MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 972 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Hello..:) by Gino Marotta 2) Re: characters by bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu 3) Cool! An outlet for my aggressions! by "Hth." 4) Kerry's comment about Fluff/ Deities by LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Sacrifice in Literature / Plotting points (Was Van) / Lee by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 6) Re: Brvaes Reacts In Shock At Last Post's Size & Goes On Braid by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 7) Re: Brvaes Considers FInal Striking In Order To Stop Van's by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 8) Re: My Long Post On Whether Van Had To Die! by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 9) Re: characters by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 10) Enough Already! by skarzin-+AT+-soonet.ca 11) Re: Final thoughts on Van's death/sheep by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 12) Re: Valdemar as a Role Playing Game by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 13) Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 14) Re: lissa/bardic voices/QO/adresses/oathblinded by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:59:43 -0500 (EST) From: Gino Marotta To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hello..:) Message-ID: <199611210559.AAA23449-+AT+-felix.cc.gatech.edu> At 05:13 AM 11/21/96 GMT, you wrote: >-+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- >I|Korendil, Knight of Elfhame Sun-Descending, Squire of the High|I >C|Court, Magus Minor, One In Black, Firstborn Child of Danaan, |C >U|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |U >B|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |B *smirk* You forgot "Envoy to Elfhame Misthold" ----- Gino Salvatore Marotta gino-+AT+-cc.gatech.edu - http://narnia.gt.ed.net/ "Being an elf isn't going to keep the cops from hassling you by day if they think you're blitzed." -Eric Banyon, "Bedlam's Bard" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:12:55 -0500 (EST) From: bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: characters Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, CDPC Lab Station wrote: > Does anyone have a registered character with the Queen's Own. Yes, from a while ago. Not Winter--someone else. She died under mysterious circumstances (actually, just a bad year at school, and an even worse case of impoverished-student-hood then usual) I miss her, but my personas don't tend to evolve with me, and she's a bit young now. --Winter Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:24:00 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Cool! An outlet for my aggressions! Message-ID: <21NOV96.00432280.0172.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Say, Hades, I'm curious. What -- precisely -- do you mean when you call a piece of art "faggety?" (Which I'm assuming means "faggotty" -- hmm, one t or two? this is not, ahem, a word I spell very often.) You f****** up pretty good here, friend. This may come as a shock to you, but there are a lot of people in the world that consider "faggot" an insult. And, if I'm reading you correctly, you were expressing dissatisfaction with the covers -- in other words, equating a semi-obscene term meaning "relating to gay men" with the general idea of "not good." Are you beginning to see the problem? Either you are really out of it and didn't even notice that what you said was an insult, or you are a bigoted son of a bitch. I'm a pretty nice person, I think. But I really object someone showing up on a list that I've subscribed to for a year now, a list that has always been a safe space for the les/bi/gay fanasy community, a list where we feel free to discuss sex and sexuality in an atmosphere of respect and friendship, and subjecting me to this kind of homophobic crap. It's inappropriate to speak as though homosexuality is the same thing as whatever negative quality you think Jodie Lee's art has. This gives the impression that you find homosexuality inherently negative. It is beyond inappropriate to throw around a word like "faggot." Would you sign onto a mailing list and instantly start asking people if they felt like X person's art was kinda niggery? Let us hope not. But that's just about what you did. So don't do it anymore. I'm a little tense right now. Otherwise I might have been nicer. Or maybe I wouldn't have. Guess we'll never know. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:44:27 -0500 From: LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Kerry's comment about Fluff/ Deities Message-ID: <961121014426_140548747-+AT+-emout17.mail.aol.com> Kerry wrote: >Is there any chance we can keep the stuff about Deities etc from blowing out to be toooo fluffy? There seems to be an awful lot of it lately.*snip* (with the note that a similar line of fluff re the Men-in-White & Mage-wars stuff & Ladies of the Pink Wand was kindly requested to go to a separate list).