MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1052 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) country songs by vrondi-+AT+-juno.com (Chrys A Dean) 2) Re: Elspeth by Randi Skjaeran 3) accents by rozanm-+AT+-juno.com (Rozanna J. McNeer) 4) 'Ghost' Casting by DAVID MAGINNIS 5) braid by dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (Dyana L Rose) 6) oldish stuff & newerish stuff by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> 7) Choosing Heralds/books/gryphons/casting/tables/death/music/Roald/Elspeth/etc. by Liseth-+AT+-aol.com 8) In defense of Elspeth/Firebird by Lynne Markova 9) braid - too many subjects to fit in one subject line! by Melanie Harris 10) Re: FLUFF country songs by Chris & Sean Talbot 11) Bad News by tygriss-+AT+-juno.com (Creature Person) 12) Titles by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 13) SoI/Non-Herald Reincarnations (new txtevd?)/Heraldic Government by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:40:44 est From: vrondi-+AT+-juno.com (Chrys A Dean) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: country songs Message-ID: <19970109.154045.2127.1.vrondi-+AT+-juno.com> Firemist said: > Actually I think my all time fave was 'what happens > when you play a country song backwards? > you get a job > you Sig. Other comes back > your truck works again > your dog comes back from the dead > your doctor gives you a clean bill of health as > you no longer have tears in your ears from lying > on your back crying over anything! > > country fans, don't hurt me! (being gentle, Firemist) Well, while I do understand this idea in many instances, ALL "country" songs are not like that. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But often people who have only heard that kind miss the good stuff because they refuse to listen to "any more whiny country." What about Kathy Mattea(my personal fave) who is greatly influence by Scottish music. "Asking Us To Dance," and "The Battle Hymn of Love" for instance are not what I'd call depressing. "Last night I dreamed of Loving You" was played on "The Thistle and Shamrock" as an example of Scottish influence, and her version of "From a Distance" has the most lovely mellow small-pipe work in it. Or Mary Chapin Carpenter? "Shut up and Kiss Me", "I feel Lucky," and "Passionate Kisses" are not pessimistic songs. And, ta-da! these ladies have very little accent. Sorry Firemist! (gryn) My favourite music is something I can gush about all day trying to convince someone so they'll see what they're missing. -Vrondi (who is proud that KAthy is Mattea is a fellow West Virginia, and also shares the sme birthday with both her and Talia ;) "We really only need two things in life: Duct tape to make things stop, and WD-40 to make them go again." http://edweb.concord.wvnet.edu/~deanca/book ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 23:31:31 -0800 From: Randi Skjaeran To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <32D5F053.253F-+AT+-sn.no> > Firemist wrote: > > The prime example of selfish feelings is Lendel (obviously). > He was selfish, he was repudiated. Elspeth is selfish, > but everything turns out okay. Would someone explain it to > me??? (wail) I wanted to go somewhere with this, but the > thread slipped my mind! > real bad example, I agree. Tylendels selfishness made him go for revenge, as a result of a long family blood feud. T imported wyrsa into Valdemar to kill his percieved enemies - members of the opppositions family, that is. Rather far from Elspeth, I think. Really, I believe Tylendel went mad when his mindlinked twin was killed. Esmeralda wrote: > I never thought she was particularly nasty to Skif. She had let him know > that she wasn't interested. They were meant to be partners, but he was > insisting on treating her like the Heir, getting sulky when she went out > and used her initiative/had fun. And having someone trying to get lovey > with you when your really *do-not-want-to-know* is awful - no matter how > much you *like* the person, they can be totally repellent in that sense. Finally someone I can agree with - at least on this subject, and partially. I think Elspeth was right to tell Skif off when he tried to wrap her in wool - reminds me very much of Kethry chewing Tarma out, in Oathbound, when she tried to remove all risk from Kethrys path. Elspeths way of doing it was harsh, but Skif wasn't listening to hints, was he? I really _like_ Elspeth, though Kero is my favourite. -- hug from Randi :-) (Be a blood donor if you can, please!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 17:01:33 EST From: rozanm-+AT+-juno.com (Rozanna J. McNeer) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: accents Message-ID: <19970109.160258.13142.1.rozanm-+AT+-juno.com> re regional accents, vrondi said: >Yeah, there is! jus' a minute, lemme look it up... >grrr, can't find it at the moment, but didn't Sherril or Keren one lapse >into their childhood accent once when they were comforting Talia or >someone? So, didn't Lake Evendim have their own accent? Keren: mumble mumble "what has caused tha greeting?" Talia: Dirk, lifebonded - told elspeth off - howl Keren: mumble "Explains dirk's madness.... thy problem with Dirk I have no answer" more mumble "Surely her Gwena would have sought out your Rolan" Dirk lapsing into his dialect when reunited with Talia before the wedding "I must shrink thee and carry thee in my pocket always. Hast a care little bird for thee hast my heart." Talia: "Then we are truly lost for thee hast mine in exchange for thine." and don't forget the infamous imitation in Arrows:: "Lor'! Chase her he did. Chased her until ~she~ caught ~him~!" or the farmer that was going to kill the ice-drake queen in LHM: "If I kin just stick 'im maybe he'll leave the girl alone." and some other things like that. disclaimer: all of those were from memory, but I ~distinctly~ remember them happening, even though I didn't textevd. vrondi, me, tygriss and sometimes Mat -- gotta love Juno! /-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/ Firemist rozanm-+AT+-juno.com Lore-Mistress of the Cat People Goddess of Made From Scratch Foods Bower Denizen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 23:28:08 +0000 From: DAVID MAGINNIS To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: 'Ghost' Casting Message-ID: <32D57F08.2B8-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk> Hi, Is this film idea real or just for fun?.I would of thought if Adrian Paul is Starwind,then Stan Kirch (also in Highlander) could be Skif. Everyone has also been casting the good parts,what about the evil ones like Mornlithe Falconsbane,Ancar or Hulda? sinnigam, Healer,Cordor Healers temple aka David U.K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 18:38:04 EST From: dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (Dyana L Rose) To: Mercedes-Lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: braid Message-ID: <19970109.183941.11150.0.DyanaLynn-+AT+-juno.com> Jake wrote: > Billy Ray Cyrus does not equal, oh, something like >Aerosmith. Two examples are not proof of a whole genre. Being from near Boston, I of course drool over Aerosmith. But, I love and adore country too! I guess sometimes it depends what you were brought up on. My parents and my sibs all listen to different music so, being the youngest, I learned to tolerate anything and eventually to like most anything. What about the Who's Tommy? If we could get Peter Townsend (sp?) to write for Misty, I bet he'd be incredible. Or maybe, Queensryche? Operation Mindcrime is awesome, but they would fit more with DT. Oh I'm still reeling over the Scientology and Tom Cruise. Just because he's a religion doesn't make him a bad person. If he's prejudice against saych roles, that's his business and not ours to judge him. He's not going out and hurting anyone as far as I know. So why must we be prejudiced against him? About when Companions choose. It's the ones who chose older people who always got to me until I thought of this. There are plenty of people out there who are 'what ifers; the kind of people who always think back on their life and wonder "what if I had just done instead?" Maybe all the older chosen are these kind of people? People who must live their lives by themselves first and get a taste of what is out their before they are ready to settle down to a career. That is what being a Herald ultimately is, an extreme career move. in our day, people don't chose until they are in their 20's. Maybe Velgarth people grow up quicker than we do, but I'm surprised not more chosen are saying what if, unless the Companions only chose the ones who never had a life to say what if about? > I'll raise a ruckus.. folk music has been around for _much_ longer than either >country or rock All this talk about Folk, and nobody ever mentions Harry Chapin? Obmisty: Uh, someone mentioned Firebird? Yes, it's good and I wouldn't mind discussing minor plot glitches, but I'm still stuck thinking about some major plot glitches in Firerose. P.S. To all you lovely Brits out there? Do any of you have any knowledge of the British Gallup poll? Because I just finished cataloging 4 years worth of 3 polls a week and want to know what in the heck they do with 150 polls worth of info a year on the same 9 variables!!!!! (can we tell that I work at a polling office in data entry?) Kawryathen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:54:07 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-jasper.uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: oldish stuff & newerish stuff Message-ID: Subject: souls/SoI cover/Van/birdbrains/Mistymusic/ casting Swordspoint/"Chance" & SoI/regional accents Ok, some of this goes *way* back, 'cause I can't let those old threads I was chewing on before I left just die. (mixed metaphor alert!) ****** Kimberly said, "Do you think souls were here before the gods? Just a question to toss around, since you have to wonder what happens to the gods whose worshippers die out. Like Need's Twins. Oh, SOW, does anyone think souls are naturally masculine and feminine, and does that influence what sex we're born as? Firesong *grins at Lee* was a fine balance between his male and female halves, according to Nyara. What on earth that means..." Don't gods have souls? If they do, can they preexist *themselves*? (Or, to put it less rhetorically, could a god's soul *become* a god rather than always being a god?) Summersong said, "I think that souls are both, and your *sexual preference* depends on which is more dominant.Your physical gender is pure accident, IMO. If the dominant sex of your soul decides what gender you're born as, there wouldn't be any homosexual/bisexual people around. [snipping the humility]" I've heard this theory before, but it seems to allow one to say, "Oh, he's not really gay, he just has a woman inside him." I don't know if I'm making any sense--I'm trying to suggest that a soul could be homosexual. Why