MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 973 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 2) Van by Melanie Dymond Harper 3) Re: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 4) Re: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! by Becky Anne Christensen 5) Personae/Recruitment/AGH!/Sigs by Clarissa Smith/Claris Boii 6) Dragon*Con questions by Joan Ferguson 7) Thoughts on Death (Vanyel's and Others') by Katherine M Brielmaier 8) by Wyrick D TSgt CS/SCBC 9) Re: MAXIBRAID: nearly everything :) by DawnRain 10) Final Stab/TDC - apology/monogamy/characters/Winter/BDays by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 11) Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari by DawnRain 12) firebird/godhood/The Great Vanyel debate by Sean 13) Bards as Heralds/ Good G*d!! by Rose 14) Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel by DawnRain 15) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) by DawnRain 16) bye for a bit by "Emily L Cartier" 17) bi the way/stefen/fate by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 18) Falconsbane/sortof-comment on the Van-debate by Khenta Blaufalk 19) Re: Reply to: those pesky Pelagirs by Charles Stevens 20) The Great Debate by GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:20:13 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! Message-ID: <199611211420.GAA26540-+AT+-latimes.com> At 01:28 PM 11/21/96 GMT, dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: >Hola, > >Ele asked: >> On another subject: I have never read anything by Anne McCaffrey (sp??) >> So, I am asking all and any of you: in what order should I read them? What >> is the best book to start with? > >For Pern, you have to start with Dragonflight, I reckon. It was the first >she wrote. Lemme think - the route I took, which served me >pretty well from a comprehension point of view was: >1.Dragonflight 2.Dragonsong 3.Dragonsinger 4.Dragonquest 5.The White Dragon >6.Dragondrums There are several different orders, one of which is reccommended by Anne. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure Weyrharper Anissah of Sunfall Weyr (the McCaffrey fanclub I belong to) does know it by heart. She can tell you, if you message her at Hithui-+AT+-oxy.edu and ask. > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >Lightstorm asked: >> Out of curiosity, what was the first ML book y'all ever read? > >Arrows of the Queen, when it first appeared in paperback. Magic's Pawn. > Danya ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:36:30 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: Van Message-ID: <199611211436.OAA08830-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Look, the Van debate here seems to be generating some heat, little light, and is beginning to light up my 'bad feelings' monitor. Okay, I think we know where we all stand on it now; can we please, if not drop the subject completely, at least make sure we're not reiterating the same points several times. (And no, there is no requirement to have the last word on a mailing list.) I thank you. Your everloving Listmistress ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:35:54 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! Message-ID: <481C0727C8-+AT+-future.judson.edu> > We also never hear of a Companion surviving it's Herald's death. Only > what Sayvil/Savil says to Van when he's first chosen. I think a Companion can survive its herald's death, cause doesn't Fandes tell van that if he dies she will avenge his death before she comes to him? Jacquelle Ex astris, scientia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:04:15 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Pern/injured Companions/1st ML/enough/Jake - we need you! Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > Lady Becky was explaining Abraham 'n Isaac to Kerry, > > Okay, commiting the act would have been evil, but God didn't let him go > > ahead and commit the act, he told him to stop. He never had any intention > > of actually letting him kill Isaac, he was just seeing if he would, kinda > > like playing mind games in a way. It was a test of faith, and I guess > > he passed. > > To force someone to chose between their faith and their child, then turn > around like it was some practical joke, "Gotcha that time, you really believed > me, didn't you?", is downright wicked. It was a lousy way to test a faith, > and if it had been me I'd of told him to bugger off and become a Buddhist. > I knew someone would bring that up. Darn. Well, I wish I could remember my really nifty neat-o explanation. but darn it I can't. :( You're absolutely right, it does seem ridiculous, I burst out laughing, then had to explain why to my dad, who just gave me this *look*. :) *--------------------Lady Becky of the Hills--------------------* |Goddess of Tofu and Dry Breakfast Cereals | |Handmaiden of Procrastination | |Lady in Green | |Founder of the AftPoSWT (confused? Just ask.) | |Mailing List Homepage http://www.psnw.com/~deb/becky/misty.html| |beckyanne-+AT+-iforge.com | *---------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:20:38 -0600 (CST) From: Clarissa Smith/Claris Boii To: Mercedes Lackey fanlist Subject: Personae/Recruitment/AGH!