MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1048 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) FIRST CONTACT! by DAVID MAGINNIS 2) Hello again! by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> 3) I'm ba-a-ck /Companion substitutes by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 4) Re: Elspeth by Empress100-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Companions/heralds by Renee Boykin 6) Re: tortoises/poetry/welcome/Elspeth/tables by Renee Boykin 7) Re: The poem by Renee Boykin 8) Re: I'm ba-a-ck /Companion substitutes by Renee Boykin 9) Re: Elspeth by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 10) Souls/Rimes/PA vs TP/"never" by Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com 11) re:Heather's post/heralds/elspeth by 12) Roald ?= Roald/ Mailing list messages/ SoI/ SoI Spoiler/ Heralds by "Romylee A. Ejercito" 13) My last(first) post by "Myka S." 14) pure fluff post - will get Misty post tomorrow really youwill by mishi 15) Elspeth/Heralds by "Emily L Cartier" 16) Re: Elspeth by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 17) I'm sorry, so sorry by Rose 18) Re: pure fluff post - will get Misty post tomorrow really youwill by DAVID MAGINNIS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:55:04 +0000 From: DAVID MAGINNIS To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: FIRST CONTACT! Message-ID: <32D3DF78.4841-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk> Hi everyone, After seeing all your messages about Star Trek: First Contact,I decided to go see what all the fuss was about.Well-WOW!!! Great film,well directed,superb special effects AND I had the cinema to myself! ,In all but name a Private screening!. David ( uk ) P.S. And no Sheep! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 09:57:15 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hello again! Message-ID: Geez, I turn my back on y'all for three weeks and twenty new people pop out of the woodwork! Was I scaring people away? ;) Well, hello and a ((((hug))) to all the newbies or lurkers who came out of hiding: Shadow Wolf & Danyel & Kathy & Mark & Khrysa & Sera & Gene & Bevie, mistress of actual Sheep (heh heh) & Susan & Liseth & Kris & S'Hawk & Lydia & Tina & Elven & Icesong & Peony & Morgause & Jayenna & Lythande & Mykalanthis (& Seanna? or am I getting senile?)! (Yes, I've been archive-diving to see what I missed.) If I left out anybody or (what with all the shilly-shallying about names) listed somebody twice, I'm Really Very Sorry and here's another (((hug)))). Heck, here's another ((((hug)))) for everybody! (Guess who's feeling refreshed after she's had three weeks to put the Perfectly Awful fall semester behind her?) Well, I had a nice vacation, mostly laying about reading and watching movies, though I did get to spend some time with a few friends from elementary school. I went spelunking in the darkest abyss of the garage and found the Fionavar Tapestry...I cried about every 150-200 pages, all the way through the trilogy, and in the single-combat scene that precedes the Obligatory Impressively Apocalyptic Battle That Never Decides The Actual Outcome Of The Story(tm), I started sobbing and made all the throw pillows soggy. I've never cried so much over a story in my life... I got lots of books, as presents or with Xmas gift money: _The Art of War_ (Sun Tzu), _Descartes' Error_, _Tigana_ (GGKay), _Lady Cottington's Pressed Fairy Book_ (hee hee hee), Wossname's _Voices of Hope_ (grr, I found the ending less satisfying than the end of the previous book in the saga), three of the _Catfantastic_ anthologies (now I have "Tale of Two Skitties" and "Scat"), _Best of MZB's Fantasy Magazine II_ (the one with "Satanic, Versus"), and three of Datlow & Windling's _Year's Best Fantasy & Horror_ anthologies (bringing my total of that series up to four). I noticed that three of my _Year's Best_, the 5th, 7th, and 9th ones, all have Ellen Kushner stories. My fellow _Swordspoint_ fans might want to know that the 5th (from 1991) has "The Swordsman Whose Name Was Not Death", featuring Richard & Alec; the 7th (1993) has "Playing With Fire", another Riverside story; and the 9th (1995) has "The Hunt of the Unicorn" which features a rose-loving Thomas Berowne rather like the rose-loving Thomas Berowne in _Swordspoint_. "The Hunt" first appeared in _Immortal Unicorn_, an anthology edited by Peter Beagle that I heartily recommend to all (rest assured that none of the stories get disgustingly sweet). If anyone else has read "The Hunt", I'd like to know if they can confirm my suspicion that the Queen mentioned in the story is an alternate history version of Queen Elizabeth--or, if I'm wrong, how the story fits into (alternate?) European history. Oh yeah, and I got SoI, too. the Eternally Nourished Lee -97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu-Knight of the OAM- www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/-Spreader of Humor-Self Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"-"I collected my thoughts. Someday I hope to have them all." (Vlad Taltos) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jan 97 19:06:43 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I'm ba-a-ck /Companion substitutes Message-ID: <9701081806.AA01741-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Greetings - I return from a fun filled fortnight of packing cases, cleaning, searching, endless "What have you done with ..." and "Well why the hell did you put it *there*" - but, as one does, we have survived the move. Hubby is now ensconced (sp??) back in London, me in new flat in The Hague, house sold, money banked, stress levels settling! Now there's just me to move back in March, and