deny souls a trait that physical people can have? Why should which sex(es) one is attracted to have to do with how feminine/masculine one is? The most feminine man I've ever met (he was like a little girl--you wanted to pat him on the head and give him candy) is straight. Actually, since I agree with what Glithoniel said about so-called gender traits being highly subject to cultural interpretation (I mean, you can say a soul has male and female, but how do you decide what is male and what is female without reverting to culture-bound concepts of gendered traits?), I might be the wrong person to ask those questions. ****** Kory said of the SoI cover, "[snip] a close-up of Yfandes from Mprice, where she's going 'Ooo! Some nice, fresh grass growing in the middle of a magic-hewn pass, which I can eat while Van feels guilty for using Enchanted Hair Tonic! *Gods* am I sick of that mash-meal I'm forced to eat on the road..' OK. I got a teensy bit out of control;>[snip]" Down, boy, down! Good elf. Personally, I think Yfandes is sexy. ****** Emily said, on the suggestion for Van as Elspeth's Companion instead of Gwena, "Besides, Van's so bad at people that I'm not sure he'd be any better." That reminds me, I've never really believed this "Van's bad at people" thing. He *is* bad at his personal life; he doesn't seem to understand his feelings and he can't seem to understand other people's reactions to him--but other than that I can't think of any examples that show he's not good at dealing with people. He seems to do well enough with people on the Council for example, or any other discussion-and-planning type of session. ****** birdbrains A little history on this oldish thread: Someone asked why bondbirds (and any of Misty's supposedly-bred-to-be-more-intelligent-than-normal animals) have enlarged cranial capacity. Then we started talking about how folds in the, erm, some part of the brain enhance intelligence so, yeah, why *did* Misty give the bondbirds big heads; and on the other hand it's probably true that a peanut-sized brain would be less intelligent than a peach-sized brain. So, my mom decided to buy a parrot (no, this is not a digression), and being a cautious sort, she started reading up on them in pet and bird-fanciers' magazines so that she could pick the right breed. (Okay, *here's* a digression--this woman wrote to the magazine to tell how she got this little bird that she taught to call her "Mommy". That was its first word. Then it learned "bean" (because it liked beans). Then it began to greet her in the morning with, "Mommy. Gimme a bean, Mommy. Gimme a bean *now*, Mommy!" ...End of digression.) Anyhow, I picked up a few facts--the larger parrots, it seems, can have the intellect of a four or five year old human child, able to name & identify shapes, colors, etc. When I heard that, I remembered in MPawn Savil says the bondbirds are not quite as smart as a small child. Hmm. But of course, the bondbirds are mostly birds of prey. What difference would that make? Well, since parrots don't fly much, less of their brains are dedicated to things (like coordination) that are important to the survival of a carnivorous bird. If you started breeding for smarter hawks, might there be some danger of sacrificing agility for intelligence?--unless you selected for enlarged brains, so that just as much brain could be devoted to flight as in wild birds. I'm not sure this holds together; I still think Misty should have gone for more folds in the whatever-it-is, or left the bondbirds' intelligence a mystery. ****** Aistes said, "since I like the 80's rock I listen to country." Since? You mean there's a causal connection here? I like 80's soft rock but dislike country. There may be similarities between 80's rock & country, as well as fans who like both, but that doesn't make them the same. Well, it sounds to me like you want the soundtrack to have music that might actually match Valdemaran music; I can imagine that really old country might do. But music with a beat, while not Valdemaran, would not necessarily mess up the story. Did you by any chance see "LadyHawke" (with Michelle Pfeiffer, Rutger Hauer, and Matthew Broderick) and hate the soundtrack? I loved it. ****** Speaking of music, the Musical Misty Character Matchup has made very little progress toward becoming an actual list of all the suggestions people had (although I did manage to catch the suggestions that got archived while I was gone). I'll get to it, eventually. If anybody had suggestions for the Compendium of Pedigreed Companion Names, that would be fun. Send them to me at 97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu. (For those who don't know what I'm talking about-- the MMCM is (will be) a compilation of everybody's ideas about what pieces of music go with which characters/couples/scenes from Misty. The CoPCN is a list of what names Companions would end up with if they were all named by their Chosen--you know how pedigreed pets end up with ridiculous names like "Lady Anastasia Hairball-coughing Basingstoke of Sunmeadows"? Like that. The original idea & suggestions came from Dax the Eternal: "Skif's Theft in the Night", "Elspeth's Starborn MagicCouncilor", "Vanyel's Heart-Mother Silver Savior", "Lores' Horsey", etc.) ****** Seanna said, "BUT think about the possibilities: Swordspoint the Action Movie, starring Tom Cruise as Alec and Sylvester Stallone as Richard...." I often think _Swordspoint_ would make a great movie, but then I keep having