MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 977 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Not attacking anyone here but... by Erin Smith 2) Dave by "Hth." 3) Bisexuals by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 4) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) by Kat 5) Corrections/Savil/bi the bi/OAM by "Hth." 6) Re: Brvaes Battles Boredom by Paradox 7) RenFaires/drug reactions/book budget by "Emily L Cartier" 8) Re: Corrections/bi the bi by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 9) Re: Not attacking anyone here but... by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 10) Re: RenFaires/drug reactions/book budget by Vrondi 11) Minibraid: sheep/Companions/Jane Austen/drug reactions by infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) 12) misty a guru?/braiding technique by Khenta Blaufalk 13) goof/Fire Rose/Breakfast at Tiffany's/pathos by undine 14) daw site?/head size by Khenta Blaufalk 15) Re: Valdemar as a Role Playing Game by "V. Brockmeier" 16) Re: Van by "V. Brockmeier" 17) Book questions (possible SB spoiler) by thedane-+AT+-traveller.com (Danielle Walther) 18) Reply to: Degrees/Fire Rose/Hungry?/bi all means/religions? by Rozanna McNeer 19) bi bi birdie by "Hth." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:23:00 -0800 From: Erin Smith To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Not attacking anyone here but... Message-ID: <32952AA4.1E1-+AT+-earthlink.net> > I said: >>> someone who had the power to cut that pass while shielding the magic from >>>the Herald-Mages certainly had the power to clear it quickly. >> >> How? Everyone here seems to think Leareth didn't have the power to Gate >>the army into Valdemar, yet you think he has the power to remove a mountain >>of rock from on top of himself and his army in the three days it's going to >>take the Valdemaran army to get there? How many years was he working on >> this Pass? I don't see him re-cutting it in three days. > >I never said he didn't have the power to Gate in; I think he couldn't Gate in >*without it being obvious to the Herald-Mages*. Also, in a Gate you can only > use your own personal power, you can't get power funneled to you from other Also, to Gate you HAVE TO GO SOMEWHERE *YOU PERSONALLY* have been! I got the impression that Leareth hadn't ever BEEN in Valdemar (okay, maybe on the outskirts somewhere... but an effective attack would have been to pop up right by Haven). Also, coming in by Gate would lose him the element of surprise. If he's been planning to attack Valdemar for any length of time, you'd sorta expect him to do some research and learn how sensitive Vanyel was to Gate Energy. I mean, how many people have seen him fall on his a** every time a Gate went up? That's just my opinion on that particualr comment... I'll go back to hiding now. -- Erin J. Smith ladyneeva-+AT+-earthlink.net President DWSABBR check out our website at http://www.geocities.com/heartland/6380/dwsabbr.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:16:47 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Dave Message-ID: <22NOV96.02462270.0101.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> You guys really aren't into anything dark, are you? Well, personally, Children of the Night is hard on the heels of LHM with me for great Misty books. Again, I like it because it avoids easy answers. Yes, Misty *could* have had Diana come up with the Magic Spell that would heal Davy, right all the wrongs, and let everyone live happily ever after. But then it would have been -- well, it would have been Sacred Ground. For those of you who liked Sacred Ground I guess that's all right, but I thought Sacred Ground was fairly standard, while Children of the Night was exciting. Not just because he dies. I liked Dave because he was an ambiguous character to begin with. Yes, he was forced into being a killer, but he was always a selfish jerk, and that's what he comes to realize by the end of the book. You're forced to have sympathy for a character who's led a pretty rotten life, because you're forced to see the pain and remorse he goes through when he realizes, at the end of his life, that he wanted so much more from himself than what he eventually became, and for Davy there is no second chance. It's easy to make your reader like a sweetie like Talia, or hate a schmuck like Krebain. It's not so easy to make them like a vain, lazy, shallow, misdirected guy like Dave. That Misty pulls it off (at least I liked him, and I know others did, too) is pretty cool, and it shows a much greater understanding of the complexities of average people than we see in most of her work. She walks the tightrope between mercilessly exposing Dave's flaws and presenting him as a nice guy with dreams and a sense of honor, and she makes it work. As for whether he should have died or not, I guess we're back to personal tastes. As I said, I like to see dramatic sacrifices, or I'm not convinced the prize was that worthwhile. (That's why I approved of Kris' death, too, BTW. It served no "purpose," in that it didn't advance the plot particularly, but it made everything seem more serious. It took away that comfort zone of, "Aw, it's okay. No one we *like* is going to die. Author X wouldn't do that to us." No fear that someone will die, no suspense. And there's no fear that someone will die if an author never kills any of her characters.) Without Davy's death, there would have been no real sacrifice. Big gory battle, Di badly wounded, but then she gets better and we're all cool again. Davy *was* the sacrifice. That was my problem with Winds. Too easily won. Not only did no one die, but no one even suffered in a serious way. At the end, everyone's as happy as they were before or happier. This left me feeling like, "That's *it*? That was the guy who's been dogging Velgarth for thousands of years? And he just falls over dead, and that's *it*? I read three books for that?" Other people liked Winds and *that's okay.