< Just to clarify, the Ladies of the Pink Wand were never *asked* to move off list. The Lilac Fairy made the decision to go off list, with Mel the List Mistress's blessing, based on the increased volume of the Misty list and because she didn't want to risk annoying those who aren't interested in playing with the LotPW. Those who do wish to play can email The Lilac Fairy privately for more information. All Deities welcome! ;-) Hey, is a fairy godmother considered a "deity"? The Lilac Fairy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:04:05 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sacrifice in Literature / Plotting points (Was Van) / Lee Message-ID: <199611210704.XAA22247-+AT+-latimes.com> At 01:39 AM 11/21/96 GMT, Kerry Mealing wrote: >Danya wrote: >> Well, maybe I just like "corny moral pieces," then, but most of the classics >> I can think of that live in my memory fall into your definition: Asimov's >> Foundation and Robot series, Tolkien's _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the >> Rings_, C.S. Lewis's _Chronicles of Narnia_ and _The Screwtape Letters_, >> Herbert's Dune series, and the list goes on. It's the inspirational quality >> to the tales that _makes_ them stay in my memory as wonderful works whereas >> LHM lives in my memory as a work that still makes me cry in disappointment >> and anger every time I read the ending scenes. > >Whoa whoa whoa. Other stuff I can pass as differences of opinion, but this >just doesn't fit the facts. In half those classics you mentioned the >Hero's do -not- get to live happily forever after - in most of them the >Hero sacrifices their power, exhausts themselves and goes off to the Havens. I'm sorry. I did not specify which character I was thinking about in each of the classics, and you thought of completely different ones from the ones I meant. In Asimov, for instance, I meant Daneel, not Giscard. And by "happily ever after" I don't mean partying every minute, gee ain't life grand. I mean that the hero gets to live and get a reward in "this" world, something that is horribly important for someone like Daneel, since he's a robot and, by all counts, if he gets shut off everything that he was is simply gone--no soul to go on to any Heaven. Misty's character Dave, who sacrifices himself nobly (Say, >out of curiosity, do you consider his death to be a cop-out as well?). I don't recognize the name, so I haven't read the book. > >Re King Arthur - I don't know what versions of the Legends you've been >reading and I certainly don't claim to have done the research into it >that you must have for your PhD, but every version I've ever heard of >(apart from the saccharine sweet ones for kids) has Arthur die at the >hands of Mordred, Excalibur given back to the Lady of the Lake, and >in some legends, Arthur's -body- is taken to the Isle of Avalon where >he lies in death/sleep to awaken again when the true king is needed. Well, all I can say is that you need to do a lot more reading, then. I have read every recorded legend of King Arthur--in the original languages--that was ever written during the Middle Ages. I think perhaps I just might know a bit more than you about this one as a result. >I've -never- ever heard of a version where Arthur is healed and living >happily. I've read dead and I've read lying in death or death-like sleep. Then I guess you didn't get as far as Sir Thomas Malory's _Le Morte Darthur_ then: "Yet some men say in many parts of England that King Arthur is not dead, but had [come] by the will of Our Lod Jesu into another place; and men say that he shall come again, and he shall with the holy cross. I will not say that it shall be so, but rather I will say, here in this world he changed his lige. But many men say that htere is written upon his tomb this verse: Hic Iacet Arthurus, Rex Quondam Rexque Futurus." How about the _Stanzaic Morte_: "The King spoke in a sad voice: 'I will go for a little while into the vale of Avalon to be healed of my wound.'" Geoffrey of Monmouth: "Arthur himself, our renowned King, was mortally wounded and was carried off to the Isle of Avalon, so that his wounds might be attended to." I could go on, but I won't bore the rest of the list trying to prove to someone who is unwilling to listen that I know what the heck I'm talking about. The popular version of the legend of Arthur as it has come down to us is that he was mortally wounded on the battlefield by Mordred, three queens showed up in a boat and took him to Avalon, an island owned by one of his kinswomen (usually thought to be Morgan Le Fey), who was renowned for her healing talents. There he lives awaiting the time of his return. One Welsh legend has him sleeping in a cave. He will wake and speak to whomever enters, asking if it is time for his return. One Italian legend has him sleeping in Mount Etna, where Morgan tends his wounds, which refuse to heal--but that's a version of the story that did not catch on. >Give Van a little credit. He's been around, seen enough to -know- how >good an opponent is. In martial arts, I know within moments of starting to >spar how good an opponent is, and if I'm totally out-classed, it's very very >obvious to me, even if it isn't immediately so to an outside observer. I don't just give Van a little credit. I give Van a lot of credit, in fact, a lot more than Misty gave him. >As for hurting him physically - remember how Van had to fight his way against >mage-bolts and lightning etc to reach the Adept in Tashir's Palace. If Van >was that drained and Leareth that much better, Van couldn't have gotten >near him with his shields as low as they were. Hello, hello. We're back to this again. Van is *not* drained when he uses the lightning to blow up the path. He could just as easily have used the lightning to blow up the base of the walls. >Actually, I'd disagree with your rule of thumb there. Certainly Guy Gavriel >Kay doesn't agree with it in the Fionavar Tapestry. You are perfectly free to disagree with whatever you want. >And the pattern that the audience was cued to expect -was- Van's death >- the Foresight, the tale in Arrows.. Which is precisely why Misty should have had him rise above everyone's expectations and get out of the mess. >Anyway, it wasn't a traditional plot >any more than -any- antagonistic confrontation is traditional. I don't >agree with the David and Goliath analogy by the way. David wasn't a warrior >at all, Goliath was very much a warrior. Both Van and Leareth were appallingly >powerful mages and Van did -not- expect Leareth to be that much better than >him. David is good with a sling, and he *knows* Goliath is much better than him at fighting. Van is good at fighting with magic, and he *thinks* Leareth is much better than him. David, all by his lonesome and no one thinking he has a prayer, goes up against an army and the army's champion, who has the opposition quaking in its proverbial boots. Van, all by his lonesome and thinking he hasn't a prayer, goes up against an army and the army's champion, who has the opposition quaking in his boots. The parallel is there, whether you chose to see it or not. >Actually that could be the whole reason why Van didn't even think to >take down the pass before Leareth arrived. Until then, Van was simply the >better of any mage he'd encountered and by the time he found out otherwise >it was just too late, and he was too drained and Leareth was there in front >of him ready to counter any such move (and Van would probably have been >killed by the rockslide anyway). No, on both counts. Textevd says Leareth wasn't expecting a thing like classic tactics; and he was expecting an attack against himself, not against his environment. And Van was in a position where he would have been shielded from the rockslide. Also, if he had even considered that tactic, he might have placed himself above the trail instead of on it. >(Note that this means a simple physical attack didn't have a hope >in hell of getting through. The Falconsbane situation was completely >different for a number of reasons). I don't think we have textevd for that at all. As far as I remember, I don't see anyone seeing Learth ever counter a physical attack against himself. Even is his shield do work against boulders, which I'm not convinced they would, he'd still be buried under half a mountain of rock. Ma'ar would have jumped. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:02:01 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Brvaes Reacts In Shock At Last Post's Size & Goes On Braid Message-ID: <199611210802.AAA22870-+AT+-latimes.com> At 02:02 AM 11/21/96 GMT, Korendil wrote: >Danya, the Border Wars were still going on then, I think. How do you = >think he'd feel if he knew that Valdemar could USE Him somewhere and = >not be able to go for fear of revealing himself? Van _did_ have that = >self-sacrificing Heraldic attitude, you know. How many times do I need to cite the textevd? Vanyel says quite clearly that Valdemar needs a guardian at Sorrows and that that guardian has to be able to do Magic. There is absolutely no one else left in Valdemar who fills that requirement. It has to be him. Living or dead, he is Valdemar's only option in the matter. > >>The same thing would have been accomplished if he simply pretended to be >>dead. As far as anyone other than Stef would know, there were no more >>Herald Mages. > >But _Vanyel_ would know. And he wouldn't have been able to live with = >that. And I think he would because it would be what was best for Valdemar. >As a CHampion of the LotPW, and therefore the OoUL/L, and the fact I = >agree with him, I must defend Ken. Reading 11 posts on the same = >subject, each in a different email and oftimes repeating themselves = >was annoying. And I can't find any evidence pro-Danya's arguments = >either. Danya might have an excuse for the way she has her email, = >it's not an excuse to the list in general. Danya often gives us ver = >insightful comments, though, so she shouldn't leave. All the same, I = >doubt that any email client can't braid in any way, shape, or form. One more comment like this, and Danya will be leaving the list. There are some nice people here, so I'll hate to go, but I do not need people who do not use my system telling me what it can or cannot do any more than I need people telling me that I can't possibly know what I'm talking about on a subject that I studied in college for eleven years and have subsequently published numerous articles, chapters, books, etc. on. I am really quite completely fed up with these nasty and often personal attacks. I thought I had found a place where people wanted to seriously discuss Misty's works. Apparently, though, there are a few individuals who choose to dominate the list and who prefer to engage in attacks against newbies and anyone who dares to try to talk on topic while deluging the list with fluff. You find eleven on topic posts annoying. I find upwards of thirty messages per day applying for or naming people God or Goddess of Whatever equally annoying. I have made some friends here, and I will miss them. But I will not sit around and be a target for flames I do not deserve simply to appease the egos of a few individuals I have never met. > >Argh...I really canNOT find my copy of Price anywhere (found Pawn and = >Promise, though...), so I can't say anything about this. I'd truly = >doubt he only had those mages, though. And he prolly had resevoirs = >(sp?) or magic all over the place, too. Could some soul check for me? Doubt all you want. Here's the textevdD: "He's got half a dozen of those mages feeding him power from the other side of the mountain." Last I checked, "half a dozen" is six, not LOTS. Six plus four is ten. Ten mages with Leareth. > >> He has the motive, means and oppertunity to collapse the Pass >>before Leareth knows what hit him. > >Once again, textevd needed. Argh. I'm gonna search again...still = >can't find it. Must be somewhere. But WHERE? Ditto on the request... You complain about my posts, but you apparently don't read them since I have been repeatedly providing the textevd for you. > >>That he already had. > >Leareth didn't underestimate him. If he underestimated he would have = >just attacked Van immediately instead of wasting his mages--and = >that's another thing. No, that does not follow. If you underestimate someone, you give him time to attack you first. It's the class villain error, and Leareth makes it, whether you want to see that or not. > At that point you have a choice: go with >>what you planned and force the characters into the pre-planned mold or go >>with what the characters would do and toss your outline. In LHM I think >>Misty took the first option, and I think that was a mistake. > >Wait--you find an ending in which Van hides away in Sorrows for = >another 90 or 100 years (he WAS a mage) while Stef visits every once = >in awhile as less contrived? Can you really see Van taking this fate = >well? He _needed_ to help his country--and, I think, there are better = >ways to than letting H-Ms die out. The only reason they needed to do = >that was because there weren't enough H-ms to go around--because = >Leareth was killing them off. Yes, I do think that is the ending that the character would have developed the plot into if Misty had stayed true to him. Yes, I can see Van taking this fate well because he _would_ be helping his country in the spot where it needed him most. And, no, we know from the later books the best way to help Valdemar was to let the H-Ms die out because that made Valdemar become dependent on mind magic instead of real magic so it wasn't hurting as badly as its neighbors when the storms hit. > >>not just someone (who >>wasn't even an eye witness) going to a scribe, reporting what happened and >>having the scribe write it down (medieval technology, remember? > >You forget. The Chornicler is a Herald. The people TRUST Heralds. I don't forget anything of the sort. The Chronicler was not standing in the Pass and did not see what happened. Even if he did, interview 200 eyewitnesses to an event and you will get 200 versions of what happened. Now, copy your favorite acount 700 or so times. Better yet, have roughly 100 different people copy your account. People who may or may not be able to read your handwriting. People. Not divinely perfect xerox machines. Humans who make mistakes. It happens. To say that it doesn't is simply not part of any reality that I've had contact with. > >>So why is it so unthinkable that he could have taken that break while >>remaining alive and while having occasional visits from Stef? > >Because Van had he Herald mind-set; he had to be actively helping the = >country or his life was pointless. And he would be actively helping his country in my scenario by actively defending Sorrows. I'm saying, "It has to be blue." And you're saying, "No, because it has to be blue." You seem to be so set on disagreeing with me that you can't see when I say something that agrees with your POV. > >"He died. The Dark Servants hacked him to pieces before help could = >arrive=8Byet he held them back long enough that his King was able to = >bring up an army in time to repel their invasion. But he still died, = >alone, and all the songs in the world won't change that." > >That's the Orientation Class, Danya. Not a novel. Vanyel died. She = >boxed herself in, all right. And, imo, for the good. Look at your own textevd. "hacked him to pieces before help could arrive." That Final Strike had nothing to do with the Dark Servants hacking anything. The story as Valdemar has it is already wrong. > >>It's a tacked on "happy ending" that I did not find any more satisfying = >that >>the wrap up of SB. She could have done better. > >And there we part, as I LIKED the ending of SB (except one element, = >and that wasn't characters...well...some characters. It wasn't the = >best ending, but it was pretty good). And, I liked the ending of = >MPrice. It wraps it up a hell of a lot better than your convoluted = >tale would have it, at least. If you liked the slap-dash ending of SB, I'm afraid there is absolutely no point in the two of us even trying to talk about what does or does not make a good ending because we have completely different notions of what makes for good writing. > >>The outline was set up that way. It could have been a great drama with a >>well-deserved happy ending for the main characters. Instead it has a = >forced >>tragic ending in which the author betrays her character in the name of an >>outline. > >No. The HISTORY wa set up that way. This was in her notes since = >before she started AotQ, I'd imagine. It has a quite nicely = >foreshadowed tragic ending in which the author uses her characters. = If you are going to hold her to her history, look again at your textevd above. "Hacked to bits," not "called down a Final