/Sigs Message-ID: Yes, I'm way behind on everything. To tell the truth, I haven't been terribly motivated to try to catch up, either. I have a persona with QO too...just never figured out what the HECK we're supposed to do with them *now*. ;) Herald Rythkana Trystandorien, with (err, can't remember!) Mindspeech, Foresight, and Farsight, I THINK; Companion Skaile. At your service *bow*... I do have Herald-Mage potential, but darned if I have the RL time to follow up on it! Poor Rythkana, sitting around for three years with mage potential...bet her roommates are not amused... Hey! I want to be a Knight of Amber and Marigold! Partly because it sounds so spiff ;) and partly because *grrrrrr* I'll defend Van to my fiery death! (by flaming, that is.) ^_^ I know it's late, may I squeeze in anyway? And no, this is _not_ an indication that I'm taking "sides" in the Great Debate. We're all on the same side: We read Misty! Right? I am SO tired of the Van's Death debate. I thought it was interesting at first, but a number of people are being rather intransigent in their own positions and dismissive of others' positions. Personally, I liked it for the heartwrench, which I can go in for once in a while; was slightly annoyed by its suddenness; mildly disturbed at leaving Stef all alone; etc. But that's how it was written and that's how I'm going to deal with it now. BTW, if you are using UNIX, you do not need a fancy-schmancy e-mail program with a .sig option to make a sig. ;) I'll be happy to tell anyone how, just private email me. (It's simple, just don't want to take up list space with it) ****************************************************************************** Claris/Clarissa Smith (ccsmith-+AT+-comp.uark.edu) On-campus .sig file Art/History Major * all in green went my love riding, Sf/fantasy/graphic artist * on a great horse of gold, into the silver dawn. GM & game writer * -- e.e.cummings http://comp.uark.edu/~ccsmith/ ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:26:56 -0500 From: Joan Ferguson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Dragon*Con questions Message-ID: <199611211626.LAA09288-+AT+-elmer.Harvard.EDU> Not to change the subject or anything ... or to be off-topic in any way (but not really, since Misty will be there) ... but who here is already planning on attending Dragon*Con? I'm toying with the idea - money and time-off still a consideration, but the idea seems more possible as time goes on. So, here are my (hopefully not stupid or redundant) questions. Have you all organized amongst yourselves yet (those listees attending the Con)? Registered, and have made hotel reservations? Are any of you going to that "Guests of Honor" banquet? Anyone iterested in (possibly) sharing a room? (I may be able to convince my gf to come along (if we're still together - *long* story) because we're both Indigo Girls fans and would love to be in Atlanta anyway :-) I've never been to a Con before (*gasp*), and would love to chat with people who are also Con newbies and also those who are veterans. We could do this privately, so as to keep the noise down. Thanks much! -Joan (hoping to be the Goddess of the Web (explanation forthcoming from Cennyd), since Lurking is taken) joan_ferguson-+AT+-harvard.edu Harvard University Library Preservation Office "Instead of loving your enemies,treat your friends a little better." -Edgar Watson Howe (1853-1937) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:33:31 -0600 (CST) From: Katherine M Brielmaier To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Thoughts on Death (Vanyel's and Others') Message-ID: I've been following the Vanyel argument fairly closely, and while I side with those who think Misty served her Muse well, and did the only thing for Vanyel that the story would let her do, I don't really want to mess with that. I'm more interested in the sort of side-thread that's been going on with Death, and the Havens, and the idea of Karmic Retribution. No braiding, sorry, but the threads have gotten so complex that I'm just going to do a mini-essay and call it good. One of the central themes in legends, as Heather said, is that idea of sacrifice. The idea that something must be given up in order to ensure your happiness, or, more to the point, others' happiness. In LHM, Misty serves this theme well, giving us a main character who has incredible gifts, but a very human soul--one capable of feeling loss, but of tasting joy as well. The Karmic Retribution comes in different forms in the series: 1) when Van's channels are blasted open, he receives the Bardic Gift; 2) when Tylendel dies and the lifebond is broken, I believe the Gods gave him Stef both to repay Vanyel for the pain of surviving a lifebond (something that has been shown to be excruciating) and to give Tylende's soul another turn on the Wheel, another chance for redemption(*); and *if anyone wonders why I think Tylendel needed redemption, go ahead and e-mail me privately. 