* (We're all going to be walking on glass here for a month, aren't we?) It just was a little too cuteness and sweet for me. (Well, there's more, but I'll save them for future posts. Good to have a few rants up your sleeve for emergencies.) Now you are all thinking, "So you don't like *any* book where no one dies, gets mutilated, loses their will to live, whatever?" Not true. There are some. But I like those not because of the epic suspense groove, but because they have exquisite characterization and deep insights into human beings. Swordspoint comes to mind. (SwordspointSwordspoint) Elfquest comes to mind -- the earliest stuff. Later on, we do get into heavy-duty sacrifice. There are also some cool sacrifice plots that don't involve anything as tangible as death. Orson Scott Card is great at books where *physically,* all is won, but the price is paid inside the hero's head. Ender Wiggin and Alvin Maker both make their "sacrifices" in terms of their innocence. They win, but they see so much, and learn so much, that they can never be the carefree children they were at the beginning of the book. The price they pay for success is maturity, and I think that's also very cool. So, no, I don't *only* like books where somebody dies. I just don't tend to like books where the only dangers are physical, and those are defeated without cost. There should be a price, or there should be emotional danger involved (SwordspointSwordspointSwordspoint). My opinion on storytelling, not to be interpreted as the word of God. Now none of you are going to buy my books, right? You're going to assume they all end in some horrible, heart-rending bloodfest and just save yourself the grief and $6.99. Damn. Oh, and the God thing. I'm so flattered that I've been nominated for godhood. Y'all are sweet. But I just can't put "Goddess of What She Said" in my sig. It looks too arrogant. It looks like "listen to me, because I'm always right." I don't feel that way, and I wouldn't want to give newbies that impression. I love it that y'all want to accord me a title of respect, but I don't want to come across as though I were demanding respect for my ideas. They really should stand on their own, or not at all. Thanks, though. I feel all warm and squishy inside. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 19:26:00 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Bisexuals Message-ID: <9611220826.AA22656-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Heather wrote: > So take your pick: you have characters who may be bisexual, but Misty's > not telling. You have *villains* who may be bisexual, but Misty's not > telling. And you have the character who was bisexual, who is portrayed > as a cold-hearted, manipulative bitch who uses his sexuality against > other people ("crying to Savil in the morning that I seduced you") -- > with the possible implication that he was such a flighty and > irresponsible chap because he couldn't "decide which he liked." > > This must be Misty's much-vaunted cutting-edge social commentary again. Mmm. This is one case where I have to say not quite what Heather said. :) >From the facts (not the court girls' opinions), Nevis can be either of two things. He can be a cold-hearted s.o.b, who knows exactly what he wants, and deliberately goes about pushing other people's buttons, or he can be a very very confused young man, who reacts badly to what he's done because of his own inhibitions. It's happened before when young gay or bi guys' hormones act up, or they lose inhibitions or fortify their resolve with liquor. I don't doubt that Nevis was the instigating force in his and 'Lendel's assignation, (Lendel was -not- the type to seduce somebody IMHO), but I can quite easily see that type of person being disgusted with what they'd done in the morning.[1] >From there, it's very very elementary psychology for him to unconsciously transfer that guilt and disgust, more or less unconsciously to his partner (in this case 'Lendel), in a "I'm not gay, he must have seduced me" rationalization. It's not good, certainly it indicates a very weak or insecure character to do it more than once (as the girls' opinions indicated he had), but it happens. In fact it's the environmentally in-grained reaction that a lot of gay guys have on their first experience, the difference being that most of them are adult enough to look past that, or at least courteous enough not to run and try and lay the blame. [1] NOTE! I'm not saying that said behaviour is in any way disgusting, just that -that- sort of person, can typically have that reaction. Read what I've said on this one. :) Frankly, I always saw it as a surprisingly astute insight on Misty's part. Not, I hasten to add, an insight into bisexual men, but a look at how an insecure gay, bi, or curious guy can react afterwards. Hell, for that matter, it's apparently not that uncommon a reaction (albeit not as extreme) after a heterosexual one night stand either. As you said Heather, consider the sources of the thing. It's worthwhile noting that Misty does most of her preaching through Heralds or Companions, and Savil's