MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 971 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah blah by anderbdm-+AT+-juno.com (Dawn L. Anderson) 2) My Long Post On Whether Van Had To Die! by Melanie Harris 3) Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya by lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) 4) Hello..:) by Gino Marotta 5) Re: phoenix by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 6) Re: characters by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 7) Re: My Long Post On Whether Van Had To Die! by Gino Marotta 8) Posting Size/ Kory / Abraham / Defending Ken. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 9) a little off-topic, sorry by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 10) Re: phoenix by Phoenix 11) Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya by Korendil 12) Re: Hello..:) by Korendil 13) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) by lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) 14) Re: Abraham by Becky Anne Christensen 15) Re: Posting Size/ Kory / Abraham / Defending Ken. by Becky Anne Christensen 16) Reply to: Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya by Rozanna McNeer 17) Reply to: Hello..:) by Rozanna McNeer 18) Karma, Stefen, & Tylendel by singer-+AT+-iglobal.net 19) lissa/bardic voices/QO/adresses/oathblinded by Becky Anne Christensen 20) Final thoughts on Van's death/sheep by "Hth." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:02:07 EST From: anderbdm-+AT+-juno.com (Dawn L. Anderson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Cc: anderbdm-+AT+-juno.com Subject: Re: blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah blah Message-ID: <19961120.204734.16638.3.anderbdm-+AT+-juno.com> It has been said before on this list. But one more time. Talia was daydreaming that she was with Van as another herald! Dawn On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:36:07 GMT chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg writes: >>THe book talia has is NOT the only thing I'm talking about. And there >was >>NOT another herald with them. No. Don't. >>Start.Day.Dream.Thread.Be.Strong. Whew. > >I don't think she was reading, she was day-dreaming and that other >herald >was Talia herself > >&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& >All those who need the abrev. list, please private e-mail me. > > > >Stormwind > >*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*& >Learning is a treasure which accompanies its owner everywhere. >--Anonymous > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Visit my homepage at "http://members.tripod.com/~eladi/index.html" >*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*& > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:48:51 +1000 From: Melanie Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: My Long Post On Whether Van Had To Die! Message-ID: <3293DF33.4679-+AT+-mat.army.defence.gov.au> What Heather said. No, really, Heather put things pretty well... Okay, I think that we've cited most of the facts-from-the-books that there are on this subject, and we're down to opinions, so this is going to be my last post on this subject unless someone says something I just HAVE to respond to, OK? (This means that I probably will post again, of course! ) Danya thinks (a) Van could and should have collapsed the pass. (b) Van could and should have survived, probably setting up in Sorrows. Most of the people who have been getting into this subject have been disagreeing for one reason or another. Frankly, I do too (sorry Danya!). Here's why in a nutshell! I happen to think that Van probably *could* have collapsed the pass, as long as he tried when he first arrived. Once he'd fought those four mages and had Leareth there in front of him, I don't think he had enough energy. I *don't*, however, think that he *should* have. When he first arrived, Leareth's army were forming up on the other side of the mountains; yes, collapsing the pass would have delayed them a little bit, but someone who had the power to cut that pass while shielding the magic from the Herald-Mages certainly had the power to clear it quickly. Back to square one. Yes, dropping it on Leareth as he went through would have solved the problem quite neatly - *if* Leareth wasn't holding physical shields on himself, which he might have been doing since he certainly had the power to spare, and *if* you can pinpoint where he is to do it. Vanyel couldn't tell where Leareth was; he couldn't wait above the pass while the Dark Whoozits were filing through in order to drop the rocks on the Major Mastermind when he spotted him, because the whole point of being there was to keep the army out of Valdemar. (Leareth was, IMO, either in the middle or near the back, until he had to come forward to deal with Vanyel.) Sure, they would have been leaderless, but they would have been through into Valdemar well before the Guard turned up to fight them, and I doubt they would have stayed leaderless for long! Leareth recruited his army from barbarians and bandits; if they found themselves in Valdemar, cut off from retreat and with their master dead, at least some would decide "Fine - the boys will follow me; let's do what Leareth wanted, except with *me* in charge!" They would have been well into Valdemar, spread out and moving fast, by the time the Guard got the warning. Vanyel's whole life was spent protecting Valdemar's people from that sort of threat; he *couldn't* do that. Vanyel's purpose was to delay the army long enough for the Guard to get there, and take out Leareth. If Leareth had been marching at the head of his army, that could have been accomplished with a convenient avalanche, but he wasn't. So, Vanyel had to block the army with something that the mages couldn't move easily - himself. (BTW, if you ask me, it would have made a lot more sense if Misty had written in some of Vanyel's thoughts as he was laying his little ambush, *explaining why he did it that way*! Then we wouldn't have this problem, trying to work out whether Van was written into doing something stupid because Misty didn't want to change her outline! Yes, Danya, I agree that the raggin' frazzin' ending SHOULD be different - I just think the *outcome* should be the same, but there should be a lot more "why he did this" to go with the "what"!) Once