MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 985

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Selenay, braiding, and various bits
	by Phil Cartier <philcartier-+AT+-earthlink.net>
  2) Selenay, braiding, and various bits
	by Phil Cartier <philcartier-+AT+-earthlink.net>
  3) Re: Jake leaving...Sorry, kinda long
	by erikaplajer-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer)
  4) Acckkk!!!/Order/characters/parnoid delusions
	by Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com
  5) newbies/faq/braids/idra/theatre/gifts
	by DawnRain <dawnrain-+AT+-geocities.com>
  6) Re: An Elder Speaks
	by "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
  7) Eldan was in the Arrows books...*grin*  (Txtevi...or however you abbreviate that.)
	by mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa)
  8) HTH
	by "Hth." <R618-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU>
  9) Reply to: Braiding pros&cons
	by Rozanna McNeer <rozanm-+AT+-wow.com>
 10) bi vs. promiscous/guruism
	by Khenta Blaufalk <bhanel-+AT+-aixterm1.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
 11) Re: faq
	by Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
 12) Someone find me a rocking chair...
	by Icewolf <Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-BAYLOR.EDU>
 13) Theatre in Valdemar
	by singer-+AT+-iglobal.net
 14) These topics are open-season
	by Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
 15) Re:Gleemen/An Apprentice List Member
	by "Rex T. Garretson" <rtg1-+AT+-Ra.MsState.Edu>
 16) Starting over
	by Sandra K Haas <sandrah-+AT+-umich.edu>
 17) Hades leaving?/Casting Amberdrake/Gryphon jewels/Selenay's marriage
	by Rainwood/Jefferson <macstager-+AT+-earthlink.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:51:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Phil Cartier <philcartier-+AT+-earthlink.net>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Selenay, braiding, and various bits
Message-ID: <199611261751.JAA22458-+AT+-cyprus.it.earthlink.net>

Ok, everybody, I got home and found out that my mom and 
sister had subscribed to the list. Mom came up with a really interesting
question. Why did Selenay's father and Companion let her marry Karethanellan
(sp, Elspeth's father)? Caryo's noninterference can be explained by
Companions insisting on not screwing around with their Chosen (Mom is saying
that she finds this arguement unlikely in the extreme cause Companions are
_always_ interfering). But why would Selenay's father let her marry a bully
who would never be Chosen?
And why didn't Caryo _say_ something? Mom just said that he may have been
the most charming bastard in the world, but Compainions do better than to
just buy _charm_.
Mom is sitting here wondering about braiding and all the fuss so I'll let
her ask her own questions.

I can see were making it clear you are quoting someone 
is very important, but as a _Very Newbie_ (not only to the list, but
computers as well) I don't have a clue as to what you mean by _BRAIDING_!??
It sounds tricky, like French Braids :-)?????<-----Em would probably confirm
that I'm at least slightly _deranged_(SP?)
We have three teenagers!!!!! (I don't think Mom's deranged, but my brother
and sister do) BUT why all the fuss?  It almost sounds like , if you can't
_braid_ , DON'T WRITE?!!!!  this last weeks list (we just this week joined)
has been _interesting_ as in >may you live in INTERESTING times< (old
Chinese BLESS/CURSE:-D)  I'm praying it's not often like this.  So, How do
you _BRAID_ with a computer?  I don't see any hair?:-)

Ok, I'm back. Lots of interesting conversations going on at home (mostly
consisting of "how do you like college" or <from the dog> "please play with
me :-(" ).
I'm sad to see all the touchy tempers and I've been trying to help cut down
on that, but please, everyone, wait a bit before sending something to the
list. If it's a flame, you might think better of it, or at least change the
address. (Mom just said "What's with this chocolate covered sheep thing.
It's interesting, but it wasn't covered in the FAQ.") If something really
bothers you, please please please please please think before you hit the
"send" button (Mom says "Our equivelent of a nuclear warhead button").

Please take all of this with IMHO's and IMO's and grains of salt and
chocolate sheep candies to taste.

Emily the invisible (and her mother, Mary Cartier) 


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:55:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Phil Cartier <philcartier-+AT+-earthlink.net>
To: Mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Selenay, braiding, and various bits
Message-ID: <199611261755.JAA22780-+AT+-cyprus.it.earthlink.net>