only comment on the whole thing, was that Nevis was a rotten little sod for needlessly hurting 'Lendel - a comment that is equally applicable to Nevis being a manipulative little back-stabber, or a very confused and insecure young man who did the wrong thing. Point being, as I see it, Misty was incorporating Nevis, as one of the bad situations (along with bigotry and prejudice and all the rest) that young gay men can encounter. I don't see the implication that Misty was holding him up as an example of bisexual people - if she had, the girls may well have said "he's one of -those- who can't make up their minds which they like" as opposed to "he [singular] can't make up his [singular] mind who he likes". I never had a problem with Misty's handling of Nevis actually. I can't think that anyone who was in the midst of getting so into characters like Vanyel and 'Lendel, could possibly have been so shallow as to harbour that anti-bi prejudice at the same time. Was going to write more on other stuff, but it's late friday night and I'm still at work so you can breathe a sigh of relief as I sign off. :) Cheers, Kerry. "I'm being careful, as lovers ought to be. He's a false, deluded young man. Let him go. Fare well he." --Steeleye Span, "All Around My Hat." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:28:32 -0800 (PST) From: Kat To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 947 (fwd) Message-ID: Star wrote that I wrote: > Kat wrote: > > > No kidding. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing more female shaych > > characters. (I know, I know they are in the Arrows books). I like Van > > and I like Firesong and I like... (You get the point) but I would like > > mroe female shaych characters. Have there been any bi characters in > > Velgarth that we know of? I can't think of any off the top of my > > head.... > > Something like... There was Nevis. > The girls talking about Tylendel liking boys > "Nevis--wasn't he the one who couldn't make up his mind /which/ he liked > and claimed he'd been seduced every time he crawled into somebody's > bed?" Tashi asked in rapt fascination. > "The very same," Reva told her. > Hmmm.. Maybe. I think though, he might have been going through an experiemental stge where he was trying to figure out what he really was.. he is closer tha Flaconsbane though. Hmmmm Kat Priestess Of Karma Knight of the order of Amber and Marigold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 04:00:33 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Corrections/Savil/bi the bi/OAM Message-ID: <22NOV96.04330155.0055.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> A few corrections: 1. The name of the guy whose story will appear in Sword of Ice is *Mark Shepherd,* not Mark Sherman. You're thinking maybe of Josepha Sherman, Undine? Mark is Misty's housemate, the shaych guy who picks up her mail. Fun guy. Come to DragonCon (http://dragoncon.org) and scope him out. His story is about Van's affair with Jonne, the guardsman mentioned early in MPromise. 2. It was not Danya that I originally nailed for what I perceived as trying to railroad me with her credentials. I'm sure that fracas was what Danya is responding to by saying she hopes it won't be perceived as waving her degree, but the argument was *not* between Danya and I. 'Nuff said. Danya and me. &-+AT+-#%! 3. Fire Rose is too out in paperback. I've seen it, and even touched it with my own sweaty palms. Haven't read it yet, though. I will, honest. I liked that little moment near the end of Savil's life. But then, I like to see characters get scared now and then, and really not want to die, and feel a little helpless. It makes them easier for me to relate to than the mighty, bold, and self-confident types that are all over the place. If I were Savil, one of the last of my generation, one of the last Herald-Mages, witnessing the end of an age and afraid of an attack I couldn't quite see coming, I'd be a little clingy and trembly too. The important thing, as was said, is not that she has moments of profound doubt and fear, but that when push comes to shove, she elects to go down fighting. Rock on, Savil. It's one thing to say, "None of my characters happen to be bi; it's sheerest coincidence; I'll get around to it." But Misty? C'mon, how many books has she written? Four Valdemar trilogies -- 12. Three gryphon books -- 15. OBound, OBreaker, By the Sword -- 18. Three Diana Tregarde books -- 21. Three Bardic Voices books -- 24. Two Bedlam Bards books -- 26. Four (?) Serrated Edge books -- 30. And let's talk standalones -- Sacred Ground, Cast of Corbies, Wing Commander or whatever that was, Fire Rose, Firebird (no bi characters in that, right? haven't read it myself), Tiger Burning Bright. I'm up to 36. I may be missing some. 36 books from an author well-known for positive depictions of gay characters, and not one major bi character who is *clearly* bisexual, comfortable with it, sexually active that we know of with two genders, a nice guy, any combination thereof. She hasn't gotten *around* to it? 36 books and no one *happens* to be bisexual? Doesn't fly with me. Of course, no member of the OAM would consciously leap to conclusions, even in defense of Our Vanyel. We all read and think before we respond, and when in doubt (sometimes even when not in doubt), we go to the source and get text evidence. Of course, we always defend those wrongfully accused of crimes such as Being Mean to Vanyel. All of this should go without saying. *Right,* my children? HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:41:51 -0800 (PST) From: Paradox To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Brvaes Battles Boredom Message-ID: <199611221041.CAA32672-+AT+-uclink4.berkeley.edu> >>Well, I could do it, except for one thing. The pictures. I've already >>had Misty's lawyers yell at me once for the filk lyrics I used to have >>on my page. I not really in the mood for that again. > >Hmm. You're right. I was thinking that if I simply included the >copyrights, it'd be fine. I mean, the pictures ARE readily available at >the daw site. But maybe not..hmm.... > Could you please direct me to that site? I looked for it but I couln't seem to find anything; I'm kind of new at this :) Thanks, Aeryn _______________________________________________ :We only know what we're told, and that's little enough. And for all we know it isn't even true. :For all anyone knows, nothing is. Everything has to be taken on trust; truth is only that which is taken to be true. It's the currency of living. There may be nothing behind it, but it doesn't make any difference so long as it is honoured. One acts on assumptions. What do you assume? -Tom Stoppard, "Rosencrantz and Gildenstern Are Dead" _______________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:47:37 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RenFaires/drug reactions/book budget Message-ID: <9611221350.AA24940-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Ok everyone, this is _really_ gonna be my last message for the next week or so . Hades asked about RenFaires in the PA/DE/NJ area. The Pennsylvania RenFaire runs in the fall on the Mt. Hope Estate and Winery kinda near Lancaster. Is that good enough for you? Renee provided this as evidence of drug reactions: >>>In AotQ after Talia takes her cold dunking in the lake... "With his [Devan] aid she drank it as quickly as she could, trying not to taste it." <<< Sorry Renee, that isn't a bad drug reaction . I can't remember who asked about it, but they were complaining about hives from antibiotics (very classic BTW! awful aren't they?). Another classic drug reaction would be a pennicillin (sp) allergy. I can't take a certain asthma medication because it makes my heart go _way_ too fast, and sometimes I vomit (NOT FUN!). When my mom took Prozac, it made her sleep all the time, totally opposite of what it was supposed to do. I haven't seen anything like that in Misty's books. Wait, maybe the elven caffeine allergy? Teleute said: >>>*Must. resist. evil. shopping. impulse...Iwillnotspendmylifesavingsin bookstores...Iwillnotspendmylifesavingsinbookstores...* Okay, I'm better now. Does this sort of thing ever happen to anybody else?<<< You mean everyone isn't like that? I have a hard time keeping that last five dollars if I go into a bookstore... Even when I'm totally broke! Emily the invisible ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 08:40:56 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Corrections/bi the bi Message-ID: <199611221352.IAA09614-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, "Hth." wrote: >A few corrections: > 2. It was not Danya that I originally nailed for what I perceived as >trying to railroad me with her credentials. I'm sure that fracas was >what Danya is responding to by saying she hopes it won't be perceived as >waving her degree, but the argument was *not* between Danya and I. >'Nuff said. Danya and me. &-+AT+-#%! Sorry. That's who I thought it was, maybe because the title's in the name? Ah, well. Sorry 'bout that. Anyway, there was an incident involving degrees. > 3. Fire Rose is too out in paperback. I've seen it, and even >touched it with my own sweaty palms. Haven't read it yet, though. I >will, honest. When was it out in the States? In Canada, it's still in hardback. > 36 books from an author well-known for positive depictions of gay >characters, and not one major bi character who is *clearly* bisexual, >comfortable with it, sexually active that we know of with two genders, a >nice guy, any combination thereof. She hasn't gotten *around* to it? >36 books and no one *happens* to be bisexual? Doesn't fly with me. Well, don't forget that bisexuals happen to get the sh*t from both the straight community and the gay/lesbian community. Some of the most common stereotypes bisexuals are subject to is that we're sitting the fence, can't make up our minds, trying to have the best of both worlds, or not having the guts to be all the way gay/lesbian. Biphobia is even more pervasive than homophobia, because the queer society itself is divided on this issue. I'm not trying to justify Misty (I think she should have written some by now, too!) with this, but it could also be that when she's trying to get people who read her books come away more openminded, it's easier to "make a statement" with exclusively shaych charactars, they seem to be more end of the spectrum, and provoke more reactions from homophobes. The pervasive biphobia could make people say "S/He just plain didn't know what s/he wanted," or, "I think s/he's really straight, s/he just doesn't know it yet." Then again, if our beloved Misty wrote it, there probably wouldn't be a doubt in the readers mind that bisexualism is just as valid a lifestyle as strictly homosexuality. As Spider Robinson says, "The Lady tolerates monosexuals, she just doesn't understand them." love, deniz sarikaya, High Priestess |But she had the trick of making a little of Procrastination and Holy |island right in the middle of time, and of Custodian of the B-Day List. |your knowing, which is