means and oppertunity to collapse the Pass >before Leareth knows what hit him. Once again, textevd needed. Argh. I'm gonna search again...still = can't find it. Must be somewhere. But WHERE? Ditto on the request... >That he already had. Leareth didn't underestimate him. If he underestimated he would have = just attacked Van immediately instead of wasting his mages--and = that's another thing. If the mages are in low quantity, they'd be = valuable. Not levin-fodder. Leareth just didn't anticipate that = Yfandes could feed him power. Which Van didn't, either. > At that point you have a choice: go with >what you planned and force the characters into the pre-planned mold or go >with what the characters would do and toss your outline. In LHM I think >Misty took the first option, and I think that was a mistake. Wait--you find an ending in which Van hides away in Sorrows for = another 90 or 100 years (he WAS a mage) while Stef visits every once = in awhile as less contrived? Can you really see Van taking this fate = well? He _needed_ to help his country--and, I think, there are better = ways to than letting H-Ms die out. The only reason they needed to do = that was because there weren't enough H-ms to go around--because = Leareth was killing them off. >This is not an attempt to "throw my degree around," Nor did I construe it as such... >not just someone (who >wasn't even an eye witness) going to a scribe, reporting what happened and >having the scribe write it down (medieval technology, remember? You forget. The Chornicler is a Herald. The people TRUST Heralds. >So why is it so unthinkable that he could have taken that break while >remaining alive and while having occasional visits from Stef? Because Van had he Herald mind-set; he had to be actively helping the = country or his life was pointless. >No, we don't. We know that several centuries after his death that's the >story as it is known by at least one person in Haven. Oh? THIS I can textevd. AotQ, DAW pb, pg 118: "I never got to finish the tale of Herald Vanyel, sir....What = happened to him?" "He died. The Dark Servants hacked him to pieces before help could = arrive=8Byet he held them back long enough that his King was able to = bring up an army in time to repel their invasion. But he still died, = alone, and all the songs in the world won't change that." That's the Orientation Class, Danya. Not a novel. Vanyel died. She = boxed herself in, all right. And, imo, for the good. >It's a tacked on "happy ending" that I did not find any more satisfying = that >the wrap up of SB. She could have done better. And there we part, as I LIKED the ending of SB (except one element, = and that wasn't characters...well...some characters. It wasn't the = best ending, but it was pretty good). And, I liked the ending of = MPrice. It wraps it up a hell of a lot better than your convoluted = tale would have it, at least. >The outline was set up that way. It could have been a great drama with a >well-deserved happy ending for the main characters. Instead it has a = forced >tragic ending in which the author betrays her character in the name of an >outline. No. The HISTORY wa set up that way. This was in her notes since = before she started AotQ, I'd imagine. It has a quite nicely = foreshadowed tragic ending in which the author uses her characters. = An author can't betray their characters. Characters are like puppets = for the author to tell a tale, and what happened is what she wanted. >No, no, no. I absolutely never, ever, ever said that Van would go back to >Haven and teach mages. I have no idea where you got that notion. Except, of course, that he would have no reason not to go back to = Haven. They needed, as I said above, to get rid of the "I want a = H-M!" feeling because there were not enough to go around. THat's = because Leareth killed 'em all. With Leareth gone, the mage = population will resurface. If Van lived, he would have gone back to = Haven, if only because of the Heraldic mind-set. >Ma'ar was rather easy to stop, when you think about it: Gate in, drop a = box >at his feet, boom. Skan lived. And Urtho didn't. >So did you not care for any of the rest of Valdemar books, where the = villain >dies and the hero lives? You're misinterpreting. The true impact of LHM that has made it one = of the most popular trilogies is that it has a heart-wrenching = ending. Characters never win without sacrifice, nor should they. Kero = lost her freedom. Elspeth lost Valdemar's security from the Empire. = Karal ***** sorry, guys, spoiler. And Vanyel lost his life. And all = the songs in the world won't change that. >Yes. That's precisely what I'm saying. It was possible for Misty to have >chosen another direction for the plot, one that I think would have met all >the requirements for what she wanted to have happen but that did not = require >Van to do something stupid, to succumb to his fears, to die, and to leave >Stef struggling along without him for 60+ years. Van isn't