>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:48:30
>To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
>From: Phil Cartier <philcartier-+AT+-earthlink.net>
>Subject: Selenay, braiding, and various bits
>
>Ok, everybody, I got home and found out that my mom and 
>sister had subscribed to the list. Mom came up with a really interesting
question. Why did Selenay's father and Companion let her marry Karethanellan
(sp, Elspeth's father)? Caryo's noninterference can be explained by
Companions insisting on not screwing around with their Chosen (Mom is saying
that she finds this arguement unlikely in the extreme cause Companions are
_always_ interfering). But why would Selenay's father let her marry a bully
who would never be Chosen?
>And why didn't Caryo _say_ something? Mom just said that he may have been
the most charming bastard in the world, but Compainions do better than to
just buy _charm_.
>Mom is sitting here wondering about braiding and all the fuss so I'll let
her ask her own questions.
>
>I can see were making it clear you are quoting someone 
>is very important, but as a _Very Newbie_ (not only to the list, but
computers as well) I don't have a clue as to what you mean by _BRAIDING_!??
It sounds tricky, like French Braids :-)?????<-----Em would probably confirm
that I'm at least slightly _deranged_(SP?)
>We have three teenagers!!!!! (I don't think Mom's deranged, but my brother
and sister do) BUT why all the fuss?  It almost sounds like , if you can't
_braid_ , DON'T WRITE?!!!!  this last weeks list (we just this week joined)
has been _interesting_ as in >may you live in INTERESTING times< (old
Chinese BLESS/CURSE:-D)  I'm praying it's not often like this.  So, How do
you _BRAID_ with a computer?  I don't see any hair?:-)
>
>Ok, I'm back. Lots of interesting conversations going on at home (mostly
consisting of "how do you like college" or <from the dog> "please play with
me :-(" ).
>I'm sad to see all the touchy tempers and I've been trying to help cut down
on that, but please, everyone, wait a bit before sending something to the
list. If it's a flame, you might think better of it, or at least change the
address. (Mom just said "What's with this chocolate covered sheep thing.
It's interesting, but it wasn't covered in the FAQ.") If something really
bothers you, please please please please please think before you hit the
"send" button (Mom says "Our equivelent of a nuclear warhead button").
>
>Please take all of this with IMHO's and IMO's and grains of salt and
chocolate sheep candies to taste.
>
>Emily the invisible (and her mother, Mary Cartier) 
>


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:56:50 EST
From: erikaplajer-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Jake leaving...Sorry, kinda long
Message-ID: <19961126.125530.7431.1.ErikaPlajer-+AT+-juno.com>


On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:30:45 GMT ShadowJaz-+AT+-aol.com writes:
>Advise them
>what the topics are and that it's best not to bring them up, however, 
>suggest
>that they get together with other newbies, and anyone else interested 
>in the
>topic, to discuss it offlist. That way it would be a compromise, and 

  Might I ask a simple, newbie-ish question? Why do people have to
discuss *off-list* what is *on-topic* FOR this list? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:07:10 -0500
From: Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Acckkk!!!/Order/characters/parnoid delusions
Message-ID: <961126130701_1519693796-+AT+-emout17.mail.aol.com>

Rackafassm computer!!  I've been down for nearly a week.  Stupid A drive
died(cheap computer).  At the rate were replacing things they'll be very
little of the original computer left when we're finished.  Of course when the
drive died, we didn't figure out what was wrong until after we'd wiped the
hard drive.  I had a few things that weren't backed up.  Its enough to make a
preacher cuss!!!  Ok, got that out of my system.  Excuse the minor rant and
bid for sympathy<G>.  I'm not even gonna try to catch up--just start with the
latest digests.

**********
Cara asked:

>>Ok.. So I'm starting the Velgarth books again.  Just curious, do people
when
they re-read, do they re-read in Velgarth chronological order?  <<  

Oddly enough, I don't even particularly read a whole book.<G>   Sometimes
I'll be in the mood for a particular segment or scene.  Sometimes I'll start
with one area then go back and start from the beginning.  For instance I
recently re-read Arrows of the Queen, then skipped ahead to the last chapters
of Arrows Fall.  Having had the dose I needed, I put the book aside and went
back to my current orgy of Charlotte MacLeod mysteries<G>.  

*********
Ken wrote:

>>Of course, the whole question of what label a character should be given is
sort of counter to the idea that sexuality is a personal identification
(okay, I realize that as purely fictional creations, they aren't capable of
having their own personal identities, but you know what I mean).<<

Amen on the sexuality as personal identification!  Why is it important to
classify any given character as hetero, gay or bi?  Its like classifying
people by their skin color.  Its inherently wrong & a little stupid.  Its
more important to see the person inside and not the vessel for the spirit.  

On the business about purely fictional creations not capable of having their
own personalities, I have to utterly disagree.  Characters, like any living
person, have a tendency to change in strange and sometimes frustrating ways.
 I always look at developing my characters as trying to get to know who they
are.  Like making a new friend.  To me, as a writer, my characters are alive.
 When I read, if the characters aren't real to me, then I'm not interested.  

Then he said:

>>In fact, she does such a good job, that it doesn't even look like insanity
until you step back and pull yourself outside the character position.  Of
course, the character I am talking about is Tremane.  Does anyone else agree
with me that the man is
paranoid to the point of being delusional in SW?<<

Actually, he is a bit paranoid.  But then if you look at Imperial society,
he's perfectly normal.  The best way to survive as a member of the Imperial
Court is to be paranoid.  That same paranoia has helped him survive to become
the top candidate to rule the Empire.  Society tends to shape us despite
ourselves.  When you live in a society where you either kill or be
killed--you learn to be a killer and suspect everybody else.  Not a fun way
to live.   
Is he sane?  Not by our standards, but he is sane by Imperial standards.
 Several people have come down on the "sane" side in light of Tremane's
subsequent actions.  Thats not a fair judgement.  Instead, I think we're
seeing a person who gets turned back from insanity before its too late to
save him.  Interesting that like most of Misty's villans he is insane.  When
he is no longer the true villan, he has regained sanity.