an elderly 8 metre sailing boat to get across the English Channel. Anyhow, nuff' said. What she wrote (her - y'know, the lippy one (oh grief, that's not rude in American is it??)) I think I have a response. It's waaay down at gut level, so let's see what I can throw up (if you'll excuse the expression!). ....... Well I did write a long and reasoned response to our Hev, but my -+AT+-#$%$&* mailer has just decided to delete everything except "This I agree with, " Heigh hoh, such is life. Maybe I'll explain why tomorrow. *^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~*^~ The Git he were a'sayin' > OBMisty: **If** Valdemar becomes a tecno society as hinted at in the > Storms books (steam engines and such) will companions change form? IIRC, > they are just horse because it's a usefull shape to take for travel/combat > and such. So if it's no longer so usefull will they take another form? Oh yes yes yes! I remember we played around with this a year or so back - I went for a very large, white leather and chrome motor cycle, the Heralds wearing white leathers (of course), white helmets with mirrored visors - or maybe just shades. Just picture Van slowly pulling off his helmet and shaking loose that hair, lowing the shades down his nose and fixing you with those eyes .... yep, I like it just as much now as I did a year back! Oh and welcome back Shadow Lover - if nothing else I've missed the purple prose and your twinkling, amused eyes - or was that Jag? kay - this was longer - that'll teach me to hit the delete key without a second glance .... dooie, Esmeralda (and just for Shadow-Lover .....) ***************************************************************************** * No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got * * there first, and is waiting for it. (Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man) * ***************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 13:37:59 -0500 (EST) From: Empress100-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <970108132932_1957630293-+AT+-emout12.mail.aol.com> I feel like I have to write and defend Elspeth. I think that we need to step back from the Herald issue and look at Elspeth as a person. All her life she was used for one purpose or another. First as a child her nanny, sorry the name is escaping me, was using her. I must admitt I put the blame on this squarly on Seleany's shoulders. Elspeth was her child and what was her answer? Lets get a new MO that can handle the problem. I realize as Monarch she has a lot of responsiblities, but come on! Then she is forced into a postion as Heir that she doesn't want, and is forced to behave in the ways that council expects because the treachery of her father. She is not treated as a normal Herald because she is Heir, remember how she was not allowed to go on circuit? Then we have to companions, after a life of being herded in all these different directions the companions as whole start playing with her like some demented puppetmaster. I happen to think that the problem between the companions and Elspeth is that there was no honesty. Elspeth knew that Gwena was not telling her the whole story. I think that perhaps had the companions been honest with Elspeth from the beginning and discussed it with her she would have gone along with the Plan. However, the companions, well-meaning or not, took it opon themselves to plot out her life without even a by your leave. As for people who think that Elspeth is to bratty or selfish lets look at the facts. She has spent her entire life in the palace compond where everyone except the Heralds, the minority of people there, treat her as one step above them. This will have an effect on a child. As for Elspeth not being as willing to be ruled by the needs of Valdemar the answer is simple. She didn't even know what Valdemar was. She had never rode circuit, it probably fair to say she had never been anywhere under anything but the pretenses of Heir and people wouldn't act the same then. She was never really given the chance to have any ownership in Valdemar so of course she is not going to as willing to give up for it. I am done ranting and raving, I know that it could have been better spoken but that is how I feel. Zhai'helleva, David Empress100-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 15:37:17 -0500 From: Renee Boykin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions/heralds Message-ID: <32C584FD.8E0-+AT+-nightshade.ml.org> Rozanna J. McNeer wrote: > TINAF! just a little bit of teasing ahead! > > AAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! not the Sayvil/Savil thread again!!!!!! It's > like Jaws! > The damn thing keeps coming back again and again and again and again > *giggle* (theme music for Jaws here) dun-uh ... dun-uh ... Dun-dun-Dun- > dun dun-da! the is sayvil savil thread causes yet another long > time standing member of the list to go screaming over the edge of sanity > AAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > okay, sorry, couldn't resist, don't take it personally!!! Yes Sayvil is > Savil; > there is even a list somewhere about which Companions are reincarnated > Heralds. There's been discussion about Rolan being Roald (who better to > be the MO's Companion than a former M?). So print this out and show > it to the SO (elven, I *hope/think/pretty sure* you figured the > sayvil/savil > thing out already! ) > > personal anecdote (tithe to Dvdi teh Git o Tipotys): I asked if anyone > else had noticed that the star-eyed's "k" something name (Kalanel???) > seemed ~awfully~ close to the name of Vkandis' consort, which we > find out in SRising. And nearly everyone sighed with a touch of > exasperation > and said 'yes, deary, we noticed.' > > I think it's a prerequisite to do or ask one dumb thing at least once on > this list > (or you can be like me and do one dumb thing every other post or so!) > > stroll down memory lane: who else remembers doing something really > dumb on this list? (and isn't embarrassed to share) > > /-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/ > Firemist rozanm-+AT+-juno.com > Lore-Mistress of the Cat People > Goddess of Made From Scratch Foods Hahahaha...hey, I'm sorry! ;P I'm new to the list...I've only been on it for like a week! (I shoulda known you guys already figured that one! I'll tell my poor disappointed SO!) =) Not dumb, just innocent! }=D Elven is far from dumb I'll get you, don't worry...