perfect. He's Misty's best characters, and part of that is = his weaknesses. He wasn't supposed to know exactly how to do = everything right, overcome his fears, live, and spend the rest of his = life living what he deserved. The book is entitled _Magic's Price_. = And that's just what it is. In both earlier books, he escapes the SL. = He paid the price, finally. I just understood that, actually. For a = long, long time, I hadn't understood the idea behind MPrice, since = Van had his gifts and their use pressed on him... >Once is enough. Let's just finish it, so Danya can get it out of her system, I have a = chance to argue, and in the future newbies can't go "well, you never = reached a DECISION!" I know I will truly hate this thread when it = ends;> >We still love you. Right. We do, Danya, just we don't agree with you;> >I don't think this really applies in general. Ah, but it does. We don't get a glimmer of recognition when Valdemar = is mentioned when he was considering allying with Ancar in Change, = nor does he recognize Elspeth's Whites. >Now my head is getting all fuzzy, because there are at least two >separate arguments about Vanyel's death being mashed all together here. >Let me try to jimmy them apart, okay Ooo..Heather, when I grow up, will I be able to write as well as you = do?;> That was a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY good essay. > Lendel/Stef has some bad >karma to pay off for the wyrsa attack, And, recall, the 20 years Van went without Lendel is 3 times less = than that Stef had to without Van...this is an idea I still think is = good, unless someone can shoot it down. Ken? Gods. And this was just the mail I got overnight..sigh..blah. I'll = send this, since I'm sure theyre'll be another 40 waiting... -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 22:42 EST From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: colors, song, etc. Message-ID: Jacquelle wrote: >ObMisty.....What would happen to a Herald who was paralysed? I can't >come up with anything better, but I thought of it cause I just saw >the new movie with Christopher Reeve...it was so inspiring! > lady Silvermoon replied: >Hmmm...a lot of them have been killed, but you don't hear about the injured Heralds >very often. How many can we list? Skif got hurt on his internship...someone...don't >remember who...broke both legs. Perhaps saving someone from drowning? I can't >remember. And the burned guy. Talia after the whole captured thing. > That's about it. And it's Misty related too! Yay! > The case I can remember is Natoli's father (Kubrik was it? or am I making the name up??). IIRC it sounds as though he had some kind of paralysis, probably involving one side of hid body (hemiplegia?). He had trouble getting on and off his Companion, and I guess he would not have been able to ride an ordinary horse. Although the guy had to make a tremendous effort he was trying to be useful to his country. I guess in all the cases, aftyer the initial shock, the strngth of the Herald-Companion bond would manage to overcome part of the difficulties, and to prevent the Herald from feeling useless. >Jacquelle wondered: >IS there anyone here who does deal in colors? I'm very curious to know the >psychological meanings behind colors. I'm interested too. I read some tests some time ago, and they didn't make much sense. BTW, been listening to Joseph, and there is a lot of talk about sheep. It reminded me that I have not yet been able to understand. Am I being particularly dense?? You know, I wish someone would explain :) Wintershard, my favorite demon, thank you very much for the 2 day reprieve. The weather is still beautiful. The sky is blue, the birds are singing (or were until a couple of hours ago), the jazmin tree in my yard is in full bloom and I feel happy. There is a warm breeze blowing from the seaside, and preventing the weather from becoming too hot. People have started going to the beach and sunbathing in their backgardens. Just wanted you to know how much we appreciate this wonderful climate you are letting us have. Ele, Priestess of Karma LotPW Dame of the OAM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:13:33 -0800 From: Phoenix To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Valdemar as a Role Playing Game Message-ID: <3293E4FD.6855-+AT+-icom.ca> Would anyone out there know if someone has managed to bring Misty's Valdemar into a Role Playing system ie.. AD&D or even a Rifts setting? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:14:28 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ideas for Mercedes/colors, song, etc. Message-ID: <3BBFED30D0-+AT+-future.judson.edu> Ooooh, Emily, can you explain what you mean "you 'see' in color"? That sounds so interesting! Can it be explained, like do you physically SEE colors when notes are played, or do you just associate certain notes with colors in your mind as they are played. Can it even be explained at all? :) ObMisty....I, too, would like to see a story where no child of the monarch is Chosen....not likely to happen (the situation, not the story itself), but it would be interesting. Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:26:06 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Dark Servants. Tresta. Message-ID: <3BF1DE3F1C-+AT+-future.judson.edu> Thank you for your textevd..."The Dark Servants hacked him to pieces," but it brings up another question for me....Didn't Van's Final Strike leave no trace of him at all? What was left? A wisp of Fandes' hair and a cracked Prime Focus stone? I guess that must have been Teren's way of saying that he was really dead! (or something :) Oh, and Tresta, I am really interested in your Clan and your Gift to communicate with horses? I don't understand...could you please explain it to me? Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:46:11 -0800 From: CDPC Lab Station To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: phoenix Message-ID: <3293DE93.3521-+AT+-ra.msstate.edu> I wish someone would find out about phoenix's question. I think it would be great. Can someone tell me why Gwena erased Talia memory of her being grove born. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:50:20 -0800 From: CDPC Lab Station To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: characters Message-ID: <3293DF8C.697D-+AT+-ra.msstate.edu> Does anyone have a registered character with the Queen's Own. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:52:27 -0800 From: Belrex To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: sorry Message-ID: <3293E00B.37D3-+AT+-ra.msstate.edu> I forgot to put my name on the two previous messages that is sent. The ones that have cpdc lab station on them are from me. Belrex. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 21:55:35 -0500 From: Korendil To: "Misty List" Subject: Brvaes Considers FInal Striking In Order To Stop Van's Thread;> Message-ID: <9611210301.AA04792-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> Good job, Jacquelle. >Only if Van had been mortally wounded and dying anyway does >suiciding to take his opponent with him become the logical option. DO we really know if bringing down the cliffs would work? And with all those soldiers, could Yfandes have brought BOTH of them back in time for help? Could, maybe, Van have been counting on that help coming? I really need to find Mprice. >Ah, but apparently Van was the precise person that was needed: >"Valdemar needs a guardian on this Border, a magical one." I always thought that Misty stuffed that role into Van, more than the other way around.. >The only grave situation that needed him to fix it was Sorrows. Oh? And what about the fact that there are no more Herald Mages? I think having Van come back to Haven and continue on the Mages would work a LOT better than a make-shift spell and a last-ditch effort 700 years later. Think of Storms if there were still Herald Mages? They'd have a whole take on magic different from everyone else--not just this new Artificer stuff, which they aren't sure about and the lsit decided was totally false a few weeks ago. But Van died. So the spell was needed. > Ok, I know we've been here before, but I ahve to return...Talia was >DAYDREAMING. If you look up Evalie in the Arrow's Concordance, it >will tell you that she is Talia's imaginary Companion when she was >daydreaming herself into the otherwise perfectly historical tale. And >isn't the Concordance considered canon? Oh, Gods, No!!!!!<--- Not THIS discussion! Please, no! And, btw, is the concordance canon? >I don't mind that at all. In fact, that's how it should be. If the main >character doesn't have to work hard, the story is boring. But that's just what you're giving: An easy way out (the cliffs), and a happy no-loss ending (van lives in perfect contentment with Stef for the rest of his years). Which WOULD, imo, make the story boring. Definitely not as good as LHM turned out. > It's the >message of hope that has endured. What else can you consider the very ending of Price to be, Danya? >Firstly, I don't consider that a lie. Especially since triumph is bought at >a price and the blessings come at an ongoing cost. If Van takes down the pass with the cliffs, then what cost exists? The cost only enters when he Final Strikes. >As you say, we will obviously have to agree to disagree on this issue. But >Misty broke some very basic rules of writing and storytelling by forcing >this scene to go the way it did, and that, for me, is the tragedy of _The >Last Herald Mage_. _Yu_ might feel that the very ending of Price betrayed Van. I don't think it does, as do many others on the list. If I could find my Price, I'd read through that section carefully. But I can't. Working off what I remember (haven't reread that one in awhiles), Van did what he had to do. >and that >can be a rather alienating position (perhaps further alienating since the >OAM's banner went up). Actually, no. Danya, as far as