Well, saved me from an obMisty<G>!
********
Ken replied to Kory's query on using him as a threat:

>>Yes, I do.  Well, not big bunchies or anything, but some.  I have enough
problems convincing people on this list that I am not some horrible monster
who lives to flame anyone who steps out of line.<<

I was so honored with one of those humorous flamings shortly after I came to
the list.  I never mistook it as mean or censorious.  After a moment or two
of amazed befuddlement, I kinda enjoyed the honor.  I mean its not every day
you get so elegantly razed.<G>  Now, unless you have serious objections, I'd
like to add to my sig "Elite Clax of the Drifting Ashes" (pardon if my
terminology has poor or bad connotations.  I've been playing in the Thesaurus
again<G>) and encourage my comrades to do the same.  I ask permission because
I don't like exasperating people.(well not much <weg> ).  There's also the
added bonus that if all of us who've been gently toasted tout it proudly, why
should anyone live in fear of your attentions?  


Glithoniel
Goddess of Tardiness
Lady of the Pink Wand
Mistress of Willowhawk (in exile)

"Writers aren't exactly people. . . they're a whole lot of people trying to
be 
  one person."  -- F. Scott Fitzgerald 
 


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:24:27 -0700
From: DawnRain <dawnrain-+AT+-geocities.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: newbies/faq/braids/idra/theatre/gifts
Message-ID: <329B35DA.2A6F-+AT+-geocities.com>

Firemist rants a while and then says:
> ps, I remember when I joined in Feb that I saw a lot of asbestos, rings of Fire
> Resistance, etc going on, but I thought that was just a quirky way of saying
> 'this is what i think/my opinion, and I'm willing to hear your side even if it
> wildly disagrees with mine'. I never thought I or anyone else was being
> self-deprecating <sp?> Do you other newbies (have Danya's opinion--
> want the rest!) truly feel that way?

<Star raises hand> I'm a newbie, I think, do I count?  Hmm...  My
opinion.  I'm a rather shy kinda person most of the time, so I don't
often initiate conversations on things like this for a while.  So I
haven't run into being yelled at for bringing up something that's been
done to death because I haven't brought much UP...  But I've been
watching for a little while anyway, and it sometimes(SOMETIMES, please
note) seems as if people get jumped all over for HOW they post rather
than have people actually read the content of the post.  Also there's
gotta be a lot of newbies who haven't seen the "done to the death"
subjects(whatever they may be, and I am just now going to try to
check<sheeps>) and I'm one of them...  Anys, I thought I'd share my
opinion since opinions were requested...  that I see everyone's point
and like it that way.<grin>

Speaking of the FAQ, I tried having it mailed to me and I got FAQ 1,2,3,
and 5, but never recieved 4, which is the "frequently discussed topic"
list, and I am now looking it up on the page.  It also seems to be
rather short--two topics--and I remember hearing that there are
more.<shrug>  Also, right at the top of the page it says "we do not want
to put anyone off discussing these topics, but just to note that there
has been a good deal of discussion on them already" which in my mind
says go ahead and talk about it if you must, so I agree with those that
say "If you don't like it, skip it".


As for the many people writing about braids...  I have attempted it my
past few notes and I rather like doing it because it gives me a chance
to read other replies on the same thing before I send them off, so I
don't end up saying something that three other people just said, simply
because I haven't read it yet.  It's rather easy for me, and it makes
sense to me, and I hope I'm doing a decent job of making sense to
everyone else.


On another discussion entirely...
Lee sez:
> That's it--all the textevd, but enough for me to leap to a conclusion.
> It's just occurred to me that maybe somewhere there's been another
> character with a name similar to Idry; Idra was simply who I thought of
> first.

Yeah, and I found it a little after I wrote my question...<grin> 
INteresting, to say the least.


Re: Theatre in Valdemar
I don't know about in *Valdemar* specifically, but it seems odd there
wasn't at least a small theatre company (skits, one-acts, and the like)
with the group going into Hardorn w/Elspeth, Darkwind, Firesong, Nyara,
& co.  Also, when Tremane had all the stuff from the supply depot he
raided, there was stuff for a play in it, that he couldn't figure out
why it was there(textevd on request).


Nina sed:
> I'd like to know more about Heralds with unusual gifts.  Davan had
> firestarting, and Eldan had animal mindspeech.  What other "gifts" could
> Misty incorporate into later books?