what time does to Confused? Write me! |you. -- Robert Penn Warren dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:10:48 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Not attacking anyone here but... Message-ID: <199611221510.HAA22606-+AT+-latimes.com> At 08:09 AM 11/22/96 GMT, Erin Smith wrote: > Also, to Gate you HAVE TO GO SOMEWHERE *YOU PERSONALLY* have been! I got >the impression that Leareth hadn't ever BEEN in Valdemar (okay, maybe on the >outskirts somewhere... but an effective attack would have been to pop up >right by Haven). I disagree. He could not move an army through a gate fast enough to have them pop up by Haven. The outskirts of Valdemar would have been just fine for his purposes. >Also, coming in by Gate would lose him the element of >surprise. If he's been planning to attack Valdemar for any length of time, >you'd sorta expect him to do some research and learn how sensitive Vanyel was >to Gate Energy. I mean, how many people have seen him fall on his a** every >time a Gate went up? That's just my opinion on that particualr comment... >I'll go back to hiding now. That was only when the Gate went up in his immediate vicinity, not just anywhere, otherwise he would never have been able to stand up with the Empire using Gates all the time. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:27:02 -0500 (EST) From: Vrondi To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: RenFaires/drug reactions/book budget Message-ID: heyla all! I shall be absent from the list for a week or so. Thanksgiving break! Yes! A wonderful holiday to all who celebrate it and all who don't -Vrondi a.k.a Chrys Amy Dean, a.k.a Free Bard Oriole. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To light a candle is to cast a shadow..." -"A Wizard of Earthsea" by Ursula K. LeGuin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://edweb.concord.wvnet.edu/~deanca/celtic ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 13:33 EST From: infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy (Eleonora Scoseria) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Minibraid: sheep/Companions/Jane Austen/drug reactions Message-ID: >Deniz said: > Ele asked about the sheep and Kory and Heather actually >>explained! >Kory replied: >Well, I didn't really *explain*. I just explained the part's >origin, not the whole "sheep thing". I actually didn't catch that one (I >go in phases of off and on reading; that thread was just starting when I >stoppped for awhiles), but had a friend who did explain;> And Ele would like to point out that she is very thankful to Hth, Kory and Nightshade (who also responded privately) for explaining. BTW, Heather, your posts are always worth reading IMHO, so there was no need to lure me to the end with the sheep thing. > >>And also, was Sense and Sensibility based on a book? Or was it originally >>made for a movie? It's one of my all time favorites (w/ Breakfast at >>Tiffany's, Barefoot in the Park, and Herbie the Love Bug) It sounds like >>it would make a really cool book. > >SIgh. Yes. It. Was. By some little hack writer no-one's ever heard of, >too...name something like..Jane Austen?;> > Kory, Sense and Sensibility was written by Jane Austen, but I totally disagree your personal opinion of her work. Or are you not being at all serious about that whole sentence and maybe I am being unfair? If that is the case, apologies (or should I offer you sheeps instead??) Nevertheless, IMNSHO Jane Austen was a brilliant novelist who managed to portray with extraordinary wit and irony the realities and hypocrisies of her time. If anyone is interested in her novels and would like to either discuss them or find out more, you can email me privately (infodyn-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy) >Jacquelle wrote: >Actually, when I think of injured Companions, I think of REALLY >injured. What would happen if a Companion broke its leg? Something >serious like that. Do they ever get sick? They are mortal, they >have bodies of horses, why don't they ever physically react that way? Well, there is evidence that they do react physically to stress,etc.. In MPromise Van tells 'fandes how her coat is recovering, and how she has put on weight. Also in MPromise, Lores's Companion (Jenna??) feigns being lame so as to slow him down. So, illness or physical problems are not unheard of. Renee provided a certain evidence about drug reactions, and Emily disagreed. Well, I have to back up Emily. Personal likes and dislikes are not adverse drug reactions, however averse they might make us to take those drugs. Bye for now, Ele Priestess of Karma ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:13:58 +0100 (CET) From: Khenta Blaufalk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: misty a guru?