MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 982 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Jake leaving... by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" 2) Re: Book titles, Van (oh, no!), geology, being shaych, good books by bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu 3) Re: drug reaction+allergies /book budget v. food by bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu 4) The Fire Rose / A Victim of Prejudice *** Brief comment concerni by "Heather D. Wegemer" 5) Idra / bi baby bunting / Thanksgiving by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> 6) Stuff I wanted to say by Rachel Ainsworth 7) ADMIN: listmistress back, but snowed under by Melanie Dymond Harper 8) Leaving by Lady Windsong 9) Re: Idra by Eleonora 10) Sorry 'bout the one-liner folks, but: by Barbara Slater 11) Fire Rose/ Pterry/:> 'lo Dayna :>/ Tam Lin/ weeping by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 12) bye/de-lurk/van/bi/covers by dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA 13) Re: bi/Tremane/Claudia Christian by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 14) Casting Hulda by Mat the Cat in Green 15) RE: Jake leaving... by Wyrick D TSgt CS/SCBC ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:35:42 -0800 From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Jake leaving... Message-ID: <199611250635.WAA24001-+AT+-latimes.com> At 11:23 PM 11/24/96 GMT, Soljan-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > I have been on this list since March, and it seems like it has been an >eternity. I've seen people come, and people go. And many have stayed. For >those of you who have stayed, let me ask you this. It seems that something >like this happens every few months. Tensions build up and things happen. > The only other thing I can think of right now is the infamous religion topic >that created many many hurt feelings. It seems that every few months the >list has a major argument, and people get hurt. Perhaps it was the >aftermath of the not-as-bad Van dying topic that lead up to this. I don't >know. Since you ask, without naming names, here are the problems as I see them: (1) The list is _not_ friendly to newbies. The list is dominated by a select few who have extremely forceful personalities and a "coded" means of communicating that they interpret as "joking" but which newbies have no means of interpreting in that manner. (2) The list practices censorship. Newbies are told that this list is a place to discuss their questions about Misty's works, but when they try to do just that, two or three people jump all over them, screaming about the FAQs that list all of these forbidden topics--which just happen to be the topics newbies want to discuss the most. So people find themselves on a list where they get yelled at for trying to talk about exactly what it was they wanted to talk about so badly that they joined the list in the first place. (3) The list flames first (privately as well as publically) and asks questions later. A select few list members think that long association with the list entitles them to flame newer members (sometimes unjustly) at will. The list is so trigger-happy that over half the posts that are not from longtime members are couched in language that is self-deprecating in an attempt to avoid being flamed or sound as if the poster is diving for cover in anticipation that flames will be heading his/her way the instant the message posts. (4) The list flames newer members who sound authoritative on a subject without asking if they really are authorities on that subject. Longtime members are able to expound upon their fields of expertise without comment, yet newer members are silenced by an onslaught of largely private (but sometimes public) flames the instant they suggest that they might know something about an area that is under discussion. (5) The list has a double-standard for longtime members and newbies. Newer members, like myself, who talk on topic but who have computer systems that cannot braid get attacked for something over which they have no control. Conversely, longtime members can offer dozens of one-line messages with no Misty content whatsoever (or even "fluff" pieces that go on for several screens), and yet they fail to receive criticism, and often do receive praise, for their efforts. The result has been the creation of an environment of fear in which mailboxes are clogged with fluff, rhetorical ObMisty questions proliferate and anything that comes up that's on topic gets shot down with "Read the FAQs" or intentional and/or unintentaional flames. Suggested solutions? (1) Try to avoid the use of irony and sarcasm as forms of humor when writing to the list. These are the types of humor that are most frequently misunderstood/misinterpretted because people cannot see your face or hear your voice. (2) Let the newbies talk about what they want to talk about. You don't have to participate in every Thread, and I would much rather have my mailbox clogged with posts naming the four major Celtic holidays or discussing whether or not Van was a Bard than have it clogged with flames and resignations and apologies. (3) Ask questions if you are unclear about someone's position, read the answer carefully, and only then post a contrary position if you disagree with what was said. But do _not_ flame. Ever. (4) Question ideas, evidence and conclusions, but do not attack someone's right to address an issue or to sound as if they know what they are talking about. As much as we call each other friends, we are largely complete strangers. We know almost nothing about each other's training and/or background. The person you attack might very well be an internationally recognized expert in the field you are discussing or s/he might know absolutely nothing about the topic. Better to play it safe than to inadvertently