And what other gifts might Companions have?  Gwena admitted that they
tap into mage-energy to get speed and endurance, and Leshya had
Mind-Healing, we've been discussing Foresight in a vague sense of the
word, what else?  Oh yes, 'Fandes was doing "A sort of Fetching" with
Stef.  Anys, there's my addition to the wondering about odd gifts.<grin>

Star

-- 
Kris Bailey--Aka MorningStar, NightFire, DawnRain, and names too
darn numerous to include in this list.  E-mail-- morningstar-+AT+-poetic.com
dawnrain-+AT+-geocities.com bv165-+AT+-freenet.uchsc.edu kris.bailey-+AT+-sdoct.com
dawnrain00-+AT+-aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9763

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:36:58 -0800
From: "Linda Malcor, Ph.D" <legend-+AT+-oxy.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: An Elder Speaks
Message-ID: <199611261836.KAA05968-+AT+-latimes.com>

At 05:57 PM 11/26/96 GMT, Hth. wrote:
>There is no way around the Degree Trap once it has been set.  I'm still
>upset because when Kerry -- one of the nicest "oldies" on this list, and
>the last who would wander around wantonly insulting people -- tried to
>discuss Arthurian legend and its relationship to tragic conventions in
>storytelling with an Arthurian scholar, he got smacked down and told in
>no uncertain terms that he had no business talking about this unless his
>credentials were equal to those of a professional in the field.  This
>was in no way necessary.  The same information could have been imparted
>without telling him he was too damn ignorant to play this reindeer game.
>All conversation about the relationship between King Arthur's story and
>Vanyel's was quashed, and I think there was a vein of substance to that
>thread.  Now we'll never know.

I want to clarify this, since I'm the Arthurian scholar in question.  The
reason I lashed out at Kerry on this particular topic was that his post, as
far as I could tell, said point blank that I knew nothing about the
Arthurian legends, that I obviously did not know the story of King Arthur
and that, therefore, I was just plain wrong in the point I was trying to
make.  The fact is that I do know a great deal about King Arthur (My
dissertation was on the Holy Grail, I co-authored the chapter on Arthur for
Time-Life/Europe's _Mystic Dawn_, I regularly publish and lecture and teach
the legends, and I have a book going into Japanese translation on the topic
in March 1997, which I am _very_ excited about.), and I found it deeply,
deeply insulting to be told otherwise.  I'm sorry I lashed out, but I think
my reaction was understandable.  That comment hurt.  A lot.  And it
obviously still does, or I wouldn't be bothering to make a post like this.

Danya


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:44:54 -0700 (MST)
From: mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk
Subject: Eldan was in the Arrows books...*grin*  (Txtevi...or however you abbreviate that.)
Message-ID: <199611261844.LAA02408-+AT+-primenet.com>

Heyla folks, older, newer and in-betweener,

>>Cara S. Smith wrote:

>OBMistiy.. sorta.. kinda.. maybe.. um.. if I can think of one.. lessee.. You
>know what bugged me about BTS and the Arrows?  Eldan.  I mean, Eldan was a
>friend of Selenay's, and obviously well known Herald, and he's not mentioned
>until BTS.  I know, I know... BTS was done later.  I know all the
>author-type reasons, but it still bugs me, as a reader.  


        Okay.  Recall with me now, the scene where the Heralds are having a
revel.  The one where Skif returns.  Now...<running to find the book so she
can quote exactly>

        Arrow Flight, chapter two, page56:

        "The three of them slipped in as quietly as possible to avoid
disturbing the entertainment in progress- a tale being told with some skill
by a middle-aged Herald whose twin streaks of grey, one at each temple,
stood out startilingly in the firelight."

        Sure sounds like our boy Eldan to me!  *grin*  Anybody else want to
take a crack at this?  (Not a shot...I've lost my bullet-proof vest!)

Love, Lust and Linoleum,
'Reesa
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 'Reesa >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
INTERVIEWER: "Could you destroy the earth with 
the power of your mind?
TICK:  Egads!  I _hope_ not!  That's where I 
keep all my _stuff_!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
http://www.angelfire.com/az/LadyReesa/index.html


------------------------------

Date:        Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:53:04 CST
From: "Hth." <R618-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: HTH
Message-ID:  <26NOV96.13915512.0025.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU>

Yes, that's right!  By me..about me!  A veritable ego-fest.

Actually, I just want to fill y'all in on a couple of things here.
First off, I have been getting *tons* of private e-mail lately.  As in,
thirty or so a day.  I love the attention (really, you have no idea),
but between the list, my Celtic mailing list, my personal friends (some
3-D, some I only "see" over e-mail -- yeah, you know who you are; write
me back, you bastard), and trying to graduate in the near future (yeah,
believe it or not, I do still go to class sometimes), I have a hell of a
lot of trouble keeping up.

So, my general rule of thumb is that I respond to people who ask me
questions (about half), and not to those who just write to say "thanks"
or "cool" or answer my Xena questions.  To you guys, I do appreciate it,
I swear.  Really brightens my day.  I just don't have time to say
anything meaningful.

I also have a nasty tendancy to delete messages before remembering to
respond, so some of you have been lost in the cracks.  If you wrote me
with something that wanted a response and didn't get it, you might try
me again.  Sorry about that.

But.  This is Thanksgiving weekend, and I am outta here, so I won't be
receiving mail for the rest of the week.  (Yes, this means you can gripe
behind my back.  I probably won't read all nine hundred messages on
Sunday night.) *If there is something* that needs my attention this
week, I can be reached.  My she'enedra has foolishly accepted
responsibility for receiving my mail.  She has no idea.

The address is:
magik-+AT+-socketis.net
Just stick "Hth." or the near equivalent in the subject line, so she
knows to drag me over to the computer.