Vanyel was face-to-face with Leareth, it wasn't a case of "Oh poot, I might not win, let's forget Stef and everything else and commit suicide, goodbye"; Van thought "Maybe I *can* take him," had a good magical "look" at Leareth, and realised "I definitely *can't* take him - he's better than me to start with, he hasn't just fought four duels, he has half-a-dozen mages on the other side of the mountains feeding him power from nodes I can't reach, he's going to kill me and walk all over Valdemar." Yes, Van certainly wanted to live, for all the reasons you outlined, Danya - but he had exactly one choice; Final Strike, killing Leareth and a lot of the soldiers, at which point the Guard can take care of the rest of the army *and save Valdemar*, or fight a mage-duel he's certainly going to lose, die, and have Master Dark and his army walk all over the Guard and conquer Valdemar - at which point Stef is almost certainly going to die horribly when they reach the guard post. Not much of a choice; die, saving everything you love, or die, and everything you love dies too. Aha! You may think I have forgotten one of your most telling points - physical attack! But no! I remember it! (Mwahahahah! They think my memory is shot, but I'll show them - as soon as I recall where I left my WorldBuster (tm)... *ahem* sorry. Back to the plot.) Yup, Danya, you had a great point that Van could have attacked physically... this is another point where I said Misty should have put more "why" in with the "what". After all, Leareth probably isn't such a bad strategist himself; he's kept his act together for a couple of generations without getting deposed, he's certainly had to fight more than a few battles to get his little barbarian empire together, and he's a closer incarnation to Ma'ar (who was supposed to be a great strategist) than Falconsbane was, so presumably retained more of Ma'ar's expertise (if you subscribe to the "He Forgot Some Things" theory as I do). He would have thought of physical attack himself. All Misty had to do was put in a bit about Leareth being well-shielded against physical attack as well as magical, and then Vanyel would have been out of options. *sigh* looks like Misty had an attack of Finish-It-Off-Fast disease.... a few more pages of explanations, and *whee* there go all our technical problems with this bit. All I can say is, I think Leareth probably *was* physically shielded, and Misty forgot to specify that he was. *sigh* Well, that pretty much covers "Van could have survived", too. Personally, I don't think he could have; I've covered my stance on the "he didn't have to duel at all" side, and even if he'd gone "Hey wow, this twit isn't shielded against physical attack - have at you, varlet!" and stabbed Leareth in the giblets, I think the rest of the army would have got him eventually. (In... er... BTS, the Sunbolts were telling all the Valdemaran peasants how even ordinary people could take down mages; if nothing else works, all come at him at once and *someone* will manage to shoot or stab him, or he'll get tired.) The only way he'd have got out without them attacking him would be if they all ran away when he killed their leader - but there were heaps of people behind them who had to get the idea that turning around was the thing to do, get turned around, and leave, and in the meantime the ones at the front would be panicking. They couldn't go backwards when he first appeared because of the press of bodies behind them; someone would have reacted like a cornered rat and attacked him, and I think a lot more would have followed. If he stays, he eventually gets swamped; if he runs, they bring him down from behind. As for "Van *should* have survived"... well, as far as I can tell, Danya, the main reasons why you think he should have lived was (a) because it would have been fairer, (b) you think Misty broke one of the Major Rules of Writing by introducing a classic form ("David and Goliath") and then not following it through to the ending the readers expected, and (c) you wanted a happy ending. Weeeelll... (a) What Heather Said. Life isn't fair, and I think it's a more believable story this way. (b) I never saw it as "David and Goliath" - and if I had, I would have been right ticked off if Misty had concluded it with "'David' wins. Yay." I did creative writing as my elective major in University (not waving it, just stating it, OK?) and all but one of my teachers said that one of *their* Major Rules of Writing was to NOT give the readers what they expected - to not be predictable. You and I have different ideas about what the major Rules of Writing are, OK? Frankly, if Van had lived, my reaction would have been "Oh great. He survives magical backlash, attempted suicide and magical burnout in Pawn; he survives a major magical attack and being stabbed in Promise; he survives The Duel Of The Century in Price; ho-hum. This guy is no longer interesting; where's the suspense if you know he's always going to live? Bo-ring. Leareth must not have been as hot as he was built up to be." Because he *didn't* survive, but still managed to *win*, it was much more gripping! No, I didn't *want* him to die, but if he hadn't it would have been a lesser book, and I wouldn't like Misty's writing so much. (As a matter of fact, I'm heading in the "Oh great. He survives again." direction with Karal. If Misty ain't gonna have him eventually die, she shouldn't keep putting him in Major Life-Threatening Situations on a regular basis, or else we're going to get tired of it...) (c) *I* think it's a happy ending... besides, if he'd lived, I think that he would have considered it his duty to go back to Haven and train little Herald-Mages now that Leareth wasn't killing off all the kids with potential. Sure he would have had reservations about "the people are undervaluing 'ordinary' Heralds," but he would have done it anyway because Valdemar needed everything it could get to throw at Karse... and there goes the plot of Arrows, Winds and Storms... Hokay, that's my bit. And for the record, I don't think Van needs defending from you Danya; you aren't attacking him, you're attacking plot points. Therefore I need not take up my mantle as a Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold against you! (I may, however, need to stand beside you just being a Redcap in order to help shield you from people who automatically leap to defend Our Beloved Vanyel whether he needs it or not...) ;> Mel the Redcap Redcap of the Pink Wand Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold Goddess of Supernaturally Scary Socks (not digests!