3) when Van is, at last, granted Death. I am not one of those who sees Life as a curse, as something to be survived until I can at last reach Heaven, or the Havens, or whatever you choose to call it. Life is not punishment. But for Vanyel, I think his life had become more of a trap than anything else. He spent his life serving Valdemar's needs, and he could have easily gone on to do just that until he died of old age, but he was tired, and in pain, and in the end he wanted rest, more than anything else. Van's life was painful. His childhood was relatively lonely, he grew up feeling unwanted and out of touch. When he met Tylendel, he had a few months of happiness (always tempered by the fact that he could never admit who he was, or who he loved), but then Tylendel was taken away. And Van was made a Herald, "doomed" to spend his life in the service of Valdemar. As a Herald, he was given Yfandes, and power, but he was also alone, painfully so. Even when Stef showed up, it was balm for his sore soul, but it never changed the fact that he was essentially alone. The line in Magic's Pawn, about the Gods taking with one hand, and offering pittance in compensation, sums up Vanyel's life, for me. He gave, and gave, and gave, in the beginning not because he wanted to, but because he had to. And in the end, because there was no other way of life for him. To my mind, the only real gift the Gods gave him was his Death. He was, finally, allowed to die. Allowed to give up his struggle with himself, and with the world, and with his soul's talents, and rest. If anyone has watched someone die, after a long illness, or in great pain, then you know what I'm talking about. In the end, you pray they'll die quickly, because then, finally, their pain will be ended. Life is a gift, but so is Death. When Misty allowed Vanyel to die, allowed the story to go the way it wanted to, and resisted the happy ending, she served not only her Muse, but the character, and all of us. 's e do bheatha, Kaatje ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 08:30:00 PST From: Wyrick D TSgt CS/SCBC To: mercedes-lackey Message-ID: <32948405-+AT+-smtpgw.beale.af.mil> Lady Becky of the Hills said: >>Oh yeah, and anyone who would feel comfortable doing so, could I >>please have your mailing adress? I promise I won't put it on a web page, >>or give it to anyone, but christmas is coming, and I want to be able to >>send christmas cards to you guys. :) Send it private e-mail, no need to >>clutter the list up. Thank you very much!!!!!! Just a quick note. I know that a lot of you have an trail that shows you the actual originator of a message. Unfortunately, not all of us do and the sender always shows as the list processor (i.e. mercedes-lackey). This makes private replies impossible unless you include your personal e-mail address in your post. Dan wyrickd-+AT+-cs9bncc.beale.af.mil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:55:14 -0700 From: DawnRain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MAXIBRAID: nearly everything :) Message-ID: <32948972.6223-+AT+-geocities.com> Eleonora Scoseria wrote: > And I would like to point out: > > Yes, I see your point, and I remember the incident, but I think the > situations are different. > When Van was a kid it probably would not have mattered much, and also, Savil > had a relatively strong reason for testing him that way (she was very > concerned about detecting potential mage candidates), whereas now she was > convinced Van did not have Gifts that would get him Chosen. > So testing him now, would only add to Van's feeling of 'strangeness'. Even > though Savil is not too good with people (according to her), she realises > from the first that Van is defensive, and thinks it is possibly due to the > treatment he has received. > How would any one of us react to having someone inside our heads in order to > see if we have the Bardic Gift, when it was perfectly possible and even > desarable to have him play for the Bards in order to know? I feel it would > have been sort of like ordering a CAT scan or a magnetic resonance scan for > a sprained ankle, when a plain X-Ray or even a physical examination would do ;) I can see that too, but I maintain that having Van sing before the class was more to prove to him that he didn't have the gift than to really find out. Breda did so as a favor to Savil, since he was dead-set on the music "enough to defy a fairly formidable father". I think they were already very sure he didn't have it but he had to hear it for himself. Just my opinion, as ever... :) Star ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 12:33:32 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Final Stab/TDC - apology/monogamy/characters/Winter/BDays Message-ID: <199611211745.MAA06602-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Danya wrote: >How? Everyone here seems to think Leareth didn't have the power to Gate the >army into Valdemar, yet you think he has the power to remove a mountain of >rock from on top of himself and his army in the three days it's going to >take the Valdemaran army to get there? How many years was he working on >this Pass? I don't see him re-cutting it in three days. Actually, I don't think anyone was questioning whether he had the power, but whether he'd be able to conceal his actions. First off, gates play havoc with the weather as Savil tells us time and again. Secondly, he should get picked up by the Web. >Actually, history proves that when you take out the charismatic leader of an >army made up of barbarians, the situation degenerates into petty feuds and >tribal warfare. Take a look at fifth century Europe for a ton of examples. >It's absolutely the fastest way to totally destroy an army of that nature. Ayah! (that's an agreement, not a war cry) Not only was Leareth