MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1061 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Braid Ahoy! Oy! by Ken Hyde 2) newbie welcome post by mishi 3) deities by "Emily L Cartier" 4) Vanyel / Tom Cruise by "Hth." 5) Re: deities and crusades by Megan Schreiber 6) Re: deities and crusades/Normsly/Adepts/Truth Spell/Van essay by Liseth-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re:Vanyel by Faranheit-+AT+-aol.com 8) I'm in again-no I'm out again/elvensteeds/RPG by "Tasha MacClellan" 9) I'm an idiot & army by "Romylee A. Ejercito" 10) Braid Rustoleums His Sword In Preparation Of "Persuading" Brvaes by Korendil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:07:12 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Braid Ahoy! Oy! Message-ID: Teresa wrote: > I loved the Tregarde books, and SG :) I'm obsessed with Van and > LHM...although at times I do believe that somebody needed to step into > the book and hit him upside the head with a bag of bricks....gotta love > him, though... Hmmm. Well, I'll forgive your liking the Tregarde books, in consideration of your statement about Van. =) *giggle* However, I feel it my bounden duty to point out that the appropriate expression is "hit him in the back of the head with a board." (This is an inside joke btw, since Misty seems to be inordinately fond of this metaphor.) -----EOM/BOM Then Summersong wrote: > CIrcular reasoning. It is bad to be prejudiced, so it is bad to be > prejudiced against the prejudiced. He's not *actively* hurting anyone, > true, but his refusal to play a shaych role is messing with Anne Rice's > piece of art, which must be done in movie adaptations, but he should not > have right out refused to play the role if Lestat were still shaych. Well, two points here. First, disliking someone because they are "prejudiced" against a social minority is not prejudice. Prejudice means making a pre-judgement about a person's worth based on superficial characteristics. Making a decision about someone's worth based on their actual behavior and values is not prejudiced (although it is still judgemental). On the other hand, as for Tom playing a shaych character, why should he have to do so, if he doesn't want to? I don't think that the movie was in any way damaged by his refusal. The homoeroticism of the movie was still present. Honestly, I don't see what purpose (artistically speaking) LeStat's sexuality would have served. And as for "messing" with Rice's piece of art, well, the movie was not her piece of art. The movie was a collaborative effort which involved the contributions of a number of talented artists. She was merely one in a large crowd. Why should her voice have been more important than the director's or the cinematographer's, or the actors'? Because she wrote the book? I don't agree, since the movie is a different text and event than the book. Oh well. > *However* does one's sexual preference make any difference in what kind > of a person s/he is? The answer to this would be "YES!" On the most basic level, it makes a difference about whether they are "gay" or "str8." Now if you are asking whether it makes a difference in their "worth" or "value" as a person, then the answer is probably still "yes," at least in our society. Ignoring that reality is just asking for trouble. > he [Tom] didn't have to scream to the whole world that he denounces > homosexuality. As far as I know, he didn't. In fact, until people on this list started making claims about it, I didn't even know that he was behind the "straightening up" of LeStat's character. For that matter, I still don't know it, since there has been nothing but hearsay reported so far. Does anyone have any evidence that Tom actually said "well, I won't play LeStat if he is gay"? Now, one of the claims of Scientology is that they can "cure" homosexuality (at least according to a report I read in the gay press years ago). Which means, at the least, that they probably consider it to be a disorder or deviancy. However, that is certainly no worse than any other religion in this world (well, with the exception of a few neo-pagan religions). Most of the major world religions consider homosexuality to be a mark of evil or sin. So you can't really single out Scientology as the only offender. Nor is Tom the only actor to avoid gay roles. Mel Gibson has actually said, on the record, "I don't play fags." BTW, to bring this all around to Misty again....Oh wait, this never was Misty, this was about Swordspoint. Anyway, the point I was going to make is that if Tom were selected to play a gay Misty character (although Van is the only one he would be even close to appropriate for, IMO) he probably would have no trouble with the role. After all, the interaction "sur scene" between Van and his paramours is rarely any more intimate or "gay" than the interaction between LeStat and Louis in IwtV. -----EOM/BOM Mat (and a bunch of others) wrote with Textevd re: Gwena's experience. Thanks for doing so. I couldn't remember, and that is the Misty series that I don't have handy. I think that my mother has it. -----EOM/BOM Then Joshua (Shadow Lover? or did I snip to fast) wrote: > On the purely superficial side, and being shaych myself, I have > to say TOM CRUISE IS A HOTTIE... Well, that is a given. Yum! > Remember, folks, there's no one true