MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1005 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Trek by "Hth." 2) Don't-miss Musicals by "Hth." 3) Re: universe/ bondbirds/ sympathize vs empathize/ inconsistenci by Korendil 4) a braid (even tho I hate them) intro/elspeth/bondbirds by "Cara S. Smith" 5) almost all non-Misty stuff by "Romylee A. Ejercito" 6) Re: Companions/Horses/Companions vs. Bondbirds by Lady Windsong 7) Elspeth - a plaudit by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 8) Re: webpages, Re:bondbirds by Chris & Sean Talbot 9) Re: Tayledras by Chris & Sean Talbot 10) Re: universe/ bondbirds/ sympathize vs empathize/ by Chris & Sean Talbot 11) Re: Tayledras by Bruce Hunt 12) caring heart/space/Valdemar/Shin'a'in-Tayledras wordlist by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 13) Wizard books (NT admin)/musicals/Elspeth by "Emily L Cartier" 14) Companions/Bondbirds/Gryphons/Webpage by Wintershard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 23:34:14 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Trek Message-ID: <05DEC96.25456384.0029.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> I really am not being mean here, but I'd like to say something about the Trekkie thread. I got extremely irritated when I first started hearing the Trekkie/Trekker debate, which sprung up after Next Gen became so popular, as a way for "sophisticated" people to distance themselves from the original Star Trek fans, who got such uniformly bad press as psychos (remember the Shatner SNL sketch? "Get a life!!" That was the only way most people knew anything about Trek fandom.) Sure, there were some ear-wearin' weirdos among the Trekkies. Still are. (I had an annoying encounter at the last con I went to with a bunch of Bajorans. I was this close to sending a check to the Cardassian government.) But these were the people who saved Trek from being cancelled after its second season, and they were the people who hung in there for over fifteen years. Without them, there would have been no Motion Picture (okay, so that might have been a good thing, but you get the point), no Next Gen, no nothing. I don't believe for a second that the majority of these people were just impressed by salt-shaker tricorders, go-go booted aliens, and Shatner's acting. They were the *first* people to get behind the content of Star Trek, to be loyal to the idea that humankind has the potential to transcend itself in this world, not just the afterlife. These were the people who lived through Viet Nam and Birmingham and said, "I will not accept that it has to be this way." They were Trekkies, okay? Back when it wasn't cool. I'm not blaming anyone who uses the Trekker thing, because it *has* taken over as the politically correct term, and lots of Star Trek fans do get hacked off if you don't use it. I just dislike the sense of snobbery that seems to me to be responsible for the idea that we *needed* another word. Talk about a lack of respect for one's own history. You know, my father was a Trekkie in 1963. He's never been to a convention, but he has a book with all the original series episodes in it, the day he first saw each episode and commentary penciled in the margins. So I guess he's a wee bit odd about it But he loved Star Trek because he cared about it and believed in it, and he loves Star Trek today for the same reason. And he's *always* called himself a Trekkie. I'm not too good to call myself the same thing. I was in the theater for the first showing of Search for Spock (yeah, I'm always there on opening night, even for the odd-numbered movies ), and it was packed. Some people were there in their Starfleet uniforms and their Vulcan ears. When the Enterprise fell out of the sky in flames, there was this collective breath, this little noise of shock and loss. I'll never forget it. There was a kind of unity in the theater; everyone who'd braved the lines that day was a real Trek fan, and we loved that ship, and we mourned it together. Star Trek is about that kind of unity and wholeness, about sharing the things that matter with all the creatures of the universe, no matter how different from you they may be. I get so frustrated with people who try to hack apart even Trek fandom itself by saying, "Well, *we're* the legitimate fans. We're not *dorks,* like *them.*" Dammit, whatever happened to honoring the things we have in common? So anyway. Go ahead and use Trekker if you like; it'll save you a lot of arguing with people, probably. I just regret the fact that some people are so set on making it clear that there are two *kinds* of Trek fans, the good ones (them) and the bad ones (other people). It strikes me as very unTrek. And feel free to call me a Trekkie. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold (yes, we have some male knights. Kerry and Korendil come to mind, and I may be leaving someone out. Sean? Mat? Wintershard? Maybe. Have to go look for my list.) DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 23:53:50 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Don't-miss Musicals Message-ID: <05DEC96.25809141.0029.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> RENT RENT RENT RENT! (The *Swordspoint* of musicals, heheh. BTW, his name was Master Applethorpe.) Definitely, if you're at all into musical theater, you need to hear *Rent.* It's amazing, and the more I listen to it, the more I'm convinced that it's every bit the equal of Les Miz in just about every way (and this from the person who thought *nothing* could equal Les Miz.) I'm also a tremendous fan of *Kiss of the Spider Woman.* Depressing as all heck, but aren't they all these days? There are two versions available, and while I'm still partial to the Chita Rivera version, the Vanessa Williams version is also pretty great, and has more on it, clips of dialogue and stuff. (Though how you can not love Brent as Molina, I just dunno.) I like *Chess* -- the American recording, not the British one. Judy Kuhn and all, you know. You all remember *One Night in Bangkok*? It's from Chess. Though my favorite song will always be *I Know Him So Well*... What else might be new to you? Ah, *Jekyll and Hyde.