Other than that, I'm kicking back this weekend to play Changeling, catch
up with my 3-D friends, and bond with our new kitten.  Heck, I may even
work on my novel, now that I have that bloody short story finished and
out of my hair.  To the U.S.ites, happy Thanksgiving, and to the rest,
happy whatever you're planning this week.

Thanks again for all the kind e-mail of the last month.  I'll be back
next week, trying to answer as best I can.  You guys are cool.


HTH
Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand
Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold
r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:24:33 -0500
From: Rozanna McNeer <rozanm-+AT+-wow.com>
To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" <MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK>
Subject: Reply to: Braiding pros&cons
Message-ID: <199611261428_MC1-C6E-A227-+AT+-compuserve.com>


Rainwood said <quoting a lot to give thread context

>>Cara S. Smith wrote:
>> Ok.. I can't hold my mouth shut anymore.  I hate braids.  Abhor them.  
>>How ABSOLUTELY necessary are braids anyway?  

The aren't necessary since some off us can't do them.

>Rainwood said (in response to Cara):
>This was interesting - because I really like braiding.  I like getting the same 
>amount of information in 10 posts that otherwise would take 50 <g>. 

this is true! <g> when the braid brings together several related threads like
the Vanyel braids did, then I don't mind. Unrelated threads into one braid
are a bit <IMO> disconcerting because I have to change mental gears
rather abruptly, since I'm used to seeing one post from one person dealing
with 1-3 topics at a time. Braids deal with 2+ up to where ever <how many 
threads ~did~ Kory work into his 22K post? my server had heart failure each
time i tried to read it, and I never did get a chance to read it. . .  /mock
horrified tone on/ Stop! don't forward it to me! my poor server!!! /mock horrified
tone off/>

Rainwood:
>If there  is an aspect to a braid that I am not interested
>in, I generally skim over it until I get to a new "portion". :)I like
>braiding because it saves me time - I only have to send one post instead
>of replying to 5 or 6 separately. It's really easy to cut & paste with
>my software though, and I realize that not everyone has that
>capability.  Why do you hate them, may I ask?  I'm curious!

The few times I've tried braiding (back when I had a ~real~ server in holland. 
waves at Esmerelda. Groetjes, Debbi!!!) I've forgotten what exactly it was I 
wanted to say in response to some posts, which is irritating. So I just respond
post/threads one at a time.

Firemist

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:06:03 +0100 (CET)
From: Khenta Blaufalk <bhanel-+AT+-aixterm1.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: bi vs. promiscous/guruism
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.91.961126200709.58646C-100000-+AT+-aixterm8.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>

> Heather wrote:
=20
> Ms. Lackey seldom depicts promiscuity in her characters=20

> If she does not like to depict a person having sexual relationships --=20
> which, if I am not mistaken (and I may well be) forms the core of=20
> sexuality -- with multiple people, it would be _quite_ problematic to=20
> depict relationships with multiple genders.

Your post made me think that you're equaling bisexuality with=20
promiscuity. Do you really think that or was it a misreading on my part?=20
Being bisexual does not mean you necessarily have several relationships=20
with people of either gender at the same time.=20

> We don't see two=20
> concurrent heterosexual relationships, nor two concurrent homosexual=20
> relationships at the same time, so it may follow logically that we do=20
> not see a concurrent homosexual and heterosexual relationship.

That statement is true in itself, but as it has been stated before: we=20
have yet to see a main character (meaning of the same scale as e.g.=20
Vanyel or Elspeth or Talia, referring to POV in the story) who is bisexual,=
=20
i.e. depicted as having <had> intimate/sexual relationships with either=20
gender (just as there hasn't been a female shaych lead character before).
=20
We see "straight" relationships and we see a "gay" relationship (again,=20
only referring to the main POVs). Nothing inbetween. Huh. Now that I=20
think of it, the Eric/Korendil story fits, either, 'cause they don't=20
clearly describe it as a very intimate or sexual relationship (see 2nd=20
part of post).

I do not think that Amberdrake counts as bi, 'cause we've only=20
seen him in a hetero relationship,  and possible same-sex encounters=20
stay, IIRC, in the professional/business sphere of his life.=20
Silverfox is a minor character (I feel obligated to state at this point=20
that I have only read SW so far, so I can't say this with certainty for the=
=20
following books), so he is out as a bi main character, too.

> Again, while she=20
> is open to alternative sexuality in terms of gender and even number,=20
> Ms. Lackey seems to shy away from even a suggestion of promiscuity.
=20
You are contradicting yourself, as I see it. Promiscuity, as I understand=
=20
it, _does_ refer to the number, i.e. the number of people with which one=20
has a relationship.=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Lee wrote:

> Oh yeah, there is Korendil!  But I thought that got pretty downplayed.  I=
n
> KoG&S, Eric wasn't ready to deal with it yet, so we understandably didn't
> see much, and Summoned to Tourney didn't have anything more-than-
> friend-ish happen between Eric & Kory except some "horseplay" in the
> shower and the scene at the Faire tent where Eric notices (with a bit of
> possessive pride, I thought) how Korendil stuns everyone.  *Very* low-key=
..

See, this is what I meant while mentioning E&K above. She just put it=20
better to words.