way, just many paths > to a common center... I agree. Although, it must be admitted that some of the paths don't seem to lead towards the same center. =) BTW, for anyone who is interested in religious studies, a really wonderful book is "Ways to the Center" by Denise Lardner Carmody and John Carmody. Denise Carmody is a former professor of mine and she and her husband are absolutely brilliant RelSt. scholars. > Now on to more Misty related subjects, since this is after all > the Mistylist... Where do you think the ispiration for the Shadow-Lover > came from? I don't know where "Death the Lover" came from, but it has been around a while. There is a short story in one of the very early S&S books about a Death coming for a merc. I can't remember the title, but the line that stands out in my head is Death telling the merc "I do not discriminate" when he tries to pick her up (he thinks she is just a beautiful woman). Someone else already mentioned "Death and the Ugly Woman," which is a truly lovely piece of work. -----EOM/BOM Then Adrianne wrote: > The winner of the Science Fiction Romance newsletter's Best SF Romance > of 1996 award is Laurell K. Hamilton, for Bloody Bones. Romance? That is just plain weird! I truly enjoyed that book and I love Hamilton's writing (I buy her stuff as soon as I see it). But I would not ever think to call it "Romance" and especially not "Bloody Bones." -----EOM/BOM Then Firemist wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't adepts the only ones that can > tap into nodes? or can masters? Only adepts. The TextEvd is in the last book in the Winds trilogy, when Ancar is trying to break free of Hulda's control. There is probably other evidence. Also, remember that for most mage-schools (such as White Winds) there is a ceremonial spell that must be cast to "pass" into Adept status. The implication from OBreakers was that White Winds adepts test themselves, but other schools might involve testing by senior mages or such. > Um, Treyvan was only Master, but couldn't he gate? You know, come to think of it, there is no reason that being an Adept should be required for gating. After all, adepts can't draw on node power to create gates (we are told repeated that gates are created from the mages "personal" energy). Theoretically then, any mage who knows the spell and has enough personal power should be able to create a gate. -----EOM/BOM Then Woodlark (one aspect of the Lady Trine) wrote (again): > it gave me the feeling that the scientologist church is accepting of > queer society. 't'ain't. See above. -----EOM/BOM Then Meg wrote: > OOPs does this mean my request for a title from Korendil is null and > void?? I hope not. It is up to Kory of course. Various gods set their own requirements. And while on the subject of divinity, I'll just add that I have recieved a number of requests for divinity (the Godhead type, not the fudge). I am currently getting ready to create a naming ceremony. So, if you have not sent a request in (privately to me--requests made on-list will not be accepted as an anti-fluff measure) and you want to be named to a Godhead, please let me know. -----EOM/BOM Then Esme wrote: > weeelll, now lemme think ............... nope - it smacks of > paternalism. Them deciding what's good, and what the Heralds/population > shouldn't be bothering their pretty little heads about. Well, that is a whole nother can of worms. But, if they really are the special emissaries of a (or several) god(s), then within the internal structure of the story, they do know what is good. > Scientologists - declared persona no gratia in Germany I believe - > membership is considered grounds for not getting jobs/being asked to > leave. They boycott movies with Scientologist stars, I'm not at all > sure why. And Germany wonders why they still get bad press? > This really isn't meant as a flame but when something is known to be a > con you can't really expect people to take it seriously! I'll give a lot > of faiths the benefit of the doubt but there is no doubt about > scientology, it's a fraud! David, you are confusing your concepts. "Origin" does not equal "meaning." Lot's of things that start out as jokes or even frauds can take on a life of their own, particularly in the minds of believers. It is like televangelists. Just because some of them are snake-oil salesmen doesn't mean that their congregations are somehow "without God." And just because Hubbard is reported to have created Scientology as a joke/con (and if so, it is the most elaborate con I have ever seen) doesn't mean that it is without worth. Ultimately, the judgement must be based on the faith of the believers, not on the faith of the first teacher. -----EOM/BOM Kory wrote (and was quoted by Katie--I lost the original post): > Korendil wrote: >>reading through this extremely long paragraph for: pg.93 hc of WoFury: >>"Be gentle on her, Elspeth; as Companions go--when compared to, say, >>Sayvil--she is very, very young. No older than you, in fact. She makes >>all the kinds of mistakes any young thing makes, but because she is >>Grove-born, she thinks she will always make the right decision.: He >>shook his head. :She forgets that she has *no* real, human experience to >>base her decisions on. It is like dictating music when you yourself have >>never learned to play an instrument.:" >That