* Wonderful. But DON'T get the "Highlights" version, with Colm Wilkinson. Yes, I know Colm is wonderful, but this CD only has him and Linda Eder, and the songs aren't the same, and it really just isn't worth it. The REAL version has Anthony Warlowe (who is just a god, an utter god, I can't tell you what a voice this man has, there are no words), and wow, two *different* women playing the two female parts! This permits cool duets like "In His Eyes" and "Girls of the Night." Of course, Anthony's duets with himself are pretty darn great, too. (The things he does with his voice to distinguish Henry from Hyde are amazing.) *Secret Garden* is good, especially if you're a Mandy Patinkin fan. Of course, this is all assuming you've already covered the basics. You know *Jesus Christ, Superstar* right? And *Evita* (the movie soundtrack is officially wonderful, though you can't go wrong with LuPone and Patinkin's version). And *Man of La Mancha* (I like the movie, my she'enedra swears by the Broadway cast). And *Fiddler on the Roof*. And gotten a general handle on Sondheim (get one of the many, many Sondheim collections, Carnegie Hall is good). And *A Chorus Line* (seeing the movie is okay, even if they screwed up "What I Did for Love" by changing it from a song about dancing to a song about romance). That should keep you broke for a while. HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 96 01:05:05 -0500 From: Korendil To: Subject: Re: universe/ bondbirds/ sympathize vs empathize/ inconsistenci Message-ID: <9612060610.AA06134-+AT+-raptor.icubed.net> Myles or Mylee or Romylee or whatever mood she's in said: >Mylee: I felt like a Myles that day. Myles is bubbly, Mylee is more >relaxed, Romylee is sedate *grin* Strange. I think of Myles as being sedate, romylee as relaxed, and mylee as bubbly... > LM was just more powerful, the songs >had more impact.... yeppers! I mean..do you really *cry* when wosshername dies in Ms. Saigon? Now..do you when Eponine or Gavroche does? eh? eh? see?;> >Mylee: Just thought of something. If Prince whatsisface hadn't married >Selenay, there would be no Elspeth, no one would go off and find the >Tayledras, and so on. Uh huh...and if Moondance hadn't told Van about Tallo, so Van didn't run away, then they wouldn't of killed the Drake Queen (heh. I had to resist typing "Borg Queen") and he wouldn't of learned the Hunger and someone else would have had to face down Krebain and without Yfandes being w/ the Hawkbrothers they wouldn't have known, so if Savil stayed behind than wosshername would have prolly, and if she was as desperate as Van had been, she would have died w/o Moondance & Starwind coming in time and then Highjourne would have fallen into the deep dark depths of the mantle and Valdemar wouldn't exist because Leareth would have won and by the time Storms came 'round, there wouldn't have been a culture with the ideas to stop them, and so on and so on... Deniz said: > I really do need >to talk to them about DragonCon. Yes. You do;> >When you say "Pie", do you mean like apple pie? Because if so, I >dissagree. >I pronounce it |Pij'm-+AT+-r|, where the j is the funny bit in onion that doesn't >sound nasal, and the -+AT+- is a schwa. Yeah..Pi as in 1."lots of buggers. Do you know how pissed that gets me?" (1 point to the first to place that paraphrased quote;>), or pie like apple pie, and then a schwa, and then mer. like in mermaid. >I'm not thinking >this idea through completely, but Danya, are there any links between >Arthurian >Legend and Vanyel? Danya ain't here anymore....at least, that's what the people-on-the-list-as-of-last-weekend said... BTW, I just read "Stolen Silver," which pretty much proves that either A: She reused another name, or B: GB companions aren't all the same. Because there's a Companion named Taver. This could be like Keighvin the MO or Medren Jadus' servant, or it could be a MOC reincing as a normal one... -+AT+-LIDNEROK___________/ KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET \_____________KORENDIL-+AT+- I|Korendil, Knight of the Order of Amber & Marigold and Elfhame |I C|Sun-Descending, Squire of the High Court, Envoy to Elfhame |C U|Misthold, Magus Minor, One In Black,Firstborn Child of Danaan,|U B|God of Night and All Things Nocturnal, Champion of the Ladies |B E|of the Pink Wand, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |E D|.NET______________/NAME THE MIME AND DIE!!\_______________TEN.|D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 01:21:51 -0500 From: "Cara S. Smith" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: a braid (even tho I hate them) intro/elspeth/bondbirds Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961206062151.006a4c08-+AT+-ns.gamewood.net> Ok, haven't posted in a while, and missed the whole intro thing during the holiday break, so I figured I'd start off with that. I'm Cara Smith, currently living in Virginia, but moving to New Mexico in a week (YES!!). I'm a constant reader, I read and re-read all the time, if I have 5 spare minutes, there is a book in my hands. Unfortuneately, (or fortuneately, depending) I have no job, so I'm reading quite a bit these days, but that will change soon, as I will be working once I get to New Mexico. My hobbies include reading, computers, writing, and I'm a fan of NASCAR and Duke Basketball. I guess that's about it.. oh.. I'm 24.. will be 25 in two weeks, and I am luckily a female. I say lucky, cause that's how I've lived my entire life and I wouldn't know how to be a male. Now.. on to the Misty! RE: Elspeth < )>> I personally see the differences between the two Elspeths in the Arrows series and in the Winds series come about for two reasons. Firstly, Arrows was told mainly from Talia's point of view. And how people see