};P Elven ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 15:40:21 -0500 From: Renee Boykin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: tortoises/poetry/welcome/Elspeth/tables Message-ID: <32C585B5.5B5E-+AT+-nightshade.ml.org> Liseth-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Elven, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your poem. Is that > original? Very original..I'm a poet. =) Thanks, I was hoping someone would enjoy it ;) Elven ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 15:57:47 -0500 From: Renee Boykin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The poem Message-ID: <32C589CB.3330-+AT+-nightshade.ml.org> Hth. wrote: > > One thing I meant to mention and forgot: thank you, Elven, for that > poem. I found it touching, especially in light of the fact that it > sort of deals with an issue I've been chewing around on for weeks now, > this whole issue of sacrifice and Heralds. > Anyway, Elven's poem brought all this to mind, this issue of what a > Herald is called upon to sacrifice by virtue of being a Herald, and > whether or not it's too heavy a price to pay. Thanks for sharing that > with us. You're welcome. ;) I was glad to share it. I have long been wondering if the Heralds sacrifice too much, when many are never even aware of what went on, though it may have SAVED their WORLD or their entire village...oh, no. They expect the Heralds to die for them and seem to think nothing of it. > I'm sure many of you will disagree, probably strongly, with what I'm > saying here. Not I. > I feel a bit guilty, since I know some of you care about Heralds and > Companions on a deep, personal level, just as I do about Vanyel, and I > know this kind of thing can be upsetting. Not for those who care about Van, tho. ;) It does trouble one, but there it is. Imean Iapprove of the Heralds and Companions, but I also think you've got a major point about emotional blackmail being involved and about the "you'll end up like 'Lendel" threats. > But these sundry questions and ideas have become more and more > important to me lately, as I'm realizing that I'm working with the > same themes in my own novel, and trying to figure out just how I want > to handle them, what I want to say to my own readers. This is a major > philosophical thing here, and I don't want to write about it until I'm > sure of where I stand. You all usually provide a great deal of > breadth and spice to my thinking, and I'm looking forward to us all > putting our heads together and trying to shed some light on what are, > after all, some basic underlying concepts in Misty's writing. Amen! :) I've written a few myself. Elven ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 16:25:46 -0500 From: Renee Boykin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm ba-a-ck /Companion substitutes Message-ID: <32C5905A.5522-+AT+-nightshade.ml.org> dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > Oh yes yes yes! I remember we played around with this a year or so > back - I went for a very large, white leather and chrome motor cycle, > the Heralds wearing white leathers (of course), white helmets with > mirrored visors - or maybe just shades. Just picture Van slowly > pulling off his helmet and shaking loose that hair, lowing the shades > down his nose and fixing you with those eyes .... yep, I like it just > as much nowas I did a year back! Oh my GOD! That thought amuses me SO much, but in a giddy way! I LOVE IT! (Elven thinks Esmeralda ought to petition ML and write some short Van stories!!!!!!!) Just for the imagery, I'd ask you! He'd cause traffic accidents wherever he went! Elven! (dying on the floor in fits of laughter!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:16:58 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <199701082014.AA268324496-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> >I feel like I have to write and defend Elspeth. Me, too, although I don't totally disagree with Heather's post. She was a bit bitchy for me at times, and the way she treated Skif on the road was not the best (or nicest) means of doing so. I'm not saying she has to be perfect, but sometimes tact is not her strongest asset. But, in one way or another, she was never given much control over her own life--because she was the heir, she was always forced to act a certain way (as Darkwind points out in WoChange). What made me feel for her was that she had no place to go that was hers. In WoFate, she tries to hide out in the pottery shed, but she gets attacked there, too. Oh yeah, constant ambushing by Kero and Skif would be enough to drive me insane. I can see why she rebelled, but I think somewhere deep down she had the interests of the 'greater good' at heart. She sought out the Hawkbrothers to break away from the Companion's set path for her, but she also did so because they taught Vanyel and she thought they could help her. I admit that was a convenient excuse for her, and she was darned lucky everything worked out as well as it did. To make a long story short (too late!), I don't see Elspeth as a selfish person who's only a Herald because she's the heir. While she was with the Hawkbrothers, she does her share and even comes to see that the Heralds as a whole are pampered (WoFury, don't know the page #). Her 'royal attitude' still needs working on, but I think she makes a pretty good Herald. Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:00:34 -0500 (EST) From: Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Souls/Rimes/PA vs TP/"never" Message-ID: <970108142245_1325157961-+AT+-emout03.mail.aol.com> Several folks have mentioned the sex of the soul question. I don't think that souls have gender. If the soul is genderless, then sexual preference is a by product of incarnation and not part of the soul's identity. Souls aren't feminine, masculine or both. They just are. Gender based traits are interpreted by society's current view of masculinity or femininty. For instance, several centuries ago men wore as much make-up and jewelry as women do now. Ever looked at a portrait of Louis XIV? Sexual preference is something else again. I've no idea what determines it; but it has to be along the same lines as what physical traits make a person attractive to us.. You know blue eyes as opposed to green. Sex is a function of biology, so why shouldn't it control preferences as well. Or the soul in conjucntion with the body may decide such things. Who knows? ******* Summersong wrote: >>LeAnn Rimes is the best thing out of the country music industry since Reba McEntire!!!!!<< Is LeAnn Rimes the young star--16 or 14?--with the Patsy Cline voice? I don't listen to much modern country(overdone maudlin trash!--give me the classic stuff like E. Tubb or Hank Wms any day!), but if Rimes is who I think she is, she's terrific. ******* On the Piers Anthony vs Terry Pratchett topic: liha'irden(? or is it nomorehappyface) hit the nail on the head. The main difference is the type of humor. Personally I think Anthony's stuff is overwrought but his Sci/Fi is excellent. As to the Incarnations series, I read the first one but was highly disappointed when the second one turned out to be a rehash of the first book from a different point of view. ICK!!! My thought was--oh, not this Satan trash again. I put the book down and refuse to read anything else by Anthony. Pratchett is a marvelous mixture of humor and sarcasm. He can slip things by you that will suddenly come back and hit you from behind. (Like my husband not realizing that _Lords and Ladies_ was a spoof on a _Midsummer Night's Dream_ ). He's very good at mixing and matching classical plots. You have to know things to get some of his jokes. Last time I was there the L-Space web had a section devoted to obscure references in Pratchett's works. The man is good! ******* David Tiffany reminded us: >>As somebody has probably already posted there is extant an interview with Misty in which she says she ain't never gonna write 'bout that. Nor Sun and Shadow either.<< You know, I hope somebody told her that "never" is a very dangerous word. Saying almost practically guarentees that at some point it'll make a liar out of you. Still, if she doesn't want to write it, who am I to argue. Fans pushed McCaffrey into ruining Pern with AtWoP. I waited and waited for that book and was heartily disappointed. ******* Sorry for the old topics and the lack of Misty commentary. I just can't resist putting my 2 cents worth in. A late Happy New Year to everyone! Glithoniel Goddess of Tardiness LoPW Mistress of Willowhawk, in exile. "His subconcious had to be finding _something_ deeply significant in a randy blue -- _blue?!_ --mythological beast that made lewd comments about his wife and sang dirty ditties." --Darryl encounters Birkwelch. _Minerva Wakes_ (Holly Lisle) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:13:48 -0500 (EST) From: To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re:Heather's post/heralds/elspeth Message-ID: <9701081613.aa05390-+AT+-supreme.crt.state.vt.us> Hello all, I'm usually a lurker, but Heather's post was really thought-provoking, so I'm going to break with tradition and respond. By the way, hello to all the newbies - I hope you enjoy it here. Hth said: >>I've come more and more to disagree with the idea of running a country by the Herald system, for many reasons. In a nutshell, I think it's justtoo much to ask. I'm not comfortable with a society that thrives because the best and brightest individuals are recruited to give up their freedom and their lives for the good of the state. I think there are probably psychological problems stemming from taking adolescents, removing them from their homes, and inculcating them with the idea that their own needs should be the least important thing in their lives; self-esteem issues, anyone?<< The funny thing about this is that, in misty-land, these sorts of problems don't happen -- although it seems entirely plausible that they would. The heralds that we get to know were much better off training as Heralds -- ie Talia, Skif, Vanyel. Getting chosen *fixes* their self-esteem problems, and removing them from their old lives is the best thing that ever happens to them. It's a new solution to the problem of troubled youth -- give the kid a spirit guide in the shape of a horse and a lot of responsibility, and not only will everything turn out ok, but they'll be the perfect people to run the country. Seriously, what I'm saying is that although your criticism may be on target in theory, it doesn't really apply in Valdemar as we know it. Actually, though, what I found interesting about your post is that your problem with the herald system is the opposite of