the "charismatic leader," but he was also controlling them magically, fuelling their anger, blood-lust, etc. like Ancar does later on. Also, many of the men probably remember the tale of what he did to that guy who displeased him -- you know, the guy upon whose liver the vultures feast all day and he's healed every night. If he wasn't, then one of his pet mages was. If none of them were, then Misty didn't come up with that idea until a bit later. Anyway, if Leareth is controlling them magically, when he dies the army would go completely crazy. They would suddenly lose their focus and motivation and become bewildered cows. If it was one of his mages controlling them, he'd probably be dead too, and the same scenario would occur. It would be just like Leareth to have shunts in him to his mages so that anything that hit him would only hurt his pet mages. But yeah, nobody would be together enough to take charge once Leareth was dead. You'd have a lot of potential, and the slightest spark could set them off in any direction. >One more comment like this, and Danya will be leaving the list. Danya, please don't leave. We appreciate your input on this list, and sometimes nerves run high and people shoot from the hip without taking the time to aim or ask questions. Good battle habits, but THIS IS NOT A DUEL! Korendil, be more polite! You are seriously starting to get out of order with some of your comments! I continued ranting here, but then caught myself and erased it and am now filling in with some filler, because I'm still trying to think of a way to make this sound half-way polite. I think it was Heather who had this suggestion a while ago. If not, well, forgive me . When you write a post, let it sit for half an hour or so. Check and see if anyone has already said what you wanted to, and see if you still feel as vehement as you did when you wrote the post. $^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^ Okay, seeing as people still seem to be scared of this subject coming up again, I'm regurgitating what I last said. I misunderstood the textual explanation for the phenomenon, and we spent a lot of time basically explaining just how there can be many points of intersection and describing the pattern they followed and so on. We basically reinforced and hopefully explained in better, clearer, and more understandable detail just what Misty was trying to explain in her books. I'm still proud of being a Blue and look forward to seeing some of you others in the Rose. $^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^ Here's some textevd about monogamy. It's from when Amberdrake is giving in to some self pity and thinking to himself about how he's so alone. Black Gryphon, Paperback, p. 171: When--best say, *if*--a kestra'chern ever found a mate, it was nearly always someone from within the ranks of the kestra'chern. No one else would understand; no one else would ever be able to tolerate sharing a mate with others. So it looks like this argues against me. Well, I'm still giving it to you, but it doesn't change my opinion on the whole "married, not dead" thing. (I agree with Cenn and his parents, in case you don't remember) $^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^ Belrex said: >Does anyone have a registered character with the Queen's Own. Not yet, but I'm working on them. I've got quite a few in the woodworks, but I just need to get their stories down on paper. The other qualifications are a snap. $^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^ Winter said: >Apologies if I'm being incohearent, or have stepped on any rules--I told >Deniz I would lurk and learn the lay of the land until I had something to >say, and then of course I almost immediately had something to say. (It's >also 1:30 in the morning and I wrote all evening, so I'm in a bit of a >state.) Damn *straight* you did. Imagine my surprise when I found your addy attached to a list topic. No, you haven't stepped on any rules, but I think you *just* missed out on Auntie Mel's posting FAQ part 1, but the rest will come after she comes back from her weekend out. No fair. Ele asked about the sheep and Kory and Heather actually explained! I was enjoying making explanations up, and think I was just starting to get the hang of it. Now, it's been explained to all us newbies. What mystery is left in this world or on this list now? $^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^$^ Welcome to all newbies, and in case you haven't noticed my sig, I'm the Holy Custodian of the Birthday List. That means that you can send me your birth date (year and private addy optional), I'll add you to my list, and then warn everybody when it's coming up. We all put on our thinking caps and get wonderful gifts ready. It's a lot of fun, too. Speaking of which, I need a volunteer for someone to coordinate the birthdays between Dec. 21 and Jan. 3, or so. I'll be home in Saudi Arabia, where I don't have internet access. Somebody, anybody? love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:55:20 -0700 From: DawnRain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's death/ yet another oops!