us, is definitely different from how we see ourselves. Talia can think Elspeth is pretty, and Elspeth can think she's plain. (I would insert text evd here, however I just looked for my books, and cannot find the last two arrow's books, thank goodness I know my used bookstore has copies!!) The second reason is similar to the first. Age. In arrows, Elspeth is around seven and matures to about 15 or so, IIRC. In the Winds, she's still young, but alot more mature. So those could account for some of the personality differences. The third reason, is that Elspeth was a minor character in the Arrows books, and therefore, wasn't developed as deeply as the major characters were. In Winds, she is the focus of the trilogy, and has been developed more, and sometimes when that happens, the developed character is not very similar to the same non-developed character. Re: bondbirds I personally see the relationship between the Companion/Herald bond and the Bondbird/Tayledras bond is similar in nature to the Dragon/rider and Firelizard/human bonds in the Pern books. The Dragon/Rider and Companion/Herald bonds are on a deeper level, that allow a closeness that makes the one depend on the other. (Even though there can be evil dragonriders, and not evil Heralds, the bonds are similar, in my opinion.) The bond between Firelizard/human and bondbird/Tayledras seem to be more of an empathic bond, a surface bond, a choice of sharing of hearts and mind, but not of souls like the Dragon/Rider or Companion/Herald bonds. Well, that's it for tonight, maybe I'll think of something to say before I move. Maybe not.. I may be to busy.. we'll see.. Thank you both for listening! :P ------------------------------------------------------------- Cara Smith nitebird-+AT+-ns.gamewood.net The Tales of Teyle: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5777 Pern Ridges: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2909 Relina's Realm: http://members.tripod.com/~Relina/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 02:35:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Romylee A. Ejercito" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: almost all non-Misty stuff Message-ID: > Kory: Strange. I think of Myles as being sedate, romylee as relaxed, and mylee > as bubbly... We-ell.... Mostly I get called Romylee when I'm in trouble, so I have to be sedate and dignified and quiet. And Myles is what my friends in high school called me, usually when we were having lunch and joking around in the cafeteria, so I think of Myles as bubbly. and I'm Mylee at home where I just kinda laze around. And I guess it depends on where you put the accent in Mylee (it's supposed to be on the "My" and a lot of people seem to do it on the "lee") >Kory: yeppers! I mean..do you really *cry* when wosshername dies in Ms. Saigon? > Now..do you when Eponine or Gavroche does? eh? eh? see?;> Um, I have to confess to a slight bias here. *grin* The first Kim was from my country so I've always wanted to watch it, even if she's not doing it anymore. But yes, the scenes with E and G are much more poignant. >Deniz: I really do need to talk to them about DragonCon. Can anyone give me an estimate of how much it would cost to stay there? I desperately want to go, but I don't know if my mom will let me. She wants me home for summer vacation because I don't see them the whole school year. I would absolutely love to go though, but I prolly need to save up money AND give them a convincing reason as to why I need to stay here till the end of June. HTH, thankyouthankyouthankyou for the list of musicals. Unfortunately, no, I haven't covered the basics yet. I come from the land of no musicals (well, we're getting a few now) and ever since a friend intro'd me to Les Miz, I'd been dying to watch it. Now that I'm here in CT, I finally got the chance to see A musical in Broadway. Like I said, I'm seeing Miss Saigon next week in Hartford. Then I'll save tons of money (yeah right!) so I can gorge on musicals during Spring Break. At the very least, I can get CDs. /me sighs. Between books and CDs and my enormous phone bill (cost almost $2/minute to call home!), I barely have enough money left over to get other stuff. *sigh* When I get rich, I swear I'll watch every musical ever made. Not that you can get rich by being a bio major, but I can always dream, right? Hmmm, no Misty stuff in this one. /me looks depressed. My roomie's bf just came over to pick her up, and he told me he just watched the Trek movie, which I still haven't watched! I _need_ to watch that movie!!! I'm also procrastinating because I have 2 exams on Monday (organic chem and biology), a chem lab exam and Spanish orals tomorrow, plu dance and choir rehearsals this weekend (our concert is next week, on the weekend before my Spanish and chem finals). I've been reading chem, and after an hour of seeing all those carbon things, I start acting like I'm drunk, all talkative and not making any sense at all. /me wanders around with a foolish smile on her face. I cannot do any more orgo. Can't can't can't. WHY did I decide to major in the sciences? English would've been easier, I'm doing better in my non-science classes than I am in my science ones. Of course, if I slept earlier instead of doing mail, I'd prolly stay awake in class. /me sighs again. We're doing this really cool dance where you balance a glass between your pinky and index finger (both hands) and have one on your head, and you sort of waltz around balancing that. And inside the glass is a lit candle. It looks really impressive, esp. if the lights are turned down and the flames make nice little arcs of light as you move your arms around. The other dance we're doing is practically the same thing, but you have wine in the glass instead of a candle, and you sort of get down on your knees and lie on the floor and roll over and get up while balancing those glasses. No, I can't do this yet. *grin* My housemates are kinda looking at me