proves that, no, she has never been human, that Sayvil has, that they >have orchestras, or at least conductors on Velgarth, that GB are around for >some time before appearing in the Grove (Gwena is the same age as El, yet >didn't appear until El was 14 or so), and, imo, implies that all GB are not >human spirits and the onyl strange thing about Gwena is that she doesn't >even have much *Comapnion* experience to base her decisions on. Hmmmm. Well, actually, no, it doesn't prove all of that. It *proves* that Sayvil is older than Gwena. It proves that Gwena does not have any real, human experiences. It doesn't prove that there are orchestras or conductors on Velgarth (neither are even mentioned). It does prove that there is a notational system for music and that Vanyel, at least, recognizes that there is a difference between composing and playing music. It also implies that Van does not think that being Grove-born means that a Companion will always make the right decision (and given his status, he is probably a reliable source of info on this topic). So, I guess that sort of addresses the issue that Esme and I (among others) were debating. Apparently being emmissaries of the gods does not mean that Companions have any quarantees about moral decisions. So they aren't "angels" (who do have such guarantees, since they are the messengers of God--if you believe in that sort of thing, of course). > You are way to hyper. Does anyone else think that the Star Eyes and > Vkandis might both be the god and goddess of Karse. The Star Eyes name > is quiet close to the comapanion goddess of Vkandis in SW I think that Kory is the current champion of this idea. I will say that there are both story-internal and external reasons that I feel this might be on the right track. Kory can give a better run-down of the internal reasons. The external reasons have to do with my perceptions of Misty's writing. I won't go into them here (another post, perhaps). -----EOM/BOM Then Lee wrote: [Something about the truth spell. Which I accidentally snipped. Basically, to the effect that she thought that Savil might have gotten it from the Tayledras.] I seem to remember Vanyel remarking that only the Mages of Valdemar had ever made contact/discovered the vrondi. This is in MPrice (which, wouldn't you know it, is at home) when he is designing and setting the Web Spell. If this is true, then it would argue that the Tayledras did not originate the spell. Perhaps Savil did, but on her own, rather than getting it from outside. -----EOM/BOM Then la RedCap wrote: > Max says: L. Ron Hubbard started Scientology as a bet. He wrote > "Dianetics" which developed into the Church of Scientology. This is the only part of the whole "Scientology" story I have problems with. Basically, my problem is that Dianetics was already floating around at the turn of the century, I think. James Thurber remarks in his autobiography that his mother was a follower of dianetics, which places it as early as the 20's (not sure of the dates). Of course, it may be that Hubbard borrowed from an early form of Dianetics. -----EOM/BOM Then Shy wrote: > Vanyel mentioned in the Winds that there is a Goddess ruling Valdemar > except that she doesn't interfere with the people as much as the Star > Eyed does. Can you provide textevd for this? I don't remember Van ever saying that there was "Goddess of Valdemar," just that he served "a goddess." Since there are a number of deities who are worshipped in Valdemar, and since Van was also heavily influenced by the Tayledras, I assumed that he was talking about either Astera or the Shin'a'in and Tayledras Goddess. -----EOM/BOM Then Jake wrote: > Misty's concept of deities seems to show that the more believers they > have the stronger they will be. It's a concept used often in some > fantasy books; off the top of my head I know Terry Pratchett uses the > believer to deity power ratio in his books (Small Gods). I am not sure that this is the case in Misty. I think that there is some implication in the part of OBound dealing with Thalkarsh that there is a "critical mass" of worshippers, the existence of which will "create" godhead in the object of their worship (although, crucially, it doesn't apply to humans, else Charliss would have been a god). If this is true, then it may be that there is no reason for gods to seek more believers. More explicitly, if gods do not derive their power from the number of worshippers, then there is no reason for a god to seek more worshippers. Anyway, I am finished (thank whatever powers there may be). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:36:20 -0500 From: mishi To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: newbie welcome post Message-ID: <32DD4DD4.55B6-+AT+-mail.ptdprolog.net> Okay here I go again! *giggles* Okay all you newbies that have no clue what I'm about to do - go stand in a group over there while I go over there so I can get a running start. POUNCE!!! POUNCE!!!! POUNCE!!!!! Hello Emma, Annette. Tamarisk, Catarina and anyone other new person I missed. Don't mind me I'm nuts not insane. POUNCING is just my way of saying hi. So, welcome to the fun, madness, white coconuts, sheep, and assorted other things on the list. Okay. just a few things here that might help you out a little bit. 1.) when you want to respond to as couple of things try to put them into one post by braiding them together instead of sending two or three seperate posts. Braiding is just combining different parts of different post together. I usually do it by cutting and pasting, but some others know of different ways to do it easier I think. 