/braiding technique Message-ID: Hth writes: > You know, I wouldn't mind this kind of thing in another author. Other > authors don't set themselves up as gurus, telling us in every book how a > good person ought to live, how a good leader ought to govern, and so > forth. I do not quite understand what you mean. Do you mean to say you think that Misty does that (i.e. putting herself up as a guru)? What makes you think that? I really want to understand your point, because she herself has said (in the back of Sacred Ground, IIRC) that she does not intent or want to be one. > I have to say this isn't what I hoped for. I want to see a book where > the two female lovers interact with each other, where the dynamic > between them is an important component of the book. Have you tried Nicola Griffiths _Ammonite_? I think it would fit your description. As for the rest of your post, I can only join the chorus: "Yeah, what she said!" (btw, why don't we make that an acronym, since that reaction comes up so frequently... :)) ====================================================================== Kory writes: > I make a new email and > cut and paste in a quote mode. So, sorry, no attribs. Well, when you cut and paste the stuff people wrote, couldn't you at the same time cut the name in the header and copy it to your reply? I can see that an email program won't automatically put an attribution to something that was cut, so why don't you do it yourself? > As it is, it > usually takes at least an hour a day to reply to the list--putting > handwritten attribs before everyone would add even more time. I try to > get my daily braids out as fast as possible, so things aren't too > outdated IMO it wouldn't add that much more time (how much more time does it take to type "XXY said" or "YYX wrote" at the beginning of the quoted stuff?). And why are you worrying about outdated posts, when I, for example, constantly respond to posts that are several days old? There's no time-limit on replies. At least as long your audience knows what you're talking about and it hasn't been discussed to death, IMO. I don't always have the time to come to the lab and tend to the listmail, and on weekends I couldn't, anyways, 'cause the lab's closed. So, I don't have easy Internet-access, sometimes just once or twice a week, and I have to stick to the opening hours. That won't make me stop participating in discussions, just because it's already been going on for a day or so. > braiding is possible in pine. Sorry to contradict you, but that's not quite correct (the system I'm on uses PINE 3.91). Pine is a keystroke-program, so no mouse-action here (sorry if I'm butchering all the proper terms, but I honestly do not know them -- and they're not in the dictionary! :) ). Braiding with Pine is a pain in the ass, to me at least. I'd have to export the posts in questions into a file in my home-directory, go into Emacs (the only editor I know in Unix), and then cut all the irrelevant stuff. And that's the worst thing about it, 'cause the "marking" option and the mouse do not work properly in Emacs. Finally, I have to import the whole file into Pine again, tend to the linebreaks?, 'cause Emacs is unable to do them. And, of course, I have to put the attributions to the posts I'm replying to in it all by myself the program won't do that for me ("Compose"-, not "Reply"-mode). So you see, braiding isn't that easy to do for everyone. Some just put up with it and some don't. Well, since I'm on digest-mode, that takes care of itself: that way I can easily reply to several posts at once. The other sides of it being, of course, that 1) sometimes I have to snip, or rather chop, _very_ large portions of the digest, 2) I'm constantly behind on the listmail, 'cause it takes some time before vanyel has compiled a digest and even more time before I get it, so 3) sometimes the digest contains a beginning of a thread as well as replies, and on exception even the conclusion of a discussion, before I even had a chance to take part in it. Phew. I feel better now that that's off my chest. I can't even explain why I feel so strongly about this that it makes me use that lot of bandwidth. I guess I must have felt attacked somehow. Or it was just that "braiding is sooo easy"-attitude that bugged me. Anyway, I consider it list-related, therefore not too off-topic. ==================================================================== Walk in beauty Khenta Blaufalk aka Skyfire & Aar Goddess of Incomplete Vocabulary and Garbled Grammar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: undine To: list lackey Subject: goof/Fire Rose/Breakfast at Tiffany's/pathos Message-ID: Heyla, Thanks Heather for correcting my mistake about Mark Shephard (not Sherman) being a _Sword of Ice_ contributor. See what working 14 hours a day 6 days a week does to the little grey cells? *sigh* Gee, Kory does cranky and misanthropic fit your idea of an indie bookstore owner? ;> **************************** _Fire Rose_ is indeed available in paperback in the US. My copies arrived October 9. ************************ Lady Becky, ask Esmeralda or Jake for the Complete List of Misty's Short Stories. And if you like the movie Breakfast at Tiffany's you might enjoy reading the novel by Truman Capote. ************************ The Great Van Debate made me think about why I enjoy books; I've come to the conclusion that I enjoy reading pathos. One of the reasons why I enjoy Melanie Rawn is her willingness to kill characters. To me, one of the signs of a good book is that it draws me in emotionally and I don't want to read books that are nothing but happiness and light. I think that's why I enjoy Shakespeare's tragedies far more than his comedies. So do you enjoy books that make you cry? One of my favorite yearly rituals is to reread _Mists of Avalon_ and use up a box of tissues doing it. *********************** Kimber, forgive me for not responding sooner. I'm afraid that I have sad news--the books you were looking for aren't in print :( I'm sorry. I keep wishing that publishers would realize that with computers, books really don't have to go out of print. *sigh* ************************* Arielle (I hope I'm not attributing this incorrectly), isn't the Eyeballs quote from the Cramps? *********************** Happy weekend all, Undine Bibliomancer of the LotPW stafford-+AT+-iac.net "You can be as self-assertive as you like, just so long as you do what you're told." Pterry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:03:14 +0100 (CET) From: Khenta Blaufalk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: daw site?