funny coz I walk down the hall with a glass on my head so I can get the hang of it. (also, the hall's the only place in the house that's carpeted, so the glass doesn't break when it inevitably falls). And of course, there's the dance where you step between bamboo poles that sort of click together, so you have to make sure your feet don't get caught in them. It hurts even more if your toe gets caught. So why am I doing all these strange dances anyway? We're having a cultural festival thingie next sem, and we've started practicing, because it's too easy to mess up these dances. Sorry again, no Misty stuff. But I did some in an earlier post, so I'm excused. *grin* Oh, here's one. Skan and Treyvan and Hydona are Master mages. Are there any gryphon Adepts? Can there be gryphon Adepts? And also, in SW, Rris didn't get to go up in the basket with Hydona and Treyvan b/c he didn't have hands, and yet in SB, we have a kyree who's a scholar. I know, um, whatsisname had a hertasi with him, but why couldn't a hertasi have gone with Rris? Or why not have both Karal and Rris go together? Btw, I'm picking out ppl's URLs from the sigs and I'll be linking it from my page as soon as my finals are done. Hope that's okay with people. And I'm prolly going to steal your RL pics from your pages too. If that's not okay w/ some, make yourself known, and I won't. Um, um, what else? Hmm. Nothing I guess, so g'night or g'morning to everyone. Hope you get a nice sunny day. (god, I have no imagination) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mylee Ejercito rejercito-+AT+-wesleyan.edu http://www.dragonfire.net/~kaiserina I have one of the most brilliant minds on earth... BUT EDUCATION RUINED IT!!! - Blue Magic ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:12:14 +0800 From: Lady Windsong To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions/Horses/Companions vs. Bondbirds Message-ID: <2.2.16.19961206161134.3047961a-+AT+-singnet.com.sg> Heyla, y'all! :) This is a very equine oriented post. Some of it's out of date, sorry about that! :) Myles: >Do you think this could be because they're "horses"? I know the Heralds >know they're not, but sometimes, they need to hear if from a fellow human, >maybe because they think their Companions don't really understand, since >they're not human. Am I making any sense? Yes! Actually, you make a *lot* of sense. I think you're right, the Heralds, no matter *what*, _might_ still subconsciously think that Companions are horses. Just that these 'horses' have the ability to speak to them, one way or the other. After all, *they* don't know that Companions are reincarnated Heralds (some of them anyway! ), right? Or maybe, like Elspeth, they just *don't want* to listen to their Companions. If the Companion's advice is not to their liking, that is. I wonder if Selenay *would* have listened to her Companion, whose name escapes me, *if* she had said not to marry what's-his-name in the beginning? And if she would've listened to Talia? If Talia'd been there, I mean. And Mylee, *where* are you from? I meant to ask, but forgot. And also: Tresta said that Companion carry their foals for 9 months to horses' 11 months. I think that's probably so that the Herald won't be away from active field service too long. :) BTW, what you said about horses having souls? I agree. You are *absolutely* right. Any question about whether I love horses? _____________________________________________________________________________ Wintershard said: >IMO, we regard horses living in a herd because >that's what we force them to do in a ranch, or that's what they want to do >normally in nature. But, when we need them, they can live a whole life >time away from a herd. Nope. Wild horses live in herds. That I know. In fact, many herbivores do that, 'cos it's safer in large numbers. Right, Tresta? :) I think that for Companions, their Chosen's company is enough. Another reason is, if they are reincarnated Heralds (can't remember if this is fact, so please bear with me! ) then they would not have a horse's mentality, oui? _____________________________________________________________________________ Myles again: >I wish I could, I really miss my family. I even miss my pesky little >sister. Well, you always have *us*, your family away from home! :) _____________________________________________________________________________ Lani: >ObMisty: With regards to the Elspeth/"the caring heart" discussion, >I though it was apparent from the context that Talia was doing >a direct translation of E's name from the Valdemaran. Of *course*! Gah. I do that all the time, and it never occurred to me. *sigh* I translate stuff from Chinese or French into English pretty often, and it comes out the same way. Silly me! And it drove me crazy when I read it! _____________________________________________________________________________ Jake (I'm glad you're back! ) now: >Companions are more complex creatures than birds (intelligence/personality >wise.. Vree is just a smart bird while Rolan is a highly intelligent >horse^H^H^H^H^HCompanion) so would their emotions, because the emotions are >more refined than the bondbirds? Or are the bondbirds' emotions stronger >because they are of a more ... primal sort? I don't know. I always had the impression that the Companion bond was...I don't know, more *tight*, somehow. Did I phrase that right? So anything the Companion feels, the Herald feels as well. But for the bondbirds, I guess you feel the stronger emotions, like *hunger*, for example, but you have to link, or at least consciously try, with the bird to feel whatever else the bird is feeling. Hmm...or the Companion bond is stronger? I mean, the Tayledras can obviously survive the loss of a bondbird (Darkwind's father, what's-his-name, *Starblade*!), and bond again (Hylarr?), but how about a Companion/Herald? I always thought the Companion bond was like the bond between Dragon and Dragonrider (Pern) or the *lir* bond (Cheysuli). Anyway, my opinion, anyhow! Did it make sense to anyone else but me? :) _____________________________________________________________________________ BTW, those who have put up homepages in the recent past, why don't y'all go to the Mailing List Homepage (Lady Becky, what's the URL?) and put it in? Then we can all go and visit! There's a link off my 'page, at (Shameless Plug goes here.) http://members.tripod.com/~Windsong/index.html_ And finally ('cos I just got the post. ) three cheers for Heather who likes 'I Know Him So Well'! Wintersong and I sing it all the time. :) Walk in Peace always, Lady Windsong. 