Horrific Visions of what the screenplay would do to all those wonderful dialogues... Stallone as St.Vier? Richard couldn't possibly be built like the Italian Stallion, I refuse to consider it. ****** "Chance" --SoI Spoiler Space-- About "Chance"--What Heather Said. (Especially point #1--the story should not have started with exposition. Lots of supposedly really good authors do the same in novel after novel, like Andre Norton and MZBradley (I do like Bradley, anyway), and most of the time I just can't stay awake long enough. Misty does it a bit, too, but she doesn't put me to sleep. I still find it annoying.) (Mylee said she didn't mind knowing about Jonne's background--I agree, but that kind of info can be introduced in smaller chunks, as needed, throughout the story, so that the action doesn't have to stop for five minutes while the author explains just who this Jonne guy is; and all of those references to things that had happened a short while before the opening of the story should have been narrated --like Van & Jonne's first meeting, darn it!) Also, it would have been nice if Shepherd had been a little more careful about the chronology--Van is supposed to have started his "subbing for 5 Herald-Mages" bit 1 year before the opening of MPromise, and to have had his affair with Jonne 2 years before that, but the Shepster has them happening at the same time. I liked Salamander, but it didn't have the feel of a Velgarth story. A couple of the other stories seemed...sloppy. Oh well. Some of them were good. --SoI spoiler over-- ****** regional accents There's the part in MPromise when Van finds Melenna in his bed and goes to sleep in Yfandes' stall, and in the morning ends up explaining to a stablehand (quoting from memory) "There was a problem with my bed last night." Stablehand: (Smiling) Aye, Master Van. I ken. There's some invites a body like t' give hisself. Or is that a whatdjacallit social accent? ****** Welcome, Kaitlyn! wttw, the Eternally Nourished Lee -97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu-Knight of the OAM- www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/-Spreader of Humor-Self Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"-"I collected my thoughts. Someday I hope to have them all." (Vlad Taltos) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:00:22 -0500 (EST) From: Liseth-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Choosing Heralds/books/gryphons/casting/tables/death/music/Roald/Elspeth/etc. Message-ID: <970109190022_1622831299-+AT+-emout08.mail.aol.com> And to Mark, about your copy of _Small Gods_, READ IT! I'm sure you'll laugh your way through it so quick you won't know what hit you. So, now about that honor of being Chosen that Heather so artfully brought up. The Chosen don't decline the honor of being Chosen when it happens because they have already been measured and found to be up to the standards. Remember, the most sensitive Gifts have described the first meeting with their Companion roughly as a feeling of being measured (don't remember which book that was in). Anyway, Griffon summed up their training in AotQ on the first day of class. It's just something so that they are more capable of doing what comes naturally. There are out there some completely good people. The Companions just found a way to concentrate them in one place. I won't even talk about Elspeth, there's been enough talk of her. And, as if it needed more support, I am definately in favor of Adrian Paul as Darkwind, though Queen doesn't need to do the music. Don't get me wrong, Queen is good, but Misty does her own music and I think the only one who could add to it would be John Williams. For my obligatory table post, who was it that mentioned a kindergartener not coming out from under the table? Sounds like someone I can relate to. >From Kimberly's post: >>I think the system covertly glorifies that >>myth of the "glorious death" that Vanyel was so ticked off by as a kid. > >No, I think the system glorifies giving everything for a cause. There ~is~ >a difference, and I can feel it, I just can't put my finger on it. :) The difference, as I see it, is in how you die. Now, there is a difference into running foolhardily out to the enemy to go down in glorius smoke and standing in a pass to keep back an army of Dark Servants, buying time for the army to get there. One is stupid, check out that first scene in MPawn, when Van is meeting the nobles for the first time. The other is noble. It is the only way that somethings can be saved. Also, I would like to put in my two cents about this Roald/Rolan thing: I don't think it works. Not because of the new spirits thing, either. Roald was Monarch before Sendar. My the official timeline that's been in a lot of the books I've gotten, Sendar took the throne in 1355 and Selenay took it in 1376. Talamir was old, and Rolan was his Companion as well. If Roald came back as MOC, Rolan would have to be a lot younger than I think he is. Oops, I thought up something to say about Elspeth. It's regarding that lack of character continuity mentioned in the post I just deleted. Whoever wrote it is absolutely correct. Beyond that, even her short appearance in BTS was a lot more like the Arrows Elspeth than the Winds Elspeth. I kinda wanna know what happened. Kaitlyn asked vaguely about Valdemar praying in order to get the Companions. As I recall, he prayed to all the gods he could remember the names of. Someone come up with the textevd on that one (books-+AT+-somewhere else). Liseth (with the hopefully upcoming title of) Goddess of Running Away and Hiding Under Tables ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:32:34 -0800 (PST) From: Lynne Markova To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: In defense of Elspeth/Firebird Message-ID: Lady Sophia emits an ecstatic trill and replies: RE: Elspeth Wow, what a difference in views! Here are some of the thoughts I have had during this whole discussion: When she is having the whole "difference with Gwena" thing in WFate. Gwena wasn't playing fair. In fact, she wasn't treating Elspeth as an equal at all. She didn't sit down with Elspeth, and carefully and judiciously explain everything she knew, and why she and the other Companions felt Elspeth should decide to do one thing or the other. Instead, she just tried to manipulate and "herd" Elspeth, instead of trusting her Chosen to do the right thing. Ditto in WFury. If anyone needs to "grow up," it's Gwena - she seems to think that just because she is a Guardian Spirit, she knows everything, and has the right to herd, manipulate and withhold her information from her Chosen. I also think that had Selanay not had the twins, Elspeth would have accepted her duty to continue being Heir, and would have ignored her own personal preference to the contrary. In AFall, she is shown as a very strong, capable, bright leader, who is willing to do whatever it takes to preserve her country, even if it goes against her personal preference (i.e. run the Council from a safe distance, while her mother is at the front lines). In BTS, she is also shown as a capable, responsible individual. With the birth of the twins also comes considerable angst and rumors on the part of the court and country - witness all of the nasty rumors that Prince Daren in conspiring against her. In WFate, I think what we saw is Elspeth's very natural relief at "for once" just being a "person." She got to act, and dress up, and "just be normal" for once, instead of being always a Herald, always Royal, always an Example. I think her reaction to Skif shows that Skif didn't really love her or want her for herself - he just wanted her for who he thought she was, and who he thought she "should" be. As to the whole "attitude" thing - if I were Elspeth and Darkwind said that to *me*, I'd have decked him, teacher or not, instead of giving the very reasonable response that she did. This is all just MHO, of course, but he really made absolutely no allowances for any sort of cultural or linguistic differences on her part, yet expected her to make all of the adjustments to his culture without question. Finally, I think that it would be a waste of Elspeth's abilities if they just stuck her back out in the field to ride circuit. She is an Herald-Mage, so she should be somewhere where she can train lots of potential mages, as well as have access to a workroom, HeartStone, and library. She is also an expert on all of these alien, and very strange cultures, so she should be at court, where she can advise the Queen, Circle and Council. She *also* has had extensive legal and political training, so both her viewpoint and expertise are very valuable. (BTW, I always thought it was strange that she was automatically off the Council after she abdicated as Heir - but I really also thought it was strange that she would abdicate in favor of minor children. Obviously, Valdemar does not have a high child mortality rate! That's the one thing that always struck me as irresponsible - and so did abdicating *before* she talked to the Queen. Makes a big scene, but it really makes no sense - *and* is unrealistic. Oh, well) Oh, well, just shows how differently many people can view the same character! RE: Firebird spoilers spoilers spoilers This is just a comment - I find it interesting that Ilya is one of the few characters who is actively sexual with more than one person in Misty's books, and yet is somewhat sexist! I wonder if she just couldn't envision Mother Russia without some serious sexism in it! (Of Russian descent myself, I wonder if I should be offended!) Good book, though I could have done with more appearances on the part of the Firebird herself, and less idiocy on the part of Ilya. Oh, well. Lady Sophia, trilling away Goddess of Music and Song "Live for the moment, sing for eternity" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:02:37 +1000 From: Melanie Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: braid - too many subjects to fit in one subject line! Message-ID: <32D5B14D.261A-+AT+-mat.army.defence.gov.au> Here comes Mel the Redcap, happily bouncing along wearing her late Christmas present - knee-high, pointy-toed, stilletto-heeled, lace-up shiny black boots! Wahey! Aistes said: > And I doubt any of you could forget Achy Breaky Heart by Billy Ray Cyrus > who is a county singer. No, I can't forget Achy Breaky Heart... no matter how much I want to! "Don't play that song That Achy Breaky Song You know I hate that song a bunch And if you play that song That Achy Breaky song It just might make me lose my lunch, oooooo..." with many thanks to Weird Al Yankovich!!!!! Firemist enlightened us as to what happens when you play a country song backwards; well, guess what happens when you play a Cliff Richard song backwards? You get subliminal messages saying "Get good grades" "Be polite to your parents" and "Clean up your room"... ~~~~~~~~ Korendil asked: > Want one no-one ever feels like discussing, but