2.)when you answer something, you don't need to put everything from the post you are answering, just put enough of the post of everyone knows what your reply is for. Also try to remember to quote whoever said what you are replying to. 3.) Let's see we have different groups on the list (Ladies in Green, Cat People, Ones in Black, and Men in White) that sprang up when the Magewar started. Magewar is a sepreate list that a lot of memebers of this list are also on. If you want to know more ask me. 4.)We also have two other groups. One is the Order of Amber and Marigold. That group basically defends Vanyel. If you want to know more about that, contact Heather (HTH) she'll be able to tell you more she started it up. The second is the Ladies of the Pink Wand. Ask me if you want to know more about the Ladies of the Pink Wand. 5.)Don't feel offend if you don't always get a reply to something from some of the older members. Some of the topics have come a couple of times and the older members just don't feel like replying again to the same thing. 6.)You'll notice some people have ttles in the Sigs. If it is something that says you belong to a group or a God or Goddess title, you must ask to be part of the group or to be diefied. To become part of one of the groups you must ask or be invited. To be a God or Goddess you must petition Lady Thessaly or her Avatar Cennydd. You can also become a priest or preistess of a God or Goddess by asking that person to become one. 7.)If you want to say sometihng about one of the newer books you need to put a lot of spaces before and after what you want to say, so that people that haven't gotten the books yet can skip over that part if tehy don't want to know anything about the book. Okay I think that is it. E-mail me PRIVATELY, off-list with any questions. My e-mail is mishi-+AT+-ptdprolog.net Love, luck and lollipops, Mishi, Goddess of Hyperness and Overbubbliness, Offical Welcoming Type Person in the Bower of the Ladies of the pink Wand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:37:41 -0500 From: "Emily L Cartier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: deities Message-ID: <9701152141.AA10223-+AT+-udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Jake said: >However, I don't remember reading about active conversion or holy >wars on Velgarth. The Velgarthians are very much like Earthians >(I know, I know.. Terrans, but I like Earthians better. Sounds >cooler) and I would imagine that somewhere on the planet, this >happened. Pratchett dedicated a whole book to it. What happened to >Velgarth? Hmmm... Lots of good ideas already stated. Maybe Misty just doesn't want to write about such things. Also, her characters don't seem to see religion as vitally important, and pleasing their god as absolutely critical. Mostly we're looking at Heralds, and it says somewhere in the books that Heralds tend to be the kind of people who rely on themselves and don't worry much about god. Lee asked where the concept of deities growing stronger with more worshippers came up. It's in OBound, where Kethry is running down the list of ways to kill a god. One of the ways is to cut down on the number of worshippers so the god has less power. Lee also said: >I think that there maybe certain religious doctrines that can easily >lend themselves to a crusading ideal...and I'm going to leave that >train of thought right there b/c I have a feeling that's one of the >ones that can get us into arguing about the nature of Xtianity...but >I doubt Misty was thinking of that, anyway. Or Islam... Or the Roman Imperial religion... Or various rwars that no one remembers anymore cause they were all among tribes... Or the PC vs Mac vs Unix "debate"... Let's not go there, PLEASE! Any group can develop a crusading mentality, and sometimes religion has nothing at all to do with it. Lady Silvermoon: I was checking out the Del Rey webpage, and they said _King Kelson's Bride_ should be out in 1998. In hardcover . Emily the invisible ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:32:49 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Vanyel / Tom Cruise Message-ID: <15JAN97.17870849.0028.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Well, Emma or Annette, or whichever new person mentioned Vanyel, since you do profess general adoration for Van, I'm gonna let you off with a warning However, here it is, and it is a warning for all of you: I am currently at work on an essay -- no, a real one, not the impromptu nonsense I click off around here -- on Vanyel's psychology, tracing the major influences on his life and how they affect his actions and personality. When I am finished (which will probably take a couple of weeks; I want to do this right), I hope it will become much clearer what I mean when I say *no one should be hitting Vanyel Ashkevron over the head with anything heavy.