'Your joy is your sorrow unmasked. And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.' Gibran, _The Prophet_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 13:24:46 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Elspeth - a plaudit Message-ID: <9612061224.AA06576-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Greetings, Elspeth - ok I know we've done her to death in't past, but I never really had a say about it, and each time I read something negative about her, I'd twitch, think about a mail, then forget it. But those twitches were building, so when the feline Mat wrote: > Yeah, I think Misty just has tons of inconsistencies regarding Elspeth. > Mostly in facts about her in Arrows contradicting things about her in > Winds. Like, supposedly, in AFall, her Farsight is much stronger than > most. Yet in Winds, it's only average. Not to mention her complete > personality shift.... I snapped. I don't agree. Pbbbllllttth! In Arrows she began as a spoilt child (not exactly her fault, and a miracle that, given what we later learn of Hulda's abilitiies, she's not worse). She improves, when everyone around her has witnessed her "humiliations", talks about them, and given half a chance reminds her of them. Everytime she feels like indulging in a mood (and heavens doesn't everyone?), she gets people commenting on how the Brat's back. Her hormones kick in when she's in her teens, and she wobbles a bit from the model-daughter-and-heir track she's managed to get onto. She has a teensy rebellion, indulges in a little "Why me?' and "It's not fair". Another scheming adult, someone she trusts, encourages her soemwhat. Then her one mentor totally blows up, refers yet again to the Brat (is she *never* to live down the fact that she was manipulated by a clever adult when she was a wee thing?), says some pretty nasty things, and then, when E flares back, like any self respecting teenager, said mentor flounces off. E apologises, redeems herself fully, and gets back into her model-daughter-and-heir role. >From the brief flash we get of her in BTS, she's together, confident and all grown up. However, by the time of Winds life don't look so hot. She's a woman in her mid twenties (as is generally accepted), treated by her Companion and her mother like someone much younger. Peers will be living lives as independent, contributing adults, maybe raising kids. Heralds she trained with will be returning to Haven as battle-hardened Heralds, riding their own circuits, maybe even taking out trainees. Elspeth on the other hand is stuck in a sort of childish limbo. She has no real function in life, except waiting for her Mamma to cop it. She's coddled and protected, and yet she's trained to assassin levels of warfare. She socialises with people who can screw whomsoever they please, whensoever, while she has to maintain a discrete and virginal front. She appears to have no real friends (Talia? Skif? Kero? - all busy people with their own lives). She is also, although she doesn't know it, developing and living with a major Mage gift. Then escape is dangled in front of her - a chance to do something other than fanny around Haven, being safe. She finds out that she has this stonking great gift and suddenly she's not just the heir. There's maybe something else for her to do. She realises that her escape wasn't due to her own debate and reasoning, rather that she's being prodded to do something she doesn't know about by her patronising cow of a Companion (I do *NOT* like Gwenna). Finally, finally she takes the reins of her life and takes control. Sure she's strong willed, she's nasty to Skif (all she really did was say "No", a touch forcefully maybe). She has a touch of attitude. But she's learning to take full responsibility for herself for the first time - there was always Selenay or Talia or Kero hovering before, saying things like "Is that a good idea dear?". I thought Darkwind was the one overeacting - he showed no consideration for her foreigness, her (known) status in her own lands, the fact that she was coping with an alien culture, language, food, gift, man .... good grief, she was experiecing several major life-stresses, and not falling apart. I think she's one of ML's richer characters - Talia is so, so, so nice she's treacly. Elspeth has depth, we know where she's come from, what she's been through. She's been developed in a major way through the books - you can actually see why she might be the way she is, a bit like we know exactly where Van came from. We have nothing like this amount of insight into any other of ML's people. So, think about it, she ain't that bad - and she was growing up. We all change as we pass from kiddyhood (she's what, 8 in Arrows?) to adulthood, (early 30's by the end of Storm?). Wow, I don't think I've ever written so much! This has gotta be my first non-braid since braids began - but never fear, there's one in the mailing in anothe window - I just took this out of it to be an independent mail in it's own right. Esmeralda - who is about to move house and country, so knows all about major life stresses ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 07:46:10 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: webpages, Re:bondbirds Message-ID: <199612061246.HAA08021-+AT+-nemesis.idirect.com> At 12:28 AM 12/6/96 GMT, you wrote: >I Have a webpage and i would like to link everybody's pages to mine. If you would private email me at >rtg1-+AT+-ra.msstate.edu with your page address and a line or two about it(as you want it to be seen on my page), i >will put them on my page. If you want to see my page before you let me link it, them go to >www.geocities.com/area51/1740. Thanks. > >Wintershard wrote: >"Jake inquired: >>>Do broody bondbirds make for broody bondmates? How about when that bird >>has been in all night and NEEDS to flap?? And what would happen when your >>bondbird begins drooling over a nice, fat, tasty mouse?