I'm pretty sure (Red-cap? > am I right?) we've never had a nicely sized thread over the fact that > Kal'enal is *damned* close to the names of one set of twins in Need's > priesthood. Er, I think they were Karanel and Dara, K? and Dina... Nope, to the best of my memory we've never hashed that one out - there was a brief mention ages ago, but no deep discussion. Though we *have* had a lot of discussion over whether or not there are only one god and one goddess in Velgarth, using false noses and different hammers - er, I mean, taking different names and aspects for different groups of worshippers. ( Pterry creeps into everything!) A lot of it centered around the name similarities and the comments made by Kal'enal to Kethry and Tarma - to Kethry "I am but another face of your Lady Windborne" in Oathbound, and to Roald & his companion (in Tarma's presence) "Well met, children of My Other Self!" in Oathbreakers. Hmmm... as I remember, a lot of the conversation was also the argument between the "I think it's a cool idea!" faction and the "Oh gawd, I hate the idea" faction. Personally I think it would explain why the god(esse)s won't directly confront each other, and why we don't seem to have turned up any Really Evil People Worshipping Really Evil Gods (all the god(esse)s seem to be *nice* - some are harsh, but none are evil), but it would also conflict with Kethry's musing in Oathbound re Thalkarsh that (if he were really a god) all they'd have to do would be find another god that was his enemy and contact some of that god's clerics. Possibly a case of the author having A Better Idea? ~~~~~~~~ Welcome back Shadow-Lover! And Heather!!! Yaaaaaay!!!!! ~~~~~~~~ Heather said: > I think there are probably psychological problems stemming from taking > adolescents, removing them from their homes, In modern Western mainstream culture, yes there would be - 13-year-olds (the age most Heralds get Chosen) are still considered children, are treated as such, and therefore haven't matured to the point where leaving home could be anything other than traumatic. But in Valdemar's pseudo-medieval culture, maybe not - in medieval times, 13 was the usual time for people to leave home and enter apprenticeships. In many areas and professions, 13 was actually the *last* year possible; at 14, you were considered too old to learn properly, and many apprentices left home - sometimes traveling a long way to their new master's home - as young as 6. Max asked me to send this: On the discussion about being chosen at 13 & leaving home; most noble-born children in the equivalent point in earth history were fostered out at age 4-6, and saw their parents maybe a half-dozen times a year; this also happens in Valdemar, & (less so) in Rethwellen. For many other children, an apprenticeship started at about 13 & lasted 4-10 years, all of which was spent with their master - & the amount of contact with their parents was entirely up to their master. > and inculcating them with the idea that their own needs should be the least > important thing in their lives; self-esteem issues, anyone? Now here I agree with you! In... er... one of the Arrows books, didn't a healer say that the worst problem with Heralds as patients was that they often felt guilty about wanting time to themselves? And one of Talia's year-mates, ?Destra?, the one who lived next door and kept Talia awake with her *cough* amorous adventures, was badly injured - in order for her to be healed, Talia had to keep assuring her that "being selfish" and "having fun" hadn't brought the injuries on her as a punishment for unHeraldic behaviour. Heather also mentioned her perception that Heralds are the "best and brightest" - this is Max again: Also, on Heralds: as far as I can see from various descriptions & acts (mostly of minor characters) Heralds are chosen for a sense of responsibility & a gift: it just happens that a lot of them are quite smart, although I think a lot of that has to do with teaching methods that stretch the mind & make you _think_. [Some Heralds are foolish at times, some are not particularly bright, some are prejudiced. They are there.] ~~~~~~~~ *giggle* and here's another suggestion from Max: BTW: for the movie; RuPaul in whiteface for Firesong. ~~~~~~~~ > Kory: Uh-uh. MOC are new spirits. My theory is that the same companion is > reinced each time, and that's how he ahs all the needed knowledge--it makes > up for his newness. > Mylee: Ummm... Doesn't reincarnation mean that souls are reborn in a new > body? So he can't be a new spirit if he's reincarnated. Am I being > nit-picky? nope, you've got a valid point! By "new spirits", Kory means "spirits that have never been human". > Anyway, I didn't know that MOCs had to be new spirits, I thought they were > just Groveborn, which just means they didn't get born, and they have a lot > more power than the usual Companions, right? Errrrr... have you read the Winds trilogy? *ahem* A Certain Somebody In There Whose Name Would Be A Serious Spoiler If You Haven't Read The Book says straight out that Groveborn Companions have "no human experience" - ie they aren't reincarnated from human. Since MOC are Groveborn... ~~~~~~~~ Part of Jake's .sig: > A grazing mace, how sweet the sound, that felled my foe for me / > I bashed his head, he struck the ground, and thus came victory... Jake, you are a sick, sick puppy.... and I love it! More, more! ~~~~~~~~ Heather said: >I think the system covertly glorifies that >myth of the "glorious death" that