insult fellow list members. (5) The list needs to make up its collective mind about why it exists. If it is a place for people to discuss Misty's works, then people should not be flamed for discussing Misty's works. If it is a place to post pages and pages of fluff and to make offhand comments about Misty every now and then, then people should not be flamed for posting things like chain letters. (I actually find the chain letters I've seen far less annoying than screen after screen of people deifying each other.) If the list is a place to do both, then both activities should be allowed without people screaming about how much they have to pay for e-mail or what format someone does or does not answer messages in. If anything goes, then anything goes for everyone equally. But if everything is supposed to be on topic, then that restriction should apply to everyone equally as well. As I said, these are simply suggested solutions to the problems that I noted above. You may not agree with me on what the problems are on this list; that is certainly your right. But things are definitely falling apart here, and these are what I see as the major reasons why. Danya ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:49:36 -0500 (EST) From: bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Book titles, Van (oh, no!), geology, being shaych, good books Message-ID: Danya, replying to somone, said: > I'll always agree to disagree, but I do not think your interpretation of the > title is correct. In _Magic's Pawn_ Van is being used by magic. In > _Magic's Promise_ Van realizes what his magic has to offer him. And in > _Magic's Price_ Van realizes what his magic (*not* what he loved) has cost > him. I happen to think that the price was way out of proportion with the > actual benefits, given that Ma'ar is not destroyed. Hmm..you and I will have to agree to disagree on this, becaus they way I read them--the first we agree on, the second, however, is Van in the "prime", so to speak, of his power, living up to the promise he had, and the last is the final price he pays. I'm not sure whether I think the price justified or not--but then, however much it may have cost him, Van had the chance to really DO something significant in his life, something that will be rememberd--and while that's cold comefort when you're exhausted and alone, it is a chance that many people would like to have. I think, however, that Van had a serious premintion of the price he'd pay, even as early as _M_Pawn_, but went into it willingly (although this is based on what I remember from re-reading them over a year ago--don't have them with me...) > > > >I never said he didn't have the power to Gate in; I think he couldn't Gate in > >*without it being obvious to the Herald-Mages*. > > Van apparently thought he did: "Dear gods, thing of the power--think of > what it took to *mask* the power!" I don't read this as contradicting that--oh, I'm being specific, yes! Chopping some chunks of stone is one thing--loud and messy but LOCAL. Gateing is loud and messy over a really broad area. Hiding them are two differnt things entirely--orders of magnitudes of power apart, by my call. > > >Also, in a Gate you can only > >use your own personal power, you can't get power funneled to you from other > >mages or nodes the way he could to cut the pass. > > Sorry, but that's wrong. The Empire mages do this all the time. Several of > them band together to put up Gates and feed each other power to maintain them. And the obvious question then becomes, did Ma'ar know this technique? Offhand, I say no, but again, no books around to check... > >I also didn't say the rock > >was going to be on top of him and his army, it would have to be blocking the > >pass *in front* of them, and Leareth wouldn't need to re-cut the pass, just > >clear rubble out. Shifting rubble is a lot easier than carving virgin > >granite. > > I agree. But you were arguing against my scenario, and in my scenario the > rock *is* on top of them. Calling me wrong because you change the > parameters is unfair. So, was there enough rock nearby to bury the entire army? (I remeber it as being pretty seiously large. (Not meaning to be antagonistic, here, just raising the questions that spring to my mind.) > >I see that bit about exploding the floor of the pass differently to > >you, BTW; IMO, he was "exploding" the *ice* that was around and between the > >rocks by flash-heating it into steam. That would toss the rocks around quite > >effectively and be nice and dramatic, but the rocks themselves weren't > >exploded. Because the stone at the sides of the pass was all one piece, there > >wasn't any ice in cracks for Van to "explode" and bring the rocks down. > > You can't have it two ways. The walls are the same as the floor of the > pass. It is a fresh cut, straight down and through. The old pass is way up > above this one. The floor is not original and the walls newly cut; the > whole thing is newly cut. So what can happen to the floor can happen to the > walls. However (thus speaks the reluctent Geology student) if you presume we have normal fractures running though the rock, water (hence ice) will fill them first along the bottom of the pass--although, Danya, if you assume permafrost in the area, superheating the ice in the top of the freshcut would have made things really messy really fast... Ach, enough. I may somtime in the near future check out the textual stuff on the mountains (in my neighborhood bookstore...) and then put a Gelologic scenerio together--anything to keep me busy in that wretched, overheated, boring class...(that is to say, the room is hot, not the class...) I finished the first Winter story tonight--8,200 words. 