* I will then defy anyone to say that in the same circumstances, they would have been Better People than Vanyel. (And guys, if the "well, I would've felt the same way" argument excuses Elspeth's insubordination/treason, I'm going to expect it to excuse Vanyel's melancholy.) Actually, I'm having a lot of fun writing this paper. I hope y'all enjoy it, either from the perspective of "how interesting" or from the perspective of "wow, she is *really* high this week!" On to Tom Cruise. (BTW, on my cast-list -- I keep my own -- I have him playing Kris, in case it matters to anyone.) Personal bias: I dislike Scientology about as much as I dislike anything, and not remotely because of whatever they believe. I dislike it because it was essentially created to make money for Hubbard (and I have a *serious* bias against people who use religion of any kind for their own personal financial gain, whether it be creating a religion out of whole cloth or selling those stupid "Jerusalem crosses" on TV or whatever), and because they're a bunch of thugs whose stated policy (I can find you the quote if anyone really cares) is to harass and destroy anyone who leaves their Church. They've had quite a history of legal trouble because of their various activities. That said, it's only becoming to deal with Tom as an actor, not as a member of whatever organizations he chooses. I think he's a great actor, end of story. And here's the radical part: whatever his personal feelings are about homosexuality, I don't think he lets it get in the way of his acting overmuch. Let's talk about Interview. Occasionally people pop up to say that the movie Interview with the Vampire was "straightened" by Hollywood so they wouldn't have to deal with Lestat & Louis' supposed "homosexuality." I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing that at all. At no point in the book are either of them referred to as "homosexual." At no point is there explicitly sexual contact between them. At no point do they speak of being in love. Now, I think there *was* a lot of sexual and romantic energy between the two characters, but that's all it was: a certain tone, a turn of the writing, hints and shading. In this, I think Anne Rice did a pretty good job: you *knew* what she was saying, even without her having to come out and say it in so many words. Guys, that's *exactly* how I felt about the movie. There was an aura of sex and sensuality throughout the movie, from the first time the two characters meet: Lestat holding Louis in his arms, whispering to him, Louis' blood on his mouth, just like every stereotypical "sexy vampire" image, with the tuxedoed man holding the swooning, white-gowned girl and forcibly initiating this intimate contact. Then, when Lestat returns, he stalks around Louis' bed, promising, enticing, while Louis looks up at him with real longing. From then on, Cruise plays Lestat's obsession with Louis, his jealousy and his frustration at the distance between them, and I didn't see him backing down from it at all. Is all this sexual? Well, for an Anne Rice vampire, yes. Remember, they don't have sex anymore; they're not interested. But there's an emotional passion and a sensuality that they do need very much, and it's pretty clear that Lestat wants that from Louis, who isn't giving in. Remember their meeting at the end, when Lestat says, "The more you denied me, the more I wanted you," or something to that effect? The issue isn't genital sex, as it might be for humans, the issue is that longing, the *wanting.* I think the movie captured that, as well as not ignoring the sexual undertones to vampiric desire (remember Louis and Armand? Their goodbye scene was as explicitly sexual as vampires could possibly be.) So my point is (A) Neil Jordan gets a bit of flak for his movie that I don't think was at all deserved, since he maintains the "homoerotic" feel of the movie and doesn't cut out anything overt, as some people tend to imply that he did, and (B) Tom Cruise didn't seem to me to be uncomfortable with a character who's primary motivation was a desire to, in a sense, possess or become one with, another man. Maybe actual physical sex would be harder for him to deal with, but I think you'd find that true of a lot of male actors (I remember Keanu Reeves saying he'd been extremely uncomfortable filming the more sexual scenes in *My Own Private Idaho,* and those were even with his best friend, which you'd think would make it easier -- or not). I also remember Cruise talking about how badly he'd wanted to play Lestat, how fascinating he'd found the character, and how much he'd enjoyed exploring Lestat's many levels. I think I trust him to at least consider a good gay part, and, *if he accepted it,* to do his job well. Just the impressions of a veteran celebrity-watcher HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:25:19 -0700 From: Megan Schreiber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: deities and crusades Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970116002519.0067b7bc-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu> >2)No other gods have manifested, other than Shadow-lover=20 >and we don't know if he/she/it is a God. As I recall, when Vanyel met with Death in...erm, Magic's Promise? Death said he wasn't a god, merely a messenger. It's been a while since I've read it, and I don't have it here to refer to. *sigh* Megan-the-newbie-on-the-list-who-doesn't-have-a-way-to-sign-herself-yet - * - =20 _ __,;;;/ Megan Schreiber =20 ,;( )_, )~\| mschreib-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu ;; // `--; http://cougarnet.byu.edu/~mschreib ' ;\ | =20 Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. "Si os oigo quejaros siempre de la vida, =BFpor qu=E9 os da tanto miedo dejarla?" --_La Dama de Alba_ "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas at the same time and still retain the ability to function." --F. Scott Fitzgerald - * - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:41:01 -0500 (EST) From: Liseth-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: deities and crusades/Normsly/Adepts/Truth Spell/Van essay Message-ID: <970115194015_1444627859-+AT+-emout19.mail.aol.com> Firemist wrote: >4) there was mention of religious war -- the one that >Kero fought in against the female prophet in BTS, >where the altar went up in flames. is that applicable? Well, that would be case and point. It is revealled in the Storm books (sheeps to all who haven't read them) that Vkaendis (sp?) was not being properly worshipped at the time. Solaris fixed that. If the gods didn't want religious wars, that would be the only time that one would spring up. ------------------------************ About this Normsly thing.... Falconsbane didn't have a mother: he stole An'desha's body. When he had a mother he was called "Ma'ar." He was also sane then, but that doesn't make me think that that slave comment was at all wrong... -----------------------************ Cennydd wrote: >You know, come to think of it, there is no reason that being an Adept >should be required for gating. After all, adepts can't draw on node power >to create gates (we are told repeated that gates are created from the >mages "personal" energy). Theoretically then, any mage who knows the >spell and has enough personal power should be able to create a gate. It occurs to me that it requires more power to control the nodes. You have to use personal power to do this (Van's recovery, MPromise). Maybe the amount of personal power required to activate Gates is the same as that required to control nodes. And about the whole adepts and nodes debate, yes, only adepts can use nodes, but I think all the Tayledras can, no matter how minor a mage they are (I think this was mentioned in MPawn, but books-+AT+-somewhere else). Hope this helps.:) >I seem to remember Vanyel remarking that only the Mages of Valdemar had >ever made contact/discovered the vrondi. This is in MPrice (which, >wouldn't you know it, is at home) when he is designing and setting the Web >Spell. If this is true, then it would argue that the Tayledras did not >originate the spell. Perhaps Savil did, but on her own, rather than >getting it from outside. This reminds me of the Truth Spell cast on Elspeth in WofChange. I remember her wondering if Valdemar got it from the Tayledras or vice versa. There hadn't been any contact between Valdemar and Tayledras (or at least there is no evidence of any) since Van, does anyone have an opinion on this? ----------------************** Emily wrote: >Also, her characters don't seem to >see religion as vitally important, and pleasing their god as >absolutely critical. It might be because their god feel that they should do everything they can on their own. Like the story of the hunter who hunted by luck and his luck ran out (which book was that?) -----------------**************** HTH wrote: >Guys, that's *exactly* how I felt about the movie. There was an aura of >sex and sensuality throughout the movie, from the first time the two >characters meet: Lestat holding Louis in his arms, whispering to him, Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see this. Of course, I *haven't* read the book. It could be something you were looking for or expected because it was in the book. That could always make something stand out more. she continued: >I am currently at work on an essay -- no, a real one, not the impromptu >nonsense I click off around here -- on Vanyel's psychology, tracing the >major influences on his life and how they affect his actions and >personality. When I am finished (which will probably take a couple of >weeks; I want to do this right), A few weeks? I never take that long to write an essay, and everybody except the SAT people seems to like my writing. I just start writing and stop a couple pages later. Anyway, I'd like a copy when you finish, please. >I hope it will become much clearer what >I mean when I say *no one should be hitting Vanyel Ashkevron over the >head with anything heavy.* I will then defy anyone to say that in the >same circumstances, they would have been Better People than Vanyel. Can we hit Withen over the head with something heavy? Or should we leave that honor to Savil? Liseth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:29:39 -0500 (EST) From: Faranheit-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Vanyel Message-ID: <970115212837_1858118126-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> Heather, I look forward to reading your essay when you're done. I wish I'd thought of that idea. Oh, well, it's probably just as well that I didn't, I probably wouldn't do a very good job at it. Writing isn't my strong point. Although, I do write letters and I like reading other people's essays and stories. Are you just drawing stuff from the books, or are you going to add what other's