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:34:06 EST From: lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya Message-ID: <19961120.201022.2950.0.Lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com> On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Sara A Youngblood wrote: > > Textevd Request: In MPromise, Princess Tashira's Companion is named > Leshya (Yfandes' words on pg. 268, para. 10, thereabouts). Now, isn't I'm sorry, guys, but this is driving me crazy! I keep seeing Tashir referred to as Princess Tashira. 1.He is a prince, and 2. *He is aBoy*. IIRC Vanyel is attracted to him because of his resemblance to Tylendel. I'd also like to request that everyone think about the tone in which they are writing. I've read some not so nicely toned braids lately (generally aimed at Danya). I'm o.k. w/everyone's point. I just have my own and realize y'all do to. I'll even let you keep your own ideas(gryn)!! Lightstorm, Lady of the Pink Wand,Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold "Thought is barred in this City of Dreadful Joy and conversation is unknown."- Aldus Huxley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:11:23 -0500 (EST) From: Gino Marotta To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hello..:) Message-ID: <199611210411.XAA16720-+AT+-felix.cc.gatech.edu> Hey ya'll.. Anyways, I'm new to the list (just joined tonight)..jumped right in on a discussion of Vanyel too..interesting. I haven't read too many of her books..specifically, I've only read the Oathbreaker Duology, By The Sword, the Last Herald Mage trilogy, and the Bedlam's Bard duology (written with Ellen Guom). Now, it's the latter set that I actually have a question about. I've heard of the general series she has out about elves in the modern world, but specifically, are there any more books out there with Eric Banyon, Beth and Korendil in them? If not..are there going to be any more books in the series (whether from Lackey or not)..a friend of mine in Queen's Own mentioned Ellen Guom might do a book called Beyond World's End which is supposed to be a sequel..but then there's different information on the web pages about a forthcoming sequel..any concrete information out there? :) Thanks ya'll.. Gino ----- Gino Salvatore Marotta gino-+AT+-cc.gatech.edu - http://narnia.gt.ed.net/ "Being an elf isn't going to keep the cops from hassling you by day if they think you're blitzed." -Eric Banyon, "Bedlam's Bard" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:06:36 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: phoenix Message-ID: <3D9E3A5AE6-+AT+-future.judson.edu> > Date sent: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:16:59 GMT > Send reply to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > From: CDPC Lab Station > To: jsjahath-+AT+-future.judson.edu > Subject: phoenix > I wish someone would find out about phoenix's question. I think it > would be great. Can someone tell me why Gwena erased Talia memory of her > being grove born. Actually, it was Rolan who erased her memory....and probably for the same reason that the Companions keep their Chosen in the dark--which means that I don't know, but I'm sure it had to do with a Glorious Destiny :) Seriously, I think it had something to do with the fact that no one knew of Elspeth's being a mage, yet, so if everyone knew that she had a Grove Born, it would raise lots of questions that the Heralds wouldn't be able to figure out the answers to at that time. Anyone else? Jacquelle > Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:13:01 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: characters Message-ID: <3DB9DD1DB5-+AT+-future.judson.edu> > Date sent: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:19:18 GMT > Send reply to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > From: CDPC Lab Station > To: jsjahath-+AT+-future.judson.edu > Subject: characters > Does anyone have a registered character with the Queen's Own. Yeah, I do. (Sorry I didn't braid...I just can't figure out how to cut and paste--is that it? I'm not the most computer literate person on this planet, if you haven't guessed. Anyway, I fulfilled the Herald requirements: Herald Jacquelle, Companion Lancer (stallion)(and I know how similar it is to Lancir from LHM, but I promise, I had my persona worked out before I read WOFate and figured out that Companions were reincarnated Heralds Interesting fact, though: there is someone who registered a persona with the same Companion name as mine), Double Mindspeech. Actually, that is a very interesting question. How many of us here do have a registered persona with QO?> Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:24:29 -0500 (EST) From: Gino Marotta To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: My Long Post On Whether Van Had To Die! Message-ID: <199611210424.XAA17574-+AT+-felix.cc.gatech.edu> Hey all, Well, I'm new here, so I guess I'm jumping into the middle of this debate..and I guess what I'm seeing is mostly everyone arguing about the ways he could've survived, how he could've defeated the army, etc..what about pure readability..it was the end of the series..and I think that Mercedes portrayed Vanyel as the tragic hero throughout the trilogy..it was a perfect tragic ending..sacrificing himself for all he held dear.. Gino [just finishing up Bedlam's Bard] Marotta ----- Gino Salvatore Marotta gino-+AT+-cc.gatech.edu - http://narnia.gt.ed.net/ "Being an elf isn't going to keep the cops from hassling you by day if they think you're blitzed." -Eric Banyon, "Bedlam's Bard" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 15:15:58 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Posting Size/ Kory / Abraham / Defending Ken. Message-ID: <9611210415.AA20533-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Kory attribute dammit!! Kory wrote: > Brvaes Reacts In Shock At Last Post's Size & Goes On Braid Diet *grin* If that was referring to my post's size, then physician heal thyself - your subsequent braid was just as large. :) (But they were both on topic so I think they're acceptable). If you're suggesting I'm posting