/Enchanted caffine & vari Message-ID: <32949788.6455-+AT+-geocities.com> Kat wrote: > > I never said Van would toss aside his duty. I just don't think his duty was > > to die; I think that was a side effect of the way Misty chose to have him do > > the job. His duty was to defeat Leareth, which I think he could have done. > > His duty was to make Valdemar no longer reliant on Herald-Mages, so, had he > > lived, his duty would have been to withdraw. And his duty was to defend > > Valdemar through Sorrows, which I think he could have done and stayed alive > > while doing it. > > Hmmmm.. In theory I agree with you. Van didn't have to die, > there were other ways to take care of what he did. I don't know if I > would have been satisfied as a reader witht that ending, but I agree that > he didn't have to die and.. Well, what he did, while being glorious, > honorable and all toghether self-sacrificing... was kind of stupid. It's > like Van was saying to all of those peacocks he hung out with before > Tylendel, It may have been honorable, but it was still stupid. > > Kat > Priestess of Karma To stick my little two cent's in(sorry, can't resist) If Van didn't die and protect Sorrows that way, he wouldn't have been able to later protect Talia and Kris from the trees falling on them, or help Elspeth and co. with Falconsbane. He became more effective for a longer period of time the way it worked. Just my little thought... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:04:30 -0800 (PST) From: Sean To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: firebird/godhood/The Great Vanyel debate Message-ID: <199611211804.KAA24523-+AT+-popserver4.Stanford.EDU> I recently got firebird and read it. I thought it was really good..much better than most of the stuff that Misty has been writing lately. I was rather disappointed in her when I didn't find one mention of anyone being hit over the head with a board though. ;-) Okay, I've finally gotten brave enough to do my little bid for godhood. Does anyone know if there is a god of the woods yet? If there isn't I humble beg to be admited to the pantheon with that title. Please Cen? I've been following the great Vanyel debate with a lot of interest and while I think it is very interesting it seems like nobody is ever going to agree and things seem to be getting a little personal (I saw something Danya posted about leaving the list and since I've always found her posts to be interesting I really don't want to see that happen!) I know I lurk most of the time so I may not have the right to ask this...but maybe it is a good idea to drop this? Esmerelda said: >(Jake - we need some comedy here - puhleese - the top ten alternate ways to top Van???? ;> (weg!)< *grin* I'm not sure if you know how this sounds to a gay american male! It might be an INTERESTING list...but I'm not sure if it would be appropriate for the family nature of the channel! (of course it could just be I have a dirty mind ) Anyone who doesn't get it feel free to e-mail me privately for a explanation obmisty: Not sure if I really need one since I mentioned Firebird but....I once heard that Misty was thinking about another book with Tarma and Kethry about them and their school. Does anyone know if that is ever going to happen (I know BTS could be considered this way...but I got the impression it was going to be when they actually had more than two students! I'd love to see Misty get away from the Heralds a little bit! herewiss-+AT+-leland.stanford.edu "I am the creature of the wood, forsaken in my solitude. My song is pleasure and is pain, my song can drive a man insane. So come with me my pipes I'll play and we will dance to break of day." Creature of the Wood-Heather Alexander-Life's Flame ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:19:42 -0500 From: Rose To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Bards as Heralds/ Good G*d!! Message-ID: <32949D3E.162D-+AT+-ctol.net> >I think Stef was not a Herald simply because he had the Bardic Gift. >Remember, Healers and Bards aren't Chosen because their talents are too >valuable? I don't think it's so much that their talents are too valuable, that's like saying Heralds are second rate. But rather that they, the individual person, will be able to make a better contributin to the world if he is a Bard or a Healer. Think about Talia. If she had all that empathy, and was not chosen, and did not have that family, would she have been a Healer? Jadus was Chosen, I think, in order to save the king's (IIRC) life during the Tedrel wars. And Stef was not Chosen because he was going to be neede to convince people that Heralds were good without the Mage gift. These peoples paths lead them live out theilives in full. If Jadus had not been Chosen, or if Stef had been, then the history of Valdemar and Velgarth would be very diferent. >aHEM...Judeo-Christain Old Testament. Us Jews made it, Xians added = >their stories on to it. And the whole thing with sacrificing Isaac = >(NOT his only son, just the only one that wasn't exiled or whatever = >happened to Ismael or wtf his name was) was to show obediance to God = >and not question what he said. It _would_ have been an evil one--by = >today's standards. From what I've recently learned (in my conversion class:) the whole sacrificing thing was to show that G*d did _not_ want the kind of child sacrifice that was being practiced in the ambiant culture that Abraham lived in. There were nicer ways of going about it, but not many that would have driven home a point so strongly. So