'S gonna wind up thirty-odd pages double spaced. I fail to understand the genuine short-story. This is the shortest thing I've ever written with a conventional, stand-alone plot, and editing it any shorter would be a fair trick. Anyways, just had to share. I'm happy. First finished story in a fair bit--first mybe ever (at least, first in YEARS) that wasn't for a class. I like to write,I can just be a little unfocused about it. Since several people have expressed interest in whoever-it-was' reasearch on being shaych, I'll get somthing together and post it tomorrow (I will. Really I will. High Priestess of Procrastination will kindly go elsewhere...) Last but not least, I won't go into full book-recommending mode, but *everyone* should read _Tam Lin_, by Pamela Dean, and anything by Judith Tarr is worth the cover price and then a little. Katherine Kurtz's modern fantasty (occult) stuff (the Adept books, _Lammas Night_) are worth a look. --Winter Jackson Commander of the DarkSky Irregulars "But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?" Pilate to Jesus, from _Jesus Christ Superstar_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:15:34 -0500 (EST) From: bf17346-+AT+-binghamton.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: drug reaction+allergies /book budget v. food Message-ID: Emily L Cartier wrote: > Renee provided this as evidence of drug reactions: > >>>In AotQ after Talia takes her cold dunking in the lake... > "With his [Devan] aid she drank it as quickly as she could, trying > not to taste it." <<< > Sorry Renee, that isn't a bad drug reaction . I can't remember who > asked about it, but they were complaining about hives from > antibiotics (very classic BTW! awful aren't they?). Another classic > drug reaction would be a pennicillin (sp) allergy. I can't take a > certain asthma medication because it makes my heart go _way_ too > fast, and sometimes I vomit (NOT FUN!). When my mom took Prozac, it > made her sleep all the time, totally opposite of what it was supposed > to do. I haven't seen anything like that in Misty's books. Wait, > maybe the elven caffeine allergy? Maybe. I agree that its not shown--as somone who learned at the age of two that I am severly allergic to pennicillin (sp?), and has to be quite careful about not taking or being given it, I'd like to seee people dealing with that. Just occured to me that, barring elves and caffine, I can't remember any allergies in Misty's books. Am I wrong? > Teleute said: >>>*Must. resist. evil. shopping. > impulse...Iwillnotspendmylifesavingsin > bookstores...Iwillnotspendmylifesavingsinbookstores...* Okay, I'm better > now. Does this sort of thing ever happen to anybody else?<<< You mean > everyone isn't like that? I have a hard time keeping that last five > dollars if I go into a bookstore... Even when I'm totally broke! I think I have you beat on that one. When I was in England on a school program, we got a weekly allowence for food. Trouble was, I'd rather have good reading material and bus-fare...I din't eat three meals a day the entire time I was there, and more often then not, ate only one... Winter Jackson. "Truth is as subjecive as reality." --X-Files ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:27:55 +0000 From: "Heather D. Wegemer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The Fire Rose / A Victim of Prejudice *** Brief comment concerni Message-ID: <199611250729.CAA18898-+AT+-cwconnect.ca> I read Mercedes Lackey's _The Fire_Rose_ some time ago. Later, for totally different reasons, I read Mary Hays' _The_Victim_of_Prejudice_. Rereading _The_Fire_Rose_ since then, I was struck by several similarities. One italicized and repeated statement especially stuck me (as repetition and italics are wont to do). "my daughter [is] the victim of prejudice that holds her sex inferior to that of the male." (Lackey, 2, 22) I felt then that _The_Fire_Rose_ must be, in part, a conscious response to Ms. Hays' work. The many similarities and marked contrasts are simply overwhelming. As Mary in _The_Victim_of_Prejudice_ comments, "with active mind and ardent curiosity, I conceived an enthusiastic love of science and literature," (Hays, 24-5) _The_Fire_Rose_'s Rosalind cares only for, "the joys of scholarship, the thrill of academic pursuit, the intellectual companionship of fellow scholars." (Lackey, 19) Both are left destitute at the death of the (seemingly) wealthy male who had supported them. (textevd available on demand -- I just remembered; this one _isn't_ a formal English paper ;-) Both Rosalind and Mary are forced into a position where domestic service as a tutor or such seems the only promising avenue. Both Rosalind and Mary are lured into an area away from the safety of their home areas -- Mary to London and Rose to California. Each finds that the supposed position as governess was a ruse; Rose's exclamation, "You used me, used my circumstances to put me in a position where I had no choice!" (Lackey, 159) applies equally to both; Peter Osborne's assertion, "Whither would you go? What madness influences you? -- Recollect the time of night, your ignorance of the town. In avoiding fancied evils, the fictions of a romantic imagination, would you rush on to certain destruction?" (Hays, 113) is more plainly echoed in Jason Cameron's practical, "there are many ways for a penniless woman to make a living in San Francisco, but I do not believe that most of them would appeal to you." (Lackey, 159) There are marked differences in the women's behaviour. Although Mary claims a degree of liberation (Ms. Hays being a prominent disciple of Mary Wollstonecraft), she accepts her role in society. She never dares boast of her academic background as Rose does. She is one of the women that Rose disdains, fainting dead away every time she encounters Peter Osborne (who may be seen as both du Mond and Beltaire, as well as Jason in his more beastly states). Indeed, Peter Osborne's lack of control resulting from excess drink may be seen as akin to Jason Cameron's