my problem with it. The choosing and training of Heralds doesn't really bother me, at least in Valdemar, because the sacrifices are balanced by so many privileges. You may have less of a family life, but you have a family of fellow Heralds -- the kind of community many people dream of and few realize -- and a companion. You have more responsibility, but you also have many liberties --greater tolerance, better education, more chance to travel and meet a wide range of people. The loss of freedom doesn't seem like a real concern to me, if you believe that the Companions know what they're doing when they choose young people. Do you think if a herald was given a chance to change the past -- to not be chosen -- that he or she would want to make that change? I think you've said before that you wouldn't want to be chosen -- but for that very reason, you probably wouldn't be. And yes, kids are young and vulnerable when they're chosen and not really able to make a "free" choice -- but much of what makes us who we are and determines the path of our lives comes of out of our childhood, decisions that other people made for us or events beyond anyone's control. That's just part of life. What really bothers me is not the Heralds but the rest of society. I think that over the long-term, Heralds may prevent the society from changing and evolving. You have, on the one hand, a society that still has quite a bit of inequality and discrimination. Superimposed on that society is a near-perfect ruling system, with spiritual oversight, carried out by people who have a very different, more progressive set of values, but will rarely impose those values on the rest of society. We see this great world where no one treats "our" characters differently because they're female, or shaych, or whatever -- but it's also clear that most of the society isn't like that. How does that change? The system neither encourages nor accomodates pressure for social change, and there's very little role for political participation. What happens if the Holderkin women start demanding their rights -- what do the Heralds do? What if tenant farmers revolt against a lord -- not because he's particularly evil but just because they want to change the economic system? Who do the Heralds support? And, the craziest idea of all, what if the people in some part of Valdemar would like to *elect* a representative to the council? Maybe they'd just like a little voice in their own government -- but how can they really complain, with these perfect self-sacrificing, incorruptible heralds and herald-queen? It seems to me that the herald system will dilute any pressure for broader social change. Also, as a general matter, I think broad political participation is a good thing for communities, and the existence of the Heralds discourages that kind of participation. Hth also said: >> My problem with Elspeth is that I think she tried to play both sides against the middle, to have all the privileges of being a Herald without the responsibilities. And wanting all the good out of life without being willing to shoulder the bad is generally considered rather juvenile, at least.<< I'm not sure I agree with this, though I'll have to think more about. (Part of the problem is "which Elspeth" -- she changes so much through the trilogies.) My gut reaction is that the criticism is not entirely fair. I gather, from what you said, that you would not have disapproved had Elspeth simply walked out on the whole life -- rejected being chosen, being Heir, and gone on to do her own thing. But I just don't think that was a choice for her. It would have been irresponsible and possible destructive to Valdemar as a whole. The country is in a crisis and the Heir just says "forget you all, I have my own life to lead"? No, I think she was stuck, and trying to make the best of it. I don't think she was unwilling to make sacrifices, she was just unwilling to follow along blindly to some planned destiny. And I think she might have been on to something -- maybe it's better to be an active participant in shaping the future, instead of just doing what you're told. That said, however, sometimes she was just bratty and juvenile. Her personality is kind of split, as others have noticed before. Well, I think this post is way too long, so I'll end here. So long, Bridget ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:15:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Romylee A. Ejercito" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Roald ?= Roald/ Mailing list messages/ SoI/ SoI Spoiler/ Heralds Message-ID: ~~Roald ?= Rolan~~ >>Firemist: There's been discussion about Rolan being Roald (who better to be the MO's Companion than a former M?) >Kory: Uh-uh. MOC are new spirits. My theory is that the same companion is reinced each time, and that's how he ahs all the needed knowledge--it makes up for his newness. Mylee: Ummm... Doesn't reincarnation mean that souls are reborn in a new body? So he can't be a new spirit if he's reincarnated. Am I being nit-picky? Anyway, I didn't know that MOCs had to be new spirits, I thought they were just Groveborn, which just means they didn't get born, and they have a lot more power than the usual Companions, right? And if this is the case, then I don't see why he can't be Roald. If info about this is found in the Concordance (?), sorry, I don't have it. I wonder if SFBC still has that in print.... ~~END~~ ~~Mailing list and lots of messages~~ >Myka: HINT: never, EVER subscribe to a mailing list then leave town for two weeks...270 messages!!! ACK!! Boy, do I feel sheep-ish ;) Mylee: That's why I postponed. And even then, I had 178 messages to go through when I got back. I'm on 2 lists, 3 if