<< > >>Two thoughts (mental limit or blown fuse ;) : >>1. Bondbirds are smaller than Companions, so maybe the emotion that they >> impress upon their bondeds is less than that upon a Chosen. >>2. How deep does a bond with a bird go? And what type of bond is it? It >> may be that, unlike Chosen, the bondeds only ~sense~ the feelings/words >> of their birds, whereas Chosen actually ~feel~ it." I always figured that Bondbirds didn't have near the emotions of the full bond of a companion. Most of the bond birds didn't show anything but simple thoughts. Firesong and Aya I would say are a special case since Aya is a firebird and when they get agitated they use that force and they flame. > >I thought that bondbirds and their bondmates have almost, but not quite the same bond as chosen and their >companions. In one the Storms books, Firesong's firebird was really affected by his mood. He was >shedding(correct me if I used the wrong word) and he was really agitated. This was all due to the problems he >was having with An'desha. Sorry i don't have the book with me. I do know the part you are talking about but Firebirds when they are frightened and Firesongs feelings and mood would have been put into his physical being. > >And on another note. >1. Do the bondbirds get raised from hatching(after they are taught to fly by their parents) by their bondmates, >or are they just given to the bondmates when they are mature? They are raised by there parents. The reason is that most bondbirds aren't bonded until later when the Tale'edras go looking for a bird who has extroadinary abilities. > >2. Can a Herald, with te'yladras blood(sorry i butchered the name :)), be bonded with a bondbird? I think they could have. Firesong remember has the blood of the Valdemaran Vanyel in him so that would probably mean that Elspeth if she wasn't bonded to Gwena may have taken one. I do believe they can although there is no proof of this. > > >Belrex, chosen of the new god Eriond >aka >Herald-trainee Rex Aigle >(smile, it confuses the hell out of people) > Aistes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:40:17 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tayledras Message-ID: <199612061340.IAA19026-+AT+-nemesis.idirect.com> At 03:39 AM 12/6/96 GMT, you wrote: >Would anyone have the complete listing of the Tayledras launge(sp) on >hand? If so could you please send me a copy.. > >Thanks > I have never seen anything like that. I do have a copy with a lot of Shin'a'in Words. It is at the end of the last book of Vows and Honour(OathBreakers). Other then that I have yet to see any other langauge guides in any if her books. Aistes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:47:01 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: universe/ bondbirds/ sympathize vs empathize/ Message-ID: <199612061347.IAA20671-+AT+-nemesis.idirect.com> >~~Re: bondbirds~~ > >>Jake: "How to the emotions bondbirds impress on their bondmates Compare >to >the emotions Companions send to their Chosen? > >Mylee: I'd always assumed that the Companion-Chosen bond was a full >telepathic link (kind of like the Pern dragons) and that the bondbirds had >a >weaker bond. I think LHM said that Heralds seldom outlive their >Companions, >and vice versa, and in MW, it said that killing a bondbird would also hurt >the >Tayledras, but it didn't say anything about them dying. The little owls >the >mages keep don't live that long (compared to the hawks and eagles and the >Companions) so when they die, the Tayledras would get a new one. So since >the bond is weaker, the impressed emotions wouldn't be as strong. > > Oh wait, I just remembered something about Dawnfire losing herself >in her >hawk's fury when the gryphons got attacked. Hmm. The reason why she felt herself losing control of Kyrr is because they were in a complete telepathic link. She was fully bonded, she was in trance. The reason why she died it said something like that if you full bond to your bird and the bird dies then the human will also die. Aistes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:05:50 -0500 From: Bruce Hunt To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tayledras Message-ID: <32A8283E.551B-+AT+-icom.ca> Chris & Sean Talbot wrote: > I have never seen anything like that. I do have a copy with a lot of > Shin'a'in Words. It is at the end of the last book of Vows and > Honour(OathBreakers). Which I also have and the two langauges are not far apart either since both are cousins. There are a few that I've seen in the Magic series and the Winds, Storm but not enough to bring it all together. > Other then that I have yet to see any other langauge guides in any if >her books. Would be nice to see one ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 16:14:55 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: caring heart/space/Valdemar/Shin'a'in-Tayledras wordlist Message-ID: <9612061514.AA06776-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> hola, I go with Tresta on the caring heart bit - > But there is a scene at the end of Magic's Pawn, when Van wakes up > .... Savil tells him he is a Herald already; that > "what makes a Herald is the heart; a caring heart that cares for others > before itself." The quote marks in Arrows have always bothered me - I recall trawling through the songs at the back of the books to try and find it. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kaatje wrote: > The way the space program has been cut (both in the US and elsewhere) > is alarming. Well, yes - but where is the money to come from? The demands on a country's funds for welfare, education, health care, security, arts, charitable funding (can't think of the word - overseas development - that sorta stuff), are endless. Yes we could spend less on war, but the boys must have their toys. Space research is expensive - trust me I know. I work for the European Space Agency - continually short of cash and soaking up vast sums of money. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Wintershard wrote in reply to Kaatje: Kaatje wrote: >> And in Valdemar, since it's basically landlocked, they probably wouldn't >> need astronavigation. > > Which made me think of something else. Are there any continents in > Velgarth other than the one containing Valdemar, the Empire, etc.? Dunno 'bout Valdemar, but I liked the way McCaffrey joined her Ships world to the Crystal singer one. ML has never talked of oceans, has she? Mind you, why should we assume an Earth type world, more water than land - her world has seasons - at least up in Valdemar, and is pretty temperate, altho' the winters up with Darkwind and Co. are hard. We know there's deserts and hot places, but what about tropical climates? Arctic? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mat wrote appropos McCaffrey's Piemur:: > but I found a pronouncuation in one of the books. It's PIE-mer. > Ick. I like mine *much* better. Well, to add my tuppenceworth, I "read" - wait for this, it's awful - Pee-ay-mur - Gawd knows why - it's what my brain latched onto years (and I mean years) ago when I first read Dragonsong/singer, and I've never bothered to review it. Mind you, McC's names don't exactly trip off the tongue do they - T'gellan, Rannartly (or some such), F'lessan) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Summersong wrote, regarding space exploration: > We need to look elsewhere for places to live and resources, Do you really think we'll find somewhere like enough to Earth for humans to live on that won't already be populated? And given mankind's ability for xenophobia, it doesn't seem to me that it's likely to be peaceful. "Hi, we'd like to colonise you land with thousands of agressive, intolerant, racist humans". Hmm, shades of the aborigines, the mayans, the native indians, ...... Andre Norton's The Beast Master touches on this, in a fairly sanitised way. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ok, there seems to be some noise about Shin'a'in - Tayledras words - I have the list Gyrfalcon posted back in March, he said: "Note - This is a collection of the words used throughout the Velgarth series - From the original Sword and Sorceress 3 through the current latest, Storm Rising. If I have missed any that you can see, please let me know." If you'd like a copy, mail me at dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl It's Friiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiday EE happy hamster hopping her way to the car park, have a good weekend, Esmeralda (no proof reading today - excuses for any typos/glitches) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:40:58 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: Mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Wizard books (NT admin)/musicals/Elspeth Message-ID: <9612061843.AA02451-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> _I_ liked the title The Cats of Grand Central (fits in nicely with the worldgate in Grand Central station and all that). The new title made me very confused, cause it looked like the excerpt changed to a translation of the Bright Book/The Naming of Lights/The Book of Night With Moon. Also, there is supposedly going to be more about Carl (he of the temporospatial claudications) so I thought the first title was better. YMMV. I said: >I just tried to check, and the admin sayeth that Navigator locks up >NT 3.51 and so they have taketh it away. Oh well. And Lani answered: >Actually, I'm writing this on a machine using NT3.51 and Navigator >3.0, and have ~never~ had Navigator lock up NT3.51, so don't let them >pass you that bit of mis-information and get away with it...(Have >been using this particular system for the past year, and it's been >beautifully stable ever since I got NT3.51 put on it about 6 months >ago). The problem with the lockup could very well be in the gateway >or router machine, especially if they have differing versions of >software running... That would be all well and good if the NT 3.51 workstations ran Navigator 3.0, but they don't. They ran Navigator 2.01, and weren't upgraded. I'm pretty friendly with one of the system administrators, and Navigator was giving him headaches for a while... I'm assuming that the problem was our particular mess of software and hardware. This isn't a big deal cause they're changing everything over to NT 4.0 (complete with insane video driver potential problems) and IE 3.0. This makes me happy cause now I don't have to worry about them making me use Navigator (Microsoft is bad, but crashes every 24 hours are worse). Onto more amusing topics! Musicals. Mostly what HTH said, cause everything on her list is one of my faves or on the list of most wanted musicals. I can think of a coupla basics that she missed tho. West Side Story but DO NOT WATCH THE MOVIE OR GET THE MOVIE RECORDING! It is best in the Original Cast version (the accents for the movie sound Italian, and Hershey is mostly Italian). If you watch/listen to Jesus Christ Superstar, also watch/listen to Godspell. Especially if you're a Christian. You will spend a lot of time thinking about your faith and the two shows are almost designed to give no easy answers. If you can find them, you also want _A Little Night Music_, _Into the Woods_, and _Sweeny Todd_. Sweeny Todd gets rather graphic, bloody, grisly, gory and disgusting but the music is incredible and the