loss of control when rage forces him to act more lupine than human. In both cases, this is seen by the lady as insufficient to excuse the action, but is a plausible reason. While Mary constantly bewails her state and is unwilling to deal with men to get what she wants, Rose is depicted as a young woman perfectly willing to meet men on their own ground and win. Mary constantly rejects the offers -- including non-romantic -- of Peter Osborne because of his boorish behaviour towards her. Rose, however, will use Jason Cameron as much as he uses her, despite the fact that he is rude and insulting. The differences in the ends of the books are predictable. Although rescued from a dreadful fate, Mary languishes and dies. Fighting against what she sees as unjust, Rose finds an ideal position/life. I could expound further, but it's late, and I'll give you all a chance to object, "But we haven't _read_ _The_Victim_of_Prejudice_!!!!! Hays, Mary. _The_Victim_of_Prejudice_. London: J. Johnson, St. Paul's Churchyard, 1799. Peterborough: Broadview, 1994. Lackey, Mercedes. _The_Fire_Rose_. New York: Baen, 1995. *** Hth made a comment about lack of depictions of bisexuality in action being a result of a perception that bisexuals lack the decency to pick one gender and settle down. I feel it more basic than that. Ms. Lackey seldom depicts promiscuity in her characters -- while they are in the volume, at least, she likes them to pick one _person_ (two in _really_ special cases like Eric, Bethany, and Korendil). If she does not like to depict a person having sexual relationships -- which, if I am not mistaken (and I may well be) forms the core of sexuality -- with multiple people, it would be _quite_ problematic to depict relationships with multiple genders. Only the kestra'chern seem authorized in their many relationships in the Wonderful World of Lackey. Our main kestra'chern contact has been lifebonded -- restricting outside relationships -- and Silverfox defined himself (I believe) as bisexual. Ms. Lackey, I feel, is protecting her readers not from the notion of bisexuality, but from that of multiple sexual/romantic relationships at the same time. We don't see two concurrent heterosexual relationships, nor two concurrent homosexual relationships at the same time, so it may follow logically that we do not see a concurrent homosexual and heterosexual relationship. With respect to the question of, "one very special instance of loving *one* person of that gender," Ms. Lackey seems to depict most of her relationships as love with one particular person. Again, while she is open to alternative sexuality in terms of gender and even number, Ms. Lackey seems to shy away from even a suggestion of promiscuity. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:46:56 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Idra / bi baby bunting / Thanksgiving Message-ID: I just noticed this a little while ago on a rereading of SRising, so if I'm pointing out the obvious, sorry, but I find it interesting--it seems that Idra (from Oathbreakers) came back as a Companion! ****** Oh yeah, there is Korendil! But I thought that got pretty downplayed. In KoG&S, Eric wasn't ready to deal with it yet, so we understandably didn't see much, and Summoned to Tourney didn't have anything more-than- friend-ish happen between Eric & Kory except some "horseplay" in the shower and the scene at the Faire tent where Eric notices (with a bit of possessive pride, I thought) how Korendil stuns everyone. *Very* low-key. Somewhere at the beginning (?) of this thread, Khenta protested that Misty is not any kind of guru, partly on the basis of an interview in which she denied pretensions to guruhood. I think that a lot of writers in the fantasy genre write about what they see as right and wrong; doing so doesn't make Misty a guru, but she does come off as a bit guruish when she uses the ruminations & speeches of her characters to expound on her notions of what constitutes ethical behavior. And she's progressive, in a way that I think many of us can agree with. Her intent doesn't seem to be, as it is with some other authors, to explore the shades of gray and the souls of characters who walk the line between good and evil; she writes about Good triumphing over Evil, and makes it clear that the Good guys can include some folk that a lot of people habitually think of as inherently threatening or degenerate. So even if she says she doesn't want to tell anyone how to live (I'm not familiar with the interview), I continue to expect from her a high standard of openmindedness, a lack of prejudging in her opinions of what sort of people take on certain lifestyles, and as much courage in determining to portray bisexuals as complete and as complex as her characters that are shaych--standards that I think she herself set up. I'm not criticizing your point of view, Khenta, just taking the opportunity to state my own. Most of the people I've met RL who've read Misty thought she was pretty preachy. I disagree with that, too, mostly, but I think she has a definite urge to enlighten people, and it irks me to think that a skilled enlightener might need a little enlightening herself, so instead I'm just waiting for her, my fave author, to write a book with a positive, and not marginalizing, portrayel of a bi character. ****** I'm making the Obligatory Familial Visit this week--departing Tuesday, but you may not hear from me until early next week, so I wanted to wish you all a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!! Here, have a rubber chicken. When you rub its head, it brings to mind a memory of when someone thanked *you*. --Lee-- 97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu -- www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/ "What time is it?"