too much, well, you'll have to put it a little more bluntly than that. I (Kerry) wrote: > Secondly even the Christian Old Testament seems to imply that "Good" is not > solely defined by God either. Or rather I never got the impression that God > defined good. The example that springs to mind is God telling Abraham to > sacrifice his only son Isaac. Despite the fact that God told him to do it, > the act would have been an evil one. Kory wrote: > aHEM...Judeo-Christain Old Testament. Us Jews made it, Xians added = > their stories on to it. And the whole thing with sacrificing Isaac = > (NOT his only son, just the only one that wasn't exiled or whatever = > happened to Ismael or wtf his name was) was to show obediance to God = > and not question what he said. It _would_ have been an evil one--by = > today's standards. Yes, Judeo-Christian, sorry. And yes, that was one point of the story, but I raised it as an example of God not being the ultimate definition/definer of "Good". I (Kerry) wrote: > Cennyd, I don't mean to be rude and I certainly don't mean to flame you, > but your recent post to Danya read as a little testy and somewhat personal, > apparently unwarrantedly so. Whether or not you intended it to appear that > way I don't know, but I'm just making the observation in case you weren't > aware of the way it appeared to the casual reader. Kory responded: > As a CHampion of the LotPW, and therefore the OoUL/L, and the fact I = > agree with him, I must defend Ken. Reading 11 posts on the same = > subject, each in a different email and oftimes repeating themselves = > was annoying. And I can't find any evidence pro-Danya's arguments = > either. Danya might have an excuse for the way she has her email, = > it's not an excuse to the list in general. Danya often gives us ver = > insightful comments, though, so she shouldn't leave. All the same, I = > doubt that any email client can't braid in any way, shape, or form. Kory, don't take this the wrong way, but: 1. I wasn't attacking Ken as I thought the careful wording made quite clear. I was pointing out how his post appeared. 2. Everyone gets annoyed at certain series of posts every so often, we bite our tongues and skip them. We don't raise issues that are long since laid to rest and especially don't do so in a snide manner. Danya has explained her difficulties with email, and is obviously taking care and making the extra effort to braid and do things politely, so to make remarks about the far past was uncalled for. 3. Whether Danya makes insightful comments or not (and I agree she does) is not relevant. I don't want to see -anyone- chased from this list because they annoy some other list-member by what they post. You probably didn't mean to say that that should happen, but it implied. 4. Your last sentence is not to put too fine a point on it, rude [1] not to mention factually incorrect. Moreoever, it's hypocritical - in the large braid you wrote that in, you answered/quoted at least 10 people and didn't attribute once. To quote back at you, I doubt any email client can't put an "xxx wrote:" at the top of things. [1] In that it implies Danya either is lying, or is incompetant; and her answer to Ken clearly indicates she knows her way around dos & unix and the servers. The former is obviously wrong as I can think, immediately of a few email programs in which it's practically or totally impossible to braid different things together. I would like to think this isn't a flame, since I've tried to keep things analytical as opposed to personal, but if it is, so be it. Certain listmembers have been getting very critical around here lately and it's distressing to see. I would urge -everyone- to read carefully what's actually written before replying to what they -think- has been written. It saves confusion. Cheers, Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:33:36 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: a little off-topic, sorry Message-ID: <3E11D010D3-+AT+-future.judson.edu> I was wondering if I could get a little help. Hmmm...how should I word this? Ok, I'll start at the beginning...I'm doing a Senior Thesis, and for it, I'm writing a novel (historical fiction for young adults). Anyway, one of my mentors suggested I improve my writing skills by writing short stories, which I would love to do. I want to write them on social issues of today, such as abuse, sex, etc. Now, I am not shaych, but I think there are some of us here that are, and I was wondering if you would be willing to share some of your experiences with me...not THAT kind....but like how did your family and friends react when you told them of your orientation, etc. I only know one shaych girl, but we are penpals, and she has moved. (being at a Baptist women's college doesn't exactly give one a chance to be around shaych persons, although my suitemate was last year...she has since left. they don't even say the word sex here let alone anything else.) anyway, I feel really moved to write a short story dealing with homosexuality, but I have no resources whatsoever to turn to ...and I'd prefer to hear actual experiences instead of guessing what it must be like if your parents disowned you or something, and winging it in a story. So, if you would be willing to help me out...jsjahath-+AT+-future.judson.edu If not, I completely understand. I don't know as I would be willing to tell a stranger about something so personal, so don't think I'll be offended if no one replies. Thanks. Ok...ObMisty....oh, let's see....there must be something i can think of....I'm drawing a blank...is there some aspect of Misty we HAVEN'T discussed :)....Do you suppose Elspeth and Darkwind will ever have children? Ok, it's lame but it's the best I can do. Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:31:49 -0800 From: Phoenix To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: phoenix Message-ID: <32940565.C5B-+AT+-icom.ca> JAIME HATHAWAY wrote: > > > Date sent: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:16:59 GMT > > Send reply to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > > From: CDPC Lab Station > > To: jsjahath-+AT+-future.judson.edu > > Subject: phoenix > > > I wish someone would find out about phoenix's question. I think it > > would be great. Can someone tell me why Gwena erased Talia memory of her > > being grove born. > Actually, it was Rolan who erased her memory....and probably for the > same reason that the Companions keep their Chosen in the dark--which > means that I don't know, but I'm sure it had to do with a Glorious > Destiny :) Seriously, I think it had something to do with the fact > that no one knew of Elspeth's being a mage, yet, so if everyone knew > that she had a Grove Born, it would raise lots of questions that the > Heralds wouldn't be able to figure out the answers to at that time. > Anyone else? > Jacquelle > > > > Ex astris, scientia Thats the best way of looking at it ... typical Campanion logic eh! Zhai'helleva ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 23:26:40 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya Message-ID: <9611210432.AA07340-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> >I'm sorry, guys, but this is driving me crazy! I keep seeing Tashir >referred to as Princess Tashira. 1.He is a prince, and 2. *He is aBoy*. >IIRC Vanyel is attracted to him because of his resemblance to Tylendel. Oh, we know he's a boy. It's because of MPromise's cover. If the figure on the companion behind Van is male, than he's in drag. This is up there (and as Keeper of the Cover Descriptions, I decide what's up there;.) with Snake Nudist, Envoyess Karalia, Van's Vonderful Hair Dye, and the Mutant Squid(tm). What IS Jody Lee's problem? I mean, she does great cover art (usually)--but..um..well..it just messes up SOMEWHERE every once in awhile. I guess we can count our blessings and be thankful we don't have Sweet doing the covers...shudder. Van would have red hair on the first cover, white in the second, and black in the last. Height would vary, as would Yfandes' eye and coat colors. The crest would have a unicorn on it, not a pegasus...oo..actually, the mutant squid is a parallel to the dragon on the cover of Lord of Chaos! ;> Then again, the worst of all is when Larry did the cover--like for Oathbewildered. Eeyuch! Not only did he totally mess up details (yes, Larry. Sheep have white fleece. Not orange.), but..well...it was rather lewd. ;> -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 23:29:41 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: Hello..:) Message-ID: <9611210435.AA07440-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> > I've heard of the general series she has out about elves in the >modern world, but specifically, are there any more books out there with Eric >Banyon, Beth and Korendil in them? Prolly. But it doesn't seem to exist (look down). THere IS a book by Ellen Guin called Bedlam Boyz, about Kayla and Elizabet. > If not..are there going to be any more >books in the series (whether from Lackey or not)..a friend of mine in >Queen's Own mentioned Ellen Guom might do a book called Beyond World's End >which is supposed to be a sequel.. Guin did Bedlam Boyz, and in an old winter edition of Firebird, they said that another book, called _Beyond the Wide World's End_ or soemthing akin (someone who has the poem could say), would be out soon. That was probably 1994:( It'd prolly be written by both of 'em, though. -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B E|______________________________________________________________|E D|God did not create the world in 7 days; he screwed around for |D .|6 days and then pulled an all-nighter. |. N|--------------------------------------------------------------|N E|When I was in school,I cheated on my metaphysics exam:I looked|E T|into the soul of the boy sitting next to me. --Woody Allen |T -+AT+-__________________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________________-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:08:53 EST From: lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com (Michelle N Reis) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) Message-ID: <19961120.210109.2950.1.Lightstorm-+AT+-juno.com> On the 20th Kat wrote: <<<<< Have there been any bi characters in Velgarth that we know of? I can't think of any off the top of my head.... >>>>>>>> Does anyone count Ma'ar/Falconsbane? He seemed ready to "be attracted to" just about anyone, or anything for that matter. Everyone is wanting more people-stuff. I'd like to see may a hertasi, deyheli, or tervardi story. I'm curious about them and their way of life. Kyree would be good too. Does anyone else agree? Out of curiousity, what was the first ML book y'all ever read? My self it was Magic's Pawn. That is why, I guess, I love Vanyel so. But my other favorites are Elspeth and Darkwind. I wanna know more. More, more, more!! Sorry this isn't much of a post, but..... ah, what the heck<<>>>>hee hee hee Lightstorm, Lady of the Pink Wand, Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold "Thought is barred in this City of Dreadful Joy and conversation is unknown."- Aldus Huxley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:28:34 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Abraham Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Kerry Mealing wrote: > I (Kerry) wrote: > Secondly even the Christian Old Testament seems to imply that "Good" is not > solely defined by God either. Or rather I never got the impression that God > defined good. The example that springs to mind is God telling Abraham to > sacrifice his only son Isaac. Despite the fact that God told him to do it, > the act would have been an evil one. Oh no! Not again, I'm actually going to have to think about what I believe and back it up.......I hate it when that happens :)(kidding) Which brings up the question I haven't been able to get out of my head for the last few days, this is of course, assuming that the Christian God is almighty and did create everything. Bear with me here. Could God create a rock too big for him to move????? <--I won't even say it Now that's mind boggler for you. Anyone brave enought to take a shot at the answer? I know I'm not, think about it too much, and you'll get a headache. About the Abraham thing, I recall having this discussion before, was it on the list, or maybe I had it with one of my friends. I don't know. But anyways I'll try to explain it, and will probably botch it up real good, I used to know a *real* good answer to that. I'll try my best. Okay, commiting the act would have been evil, but God didn't let him go ahead and commit the act, he told him to stop. He never had any intention of