maybe G*d was being cruel to be kind. Scaring the heck out of three people in order to save generations of first born children from being sacrficed in thanksgiving to G*d. Isn't that a bit like how the stareyed operates. She doesn't give help unless the person exhausts all other possibilities or that she cruelly allows a person to suffer through something in order for themto learn what their true abilities are. If you're looking for "bad" deities, what about the Mesopotamian creation story with Bel Marduk killing his mother, Tiamat? Dyana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:25:02 -0700 From: DawnRain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid (sort of): Vanyel Message-ID: <32949E7E.7370-+AT+-geocities.com> Linda Malcor, Ph.D wrote: > I think Stef was not a Herald simply because he had the Bardic Gift. > Remember, Healers and Bards aren't Chosen because their talents are too > valuable? But Stef _was_ a Herald as 'Lendel, and I don't think what made > him a Herald in that life went away in the next one. I think if Van asked > him to pretend and it meant a lot to Van that Stef would have done it. Mmph. As someone else pointed out, Jadus was chosen from Bardic. Talia had a trace of Bardic gift. Shavri(although she IS an exception) had Healing. Van himself had Bardic, and a trace of Healing. I think Stef wasn't chosen either because he didn't have any of the other gifts, or because of some Karmic thing. Star ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:33:13 -0700 From: DawnRain To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) Message-ID: <3294A069.3D0D-+AT+-geocities.com> Kat wrote: > No kidding. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing more female shaych > characters. (I know, I know they are in the Arrows books). I like Van > and I like Firesong and I like... (You get the point) but I would like > mroe female shaych characters. Have there been any bi characters in > Velgarth that we know of? I can't think of any off the top of my > head.... Something like... There was Nevis. The girls talking about Tylendel liking boys "Nevis--wasn't he the one who couldn't make up his mind /which/ he liked and claimed he'd been seduced every time he crawled into somebody's bed?" Tashi asked in rapt fascination. "The very same," Reva told her. So on so forth... does he count as bi? Star ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:02:57 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: bye for a bit Message-ID: <9611211905.AA17955-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> I'm going back home on Friday and I will be putting the list on postpone. I'll be able to check the digests because my parents have internet acess, but I won't be replying to any private email until I get back (in about a week). When I come back here I will have brought more of my books so I will finally be able to give better textevd :-0. I kind of think it would be a good idea to table the Vanyel thread too. I like Danya's posts and she has a very different look at Our Reason For the List, and it would be a pity if we lost all those differences. The thread has been very interesting, but I don't want to chase Danya from the list because she feels like we all hate her. Has anyone read any new and truly fabulous books lately? I think it might be good to add to the book suggestion list. It's hard to have a bitter arguement about what books should go on our non-Misty reading lists . I keep sitting here, trying to think of a good, on topic Misty comment. Hmm... I got it! How does Bardic magic work in the urban fantasies and does it fit in with the Grand Unified Theory of Misty Magick? Now answer _that_ elf ! Emily the invisible ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 14:08:22 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: bi the way/stefen/fate Message-ID: <199611211920.OAA00375-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Star wrote: >Kat wrote: > >> No kidding. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing more female shaych Ditto, ditto, ditto. >> characters. (I know, I know they are in the Arrows books). I like Van >> and I like Firesong and I like... (You get the point) but I would like >> mroe female shaych characters. Have there been any bi characters in >> Velgarth that we know of? I can't think of any off the top of my >> head.... > >Something like... There was Nevis. >The girls talking about Tylendel liking boys >"Nevis--wasn't he the one who couldn't make up his mind /which/ he liked >and claimed he'd been seduced every time he crawled into somebody's >bed?" Tashi asked in rapt fascination. >"The very same," Reva told her. > >So on so forth... does he count as bi? No, I don't think so. Actually, it irritates me a bit that bi's are perceived as not being able to make up their mind or wanting the "best of both worlds." Not true. I'm mightily restraining myself from expounding, so you're lucky. *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*& About why Stefen wasn't chosen: Sure, he had all three gifts for Bardic, but people seem to be forgetting the most important qualification -- character. Stefen was self-centered and knew it. Remember how he almost didn't realize how what he did to get the amber mage-stone for Van was wrong? Sure, he improved as he got to know Van