/head size Message-ID: Kory writes, btw in the very same post I already replied to : I mean, the pictures ARE readily available at > the daw site. But maybe not..hmm.... AFAIK, there is _no_ Daw site. Do you happen to have an URL? I mean, I always supposed there is none, if AltaVista can't find it... > I seriously wish I could > write essays like Heather does. Don't we all... :) Erm, I guess I need some ObMisty in here... ok: What I've been wondering for some time: after rereading the first SKitty-tale (Catfantastic, Daw Books) and remembering her descriptions of the bondbirds, what makes her think that an enlarged head is a sign of boosted intelligence? IMO that's reasoning along the lines of "Leave the thinking to horses, they have larger heads than we humans do" (I don't know if that saying translates that well into English). AFAIK, intelligence has more to do with the number of spirals? convolutions? in the neocortex than the actual size of the head. And, sort of appending this to the above as well as the debate on art :), Larry never drew the bondbirds with larger heads, they look like being in "normal" proportion to the rest of their bodies. And saying that the bodies are enlarged as well doesnt count, 'cause then there would be no need to speak of enlarged heads, n'est-ce pas? Walk in beauty Khenta Blaufalk aka Skyfire & Aar Goddess of Incomplete Vocabulary and Garbled Grammar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:17:53 -0600 (CST) From: "V. Brockmeier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Valdemar as a Role Playing Game Message-ID: > Would anyone out there know if someone has managed to bring Misty's > Valdemar into a Role Playing system ie.. AD&D or even a Rifts setting? Well, I don't know of anything "published," but I know a couple gamers who do nothing with their spare time but convert worlds to favorite systems--including AD&D and Rifts, also one of their own. I've been on their cases for a few months with this idea (too lazy, myself, especially when I can get someone else to do it). If you want, I can pass along the message that there really *is* interest--if there is, fellow aficionados? --vix ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:00:33 -0600 (CST) From: "V. Brockmeier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van Message-ID: OK, I've been trying to avoid this one, but now I just can't help myself. > I actually find it rather amusing that so many people sworn to defend Van > seem to prefer the thought of him committing suicide and being alone for > another 60+ years to the thought of him living and being happy during at > least part of that time. I don't think it's so much a matter of whether it's the happiest possible ending, but rather the *best* one. Vanyel was a god, tragic character, with a good, tragedy-plagued life, and to change that, especially on something so important as the time and circumstances of his death, would have cheapened him. I mean, if the Cranes wrote happy music, i don't think they'd have anything like the following they do. We all need a little sadness in our lives, if nothing else just so we can be thankful that poor shmuck isn't us. Vanyel, for me at least, filled that dark hole in my spirit--with, appropriately, more darkness. --vix "I'm donating my body to science fiction." --me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:05:09 -0600 From: thedane-+AT+-traveller.com (Danielle Walther) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Book questions (possible SB spoiler) Message-ID: <199611221905.NAA28692-+AT+-cyclone.traveller.com> Okay, I've been lurking and having a great time BTW, until I noticed one person mentioning "Oathblinded" - new Tarma and Kethry??? and a second person saying that they had Red Star Rising by Anne McCaffrey. I work at a bookstore and get to see everything that comes in. Can some kind soul email me privately with details about these two books? ObMisty: There's been mention about characters appearing prominently in one series, then barely a mention in others. I missed Talia and Dirk and Kerowyn in Winds and Storm trilogies. I didn't have a problem with Elspeth or Skif or the other characters, but they were focused on in TWO trilogies. I want the others back! Also I found it quite annoying in SB that Vanyel and 'Fandes were flashed on at the end, and then Nothing!!! No other mention except in the circle of power and no lines, no questions, no nothing. What happened to Stef? Did they just leave him in Sorrows? I felt that Misty just wrapped SB up Way Too quickly. I like Misty, really I do, but I was majorly disappointed at the too-pat tieup of SB. Danielle/TiaLessa on IRC Herkulean/Xenite/X-Phile/B5/Trekker/ Lackey/McCaffrey fanatic ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:24:07 -0500 From: Rozanna McNeer To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Reply to: Degrees/Fire Rose/Hungry?