> =09Somewhere at the beginning (?) of this thread, Khenta protested
> that Misty is not any kind of guru, partly on the basis of an interview i=
n
> which she denied pretensions to guruhood.

I didn't quite protest, just stated what she herself (in an author's note=
=20
at the end of Sacred Ground, FYI) has said.

> =09I think that a lot of writers in the fantasy genre write about
> what they see as right and wrong;

Well, don't all authors do that, a little bit at least? Maybe sometimes it'=
s=20
not all sermon and preaching, but very subtle, sometimes sarcastic or=20
ironic, but as I see it, that's what about every author does.

> doing so doesn't make Misty a guru, but
> she does come off as a bit guruish when she uses the ruminations &
> speeches of her characters to expound on her notions of what constitutes
> ethical behavior.

I've never experienced her books that way. Sometimes I happen to agree=20
with her, sometimes I don't, but her books are no catechism? for me. Nor=20
are any author's. I have to find out for myself what is ethical and what=20
is not. For myself, (probably) easy answers that are (probably) given in=20
books are not the way. Please note that I don't want to step on anybody's=
=20
toes in their regard of believes or religion, just stating how I,=20
personally, for myself, feel about that.

> =09I'm not criticizing your point of view, Khenta, just taking the
> opportunity to state my own.

I didn't feel you did. IIRC I _was_ asking for clarification of that=20
point. Now that I've had some of it, it's ok. I just don't agree on that=20
point of view.



Walk in beauty

Khenta Blaufalk                          bhanel-+AT+-ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
aka Skyfire k'Vala, Goddess of Incomplete Vocabulary and Garbled Grammar=20
=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=
=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=
=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:12:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: faq
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.961126144857.15550B-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, DawnRain wrote:

> Speaking of the FAQ, I tried having it mailed to me and I got FAQ 1,2,3,
> and 5, but never recieved 4, which is the "frequently discussed topic"
> list, and I am now looking it up on the page.  It also seems to be
> rather short--two topics--and I remember hearing that there are
> more.<shrug>

Hmmm.  This actually came up a bit of time ago (a month or so?).  There
was some proplems with new list-participants bringing up topics that
really had been done to death several times previously, getting flamed by
oldbies, et cetera.  I brought up the point that the FAQ doesn't really
mention any of the frequently discussed topics that people complained
about, and the two topics that are mentioned don't have anything more than
the topic label (no discussion, no answers--It is supposed to be a
Frequently Asked *Questions* file *grin*).  I posted a list of topics that
I have seen in the past year or so cycle through several times, get
thoroughly discussed each time, and then sink into obscurity each time.
My goal (what I was asking for) was help from list-member in assembling a
useful FAQ (which we could send to Mel and ask to have added to the
official FAQ) which would give the topics, a brief overview of the
list-history for the topic, and a summary of the various answers and
postitions that had been taken.  That way, if a new participant had a
question, we could tell them to look in such-and-such a FAQ-file to see if
the answer is already there.  Then, if they found something they disagreed
with, or if their question wasn't answered, or if they had new info or a
new viewpoint, the discussion would proceed on the list with everyone.
But, it really is terribly unfair to say that frequently discussed topics
are offlimits unless we, as a community, are willing to provide the
information in the FAQ.  However, despite my offer to edit and compile
anything that people sent me, and despite providing a list of topics to
get people started, I have significantly not gotten any contributions, and
the Frequently Discussed Topics file sit in my account unfed and
quiescent.  *Whassup wi' dat?*  Maybe I will be able to make some progress
on it over Christmas (it will have to wait 'til then, because I have no
intention of plowing through the archives during the end-of-the-semester
madness that is my life).  

In the meantime, I shall put together my topics list and post it.
However, this time, it will not be a "Frequently Discussed Topics" list
designed to warn new participants about verboten topics.  It will be an
invitation to discuss any and all of the topics as thoroughly and
voluminously as possible. =)  All of the new participants are invited,
encouraged, and otherwise positively welcomed to discuss and analyze to
your hearts contents.  And all of the oldbies who are "sick and tired" of
the discussion can yell and scream and flame at me (off-list of course) as
much as they like. =P  Mind you, unless they have contributed to the FAQ,
I will either just ignore them with complete equanimity or ask them why
they haven't seen fit to contribute. =)  So there! Phhhbttth! *goes off
giggling insanely to himself*


May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:23:19 +0000
From: Icewolf <Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-BAYLOR.EDU>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Someone find me a rocking chair...
Message-ID: <MailDrop1.1.1.961126142319-+AT+-st-eng-dyn-11.baylor.edu>

Okay, I'm a definate "oldie;" I've been on the list since the summer of '94.  
I've been following the thread about newbie-friendliness, and I have some 
thoughts on the idea.

First of all, let me say, there's a reason BESIDES graduate school I've been 
lurking.  It's not just you new guys, but the list has become very...hmmm, 
what's the word I'm looking for..."critical," I guess.  Very negative.  