Strike." There is a world of difference in those endings. And I haven't seen her notes, but I have seen interviews with her and Larry where they say that on the day they met they went back to his/her hotel room (I forget which one) and plotted out LHM together. My gut hunch, not having the precise dates handy, is that that happened after she wrote _Arrows_. >An author can't betray their characters. Characters are like puppets = >for the author to tell a tale, and what happened is what she wanted. Sigh. I would be interested to know if you write, and, if so, how much and of what. Misty herself has talked about this matter in interviews (you can read some comments about it in the interview that's linked to the Dragon*Con site). Plot grows out of characters; characters should not be forced to fit the plot. > >>No, no, no. I absolutely never, ever, ever said that Van would go back to >>Haven and teach mages. I have no idea where you got that notion. > >Except, of course, that he would have no reason not to go back to = >Haven. They needed, as I said above, to get rid of the "I want a = >H-M!" feeling because there were not enough to go around. THat's = >because Leareth killed 'em all. With Leareth gone, the mage = >population will resurface. If Van lived, he would have gone back to = >Haven, if only because of the Heraldic mind-set. > I've already answered this what feels like a million times. Apparently you aren't listening to me. >>Ma'ar was rather easy to stop, when you think about it: Gate in, drop a = >box >>at his feet, boom. Skan lived. > >And Urtho didn't. So? What does that have to do with the example? Skan is the one facing Ma'ar at that point, not Urtho. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:22:46 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Brvaes Considers FInal Striking In Order To Stop Van's Message-ID: <199611210822.AAA23179-+AT+-latimes.com> At 03:24 AM 11/21/96 GMT, Korendil wrote: >>The only grave situation that needed him to fix it was Sorrows. > >Oh? And what about the fact that there are no more Herald Mages? I think >having Van come back to Haven and continue on the Mages would work a LOT >better than a make-shift spell and a last-ditch effort 700 years later. >Think of Storms if there were still Herald Mages? They'd have a whole >take on magic different from everyone else--not just this new Artificer >stuff, which they aren't sure about and the lsit decided was totally >false a few weeks ago. But Van died. So the spell was needed. In the later books we are told that the reason Valdemar fares so well in the storms is because it does not have Mages. Same against several other of its enemies. The lack was crucial to the survival of the country. If Van had returned and trained mages, Valdemar would have been hurting as badly as the Empire, for instance. (Look through OBound and OBreakers for other examples.) > >>I don't mind that at all. In fact, that's how it should be. If the main >>character doesn't have to work hard, the story is boring. > >But that's just what you're giving: An easy way out (the cliffs), and a >happy no-loss ending (van lives in perfect contentment with Stef for the >rest of his years). Which WOULD, imo, make the story boring. Definitely >not as good as LHM turned out. Where do people keep getting this from? In my scenario, yes, the cliffs are easy because Misty put them there and made them that way. *But* Van lives in Sorrows, roving the forest, killing everyone of "evil intent" who enters--starting with any remnants of the army that escaped the rock slide, just as Van-in-spiritform did. Stef visits Van for a few months every year. The only two differences from Misty's version is that Van is alive and he gets to see Stef some of the time (which is better than none of the time in my book). > >> It's the >>message of hope that has endured. > >What else can you consider the very ending of Price to be, Danya? The ending of Price as it stands is the message that if you come up against something you can't handle, kill yourself. Don't even try to survive. Give up. Oh, and if you can take out the villain while you're at it, that's a little plus. And Van doesn't even really take out the villain because the same spirit is in another body, still slaughtering people 700 years later! > >If Van takes down the pass with the cliffs, then what cost exists? The >cost only enters when he Final Strikes. Um, how about all the cr*p he had to go through to get the point where he would be able to do that? How about not being able to settle down in a nice little cottage on the family estate and maybe raise some foster kids? How about not being able to be with Stef 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? By choosing one lifestyle, the price you pay is giving up all the others that could have been yours. By choosing to stay and be the magical defender of Sorrows, I feel that Van would still be paying a very stiff price. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:47:00 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: My Long Post On Whether Van Had To Die! Message-ID: <199611210847.AAA23510-+AT+-latimes.com> At 04:21 AM 11/21/96 GMT, Melanie Harris wrote: > When he first arrived, Leareth's army were forming up on the other side of >the mountains; yes, collapsing the pass would have delayed them a little bit, >but someone who had the power to cut that pass while shielding the magic from >the Herald-Mages certainly had the power to clear it quickly. How? Everyone here seems to think Leareth didn't have the power to Gate the army into Valdemar, yet you think he has the power to remove a mountain of rock from on top of himself and his army in the three days it's going to take the Valdemaran army to get there? How many years was he working on this Pass? I don't see him re-cutting it in three days. >the whole point of being there was to keep the army >out of Valdemar. If that is the point, then collapse the Pass before the army gets there. Van had the time. Seal it all up nice and pretty, stand on the Valdemar side in case something still comes through and send Stef for help as scheduled. Van didn't even try. Sure, they would have been >leaderless, but they would have been through into Valdemar well before the >Guard turned up to fight them, and I doubt they would have stayed leaderless >for long! Leareth recruited his army from barbarians and bandits; if they >found themselves in Valdemar, cut off from retreat and with their master >dead, at least some would decide "Fine - the boys will follow me; let's do >what Leareth wanted, except with *me* in charge!" They would have been well >into Valdemar, spread out and moving fast, by the time the Guard got the >warning. Vanyel's whole life was spent protecting Valdemar's people from that >sort of threat; he *couldn't* do that. Actually, history proves that when you take out the charismatic leader of an army made up of barbarians, the situation degenerates into petty feuds and tribal warfare. Take a look at fifth century Europe for a ton of examples. It's absolutely the fastest way to totally destroy an army of that nature. >Yes, Van certainly wanted >to live, for all the reasons you outlined, Danya - but he had exactly one >choice; Final Strike, killing Leareth and a lot of the soldiers, at which >point the Guard can take care of the rest of the army *and save Valdemar*, or >fight a mage-duel he's certainly going to lose, die, and have Master Dark and >his army walk all over the Guard and conquer Valdemar - at which point Stef >is almost certainly going to die horribly when they reach the guard post. And I disagree. Even if you insist on making Van fight up to that point, which I do not, Van still had _some_ power in the nodes. He was able to explode the trail and panic the army without even reaching for the nodes. Reach for the nodes, explode the base of the walls, and you've effectively taken care of Leareth and the army until help can arrive. In fact, you don't have bandits running through Sorrows because your Final Strike cleared a nice path for everyone who was safely at the back; you have a whole mountain-load of rubble that they cannot get through. > >The only way he'd have got out without them attacking him would be if they >all ran away when he killed their leader - but there were heaps of people >behind them who had to get the idea that turning around was the thing to do, >get turned around, and leave, and in the meantime the ones at the front would >be panicking. No, they can't come after him in the alternate scenario. Van is on the Valdemar side, they are not, and a pile of rubble--with Leareth and company under it, shielded or not--is between them. (b) I never saw it as "David and Goliath" - and if I had, I would >have been right ticked off if Misty had concluded it with "'David' wins. >Yay." I did creative writing as my elective major in University (not waving >it, just stating it, OK?) and all but one of my teachers said that one of >*their* Major Rules of Writing was to NOT give the readers what they expected >- to not be predictable. You and I have different ideas about what the major >Rules of Writing are, OK? Okay. But I do know the box office completely dies if you break a pattern like this in a movie (for instance, _Willow_). My professors seem to have had radically different ideas from yours, and I shall continue to follow the advice I received from mine since that's what works for me. > (c) *I* think it's a happy ending... besides, if he'd lived, I >think that he would have considered it his duty to go back to Haven and train >little Herald-Mages now that Leareth wasn't killing off all the kids with >potential. Sure he would have had reservations about "the people are >undervaluing 'ordinary' Heralds," but he would have done it anyway because >Valdemar needed everything it could get to throw at Karse... and there goes >the plot of Arrows, Winds and Storms... > And there you have the textevd against you, which I won't bother quoting again. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:49:18 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: characters Message-ID: <199611210849.AAA23533-+AT+-latimes.com> At 04:56 AM 11/21/96 GMT, JAIME HATHAWAY wrote: > Actually, that is a very interesting question. How many of us here >do have a registered persona with QO?> Okay. Since more than one person has asked, I do. I'm Herald-Mage Hedge Wizard Danya Winterborn of Queen's Own. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:47:27 -0500 (EST) From: skarzin-+AT+-soonet.ca To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Enough Already! Message-ID: <199611210847.DAA20572-+AT+-victory.soonet.ca> Greetings All! I have bravely decided to join the Van debate from a position of safety - the middle! With bows to both the Order of Amber and Marigold, and to Danya...you're _both_ right. Yes, Van had to die, for all the reasons you stated, because that's what felt right for you. Yes, Van should've survived, if that's what would have made trilogy thoroughly enjoyable for you, Danya. After all, there is no one true way. Maybe Misty can write _another_ trilogy. 