/bi all means/religions? Message-ID: <199611221424_MC1-C58-E11C-+AT+-compuserve.com> Deniz sid: >By the way, I never heard of Fire Rose until I saw it on the shelf, happy as a >clam sittin' right next to the rest of Misty's stuff. I read the prelude. Is >it good or corny? I couldn't really tell from such a brief glimpse. Besides, >it's not out in PB yet, so talk to me. I've got time. It's fairly good - new magic system, set in turn of the century america. I can safely tell you it's a retelling of beauty and the beast And it *is* out in paperback - i saw it in Waldenbooks about a month ago in paperback. Of course, I *do* have the HB version It was much-o better than WG or SG, that's for d*mn sure. Firemist, Goddes of Made From Scatch Foods ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:53:43 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: bi bi birdie Message-ID: <22NOV96.15007219.0035.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> How far do you think we can keep going with these "bi" subject headers? Okay, point well made. Nevis was not necessarily bisexual, nor was he necessarily a cruel person, just a -- fathead? I like the idea that he was in the book as one more danger a gay person can face in a homophobic society: bearing the blame for "seducing" those who have a better reputation than he does. But this still doesn't mean we're any closer to honest depictions of bisexual people in Misty's world. It puts Nevis in the Eric/An'desha category, "oh, he may sleep with certain people of x gender, but he's *really* x sexuality." Or he's still bisexual, but not a back-stabber, just a head case. Either way, he's no poster child. My point is that I wouldn't mind Nevis *if we knew of any other characters who habitually had lovers of both genders.* We know some we can surmise did, and we know some who had a chosen gender and one lover of the other gender. I don't remember who made the claim, but I don't think it's true that "all or most" Tayledras are bisexual. Certainly, they think it's *okay* to be bisexual. But who are the Tayledras we know best? Firesong, who makes it quite clear to Elspeth that he doesn't sleep with women at all, and Darkwind, who does not seem to have any desire to sleep with men at all. He flirts, but I don't necessarily take that seriously. It's the Tayledras version of Treesa Ashkevron's "Game." Now every Tayledras on the planet may be bisexual except for Firesong and Darkwind, but surely it's notable that those two, the main-character Tayledras, are explicitly not? I think it is a political thing. A lot of straight people in the world are okay with gay people, but only because they've come to believe that gay people "have no choice" and "were born this way." The logic goes, better to have someone of your own gender than to be alone forever. Some of these same people just get annoyed with bisexuals, because they "choose" their lives. The logic goes, if you *can* be happy with someone of the opposite sex, why don't you, and stop mucking about with this lesser kind of sex. There's also an assumption that they will eventually settle down in a happy heterosexual relationship, and they're just sleeping with members of the same sex now because they want sex constantly and don't care how they get it. So this kind of person is going to be quite comfortable with Vanyel or Firesong, but not with a bisexual guy. Hence the rationalizations for Eric and An'desha. She carefully explains that it's *just the once,* and *only because they're in love.* Definitely not just because they enjoy gay sex in addition to straight sex. I have to briefly disagree with Deniz. Most bisexual people I know do have an attitude along the lines of "wanting the best of both worlds." They think men are great and women are great, and they really don't like the idea that they should pick one just because other people do and pretend to have no interest in the other gender. As James Dean said, "I wouldn't go through life with one hand tied behind my back." The idea is, if they think both worlds are great, why artificially limit themselves to fit other people's idea of how they should live. I have a bi friend who recently got divorced, and one of the major factors in the relationship's breakup was that his wife really expected him to "turn straight" after they got married. She figured she'd cured him now, and there was no more need for this kinda icky weirdness. Well, John's just plain not straight and resented being told to pretend he was (no, he didn't fool around on her, he's not the type, but he is pretty outspoken, and continues to drool over Adrian Paul, David Duchovny, and so forth). He felt like she was trying to change him, which she was, and that led to all kinds of hard feelings all around. My point is that, yes, bisexuals have a whole raft of problems that other people just don't face. They get the world's general homophobia. Their gay relationships are often given less importance by their friends than their straight ones. Gay people often treat them like they're being insufficiently supportive by not committing to being gay. And people always want to know which gender they *really* like, as though they were just playing games with the other gender. (Some are, but not, in my experience, most.) And if they get involved in a serious gay relationship, there's always going to be someone asking them when they're going to give it up and get married for real. But then, that's exactly why Misty really ought to be writing about them. She wrote about the prejudices gay men face, and it went over beautifully and changed a lot of people's attitudes. Maybe if she'd face up to some of the issues surrounding bisexuality instead of (assumption here) avoiding them because it's relatively controversial, she'd have that to be proud of, too. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 977 *********************************