say in it? If it's the latter, then I think you should read that song Catherine Faber wrote. Bye for now, Peony ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 1997 02:45:52 -0000 From: "Tasha MacClellan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I'm in again-no I'm out again/elvensteeds/RPG Message-ID: <19970116024552.21184.qmail-+AT+-hotmail.com> I'm in again! I'm out again! Finninninnigan! (I think...) Don't know if those outside the US have heard or seen Ross Perot, but that's a commonly used line to tease on him. And, I'm starting to feel that way, as many times as I've been on and off of the list! -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Dax said: >"Rhia never had an elvensteed for the same reason the limo isn't >an elvensteed, ONLY Seelie court elves can have elvensteeds, they >will only serve good people, [snip]" To which Lee replied: >Didn't Vidal Dhu in the first SERRAted Edge book have an elvensteed? Yes, he did. A bad elvensteed, but an elvensteed nonetheless. Maybe elvensteeds have bad and good tendencies, just like humans (or elves in this case!). As for only court-type people having elvensteeds, do you think that a race of benevolent people like Misty shows them to be would leave one of their kind out to dry by not giving them someone to watch their back? -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- Did my thing about the example RPG ever get on the list? Wasn't on to find out... If not, I think it's a good idea that can solve a lot of problems in this area. Byyyeeeee!! Icesong --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:16:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Romylee A. Ejercito" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I'm an idiot & army Message-ID: Okay, I just cane back from a 4-day trip from Washington DC. I was going to send a message and unsubscribe. I wasn't able to drop a note b/c I was in a rush, and I _thought_ I unsubscribed, but I think I had a typo and so I was still on the list. So now I find myself having to read 271 messages, more than half of them from the Misty list. Stupid me. Since tomorrow's the first day of school, I don't have time to read everything, so I just deleted all the posts. With some posts, I had to go look at the post itself to figure out if it was "deletable" or not. One post caught my eye b/c someone replied to something I said. I was saying something about my being callous b/c I didn't care if Heralds died for the greater good, and several people said they wouldn't want to be in my army. Isn't it great that I don't have an army. But don't compare me to Ancar. Ancar didn't care if his army died b/c he wanted power for himself. There was nothing good in his motives. Say I was the commander of the army. I would definitely send Heralds out to their death IF it would help. ONLY if it will be for the greater good, and not b/c I want power (Ancar) or because I want to be hailed as a military genius (Shaiknam, I think). That's for MY good, not for the greater. Only one person would benefit from sending them out to a senseless death - me. If I have to sacrifice ten people to save 200, then I will. Or at least I hope I will, since I've never actually been in battle. I don't think anyone can be a good commander if they can't do that. By all means, save everyone, as long as it's possible. If not, then I'd rather lose ten people than 200. M. Ejercito rejercito-+AT+-wesleyan.edu I have one of the most brilliant minds on Earth BUT EDUCATION RUINED IT! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:28:53 -0500 From: Korendil To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Braid Rustoleums His Sword In Preparation Of "Persuading" Brvaes Message-ID: Esmeralda wrote: >My theory is that the Companions were more than happy >with her going to the Tay-tiddy-doodahs Ya' know...the second I hit the "Tay-tiddy-doodahs" part, I began to think 'twas you, so I looked up at the From: line, and sure enough....your "doodits" and "wossems" really are a signature trait;P >C'mon Kory - you've been known to get somewhat verbose on non-Misty subjects >in your time. Remember braids ain't compulsory. Quit pouncing so fast. Blah. LOTSa people are misunderstanding what I meant--I didn't mean our off-topic stuff, which springs from our on-topic stuff and is really interesting. The astute reader will notice "off-off-topic" in what I said, and that's what I meant;> Stuff that people will post that doesn't have a thing to do with the list in any way, prolly doesn't apply to all of it, we aren't discussing--that kinda stuff. Not our threads. > Don't you fret - and ask on - we keep wittering away >about improving the FAQ, but I don't think anything's been done yet. (Yes, >that includes nothing done by me). Well, according to the FAQer, Jake, he's half-done...and already at 50 pages! Sheesh! Give 'im time, give 'im time... Liseth said: >Someone (bad delete fingure) mentioned repetition in the names of the >Tayledras. Which were these? I remember some names that were close >(had half the name the same) but none that were exactly the same. hmm...at SOME point in the past, we had a big discussion about thi--no, no...that was just finding a different combination of words. It boils down to, basically, that Tayledras names seem to be based on some certain words, two