My first example would be that there's lots of "Let's pound on Misty's writing" 
every time a new book comes out.  We *like* Misty, remember?  At least I still 
do.  And maybe there have been things I didn't like as much as others, but I 
have liked everything.  Yes, even Silver Gryphon. :)

Also, I feel like you have to post in a particular way or risk getting flamed.  
I was beginning to feel as though every time I posted, there was someone sitting 
in authority waiting to pounce on a single wrong word.  I had a very scholarly 
style to my posts.  Once I crossed the line between "scholarly" and pompous.  
These things happen, and the last time I checked, I was human.  Anyway, someone 
flamed me.  Okay, fine, I probably deserved it.  That person and I hammered out 
our differences over private email.  What REALLY annoyed me was the way everyone 
jumped on the bandwagon and feasted like a pack of vultures.  And I've noticed 
this happening again and again with other people.  I'd be willing to bet a lot 
of newbies have been experiencing for the same reasons.

In short, I feel like the list has lost its sense of humor, the wonderful sense 
that it had when we had a virtual tea party. 

Well, folks, I'm pretty sure I've stepped on a lot of toes here, but I don't 
particularly care anymore.  I have a delete button.

-Icewolf


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:25:28 -0600
From: singer-+AT+-iglobal.net
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Theatre in Valdemar
Message-ID: <v01510100aec0b870f342-+AT+-[207.43.170.40]>


I apologize that this is so short, but it is on topic.  Winter asked about
Actors in Valdemar, and Jerry suggested travelling players.  This sounds
likely to me, despite the fact that we never see them.  ( And I agree with
your reasons why we never see them, Jerry). I remember in MPawn,
Moondance's doomed first relationship is with a "gleeman"  As in "then one
summer, a troop of gleemen came to the village."  I offer now that this
might be the reference  Winter hoped for.  Jerry? Anyone? Are gleemen the
same as actors?

My love and best wishes to each of you.  May all be well in your tents.


                                Go Gently,

                                        Tresta

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Tresta shena Jor'ethan                         "Love must live free."
Healer to horses                                        -Shin'a'in Teaching
Knight of Amber and Marigold

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:49:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: Misty Lackey List <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk>
Subject: These topics are open-season
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.961126153835.13896A-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

As I promised in my last post, here is a list of some of the topics that
have previously been discussed on the list.  The details of the
discussions, however, are buried in the archives and known only to Mel the
Redcap and a few of the older members.  I'm am sure that there are a
number of other ones (some of which were on an older version of my
topics-list that got posted about a month ago and then promptly deleted).
However, these were the ones that leapt to mind.  So, here they are.  I
did not include the dreaded circle thread or the issues surrounding the
mime who shall remain nameless, nor the discussion that we just finished
about the ending of LHM.  I think that (even though there are probably
people on her that are new enough not to have seen these discussions-  
-Hi! Mary (Emily's mom)!  Welcome to the list!) feelings on these topics
are still a bit raw and we all need some time to cool down.

In the meantime, here are the topics.  Have fun, and hopefully, out of
the discussions, we will be able to generate a good, useful FDT file (/me
thinks about the absolutely yummy Pterry files at the L-space website).

MUD/MUSH/RPG/Fanfic, does it exist?
	Why won't Misty allow out it?

Casting ("if they made a Valdemar movie, I would like to see X as Y")
	Are they really making a movie?

Are Companions reincarnate Heralds?
	Who is who?
	Can other than Heralds be reincarnated?
	Are all Heralds reincarnated?
	Are Grove-Born also reincarnations?

Gods: Are there more than two?
	Is Vkandis the same as the Shin'a'in God?
	Is the Star-Eyed the same as Kalenel, Vkandis' Consort?
	Who is Astera, Agnetha, etc?

Questions about Misty:
	Is she a witch (wiccan, neopagan, whatever)?
	Is her writing going downhill?
	Does she read this list?
	Does she object to being called Misty?

Topics about LHM:
	How old was Van when he died?
	The whole discussion about 'Lendel/Stef (liked it, hated it,
	   what?)
	Was Van a nice person? (careful with this one, beware the OAM)

Why are so many Misty characters gay?  
	Why no lesbian main characters?
	What is the Kinsey scale and how is it used?
	Do we really have to talk about sexuality?

List specific:

What's with all the abbreviations and titles in peoples' sigs?
What is this thing you people have with sheep?
How do you get to be a God/Goddess?
Are persona-names controlled?
What do all the abbreviations in messages mean?
What is the statute of limitations for spoilers?
	What *are* spoilers, come to think of it?
What is braiding and how and why do you do it?
What is wrong with quoting the whole message and tacking on a few lines of
   commentary?
What does "flame," "fluff," etc. mean?
What's the Mage War?
Is this list Americo-centric?
	What does that mean?
Is this a lgb-friendly list?
	What does "lgb" mean?
What is textevd and do you have to use it?
	Why did Cennydd just start frothing at the mouth?
Who is Sylvia and what is she, that all our swains commend her?


May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:25:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Rex T. Garretson" <rtg1-+AT+-Ra.MsState.Edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re:Gleemen/An Apprentice List Member
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.961126151022.8047B-100000-+AT+-Ra.MsState.Edu>

To answer you question about gleemen, yes they are a type of actor.  In
Robert Jordan's books the gleeman is a type of storyteller/salesman.  One
of his main characters is a gleeman.  These people go around telling
stories and present their wares.  They sometimes come on special
holidays.  