actually letting him kill Isaac, he was just seeing if he would, kinda like playing mind games in a way. It was a test of faith, and I guess he passed. *--------------------Lady Becky of the Hills--------------------* |Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals | |Handmaiden of Procrastination | |Lady in Green | |Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) | |Mailing List Homepage http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html| |beckyanne-+AT+-iforge.com | *---------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:38:04 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Posting Size/ Kory / Abraham / Defending Ken. Message-ID: Kerry most insightfully said: > I would urge -everyone- to read carefully what's > actually written before replying to what they -think- has been written. > It saves confusion. > And after that, if you're not sure, or if you think you have been offended, write the person a personal note asking for clarification before defending yourself to the list at large. There is absolutely no reason to flame people publicly on the list, the only reason to do it is to humiliate the person, and there is no call for that. Think about what you are replying too, and see if it is something directed at one person, or at the list in general. Play nice everybody :) and try not to make assumptions. I know how easy it is, because through e-mail we can't hear the voice inflections and body language that clue us in to things words don't, I frequently catch myself doing this, and try to stop myself. Okay, I'll shut up now. Salut mes amis! *--------------------Lady Becky of the Hills--------------------* |Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals | |Handmaiden of Procrastination | |Lady in Green | |Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) | |Mailing List Homepage http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html| |beckyanne-+AT+-iforge.com | *---------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:58:24 -0500 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: Re: Naming of Priestess/Leshya Message-ID: <199611210028_MC1-C40-3D0B-+AT+-compuserve.com> >I'm sorry, guys, but this is driving me crazy! I keep seeing Tashir >referred to as Princess Tashira. 1.He is a prince, and 2. *He is aBoy*. >IIRC Vanyel is attracted to him because of his resemblance to Tylendel. Well, it goes way back to the casting list - mayube even before that! Some people think that Tashir looks like a girl on the cover of MPromise so we started calling him princess Tashira. This was further cemented when we had the Casting PArty - What Would Happen If Hollywood Turned Misty Into Movies much giggles over the exec's turning lendel in Tylendela, and Stefan into Stefanie. So of course, Tashir would have to be Tashira if Van was to fall for her/him based on his/her resemblence to Tylendel/Tylendela sorry. we get carried away sometimes. Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:01:32 -0500 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: Hello..:) Message-ID: <199611210033_MC1-C4A-F929-+AT+-compuserve.com> Gino asked: >a friend of mine in Queen's Own mentioned Ellen Guom might do a book >called Beyond World's End which is supposed to be a sequel. Well, she did do a PREquel called Bedlam Boyz - starring Kayla! it's the story of Kayla's life on the street with the Gangs. real tough! haven't heard of the other one, though. Firemist ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:36:38 -0600 From: singer-+AT+-iglobal.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Karma, Stefen, & Tylendel Message-ID: I won't say more about Karma; I don't really know much about how it works. Kat's explanation was the best; I appreciate that, Kat. I guess what I was addressing in my post was not karma, per se, but the idea of divine retribution which was more or less hinted at by some. (Two separate issues, I know.) I just wanted to express my unease with the idea that Stef was "paying" for somthing Tylendel had done. I am also uncomfortable with the idea that Tylendel would have to suffer or "pay" for things that he had done in his life. As Rainwood so correctly pointed out, Tylendel was not a Ma'ar, or even an EB . I am afraid to say too much on this subject, but I will say: Extenuating Circumstances. Helpful and intelligent Kat wrote: > Both Stefen and Van deserved better than they got. But.. as is >often in life, what you have is not what you deserve. (Be it for good or >bad.) Well put, Kat, and I totally agree. And, in my very humble opinion, Tylendel deserved a lot better than he got. . I hurt for them all. Go Gently, Tresta %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Tresta shena Jor'ethan "Love must live free." Healer to horses -Shin'a'in Teaching OAM %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "To be tired of horses is to be tired of life; horses are a gift to us." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: lissa/bardic voices/QO/adresses/oathblinded Message-ID: Sorry I'm not braiding, I thought I was done for the night, but guess not. :) I offer each of you a packet of Frosted Flakes in apology. At least it's on topic. ---------------------- Okay, are there any short stories about Lissa? She is one of my absolute favortie characters, and I want to know more about her. And wasn't someone compiling a list of all of Misty's short stories? If someone did, could I please have a copy? Thank you! ---------------------- Okay, let's talk about the Bardic Voices books for a while, we tend to concentrate on Valdemar and such. Remember how everyone was required to pay a tax and a tithe everyday? Is that something Misty made up out of her head, or is there some historical basis in it? Out of all her novels, I like those the best. They so much like fairytails. Of course I've still only read tL&tW, does firebird sell the other two books? I haven't seen them at my Barnes & Noble recently. ---------------------- And also, while I'm thinking about it, does anyone have the adress or information for the CA chapter of QO? I'm interested in joining, anyone here a member? What exactly is included when you join, I mean, what happens, I know barely anything about QO, just the stuff I've gathered from peole talking about it on the list. ---------------------- Oh yeah, and anyone who would feel