lyrics are impressive. You also need to get a basic appreciation of Rogers and Hammerstein (I hate them, but if I didn't know them I wouldn't love Sondheim, Webber and the Les Mis team). Oh, and for everyone who is bashing Miss Saigon, take a look at the source material and _then_ bash it. Rent a video of Madame Butterfly with subtitles and then see what you think of Miss Saigon. I found that it made Miss Saigon seem a lot better because the source was... rather wretched IMO. Now to get on topic. Elspeth. What Esme said . Elspeth maybe didn't have it quite as bad as Vanyel did in the begining, but at least people eventually gave Van a chance. Even Elspeth's _Companion_ (that wasn't no Companion mutter mutter...) never cut her the slightest break. At age 18, she "graduates" to full Herald and is _still_ stuck in Haven, running the city courts (when even her mamma got to go OUT on circut during the Tedrel Wars). And at the age of what, 25-7, she is still stuck in Haven, never trusted, never allowed to even get slightly out of temper, and people call her awful. Personally, I would've been a _lot_ worse. By my standards, Elspeth is only a little stubborn, and she was just a little tempermental compared to my sister (remember, we're seeing Elspeth under stress, and even Stephie admits she can be like that for weeks and weeks on end). Cut the woman a break, think about her life and see how well _you_ would do with it. Sorry about the ranting, but think about it please. Emily the invisible ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:44:21 -0500 (EST) From: Wintershard To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Companions/Bondbirds/Gryphons/Webpage Message-ID: Tresta wrote: <<[snipping lovely explanations] they are more "human" in that they prefer to be with other Companions, but they will not go mad if they cannot be for a time.<< Are you sure? It seems to me that a person (defined now as sentient being) needs another of its kind at some point or another. Whether that kind be species, intelligence, fellings, you name it. For example, I'm sure that with his emotion chip, Data now feels lonely at being the only android in existence (which reminds me, whatever happened to the two worlds of robots in the original series?). He yearns for another of his kind. Now, I haven't seen FC yet (plan to soon, though), so I'm not totally sure. But take what someone said about Van in MPromise. Sure, 'Fandes was good company, but Van needed something human, and later we know he needs someone who's shaych as well. But what about 'Fandes? I'm sure she needed the comfort/thoughts of another Companion just as much. And how 'bout how Rolan reacts w/ Skif's Companion (forgot her name) after being in the cabin for so long. Sure, he's the GB stallion and all, but still. I think that they're just good at hiding their own frustrations of being apart from others for so long. What would have happened if they were there for another month? two? four? I'm sure they'd lose that handle just as much as their Chosen. And not just from the lack of mobility, but the lack of others' presence. --------------------------------------- Belrex wrote: >>In one the Storms books, Firesong's firebird was really affected by his mood.<< But that would be from the bonded to the bird. What about from the bird to the bonded? Would a larger source of emotion affect that of a smaller one by the same amount? I'm not sure. then Lady Windsong wrote: >> But for the bondbirds, I guess you feel the stronger emotions, like *hunger*, for example, but you have to link, or at least consciously try, with the bird to feel whatever else the bird is feeling.<< That's right. When Van first went to the Vale (IIRC), Moondance, Starwind, and Savil were talking up in Moon's room in the tree, something like: Suddenly, Moon' started, and ran to the window, opening it. In flew both his bondbird and Star's, alighting on his outstretched arms. As Star's went to him, Moon seemed to look deep into his own bird's eyes. Then, he recalled to Savil what the bird had Said. Now, this seems to me like the first impression that Moon gets is something akin to :danger: or :haste: etc., so he goes and opens the window to let them in. Then, when he looks into his eyes, he creates the link that allows him to fully understand the whole message. If he already had the full link, he would only have started, and told Savil what the bird had relayed, and not opening the window at all. Plus, the bird would have followed Van (I think that's what it was for) first and foremost, and told Moon where Van was. --------------------------------------- Mylee wrote: >>This doesn't seem consistent with how gryphons are though, b/c they seemed like monsters in Arrows and they're not. Or could it be because someone saw a gryphon and the story was exagerrated as it got passed on?<< I don't think so. Wasn't Iftel the super-secret country where whoever went in didn't come out? Acknowledging I haven't read very far, I would assume that Iftel created a sort of military unit of gryphons, and used them plus human units to enforce that secrecy, thus the aggressiveness. --------------------------------------- Deniz scribed: >>[Wintershard, I love your webpage!]<< Thank you! I guess it's my turn for the Shameless Plug act, so, if you'd like to read a good short short story, drop by. If not...well, do it anyways ;->. BTW, whenever I can get around to it, I'll be doing a page of links to friends. If y'all could mail me you addresses, I'll put you on there. -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -= Wintershard |Demon of Subtlety, Discreetness, and wintershard-+AT+-geocities.com | Crappy Weather http://www.geocities.com/Area51/6620 |'Sure I've cracked. But that's 'He who laughs last thinks slowest' | where the light shines through.' -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -= ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1005 **********************************