you count the Magewar list as separate, and though I could unsubscribe for the Misty list, I couldn't do that to my Pern list. I'm the post collector/filer there, and I have to have the stuff, so I ended up reading around 165 stories and a few personal e-mails. And today, I got 63 more messages. I'm not complaining. Well, not really, but reading all that stuff... let's just say that I only retain a vague idea of what went on in the stories. ~~END~~ ~~SoI~~ >Meg: Well shout hallelujah!!! I got SOI finally by overnight express today. Mylee: I visited 4, maybe 5 bookstores in Chicago before I found SoI. I bought it, I read it, I slept at 5 AM. Good thing I'm on vacation! ~~END~~ ~~SoI spoiler~~ Some stuff about SoI. If you're one of those strange people who like being kept in suspense, just skip through this part. >HTH: On to Misty. I'm slogging my way through *Sword of Ice,* amidst a veritable firestorm of mixed emotions. There have been some quite interesting stories, particularly Tanya Huff's "The Demon's Den" and Janni Lee Simner's "A Child's Adventures" -- which addresses, but doesn't answer, the question that's been nagging at me for some time, regarding whether or not it's possible to decline the honor of being Chosen. the infamous, long-awaited Vanyel/Jonne story. Mylee: The Vanyel-Jonne story - I didn't mind knowing about Jonne's background (though it was a bit too long), but I agree that Vanyel's characterization was pretty bad. I cringed when I read the "I'm shaych" line, and there wasn't enough action. Some stories were good, but others were just, well, they didn't have the right flavor to it. I don't like Salamander. Ironrose, although it's about the Tayledras, was interesting b/c we see that there are shy, awkward Hawkbrothers too. Some stories were good but could have been set anywhere except for mentioning Heralds or a specific Gift or something, like, um, drat, I must really get a modem soon b/c I can't remember the titles. In the Forest of Sorrows was interesting, and some stories I liked just b/c it explained/told about events that happened before the stuff in the books (Vkandis' Own, Sword of Ice). ~~END~~ ~~Heralds~~ HTH also wrote a lot about Heralds and Elspeth. I'm still thinking about Elspeth, but I have to say that I like the Heraldic system of government. For one, it prevents corruption. It prevents government leaders from giving in to temptation and lining their pockets from the royal coffers or the treasury or whatever. Not all the "best and brightest" become Heralds anyway, and I don't see anything wrong with having intelligent people running the country. Too many mistakes have been made b/c of stupidity and greed. Emotional blackmail... well that's true, but I'd rather have that than unchecked greed. Psychological problems... I don't know, I'm not an expert in psychology. I agree that they'll miss their families. But they can always visit. IIRC, they usually get taken at age 13 or so, but it's not as if they're mistreated. Some kids get sent to boarding schools at an earlier age. And at age13, kids start being more independent (in RL anyway) and they would want to leave home and live separately. I know that what they think they want isn't always what they really want, b/c they'll obviously miss their parents, but it's not as bad as taking a 7-year old away. Also, separation is usually harder on those left behind. When they get to the Collegium, they're surrounded by new things, they have to study and work hard, so there isn't really much time for being homesick. And of course, there's the Companion, who'll always love you (with certain exceptions). Backtracking to what I said at the beginning, I don't really mind the perpetration of the "glorious death" myth. I don't mind if Heralds come fourth or fifth or last. I don't mind if they drop dead protecting Valdemar. They have the choice after all. (AotQ, don't know the page but Teren or Elcarth was asking them during Orientation if they would like to back out after hearing about the dangers, etc) And they do get some compensation for it (the Companions, respect). There are only a few Heralds after all, and if they die to keep the majority alive and well, then that's fine with me. The good of the many and all that. The people _know_ that their leaders are to be trusted, that a Herald can't be bribed, that their judgments are, if not unbiased, then less biased than anyone else. They are willing to die for the people, and to me, that's much much better than being willing to fleece the people. I feel quite strongly about this, because there's just too much corruption where I come from. I'm sick of seeing politicians blather on and on about this bill and that bill that supposedly will help the people, going on trips to Europe, etc. several times a year, cheating and assasinating their rivals during elections, being absent many many times during Congress/Senate sessions, and doing other hypocritical things. At least I can trust a Herald. Mylee ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ M. Ejercito rejercito-+AT+-wesleyan.edu I have one of the most brilliant minds on earth... BUT EDUCATION RUINED IT!