better, but it would take quite a bit of change for him to get to the stage where he would be chosen. But Van died before then, giving him a task to do as a Bard. &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&* Dyana said: >Jadus was Chosen, I think, in order to save the king's (IIRC) life during the >Tedrel wars. You know, this is starting to sound an awful lot like those pre-destination threads again. I don't want to think about fate. I have finals starting in a week. I'm not up to it! If you feel strong enough, carry on. Here's the question (or at least, my version): Misty seems to be a proponent of free-will(take a gander at Elspeth in Winds). Why then, does it seem like her Companion-Herald bondings are "meant to be." Why did 'Fandes run alone for 10 years before choosing Van? Why did Rolan know to bring a Grove-born Companion for Elspeth? Why was Alberich's Companion all the way in Karse to choose him? The list goes on... I just wanted to say that Rolan probably erased Talia's memory of Gwena being Grove-Born, because the only GB has been the MO's Companion, and they didn't want to tip off to everyone how special they think Elspeth is. love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:23:09 +0100 (CET) From: Khenta Blaufalk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Falconsbane/sortof-comment on the Van-debate Message-ID: Ele wrote re my post on Falconsbane: > I believe Falconsbane had very sound reasons to hate the gryphons, since he > had been royally (and deservedly) scr%&$d by one of them (Skan) in the event > that lead to his death as Ma'ar, apart from all his previous plans having > been upset by gryphons. It is understandable that with further incarnations > his hatred might have increased since he is repeatedly cheated of his revenge. > Oy. You're right of course. I hadn't thought of it that way, I'd thought that Ma'ar already was nursing this hatred of gryphons. Well, I guess this just proves that BG didn't make an overly impressive impression -- no, gotta rephrase that, incomplete vocabulary striking again, where the -+AT+-!!??-+AT+--+AT+- is my dictionary -- ok, a very strong impression on me. It had it's highlights, but it's nothing that lingers in my memory. ==================================================================== Rainwood writes re Danya's comment on the OAM: > The point all of "Van's dubious champions" > (and I am one of them) are making is that according to Misty, that IS > the way he died, that is the way she wrote it, end of story, end of > debate - out of all the possible endings, she chose this one. Finito. Ho there, wait a minute. I thought that's what we are here for, discussing her work. This is still a discussion list. Although I stopped to follow that Van-debate at some point (hey, if you want him, you can have him; LHM is probably the best she's ever written, but HE doesn't do much for me) and think that it went just a bit out of whatever-the-expression-is with everybody just kindof repeating their arguments and getting a bit snippy, this is still what this list exists for. I do not say that the OAM should do this or that to defend their hero. I do say that Danya has a right to state her position, tossing it into the arena to be debated. She does not deserve to be bashed for her opinion, and nobody has the right to say that she shouldn't think that Misty fouled up the plot of MPrice. //rant off// :) btw, Rainwood, this isn't meant to attack you personally, your post just triggered it (it is meant as a response to everybody who contributed to that thread). And if anybody thinks this is a flame, you're plain wrong. I am expressing my opinion (in a civilized manner as I think) and I'm not going to excuse for that. ==================================================================== Walk in beauty Khenta Blaufalk aka Skyfire & Aar Goddess of Incomplete Vocabulary and Garbled Grammar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:28:38 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Stevens To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Reply to: those pesky Pelagirs Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Linda Malcor, Ph.D wrote: > At 04:16 PM 11/19/96 GMT, Rozanna McNeer wrote: > >>the Pelagir Hills are NORTH of Lake Evendim, almost on par with Sorrows, > >>up by the Ice Wall Mountains. Now look at the map in the hardback > >>version of STORM RISING. The Pelagir hills are SOUTH of Lake Evendim > >>(in fact, they are south of Rethwellan). Oops. Either the hills are > teleporting > >>around the world, or someone blew the geography--which makes me leary of > >>any arguments having to do with geography between LHM and the later > >>books. > > > >Actually, if you look on the map, there are still some Pelagirs around Evendim > >as well. > > Um, I AM looking at the map in _Magic's Price_ (yes, you folks actually got > me to dig out the books), and the only Pelagir Hills I see are North of Lake > Evendim. K'Treva Vale and k'Sheyna Vale are also North of Lake Evendim, > with k'Vala Vale and k'Chona Vale South, near the border of Rethwellan. > That does not put the Vales anywhere near the Dhorisha Plains. > > Danya > But the Teledras(sp?) move the vales after they've drained an area, so some of them could have moved south to the plains. "there is a way around every problem, and