--Dekker, P. / Knight of the OAM, Spreader of Humor, Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:04:03 +1300 (NZDT) From: Rachel Ainsworth To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Stuff I wanted to say Message-ID: <199611251004.XAA19981-+AT+-ihug.co.nz> Warning: delurking occuring! I think I have something to teach the Klingons about not being seen! Hth said: > It served no "purpose," in that it didn't >advance the plot particularly, but it made everything seem more serious. >It took away that comfort zone of, "Aw, it's okay. No one we *like* is >going to die. Author X wouldn't do that to us." No fear that someone >will die, no suspense. And there's no fear that someone will die if an >author never kills any of her characters.) I have to agree with this. Too many authors take the easy way out and make a happy ending occur by leaving all the main characters standing at the end of the book when it would have been so much better if they had died. IMO if you know that an author is not going to kill off any of the characters you know then it takes any emotional impact out of any danger that occurs as you already know that everyone is going to be OK. This is not to say that characters should die in every scene - just when it is appropriate. In summary, what Heather said!!!! Undine said: >One of the reasons why I enjoy >Melanie Rawn is her willingness to kill characters. To me, one of the >signs of a good book is that it draws me in emotionally and I don't want >to read books that are nothing but happiness and light. I agree. One of the best non-sf books that I have read is Suprise Party by William Katz. It is a mystery so I usually would have stayed clear of it but it was recommended to me. What I liked about it was that it was not a book in which everyone lived happily ever after. Ok, now for a few short things that I have to say: For casting Amberdrake I see Adrian Paul. Does anyone else that has read GGK's The Summer Tree think that the big bad black swan thing that carried Jennifer off would look like the picture on the cover of The Black Gryphon? Having read BG just before The Summer Tree, BG was sitting next to me as I read the description of the swan thing. To me it just seemed that the description matched the picture. Having just read Red Star Rising, for all those who are interested, it is set in the second pass and has minor characters who are shaych. Unless you are a huge Anne McCaffrey fan, (or have lots of money) I wouldn't recommend buying it. I would recommend reading it, as it is enjoyable (IMO) and is written in a similar style to the early pern books. On the Van thing: he couldn't have gone to teach magecraft as there would have been nobody to teach. IIRC, in MP ( one of them ) Van finds out that someone was causing accidents to occur to all those with the magegift before they were able to use it. The reason that Van didn't get killed was that his gifts were blocked while growing up. Please remember for TV shows etc. that not everyone is in America, so that everything is a spoiler. Sometimes here in New Zealand we don't get programs for two years after they have been made. Then again this allows time for the memory to fail! :) Is anyone a god or godess of water? Maybe we need someone who can dump water on the flames to make them go out.:) Kia ora, Rachel ainswort-+AT+-ihug.co.nz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:37:37 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: listmistress back, but snowed under Message-ID: <199611251037.KAA08886-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Right. I'm now back from the Netherlands, but email piles up quite a bit in three days. I think I have dealt with all the stuff that's been sent to lackey-owner, but anything sent to mel-+AT+-... will have to wait in the queue (it's a fairly long queue :(). Should be back up to speed tomorrow or Weds. Mel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:17:11 +0800 (SST) From: Lady Windsong To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Leaving Message-ID: <2.2.16.19961125201623.300f269e-+AT+-singnet.com.sg> Hello, everyone. I'm sorry I ever had to say this, but I think I'll do what Jake just did, and leave for a while. I think that if I stay, I'll end up losing my temper, and flaming everyone in sight. And I meant that. *sigh* I know I haven't participated lately, and now you all know why. Just for the record, I never felt this list left newbies out, or was closed, or had a certain 'code'. I remember when I first came on, around April, everyone was very nice to me, and to my she'enedra, who joined round about then as well. You guys were great. Really. :) I never felt you 'flame first, ask questions later', in fact, I didn't think you all did much flaming at all. You all made me feel very welcome when I joined, and you never shot down my questions, or remarks. No matter how dumb they were. :) I joined you as much for the fluff as for the discussions: The fluff makes it feel like family in here, somehow. But I guess not all people feel that way. She'enedra? I'm sorry, I know this isn't exactly what you want to see right now, but...now I think I'd better leave. Sorry everyone, for taking up bandwidth; sorry, Auntie Mel, for being off-topic. Goodbye, everyone, take care! Oh yeah, and have a merry Christmas! :) Peace to you always, Lady Windsong K'Treva in Green. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 21:50:44 -0300 From: Eleonora To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Idra Message-ID: <30E9D2E4.2DE2-+AT+-distrinet.com.uy> Lee wrote: > > I just noticed this a little while ago on a rereading of SRising, so if > I'm pointing out the obvious, sorry, but I find it interesting--it seems > that Idra (from Oathbreakers) came back as a Companion! > She what??? I completely missed that one. Where? When? How? Also, she was never (that I know of) a Herald. Does that mean that Companions can be something other than reincarnated Heralds or Grove-born??? Hi, Woodlark! Well met, fellow Gibran lover. I have been toying with the idea of a HomePage dedicated to his works, and spreading his phylosophy, but I have not found the time or energy so far. What about making it a collaborative effort among all the Gibran lovers on the Misty list (so far there are at least 3 of us)?? Sorry about the almost one liner, but I_do_have_to_finish that report or my client will kill me :( (Mat should really make me an Honorary something or other if Cen doesn't mind, my tithes to him are certainly enormous). Love, Ele Priestess of Karma LotPW Dame of the OAM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:06:29 -0500 From: Barbara Slater To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk, mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com Subject: Sorry 'bout the one-liner folks, but: Message-ID: Sorry 'bout the one-liner folks, but: What the heck happened that would make JAKE unsub? Lani ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 15:00:11 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Fire Rose/ Pterry/:> 'lo Dayna :>/ Tam Lin/ weeping Message-ID: <9611251400.AA09759-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> greetings - my what a snippy lot we've become - *loved* Jake's impression of a prima ballerina darlings - too too super. He flounces so beautifully. Undine wrote: > _Fire Rose_ is indeed available in paperback in the US. My copies arrived > October 9. Well, I bought and read FireRose this weekend, and wasn't _that_impressed. The heroine just didn't "click" with me, nor the Beasty. The end was way to fast, and a bit "and they all lived happily ever after"ish. I know, I know, it's a fairy tale, but it hadn't been told as one until the end. I preferred Robin McKinley's version. It had undines in it Undine! I wish she'd developed the elementals some more - they were a nice idea. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ =_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_ Kory - > I found Mort and Pyramids at the library, so I'm HAPPY! Mort is totally and utterly my fav'rit Pterry, and isn't Pyramids where all the Pterry stuff started?? Enjoy - take a break from ML! :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) :> :) Aw c'mon Dayna - it's not that bad - you just got jumped on a lot lately. I've had my share of thinking "Fuck the lot of them" and unsubbing, but I usually find that a few days break gives me the distance I need to think "Oh sod it, I'll try again". Incidentally, as someone who's been around for a year or so now, I consider myself an oldie, friendly to newbies, open minded, totally non-smoking, tolerant etc etc etc. The list has had a *lot* of new subscribers lately, and we did go through a phase where almost every other week we'd get the same question raised. I mean, if someone were to mail in a week or so something along the lines of "I thought the way Van died at the end of Magic was really great because ....." wouldn't you groan, just an itsy bit, and be glad if someone else mailed back saying "Don't - it's not worth it, we did this to death not long ago"? I certainly retreated for a few weeks after the centrism debate - I bet no-one even remembers it now. That got nasty and personal but hey, I'm still here. That line of smilies took me ages - that alone should win me some brownie points, :> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ =_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_ Winter Jackson wrote, > Last but not least, I won't go into full book-recommending mode, but > *everyone* should read _Tam Lin_, by Pamela Dean, I did. I spent 98% of the book trying to figure the US higher education system and wondering what the hell the book was *for*, 2 % finding out, and a short period wondering if it had all been worth the bother. From the number of folks on this list who praise it, I can only assume I missed something, somehow, somewhere?? It was based, if I recall, in the late 70's?? Well, as someone who was around the ages of the Tam Lin kiddies around that era, they sure as hell didn't kick my memory chip into action. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ =_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_ Someone (sorry - mega delete after a busy weekend) asked about standard weepy texts - well, at the risk of repeating myself, Tigana by GGKay, is my standard. Skalagrig and The Stonor Eagles, both by William Horton (I think) have me hiccoughing in anticipation, even before I'm through the first page! And movies - well there's that scene in Dumbo, when his Mama's been locked in the cage, and can only touch him with her trunk??? She strokes and cuddles him, then swings him to sleep - sheesh, I'm a sodden wreck by the end, piles of soggy tissues, red nose - and in Bambi, when his mother's been shot, and he's wandering around calling "Mother? Mother?" Oh yey, get's me every time! 'kay, I'm done, ciao ciao, Esmeralda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 08:53:47 -0500 From: dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: bye/de-lurk/van/bi/covers Message-ID: <199611251405.JAA13446-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Lady Wintersong said: >>>I'm sorry I ever had to say this, but I think I'll do what Jake just did, and leave for a while. I think that if I stay, I'll end up losing my temper, and flaming everyone in sight. And I meant that. *sigh* I know I haven't participated lately, and now you all know why.