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:04:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Myka S." To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: My last(first) post Message-ID: Okay, okay...I've had three people tell me now that it's just not legal to make a Misty RPG. I've got the picture now ;) And please, Myka is fine...Mykalanthis is one of those damn Rethwellan names, after all! _____________________________________________________________ Mykalanthis, White Winds Journeyman, Merc for hire. ------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:17:20 -0500 From: mishi To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: pure fluff post - will get Misty post tomorrow really youwill Message-ID: <32D41CF0.914-+AT+-mail.ptdprolog.net> Okay I don't really have time to put the Msity stuff in this post I have to get ready for work. I actually might say something intelligent *gasp* for a change in that post so I want to keep it seperate. Okay first off. - Newbie Welcome Mishi runs around gathering all the newbies that I ahven't greeted already into one spot. Okay here goes. HEY Lady Becky you should help me out here too. There's a lot of 'em! Helo to Myka, Elven and any other newbie that I can't remember there names right now. Welcome to the fun, madness, drifting ashes, Deities, and sheep of the Misty List. And in my style of greeting -- GROUP POUNCE on the newbies. I'm not insane just nuts. Any questions anyone has e-mail privately at mishi-+AT+-ptdprolog.net and I'll try to help. If you want a list of abbrevations - e-mail Chen-Chen - privatley at chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg. I think that's it for this part Okay second thing - Welcome backs Mishi runs up to Lady 'Reesa and POUNCES on her before she disapears again. Congrats on your new house. *hugs* Vrondi - POUNCE - where have you been hiding? Or hae I just been blind? POUNCE POUNCES on everyone coming back from the holidays too. And last but never least - SHADOW-LOVER. Mi'lord Shadow-Lover, welcome back to the list your presence here has been missed greatly. About time you got back here. POUNCEPOUNCE POUNCE. Okay I think that is it. Love, luck and lollipops, Mishi, Goddess of Hyperness and Overbubbliness, Offical Welcoming type person to the Ladies of the Pink Wand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:49:32 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Elspeth/Heralds Message-ID: <9701082253.AA18824-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Lots of interesting stuff (HTH, was it your goal to avoid 'what she said'itis?). David said: >I think that we need to step back from the Herald issue and look at >Elspeth as a person. Do we really? I will agree with everything you said about her life, but I'm not really sure that it has any bearing on the issue. I have a really hard time with extenuating circumstances as an excuse (would you buy them from a murderer?). Hth said: >My problem with Elspeth is that I think she tried to play both >sides against the middle, to have all the privileges of being a >Herald without the responsibilities. I don't really see that in the books, but I'd really like to know _why_ you think that. I'm not sure that I can formulate my response without knowing where you are coming from (heck, I'm not even sure what the response will be without that info ). Also that'll give me time to get to a bookstore and buy a copy of WoFate... I needed one anyway . The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure that Elspeth is not a very good Herald, but I'm not sure why (my subconcious is muttering something about Van here...). Hmmm... Vanyel says something in LHM (MPrice) about how Heralds and Herald-Mages are different. They have different strengths and they need different training. Also, I don't think Van rode circut as a lawgiver cum policeman cum Queen's Eyes 'n' Ears ever. He rode circut as a defender of the populace (against nasty war magicks). Also, he had an instance where the Companions as a group backed him... (I feel like I have my finger on something, but I'm not sure what) Somehow an answer of Elspeth being a good Herald-Mage, but a bad Herald doesn't make sense. Firemist said: >But there is a reason why Heralds go along with their Companions' >advice when it is given -- a) they RARELY interfere. if a companion >sticks his/her nose in, then things must be going really WRONG. >as in -- companions urging heralds to let Van go and face >Leareth; Rolan helping when Talia's shields go all to hell. >These events had direct bearing on the way Valdemar >functioned and even the future of Valdemar. I can agree with most of the first bit. When Compainions (misspelling intentional) stick their noses in, things are usually screwed up. But they seem to do it in different ways. Rolan tends towards rather paternal meddling ie fixing Talia's shields, rescuing her. Those are all things that parents do for their children. He doesn't step in unless there is no way in Hell Talia can get out by herself, much like a parent trying to let go. Yffandes doesn't seem so parental, more like a businesswoman helping out a friend. She got Van the help he needed that he couldn't get on his own, and then let him do the job. Even when she was doing minor meddling, she always wanted Van to be doing all the work he was capable of. Gwena interferes like an overprotective mom. She KNOWS what to do, and expects Elspeth to do it, or she'll know the reason why. She seems to think nothing of messing around with Elspeth like a pawn on a chessboard. Lemee try something easier. My Problems With Heralds. Hth said: >I'm not comfortable with a society that thrives because the best >and brightest individuals are recruited to give up their freedom and >their lives for the good of the state. Me neither, tho I'm not really sure that's what happens. A Herald needs a strong sense of responsibility, and some kind of ability to follow directions. That knocks many of the geniuses right out of the running (at least the bit about directions... ). You can tell a genius all you like what to do, and how to do it, and half the time they won't do it that way. They had a Better Idea, but it wasn't what you wanted. The strongest Gifted tend to end up as Healers (gee, I wonder why? ). So lets knock off the top 10% in brains and the top 10% in Gifts (just for theoretical purposes, I have no idea if these numbers are any good). That still leaves Valdemar with a pretty big pool of smart and Gifted people to choose from. I'm not sure that Gifted people tend to be smart, so there's a much smaller group for the overlap. Those are prolly gonna be your Heralds, with a few tossed in from the smarter side or the Gifted side. I seem to keep hitting a wall, so I'll wrap it up and see what everyone else says tomorrow. Emily the invisible ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 17:14:17 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <12AA434AE2-+AT+-future.judson.edu> I must admitt I put the blame on this > squarly on Seleany's shoulders. Elspeth was her child and what was her > answer? Lets get a new MO that can handle the problem. I realize as Monarch > she has a lot of responsiblities, but come on! I have to agree here. Selenay should have had more input/control in raising her daughter. Elspeth was the Heir after all, and just because she was the Heir didn't mean she would be Chosen. It's the heart of a person, not the rank that Companions look at. Why did Selenay not do anything about Elspeth when she (obviously) saw what kind of a person she was turning out to be? I mean, Elspeth was the Heir, the only Heir at that time! One would think Selenay would want to do anything to ensure her being Chosen, yet she doesn't seem to care all that much. I'm sure an argument could be made that Elspeth reminded her too much of her husband who tried to kill her, but I don't buy that. Selenay, as Queen, has to put her own desires/concerns/etc. in second place to what is best for her kingdom. Vanyel says the same to Randale when Randale is lamenting over the fact that he is king, and may have to make a state marriage for the good of Valdemar, even though he is lifebonded to Shavri (which IMO is a more compelling concern than Selenay's). I happen to think that the problem between > the companions and Elspeth is that there was no honesty. Elspeth knew that > Gwena was not telling her the whole story. No, the Companions definitely were NOT telling her the whole story, nor was Gwena honest with her. This has always troubled me. Didn't Yfandes say to Vanyel, when he was asking her if what she said was her real opinion, :Of course it is! You know I can't lie mind-to-mind!: So how is it that Gwena was able to be dishonest with Elspeth? Do Grove-born Companions have some kind of exemption from honesty? For that matter, off the subject, is Fandes implying that there IS a way for her to lie? Of course, if she can't lie mind-to-mind, how can she lie? Could someone check the text for the exact quote? I get to go home in May for my brother's wedding, so I can get my books then! Anyway, that's all I have to say. Zhai'helleva, Jacquelle "You broke your little ships." Lily to Picard Star Trek: First Contact ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 18:29:12 -0500 From: Rose To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I'm sorry, so sorry Message-ID: <32D42DC8.1852-+AT+-ctol.net> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoppppppppppppppppppppps!!!!! I meant to send that to listproc!!! So as ya'll could see I'm changing to Juno! sorry. It's been a long day of descriptions. Kawryathen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 23:31:46 +0000 From: DAVID MAGINNIS To: mishi , mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: pure fluff post - will get Misty post tomorrow really youwill Message-ID: <32D42E62.47E6-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk> mishi wrote: > > Okay I don't really have time to put the Msity stuff in this post I have > to get ready for work. I actually might say something intelligent *gasp* > for a change in that post so I want to keep it seperate. > > Okay first off. - Newbie Welcome > > Mishi runs around gathering all the newbies that I ahven't greeted > already into one spot. Okay here goes. HEY Lady Becky you should help me > out here too. There's a lot of 'em! Helo to Myka, Elven and any other > newbie that I can't remember there names right now. Welcome to the fun, > madness, drifting ashes, Deities, and sheep of the Misty List. And in my > style of greeting -- GROUP POUNCE on the newbies. I'm not insane just > nuts. > > Any questions anyone has e-mail privately at mishi-+AT+-ptdprolog.net and > I'll try to help. If you want a list of abbrevations - e-mail Chen-Chen > - privatley at chenchen-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg. I think that's it for this part > > Okay second thing - Welcome backs > > Mishi runs up to Lady 'Reesa and POUNCES on her before she disapears > again. Congrats on your new house. *hugs* > > Vrondi - POUNCE - where have you been hiding? Or hae I just been blind? > POUNCE > > POUNCES on everyone coming back from the holidays too. > > And last but never least - SHADOW-LOVER. > > Mi'lord Shadow-Lover, welcome back to the list your presence here has > been missed greatly. About time you got back here. POUNCEPOUNCE POUNCE. > > Okay I think that is it. > > Love, luck and lollipops, > > Mishi, Goddess of Hyperness and Overbubbliness, Offical Welcoming type > person to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Hi, Hey Mishi,If we are newbies then what is everybody else Oldies? lol. By the way this film casting that's been going on is it 'ghost'casting, or is there a real misty film in the works? ( please!) David U.K. P.S. is there any restriction on picking names ,I have an Idea for one . ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1048 **********************************