I also want to say something about this business with the newbies.  I have
been on this list about two months.  I have never seen a fan group go
around and  bash the writer they are fans of.  If she were reading this
list what would she think.  I also agree with some of the others when they
are talking about the FAQ list.  I have had many questions i wanted to
discuss but i was afraid of asking for fear of being jumped on by some of
the Master and Adept list members.  What is the use of having a list like
this if people cannot go back and revaluate some of the older material.  I
also believe that some people take things way too seriously on the list.
This list was started as a place where fan of Misty could have friendly
discussions of her work. 
 
Herald-trainee Rex Aigle
 
     a.k.a.
  
  Belrex

www.geocities.com/Area51/1740
belrex-+AT+-geocities.com



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:02:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandra K Haas <sandrah-+AT+-umich.edu>
To: Misty Mail-list Lackey <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Starting over
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.961126164809.27150K-100000-+AT+-breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu>

I have read this list for probably two years.  I say read, because I don't
contribute much.  I either feel it has already been said, or that no one
will care what I say.  I love Misty, I love this list.  Yea, sometimes it
gets fluffy, but I can use the break from my real life.  Yea, sometimes it
is technical and over my head, but I still skim the posts...ya never know
when you might learn something.  But I do cringe at the flames.  I think
that is something we all agree on.  It is ok to not agree with a thought,
but not ok to bash the person doing the thinking.  I have decided that I
will stay on this list until it bores me.  Like many before me have
stated, just because it has been discussed before, doesn't mean that
everyone was 'here' when it happened.  When there are no more insightful
comments, or discussions like the religion one that we had a long time
ago, then I will go.  But till then, Heather, Dayna, Cenn, Jag, Mat, etc,
etc, (I hate naming names, I always forget some!) have all taught me
things, made me think and Laugh.  I think we just need to start over, and
try again.  

Hi!  I'm Sandy and I work at the Univ. of Michigan.  I love Misty and
thanks to many people on this list I belong to, I have also been
introduced to McCaffrey, GGK, Eddings and many more that I haven't gotten
to yet.  My real life is pretty standard, so I enjoy a good read :)

who is next in line???  There are like three hundred of us, que up and
lets see who else is out there!!

Sandy


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:32:22 -0800
From: Rainwood/Jefferson <macstager-+AT+-earthlink.net>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Hades leaving?/Casting Amberdrake/Gryphon jewels/Selenay's marriage
Message-ID: <329AAB16.260-+AT+-earthlink.net>

Hades16-+AT+-aol.com wrote:
>>>  ps(again)-how does one get off the mailing list

I hope that you aren't leaving too.  .  . <sigh> it seems like everyone
is going away.  Well, afaik, you send a message to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk
and leave the subject line blank.  Then, in the body of your message,
you type:
 unsubscribe mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
You might want to check the FAQ for that though - I could be wrong.
Please tell me that it's only for the holidays and not forever <g>.

Rachel wrote:
>For casting Amberdrake I see Adrian Paul.

I love Amberdrake. But who is Adrian Paul? <Rain bats her eyes and looks
confused> I've never heard of him before.

Free Bard Woodlark wrote:
>>>ObMisty (just in case): <major snipping action here>  Like on BG, why does Skan have *jewellery*?????<<<

Afaicr (as far as I can remember), it's because the Gryphons wore
ornamental jewellery. (textevd. WG pg. 300)
**"The Black Gryphon would never again lack for personal ornaments; he
had enough jewelry specially crafted for gryphons to allow him to deck
himself like a veritable kestra'chern!"**
It makes sense, if you think about it.  Every race has some way to
*decorate* themselves.  Q: the higher the status, the more jewellery?
Does anyone remember if Treyvan and Hydona wore ornaments and if so, how
would a gryphon put jewelry without human aid? <looking perplexed>

Re Woodlark and a few others I accidentally deleted:
On Kahlil Gibran, make that another big lover of his work.  We used part
of _The Prophet_ during our wedding.  (Okay, so we also used a line from
_Braveheart_ during the vows, but. . .) His writing is so profound.

Emily the Invisible said: <Rain looks around frantically>
I can't believe I deleted that post!  Okay, Emily said something along
the lines of "Why didn't Selenay's father prevent her marriage to
wossname, the Evil Rethwellan Prince from H*ll." (I'm paraphrasing, she
didn't actually say that.)

Selenay married wossname AFTER she became queen, which was after the
Tedrel Wars.  Her father was killed in one of those battles, which is
why she inherited the throne and why he didn't prevent the marriage. <g>
As for why Caryo didn't prevent it, remember, the Companions didn't
meddle overmuch in the lives of their Chosen.  I don't have the textevd
at hand, but I seem to recall somebody saying that Caryo wouldn't have
anything to do with him. IMSHO, if Selenay had been paying attention
she'd have noticed that.  But she wasn't.  She was too busy getting
swept off her feet, and the current MO was too embarrassed to say
anything.

Bright the day everybody - 

Rainwood <macstager-+AT+-earthlink.net>

------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 985
*********************************