comfortable doing so, could I please have your mailing adress? I promise I won't put it on a web page, or give it to anyone, but christmas is coming, and I want to be able to send christmas cards to you guys. :) Send it private e-mail, no need to clutter the list up. Thank you very much!!!!!! ----------------------- Yaaaaaaaay! I just got Oathblinded today! I finally get to read it! :) Wooohooo!! And no, no one can borrow it, it's mine all mine!! :) *lol* Aren't you all jealous?? (I'm sooooo sorry, I tried not to, but.....I couldn't help it :( I tried) *--------------------Lady Becky of the Hills--------------------* |Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals | |Handmaiden of Procrastination | |Lady in Green | |Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) | |Mailing List Homepage http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html| |beckyanne-+AT+-iforge.com | *---------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:54:24 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Final thoughts on Van's death/sheep Message-ID: <20NOV96.25819421.0172.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Lee's post was excellent; thank you, Lee. In the interest of stemming my own frustration, I'm going to offer up a few final musings, and then shut the heck up. First of all, it is my opinion, as it is Danya's, that nothing in this conversation is really about Vanyel. She has repeatedly said that this is not a criticism of Vanyel, but of the author. *This is not a debate about Vanyel's character (the province of the OAM), but a debate about the decisions Misty made when writing her book.* I do not speak, therefore, as a member of the Order on this issue. I have no interest in pursuing the question of Vanyel's ability to survive the confrontation with Leareth today; that's been better handled by others. For the moment, let's grant for the sake of argument that the ending was badly plotted, and Vanyel was forced into an unrealistic situation. Misty's writing her book, she finishes the last chapter, and it occurs to her that it's all out of character and makes no sense. Misty now has two options: Number One: She goes back and redesigns the final confrontation. She writes a better ending, closing off the obvious "escape routes," and achieving her desired ending in a logical and internally consistent fashion. Number Two: She says, "Well, look at that. Guess Vanyel does live after all. What do you know? Well, he's a nice guy, so what the heck." She changes not the *structure* of the ending but the ending itself, Vanyel survives and prospers. I would prefer to see the first route taken. Danya would prefer to see the second. Fine and dandy; we all like different things. What interests me here is that Danya is not simply concerned with the structure of the ending, but with its essence. She has made it clear that she is more than simply unhappy with the way in which Vanyel met his death. She is unhappy with the fact that he met his death at all. Fine and dandy. She would have enjoyed another story more. What I object to is her assumption that "I would have enjoyed the story more with a different ending" (speaking now about the content of the ending, not its form) is *synonymous* with "Misty ended her story wrong." Does all this make sense so far? This is rather hard to be clear about; as Lee said, there are so many elements involved in this thread that it's hard to keep everything sorted out. This assumption, that the story should not have ended in Vanyel's death (as distinct from the idea that the story should not have ended with Vanyel dying in that way), is based on the idea that LHM was originally designed to be a "classic David-and-Goliath" plot, and that she switched gears suddenly at the end, depriving us of the classic David-and-Goliath resolution. How can I make myself clear here? Damn, bear with me as I fumble through this. I never saw LHM as a "David-and-Goliath" story, and I never expected a "David-and-Goliath" ending. It is my humble opinion that the "classic" resolution is not always the best resolution for every story, precisely because it is so classic. It is often exactly what we anticipate, and I like to read stories that do not always give me exactly what I was expecting from them. Not that Danya should like a story because I do, but I don't think what I like in a story is inherently less valid than what Danya likes in a story, and that seems to be the subtext when she says that without the classic resolution, the book is ruined. Not less appealing to her, but screwed up by the inept writer. I.e. if Misty had written her story with Danya's ending, it would have been better. Well, I disagree. For Danya, the "tragedy" of LHM was that it gave her an ending she didn't want to a story she had previously been enjoying. I also think it's unfortunate that Danya didn't get the chance to enjoy the series as much as she could have. But I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if Vanyel had lived, I would not have enjoyed the series as much as I did. It would have been a little too classic for me, just another fantasy novel with a plucky hero who overcomes enormous odds and lives happily ever after. I liked LHM because it was brave and intense and unflinching and heartbreaking and not a cliche. That's what I admire in a book. Danya doesn't feel that way, which is fine. She liked other books better, which is fine. But I can't help feeling a little bit defensive when she says, in effect, "It's not that I didn't like the ending because of my own personal tastes, it's because the ending sucked. I don't know what you saw in it, but you obviously just don't get it, or you'd agree with me." I don't agree. I think it is a matter of taste, whether or not you are willing to accept a book that ends in the hero's death, when the death is done well and in character -- I realize Danya thought it wasn't, but her comments have implied to me that *even if it had been,* she would not have been satisfied with Vanyel's death. It's a little like (and I hope Danya doesn't mind me referencing some of our private e-mail conversations here) Danya's feelings when someone says about one of her characters, "But she should be more maternal," or what have you. The author's instinctive response is, "Why? Because that's what you expect her to be like? What if she's