1 1/2 books into it, Stef can wake up, and realize...it was all a dream! Van isn't really dead at all! Why am I posting this, you ask? For several very good reasons. 1. With every post that I read on this subject, I am inching ever closer to insanity. The two sides will never agree. 2. No one ever listens to me anyway, so I feel it's fairly safe. 3. I'm going away for the weekend, where no flaming coconut can find me. 4. I hold all your houseplants hostage! Please be nice to eachother while I'm gone. __ __/| \ -+AT+- -+AT+-_/ -+AT+-| \__ ____|____ \_-+AT+- |_________| | Regards, \ / -+AT+- Michele -+AT+- \_____/ -+AT+- Goddess of Botanical Blight ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:21:42 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Final thoughts on Van's death/sheep Message-ID: <199611210921.BAA23874-+AT+-latimes.com> At 06:21 AM 11/21/96 GMT, Hth. wrote: >What I object to is her assumption that "I would have enjoyed the story >more with a different ending" (speaking now about the content of the >ending, not its form) is *synonymous* with "Misty ended her story >wrong." Does all this make sense so far? This is rather hard to be >clear about; as Lee said, there are so many elements involved in this >thread that it's hard to keep everything sorted out. There we have a misunderstanding. These are two separate points. I do not "assume" that they are synonmous. My skills with story analysis tell me the Misty ended the story wrong. It also happens that I would have enjoyed a different ending more--one that did not have what I perceive to be a major flaw in an otherwise excellent series. > >This assumption, that the story should not have ended in Vanyel's death >(as distinct from the idea that the story should not have ended with >Vanyel dying in that way), is based on the idea that LHM was originally >designed to be a "classic David-and-Goliath" plot, and that she switched >gears suddenly at the end, depriving us of the classic David-and-Goliath >resolution. No, no. That's not what I said. LHM was originally designed to have Vanyel die. The "David and Goliath" business came in because Misty got to that point in her story and pumped Leareth's power up to one step below godhood for some inexplicable reason. Why not stay with the version of the story as she had it in _Arrows_? That at least would have worked. >Danya doesn't feel that way, which is fine. She liked other books >better, which is fine. But I can't help feeling a little bit defensive >when she says, in effect, "It's not that I didn't like the ending >because of my own personal tastes, it's because the ending sucked. I >don't know what you saw in it, but you obviously just don't get it, or >you'd agree with me." I don't agree. I think it is a matter of taste, >whether or not you are willing to accept a book that ends in the hero's >death, when the death is done well and in character -- I realize Danya >thought it wasn't, but her comments have implied to me that *even if it >had been,* she would not have been satisfied with Vanyel's death. If Misty had *really* placed Van in a no-win situation, I could have been satisfied. What I object to is that she placed him in a situation where he should have been able to win. I do not agree with you that the "death is done well and in characer." I think the death is done poorly and completely out of character. So there we agree to disagree. > >It's a little like (and I hope Danya doesn't mind me referencing some of >our private e-mail conversations here) Danya's feelings when someone >says about one of her characters, "But she should be more maternal," or >what have you. The author's instinctive response is, "Why? Because >that's what you expect her to be like? What if she's not a template -- >what if she is simply more complex than you expected her to be?" That's >how I feel when Danya says, "But it should have ended like David and >Goliath." It was Misty's decision to make Vanyel a brilliant tactician who blows his tactics, the most powerful Herald-Mage ever, only he's not in the same class with this villain I'm pulling out of my pocket. Misty undermined what she herself set up. With the character to which you are refering, I never, ever did anything to even remotely suggest that the charact was or ever would be maternal. There is a vast difference between the two points. > >Once more, to avoid confusion: I'm not talking about whether or not >Vanyel could have survived his situation. I'm talking about whether he >should have been placed in a situation where he would survive. And that is what frustrates me because Misty did place him in a situation where, except for the fact that she decided differently, he would have survived. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:09:16 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Valdemar as a Role Playing Game Message-ID: <9611211009.AA19244-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > Would anyone out there know if someone has managed to bring Misty's > Valdemar into a Role Playing system ie.. AD&D or even a Rifts setting? Official Word is that this is Frowned Upon, and is likely to result in Being Stomped By Lawyers.... Basically, it's a copyright violation, doesn't fall under the fair use exceptions (and "personal use" is not a valid exception anyway), and could potentially cause cause problems for Misty (cf MZB's problems). On the other hand, if you wanted to create a similar-but-different setting, it doesn't sound too difficult - Basically, all that needs tweaking are magic and mind powers, and that shouldn't be too hard - most of the mind powers are informational/communication rather than combat oriented, so shouldn't be too hard to model (since they probably don't need to be precisely balanced) - magic probably just needs extending to allow for external power sources where appropriate, and maybe adding something for shielding. -- _|_ Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) / | Hemel Hempstead, UK jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \_|_ jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) \__/ www.selune.demon.co.uk (soon) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 14:02:19 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! Message-ID: <9611211302.AA06408-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Hola, Ele asked: > On another subject: I have never read anything by Anne McCaffrey (sp??) > So, I am asking all and any of you: in what order should I read them? What > is the best book to start with? I know this has sod all to do with ML, but at least it's not whether you-know-who should have died, For Pern, you have to start with Dragonflight, I reckon. It was the first she wrote. Lemme think - the route I took, which served me pretty well from a comprehension point of view was: 1.Dragonflight 2.Dragonsong 3.Dragonsinger 4.Dragonquest 5.The White Dragon 6.Dragondrums Thats the basic grounding set. There's then a whole host of later books, none as good as the first lot, that you can pick up without worry overmuch about sequence. (I may have the Dragonsong/Dragonsinger the wrong way round - one is definitely the immediate sequel to the other ). from the above 6 books, numbers 2, 3, 4 and 5 overlap a lot in time and characters - but Dragonquest is more political, so takes a bit more interest than the others - so it helps to have the first 3 under your belt. You can also skip it without too much trouble. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Lady Silvermoon was askin' 'bout injured Heralds - well we do hear about them - but what about injured Companions? The only time I can recall a Companion being injured was Gwenna in one of the Winds books, when Falcon-whatsit's creature pinned her down. When freed, she staggers to her feet blood pouring, then just heals. Sooooooo, if a Companion survives whatever injury it incurs, can we assume that they just heal themselves? They're either dead (this parrot is ...... nah. mebbee not), or whole and alive? We also never hear of a Companion surviving it's Herald's death. Only what Sayvil/Savil says to Van when he's first chosen. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Lightstorm asked: > Out of curiosity, what was the first ML book y'all ever read? Arrows of the Queen, when it first appeared in paperback. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Lady Becky was explaining Abraham 'n Isaac to Kerry, > Okay, commiting the act would have been evil, but God didn't let him go > ahead and commit the act, he told him to stop. He never had any intention > of actually letting him kill Isaac, he was just seeing if he would, kinda > like playing mind games in a way. It was a test of faith, and I guess > he passed. To force someone to chose between their faith and their child, then turn around like it was some practical joke, "Gotcha that time, you really believed me, didn't you?", is downright wicked. It was a lousy way to test a faith, and if it had been me I'd of told him to bugger off and become a Buddhist. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Yay, Michele - I'm with you > Maybe Misty can write _another_ trilogy. 1 1/2 books into it, Stef can wake > up, and realize...it was all a dream! Van isn't really dead at all! Or the lot who rescue Lazarus Long at the end of Time Enough for Love can swoop down, carry him off to the future, let him have lots of sex with hithertoo unknown offspring and underage children, then pop him back, all fine 'n dandy? (Jake - we need some comedy here - puhleese - the top ten alternate ways to top Van???? ;> (weg!) ciao ciao Esmeralda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:01:43 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: lissa/bardic voices/QO/adresses/oathblinded Message-ID: <199611211358.AA143554736-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> >Okay, let's talk about the Bardic Voices books for a while, we tend to >concentrate on Valdemar and such. Remember how everyone was required to >pay a tax and a tithe everyday? Is that something Misty made up out of >her head, or is there some historical basis in it? Out of all her novels, >I like those the best. They so much like fairytails. Of course I've still >only read tL&tW, does firebird sell the other two books? I haven't seen >them at my Barnes & Noble recently. Historically, taxes and tithes had to be paid, although not necessarily on a daily basis. Usually, such things were paid yearly or seasonally. Most times, the payees weren't too happy about paying the church all of the time. As for the Bardic Voices, the bookstores here in Chicago still carry them. Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 972 *********************************