if there isn't a way around it, there is a way through it." -gryphon- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:50:00 -0600 (CST) From: GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK Subject: The Great Debate Message-ID: <961121135000.22c0b8fb-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu> I've had several thoughts on this as its been going on, but didn't s see a need to jump in since I hate arguments. First I dip my horn to clear the poisons from the waters of debate. Danya, no flame, I don't believe in it, its bad for forests, remember we all promised not to wave credentials around after the Great Escape Blowout? Aunti Mel would not approve, it escallates things like putting out a campfire with gasoline. Now, I agree with Danya that there are alot of hypothetical endings to MPrice that would have been true to the story and to Vanyel. I also agree that the story seems to be meant to be a tragedy ala Romeo and Juliet (the kept waking up just to see the other one die) or Hamlet- none of whom deserved to die in my book. I didn't think this was fair at all or made any sense for them to die. For the record, I hate unhappy endings and refuse to read books or watch movies that I KNOW before hand have unhappy endings. I also agree with Becky that without visual cues that things can get really misconstrued. Please Danya don't leave the list, I admire your views as much as Heather's essays. I hadn't even thought about how or why MPrice should end before you brought your ideas to forum, you really made me think and convinced me from a writer's point of view. Kory, as Goddess of Elves(not including you) I cannot censure you but say saddly, I am ashamed that you were so cruel to one who is computerly handicapped, would you be so harsh to your caffienely handicapped bretheren? :) Per your textevd Kory, as someone else brought up: Vanyel didn't have to die in final strik, it said he was hacked to Death-so he could have killed Leareth, collapsed the Pass, killed the mages as he did in Tachir's country with backlash, but then have been overrun in the next three days by the sheer number of piople coming over hte old pass or over the rubble- by then having truly exhausted himself. (or his Death, as recorded could have happened as a totally different Pass and a different time where he was overcome and hacked to peices.) One of the reasons I think he didn't collapse the walls originally was that he was concerned about the soldiers who were mind-controlled and therefore might be construed as innocent. Later, he must destroy them in order to get Leareth. As for physical attackes- I think he was afraid of falling into the same trap he nearly fell for with Krebain by getting too close. Just like when you get burned with a fire, you are overly careful with matches even if you are quite capable of handling them later on. On him living but staying in the Forest, I must agree his nature wouldn't allow him to do that. But, if he had burned out his mage gift defeating Leareth, then been just a "plain old" Herald, he could have promoted Heralds in Haven himself. And Valdemar would not have suffered in the Storms. And no longer having the mage gift, he could not teach other new mages. But I guess that doesn't solve why a Mage was needed on the border of the Sorrows. Uh, Willow? What was wrong with Willow? Dan - I think it was not meant the way you took that. (another case of misconstrued message do to no tonal clues) They meant that Iftel is covered in the Storm Books and if you kept reading you would find the story you sought. As others have said Gino, there are no more books about Kory as of yet, but there are more books about Elves: Born to Run, When the Bough Breaks, Wheels of Fire and Chrome Circle.. they are Great! Among my Fav! Well, to finish up..Danya I am staunchly on your side, unicorn legions drawn up to defend you from more uncalled for jabs,' and hopefully a little elven humor to lighten your load and make your day a little brighter. (Even though you are annoyed with me because I talk about goddess fluff, I won't hol it against you as I honestly enjoy your insights and experience in the writer's craft. As Evangelist of Low Humor, may I suggest the top 10 endings we would like to have seen Misty write concerning MPrice? You can send them to me privately and I'll rank them if ya want. Graymt-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu You can't use the actual ending, but you can have it really close. Take care all, Dax the Eternal, Lady of the Unicorns and Pegasai Goddess of Elves, Evangelist of Low Humor Mate of the Potential god of Mediation, etc.. (Probably why I don't like fights) WAIT! I almost forgot! and I don't want to be filleted for a totally offtopic post if I post this later. Abraham grew up in a culture where child/human culture was pretty much accepted of not liked. When God called him to sacrifice Isaac, it was to drive home to Abraham, that He did not approve of child sacrifice (he stopped Abraham and then provided a suitable sacrifice) and as an example of His suffering when Christ was sacrificed. Not some mean mind trick. There, Dax "Though not even for Tania's sake could Kieru convince (his steed) to put on a horn."- Born to Run ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 973 *********************************