Vanyel was so ticked off by as a kid. and Kimberly replied: > No, I think the system glorifies giving everything for a cause. There ~is~ > a difference, and I can feel it, I just can't put my finger on it. :) The "glorious death" thingy never says that your glorious death has to be WORTH something - it just has to be *stylish*. If you give everything for a cause, that implies that in exchange for your "everything" you end up with some sort of return - something that you consider *worth* giving everything for. ~~~~~~~~ Somebody - I can't find the post (aaa!) - said that Gwena's interference was like a managing mother. I was talking about that with Max last night, and we both agree that she was acting more like your big sister, who KNOWS she knows best... it's hard to explain the difference in words, but anyone who's had a busybody big sister knows what I mean! ~~~~~~~~ Vrondi asked (re Esmerelda's vision of Van on a motorbike): > What about the companions? Heralds re-incarnated as a motorcycle? Would > they be like elven-steeds and just impersonate motorcycles? The idea is > intriguing, but without the god-sent companions Heralds would just be > administrative officials, not special. Esme specified in her original post (in a bit that got chopped off when she was first quoted) that her vision of Van On A Vroom-Vroom started when someone asked whether Companions would change their shapes in a high-tech society, and she thought of Companion-bikes. So yes, the bike probably has blue headlights ... I think it would be cool if they were actually horses that could take the shape of motorbikes, not "just" magical motorbikes. For one thing, how would motorbikes breed? Grove-born Harleys? ~~~~~~~~ Kait asked: > At least once in the books, someone recounts the story of how Companions > came to be- you know, when the first King did the spell/prayer and the > first Companions appeared in the Grove. Since the King *was* praying, does > this mean that there was some deity responsible for their coming into > existence? I know that Valdemar is a land with many different faiths, so > *which* deity was responsible? Lots of 'em! (Or only two, if you subscribe to the "all the god(esse)s are aspects of one god and one goddess" theory.) It was in _Arrows of the Queen_, and it said that King Valdemar prayed to "all the gods and goddesses he could think of". > if Roald is the king I'm thinking of- Selenay's father. Mmmmmnope - Selenay's father was Sendar. Roald was in Oathbreakers, quite a while earlier. I wish I had one of the books with a timeline here, so I could check - was Roald Sendar's father or grandfather? > Hey, how come *I* don't have any neat titles? :( Are these given out, or > can we adopt our own? If you want to be a Goddess of something, you have to petition Lady Thessaly, Goddess of Nomenclature, or (in her absence) her Avatar, Cennyd. If you come up with a good bribe - er, I mean, tithe - and your chosen title doesn't conflict with anyone else, you should get it. As for other titles, hmmm... if you want to be a Knight or Lady of the Order of Amber and Marigold, simply swear to defend Vanyel from accusations of whininess, genuflect in the direction of Heather (the Dame of the Order), and start using the title. If you think "Lady/Champion/Whatever of the Pink Wand" sounds interesting, ask the Lilac Fairy (on LilacFairy-+AT+-aol.com) to explain - she does it so much better than I can! Anything else, just make it up and stick it on! Mel the Redcap Redcap of the Pink Wand Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold Goddess of Supernaturally Scary Socks (not digests!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:10:48 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: FLUFF country songs Message-ID: <199701100210.VAA01155-+AT+-nemesis.idirect.com> At 08:37 PM 1/9/97 GMT, you wrote: >The Gid said: >>PS About 15 years ago a friend of mine and I wrote >>"The Quintessential Country Song" >> Oh you broke my heart, (twang, twang) >> so I broke yer jaw. (twang, twang) >> Then I got in my truck, (twang) >> and I drove home to Ma. (twang) >>Actually, it was more like 18 years ago, I was still living in >>Ioway ("that's where the tall corn grows") at the time. That is not that great. You are stereotyping country with that exaple of a song you wrote. For once most of them don't have a twang in there voice >Actually I think my all time fave was 'what happens >when you play a country song backwards? > you get a job > you Sig. Other comes back > your truck works again > your dog comes back from the dead > your doctor gives you a clean bill of health as > you no longer have tears in your ears from lying > on your back crying over anything! Aistes throws pillow at Firemist. That is very strange. Stereotyping not very good. Bad Firemist :) You should really listen sometimes to the words now they don't all deal with that stuff anymore. They just all used to. >country fans, don't hurt me! We won't hurt you just throw pillows at you. Aistes Throws another pillow at Firemist. See no killing that would be cruel now pillow fights on the other hand is just the right thing to do. It doesn't permanently injure people. Aistes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 21:49:14 EST From: tygriss-+AT+-juno.com (Creature Person) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Bad News Message-ID: <19970109.204808.5127.0.Tygriss-+AT+-juno.com> Well, I got bad news from my e-mail provider. They've phased out the 800 number I use to connect to get my mail. And the closest local number I can access is in Memphis. It's okay, I'm staying on the list. I've just switched to digest and can only answer my mail once a day until a more local number is installed or I finally get my Internet access straightened out. My replies just may be a little slow. Bear with me, okay folks? I just hope I survive the minor withdrawal symptoms. ;) Tygriss, who was gifted with 7 inches of snow last night with more on the way. Bless you, Wintershard, you Demon you! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:18:37 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Titles Message-ID: Since somebody asked and for the benefit of all the newbies we've recently gained, titles come in three flavors; !) usenames. These you get to pick yourself, just make sure you don't duplicate somebody already onlist. Ex: Fireheart, Icewind, Starstorm, etc -+AT+-) Divinity. This is closely regulated by our Goddess of nomencalture, who is off list right now, or her Avatar - our Beloved Mage of the Green Silences (another type of self bestowed title) submit a post with bri...tithe to Ken and he'll name you when he has time/inclination. #) Organizations. These come in several flavors, mage war related (Ones in Black, Ladies in Green, Men in White, Cat People) or just evolved out of our general, urhm, enthusiasm (Order of Amber & Marigold, Ladies of the Pink Wand) and have leaders who can admit you. HtH for OoA&M, Undine for LotPW, Jag for the Cat People, I'm not sure I got all those correct as they change over time but if you send an offlist message to somebody with one of those in their sig they can tell you who to contact for admittance. btw, how is the Mage War going anyway? OBMisty: Uhm...Do they have Lodge meetings in Valdemar? David Tiffany, God of Typos (fear ym wtrah!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:17:06 -0500 From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: SoI/Non-Herald Reincarnations (new txtevd?)/Heraldic Government Message-ID: <9701100317.AA03825-+AT+-water.waterw.com> On Wed, 08 Jan 1997, Hth wrote: >On to Misty. I'm slogging my way through *Sword of Ice,* amidst a >veritable firestorm of mixed emotions. There have been some quite >interesting stories, particularly Tanya Huff's "The Demon's Den" and >Janni Lee Simner's "A Child's Adventures" I liked "Vkandis' Own" by Ben Ohlander (about a younger Solaris) as well, and thought "Ironrose" (the one about the Hertasi) was cute, even if Larry Dixon was the co-author. (I bet he wrote the boring parts about the humans and Mel White wrote the better parts about the Hertasi) >-- which addresses, but >doesn't answer, the question that's been nagging at me for some time, >regarding whether or not it's possible to decline the honor of being >Chosen. > >There are also some stories that have irritated me half to death. I >found a few of them to have that annoying smug quality to them, that >undertone of "Don't you wish you were as cool as a *Herald,* you weak >little mortal, you?" Seemed to me like they kept saying "It's so cool to be a Herald; to want to decline is crazy so we'll just keep bugging you until you accept." I'd always thought you were able to decline - reference the orientation scene in AotQ. Maybe for some reason you can't decline until they get you to Haven? >I objected to at least one of them so far on >ethical grounds. And I was downright grouchy after reading "Chance," >the infamous, long-awaited Vanyel/Jonne story. >(2) A plot would have been >nice. I'm all for character driven, but "Vanyel gets wounded and laid" >seemed a little sketchy, even to me. I thought several of the stories suffered from lack-of-plot, including "Sword of Ice" (by Misty and John Yezeguielian), the one about Savil and Starwind. A short story where one of the main characters spends several paragraphs sitting around watching the other main character (who is in a coma) heal himself does not make for interesting reading (for me, anyway). Did the authors ever get around telling us how he got hurt? **** Is the girl Pilane and the Companion Pilane, both in the story "Blue Heart" (by Philip M. Austin and Misty - in Sword of Ice), an example of a non-herald being reincarnated as a Companion? *** On Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:15:24, Mylee wrote: > HTH also wrote a lot about Heralds and Elspeth. I'm still >thinking about Elspeth, but I have to say that I like the Heraldic system >of government. For one, it prevents corruption. It prevents government >leaders from giving in to temptation and lining their pockets from the >royal coffers or the treasury or whatever. I have to disagree with you here, about the Heraldic system preventing gov't leaders from becoming corrupt. Mainly, in that Heralds, with a few well-known exceptions, are *not* the government leaders. Heralds are like the police, the judiciary, the tax inspector, the CIA, the local EMT, etc all rolled into one. The government leaders are the Monarch's councillors (or whatever they were called - like Lord Orthallen), and seem to me to be quite susceptible to corruption. Of course, the exceptions would be the few Heralds who actually *are* on the council (the Monarch, the MO, the rep from the Heraldic Circle, and a couple others). Jeanne Hedge http://www.accsyst.com/jhedge/ Asst. SysOp - CIS Anime/Manga Forum ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1052 **********************************