not a template -- what if she is simply more complex than you expected her to be?" That's how I feel when Danya says, "But it should have ended like David and Goliath." Look, it's not a matter of defending Vanyel. I think Vanyel was a terrific character, and that I will continue to maintain until I'm cold in the ground. But I understand that, just like being a nice person doesn't automatically win you a long life in the real world, it doesn't necessarily win you a long life in a book. My she'enedra and I have plotted a series that is expected to span well over nine books, and I have my own that will be made up of five. I have faced the prospect many times of whether or not to kill a character off. Barb and I have dealt with this many times, and sometimes characters that we expected originally to die have won their way back to life ("But Korelinas is so cool, and he died so young. I can't stand it. Maybe he could escape the assassination attempt and just go into hiding. Then we can bring him back later on." "Celeb has suffered enough. Jerrin lives, and that's all there is to it. His death doesn't achieve anything, so let's just forget all about it.") But that is not always how it works. Sometimes we decide that, cruel as it may seem, it adds to the power of the story to have a character die. We have one character, an old faithful who has always been good to the heroes and really deserves fine things, who is captured trying to escape an invasion with his wife -- just the two of them, and Sonia a non-combatant, trapped in a tunnel with a bunch of enemy soldiers. Zarr, nice a guy as he is, ends up having to watch helplessly as his Vaike (lifebonded, in Misty-terms) is beaten to death. Cruel? Yes. I think it's important to the story though, and I'm not going to change it just because Sonia's a sweetheart and it will hurt Zarr's feelings. It's not my obligation to make my characters happy all the time; it's my obligation to tell a good story. Nor is it Misty's obligation to make Vanyel happy, only to tell a good story. And while Danya doesn't feel like the ending made LHM a good story, there are those of us who do. I think it is time for us all to consider the idea that there is a difference between an ending we don't like and a bad ending, and that if there are at least as many people who like the ending as don't like it, perhaps it's more a matter of personal taste than a question of which ending was the "right" one. Once more, to avoid confusion: I'm not talking about whether or not Vanyel could have survived his situation. I'm talking about whether he should have been placed in a situation where he would survive. Every published author I've ever heard give out the Standard Advice to Young Writers says, "Write what you love, tell your story the way it wants to be told; it'll be a better story than the one you write to fit other people's expectations." That's what I think Misty did, and I think we need to respect her right to choose a story that involved the death of someone we cared about. We don't have to enjoy the story, but neither do we have to blame the author for being so foolish as to write a story we did not happen to enjoy. Another relatively quick point or two about Danya's response to my post: First, I actually am aware of the earlier "happy endings" contained in the corpus of Arthurian myths. It strikes me as significant that those are not the endings that have survived in the cultural imagination into our own times. Which of the many versions of Arthur's story do people of our time and place know and love, by and large? *Camelot,* *Excalibur,* *Once and Future King,* *Mists of Avalon.* All stories that engage our sympathies, make us root for Arthur and love him and want good things for him, and then give us something else entirely, his heartbreak and defeat. All wildly popular, while most people are not aware that Arthur once had four kids and lived to a ripe old age. Sometimes, we find the tragic ending more meaningful and more inspiring. And actually, there are some parallels with Vanyel's "legend." You say that Arthur got to reconcile with his friends and family: so did Vanyel. He spoke with Tylendel, heard him apologize, made his peace and learned to accept Stef's love. He found it within himself not to die obsessed with the idea that he was alone, but in the profound, heart-felt certainty that he was loved and cared for. Then he met his death, as Arthur met his defeat. Then he was taken elsewhere to live on, away from the mortal world, in a place of serenity, where he waits until Valdemar needs him again (as I think SBreaking implied), or at least until Valdemar no longer needs his lover. I think the two stories affect most of us in a similar way. And like Danya's own stories, LHM deals with a "version" of death that is not, boom, you were alive and now you're dead. He is "reincarnated" as a spirit in the Forest of Sorrows. His "life" obviously continues, and I don't see any reason to consider his death an unmitigated defeat. Anyway, my point is that while LHM was not the classic David-and-Goliath story, it was its own story, and had elements of other classic whatever. I would like to see the tenor of this debate become less in the vein (get yer mixed metaphors right here) of "This was not the correct ending for Misty's story." "I hated the ending" is fine. "The ending was badly constructed" is fine. "I didn't want Vanyel to die" is fine. "She should not have written that ending," not so much. Presenting your personal preferences as gospel truth and the only correct way to do things is bound to result in a few ruffled feathers from people who happen to think they have an equally valid preference -- and there are plenty of those on this list. Hah! Lured you in here with the sheep thing, didn't I? Bet you didn't think you'd have to read through all that to get to the sheep. For whoever asked, sheep are in reference to a bawdy joke or two that took up residence on the list, inspired by Vanyel's parting shot in MPromise (look it up). When someone puts in or , read it as "duck." We don't duck on this list, we sheep. No, it really doesn't make a lot of sense, but there you have it. It's endearing. Or at least, you find it less frightening if you just convince yourself of that. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 971 *********************************