I can tell, likes Van as a character. But she doesn't feel that Misty was fair by not allowing Van a way to live. The issue isn't Van's character (for once), but Misty's choice. >but other people seem to have >difficulty interpreting Danya as taking something other than a Van-bashing >position. I don't think Danya's Van-bashing. Anything but. I just don't feel that her position is justified. >And finally, one bit of fluff: I tried to be patient, but still I just >don't understand the thing about sheep. So what, exactly, does it mean >when someone inserts into their message? :) Ah. I started that. With help from Jake. I was annoying him, and started ing. He asked why only use , or somesuch, so I started ing. And it stuck;> Almost as much as B*p*y. Oh, and good essay-thingy. >-write about the Eastern >Empire more and Iftel and even the other kingdoms that occasionally make >cameo appearences in her books Read SB? >BTW- who else thought that almost all of Misty's covers were...well...faggety >except for the Storm books, and W of F? "faggety"? prolly the wrong choice of words here..but I think I get the idea. I don't think any of the LHM are very "feminine", nor Arrows (primitive medieval style, I think, 'cept for the last one) or V&H. Storms, though, I think is. > But how >do you figure him leading Muldor to the secretary? Well, if he was involved with Deepthroat, he was probably involved with X, right? >>>Mmm, I thought I recalled the phrase "called down the firestorm in a >final strike"<< > >Could Misty have used strike to mean 'assault'? According to the Concordance, it was his last "fire storm." >Why thank you! I truly appreciate your assistance in this matter. The >fact is that I read a book per day now, not all of which is Misty's work. > If you don't wish to help then please desist with the sarcasm! ? I was helping. If you'd read all of Misty's Velgarth books before asking for stories about things, then you'd understand. >I don't think it's a tired subject, either. And at least it does have more >to do with Misty's works than who is becoming God or Goddess of what this >week. sigh. Danya, comparitatively, the small ammount of bandwith taken by the god(ess) stuff is much smaller than any on-subject thread. THe Van one, for example. There's more to this list than arguing back and forth over nitpicky little things in the books. I, for one, probably stay on the list FOR that fluff more than anything else. Over the past few years I've witnessed this list really evolve. SO don't complain, just because you don't wanna join in. If was getting too bad, we'd go to another list. But it isn't. >The reason he would have stuck around is that after the incident at the Pass >Van realized that, as much as he wanted to rid Valdemar of dependence on >Herald-Mages, Valdemar really, truly needed a guardian on the Northern >Border and that guardian _had_ to be a magical one. He was the only Herald >left who could possibly fit that bill. They didn't need one _permanently_. By the time "Magic's Price" was written, only the occaisonal bandit got stuck there, right? FOr a short period of time, to clean up the remainging Servants, I can understand. >And I think Stef could still earn it without the enforced 60+ year >separation. 'Lendel screwed up, but Stef did absolutely nothing to deserve >that. Danya, Stef *was* Lendel. He still had Lendel's memories in part, so, in part, he had to pay for Lendel's crime. Those 60 years are made up over 100 times over. >I actually find it rather amusing that so many people sworn to defend Van >seem to prefer the thought of him committing suicide and being alone for >another 60+ years to the thought of him living and being happy during at >least part of that time. If I were Van, I think I'd be a tad dubious about such >champions ;->. I'm not into this for a character thing. I'm a big Van fan (I was a member of the Fanclub in bygone days--who remembers THAT?;>), but the plot, imo, doesn't work unless he dies. Just going by character, sure, Van should have survived. But that would betray the plot as much as you think the plot betrays the character. And Van's dead. TO quote once again "Not all the songs in the world could change that." >That's the only evidence I can think of. Hmmm...a lot of them have been >killed, but you don't hear about the injured Heralds very often. How many >can we list? Skif got hurt on his internship...someone...don't remember >who...broke both legs. Perhaps saving someone from drowning? I can't >remember. And the burned guy. Talia after the whole captured thing. Jadus. Wosshername, who saved the kids--oh, wait..she died..um...Tantris' chronic case of out-of-shapeness?;> >The Last Herald Mage trilogy upholds that. Woohoo! Great job, Kerry! Gods..I should concentrate on one big essay like that instead of individual answers...you and Heather are being smart about all of this.. -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 970 *********************************