<<< "'Adieu, Adieu, remember me.' I have sworn't." (sorry if it's misquoted, but i didn't want to pull it out) *sigh* why is everyone going all of a sudden? Do you know what it feels like to keep reading all these good-bye notes? i feel so saddenned. There will always be a small part of my heart (and others' too, i assume) far from this list, lodging instead, with Lady Wintersong and Jake (the one with Korendil will still be near the list), and it's hard to know what to do, but hope that you leave bits of your hearts with us, that we all may still feel whole, and remember each other. Rachel wrote: >Warning: delurking occuring! I think I have something to teach the Klingons >about not being seen! Why? How long have you been lurking? >For casting Amberdrake I see Adrian Paul. This explains a bit. Actually, you know, i like that good choice. Ooooo, what about Teri Hatcher as Hulda? >On the Van thing: he couldn't have gone to teach magecraft as there would >have been nobody to teach. IIRC, in MP ( one of them ) Van finds out that >someone was causing accidents to occur to all those with the magegift before >they were able to use it. The reason that Van didn't get killed was that >his gifts were blocked while growing up. Actually, accidents were happening to those children *when* their mage-potential matured (for lack of a better word) to mage-gift. When the gate energy backlashed through Vanyel was Leareth's attempt to kill him. But Savil managed to save him. The logic goes that once Vanyel killed Leareth, the children would stop getting killed off, and mage-gifted people would start popping up again. i understand how this would work, but am not sure whether it would be more true to Van's character for him to die or not. Heather Wegemer (not hth -- what she said): >>>I feel it more basic than that. Ms. Lackey seldom depicts promiscuity in her characters -- while they are in the volume, at least, she likes them to pick one _person_ (two in _really_ special cases like Eric, Bethany, and Korendil). If she does not like to depict a person having sexual relationships -- which, if I am not mistaken (and I may well be) forms the core of sexuality -- with multiple people, it would be _quite_ problematic to depict relationships with multiple genders. We don't see two concurrent heterosexual relationships, nor two concurrent homosexual relationships at the same time, so it may follow logically that we do not see a concurrent homosexual and heterosexual relationship.<<< We're not asking for a bisexul orgy or love-in. This is another misconception that bisexuals have both sexes in the bed at the same time. Well, honey, "it ain't neccessarily so." We're not often that lucky, and it's hard to have enough stamina for *two* partners! What we're asking for is a character who is involved with one gender currently, yet who has had relationships with the other gender *that*were*serious*. Or a character who has relationships with two differently gendered people across the course of the book (one at a time is just fine) or trilogy. However, you do have a point in saying that we don't really see that much of her characters having more than one serious relationship. Instead, they find their lifebonded and BIG BOOM!!!!! They're in love, closed book, end of story. Well, Misty's better than *that* but you know what i mean. ObMisty (just in case): i liked/tolerated the early covers, but didn't like the covers for the Winds, and *especially* the gryphons. Like on BG, why does Skan have *jewellery*????? love, free bard woodlark, Acolyte in |"Are you questioning my Music and Song, Knight of Amber|counseling technique?" and Marigold, and party to | -- Deanna Troi deniz's thoughts and computer. | Star Trek: First Contact dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:25:55 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bi/Tremane/Claudia Christian Message-ID: <199611251423.AA135401792-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> >More Cennydd: > > Does anyone else agree with me that the man is >> paranoid to the point of being delusional in SW? I know that we have some >> psych people on the list, so let me ask, what would your diagnosis be of >> Tremane's behavior? > >You know, I agree that he was totally paranoid, but I'd say he was not >insane. He seemed fairly rational. I think that his paranoia was more >a result of living in the Empire/being the potential Heir, etc. He'd >been raised his whole life in an certain atmosphere - he'd learned to >react in specific ways to certain situations - so I'd say he was >conditioned to react the way he did. > I'd have to agree that he was paranoid--after all, the politics at the imperial court _required_ a fair amount of paranoia in order to ensure survival. In a clinical sense, his paranoia didn't impair his daily functioning. It just semed somewhat situation-specific. I haven't read SW in awhile, but I don't recall Tremane being borderline delusional. Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:47:02 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Casting Hulda Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA wrote: > This explains a bit. Actually, you know, i like that good choice. Ooooo, > what about Teri Hatcher as Hulda? Ack! No! Wait, I have a better idea. Remember that Hulda is usually described as "over-lush" and such. Falconsbane mentions that her beauty can get sickening after awhile -- she's "overripe". So, for Hulda, how about Pamela Anderson-Lee????? Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Don't go down the cargo bay Adept, God of Procrastination | when there's no ship in dock. Heathen #???, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | You just might hear marracas clack mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | and get a nasty shock." http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | Carmen Miranda's Ghost - Leslie Fish ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 09:54:00 PST From: Wyrick D TSgt CS/SCBC To: mercedes-lackey Subject: RE: Jake leaving... Message-ID: <3299DDC4-+AT+-smtpgw.beale.af.mil> Couldn't agree more! It's wonderful to see someone offering solutions as well as criticism. Dan ---------- From: mercedes-lackey[SMTP:mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 25, 1996 06:54 AM To: wyrickd Subject: Re: Jake leaving... At 11:23 PM 11/24/96 GMT, Soljan-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > I have been on this list since March, and it seems like it has been an >eternity. I've seen people come, and people go. And many have stayed. For >those of you who have stayed, let me ask you this. It seems that something >like this happens every few months. Tensions build up and things happen. > The only other thing I can think of right now is the infamous religion topic >that created many many hurt feelings. It seems that every few months the >list has a major argument, and people get hurt. Perhaps it was the >aftermath of the not-as-bad Van dying topic that lead up to this. I don't >know. Since you ask, without naming names, here are the problems as I see them: (1) The list is _not_ friendly to newbies. The list is dominated by a select few who have extremely forceful personalities and a "coded" means of communicating that they interpret as "joking" but which newbies have no means of interpreting in that manner. (2) The list practices censorship. Newbies are told that this list is a place to discuss their questions about Misty's works, but when they try to do just that, two or three people jump all over them, screaming about the FAQs that list all of these forbidden topics--which just happen to be the topics newbies want to discuss the most. So people find themselves on a list where they get yelled at for trying to talk about exactly what it was they wanted to talk about so badly that they joined the list in the first place. (3) The list flames first (privately as well as publically) and asks questions later. A select few list members think that long association with the list entitles them to flame newer members (sometimes unjustly) at will. The list is so trigger-happy that over half the posts that are not from longtime members are couched in language that is self-deprecating in an attempt to avoid being flamed or sound as if the poster is diving for cover in anticipation that flames will be heading his/her way the instant the message posts. (4) The list flames newer members who sound authoritative on a subject without asking if they really are authorities on that subject. Longtime members are able to expound upon their fields of expertise without comment, yet newer members are silenced by an onslaught of largely private (but sometimes public) flames the instant they suggest that they might know something about an area that is under discussion. (5) The list has a double-standard for longtime members and newbies. Newer members, like myself, who talk on topic but who have computer systems that cannot braid get attacked for something over which they have no control. Conversely, longtime members can offer dozens of one-line messages with no Misty content whatsoever (or even "fluff" pieces that go on for several screens), and yet they fail to receive criticism, and often do receive praise, for their efforts. The result has been the creation of an environment of fear in which mailboxes are clogged with fluff, rhetorical ObMisty questions proliferate and anything that comes up that's on topic gets shot down with "Read the FAQs" or intentional and/or unintentaional flames. Suggested solutions? (1) Try to avoid the use of irony and sarcasm as forms of humor when writing to the list. These are the types of humor that are most frequently misunderstood/misinterpretted because people cannot see your face or hear your voice. (2) Let the newbies talk about what they want to talk about. You don't have to participate in every Thread, and I would much rather have my mailbox clogged with posts naming the four major Celtic holidays or discussing whether or not Van was a Bard than have it clogged with flames and resignations and apologies. (3) Ask questions if you are unclear about someone's position, read the answer carefully, and only then post a contrary position if you disagree with what was said. But do _not_ flame. Ever. (4) Question ideas, evidence and conclusions, but do not attack someone's right to address an issue or to sound as if they know what they are talking about. As much as we call each other friends, we are largely complete strangers. We know almost nothing about each other's training and/or background. The person you attack might very well be an internationally recognized expert in the field you are discussing or s/he might know absolutely nothing about the topic. Better to play it safe than to inadvertently insult fellow list members. (5) The list needs to make up its collective mind about why it exists. If it is a place for people to discuss Misty's works, then people should not be flamed for discussing Misty's works. If it is a place to post pages and pages of fluff and to make offhand comments about Misty every now and then, then people should not be flamed for posting things like chain letters. (I actually find the chain letters I've seen far less annoying than screen after screen of people deifying each other.) If the list is a place to do both, then both activities should be allowed without people screaming about how much they have to pay for e-mail or what format someone does or does not answer messages in. If anything goes, then anything goes for everyone equally. But if everything is supposed to be on topic, then that restriction should apply to everyone equally as well. As I said, these are simply suggested solutions to the problems that I noted above. You may not agree with me on what the problems are on this list; that is certainly your right. But things are definitely falling apart here, and these are what I see as the major reasons why. Danya ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 982 *********************************