of which are joined together, to form a name. And while one half or the other might be in other names, I don't think the full name was repeated.. Em said: >>But there is not age limit on being an adept. You might not be >>*trained*, and then you would have adept potential. Ack. I think >>I just contradicted myself. >Sounds right to _me_. Example One: Elspeth. She had Adept Potential >from the time her Gifts showed up, but it didn't do her a bit of good >til she had help from someone who knew what to do with Mage-Gift >. Okay...the way someone is categorized as an Adept is by being able to use Nodes. To be able to act like a full-fledged Adept you hafta be able to DO stuff with it--the actual tapping Nodes is possible from the beginning, but you aren't really taught how until you're willful enough to control, or so was the impression I got. The thing is, we KNOW they can tap Nodes from the start if someone just bothers to tell them they can, like..oh..Moondance;> Remeber Van? AFter barely undergoing training, he used a Node to fry Krebain...he just couldn't do any neato magical attacks or spells or anything--yet. Mistweaver said: >Her name is Tressa. No it isn't;P Git..take yer tithe from Mistweaver..good Git;P It's "Treesa." Another little warning before I get off my rocker, folks...try to at LEAST put an ObMisty or two, or to do it privy mail....and...not to name a name...the country thing is getting *old*.... Dax said, making me crack up: >I have not and I would love a copy if anyone has one, please, please, >please, with elves on top? (weg) Dax...um....he didn't succeed;P It was a good try though, Kenny;> And "elf." Singular;> As this doesn't say a thing about the ss involved: >Mylee asked: >>Someone said s/he liked Salamander but didn't have the right >>flavor. Did they accidentally include a non-Velgarth story in here?" > >I wondered the same thing, at first I thought it was set in the same town >as Cast of Corbies... Come ON, guys! YOu really don't recognize the name "Mournedealth" and the different colored Houses? Yer kiddin'. Okay...a slight suggestion...try to reread OBound;> >Now that Shadow-lover is back do you have to give up Acting Master of Dreams? Well, actually, we're going to Duel o'er it;> I thought I'd save my self the trouble and just leave it there, so when the Duel finishes, instead of having to retype the whole thing, I can just delete the Acting part;> >And if you want Jake to acknowledge you again, maybe you should get rid of >the last line of your sig. Oh, he has...so..I don't think he minds...do you? Aili said: > Also as list sibs >occasionally "personal" issues come up for all of us and we like to discuss >them on the list cause we feel that we have a cyber family. No, no...I've forwarded that idea myself--I mean stuff just asking someone something or stuff, all alone in an email--the kinda stuff that's not list-stuff, if you get the idea. Like...I can't think of anything now, but I had seen a few examples in the days before I wrote that. Fireheart (welcome back, btw!) said: >Ok, now that that is taken care of... HOW many Misty books have come out that >I've missed?? Last thing I saw was Storm Breaking in Hardback... nothing else >have IU even HEARd... geez... MO kept me from learnin' stuff... oh well.. Um..Firebird, which is based on the Russian folktale, and isn't the valiant struggle of Teri Lee to save filk tapes and Concordances from floodwaters in Oregon;>, and Sword of Ice, a collection of short stories, 3 with Van, 3 or so co-written by Misty..enough touch on stuff that we discuss that one wonders if someone has learned what we talk about here on the list;>, some very laughable phrases by Mark Shepard...Savil meeting Starwind...etc etc...both're good...not LHM, but pretty good;> Firemistywisty said: >2)No other gods have manifested, other than Shadow-lover >and we don't know if he/she/it is a God. Well, take a look-see in MPromise...good ol' SL is either A: An Avatar of Kal'enal, or B: An aspect of her. I go in for theory 2, if only because it means i'm naturally more powerful than SL for our Duel since I'm a Thessa-Annointed God....and because of the comment that he was only a messenger. But he has the eyes, guys.. Kenny said: >You know, come to think of it, there is no reason that being an Adept >should be required for gating. After all, adepts can't draw on node power >to create gates (we are told repeated that gates are created from the >mages "personal" energy). Theoretically then, any mage who knows the >spell and has enough personal power should be able to create a gate. Well, I haven't read Winds in ages--did Treyvan ever cast a Gate? I was pretty sure him and Hydona had flown to k'wossname...but maybe not. Right before Savil brings Van to the hawkbrother in Pawn, though, we learn that mages can store energy, like a vessel, but they can only hold so much--maybe Adepts are the only ones who can hold that much? Which would explain why Ancar could cast a Gate when he was a mas--wait, or weas Hulda just holding him back? Anyway, because he had all the blood-energy still around. >It is up to Kory of course. Various gods set their own requirements. 'course it ain't null. I just...um....misplaced it;> Well, I also have another pirestess to annoint one of these days, too... >And Germany wonders why they still get bad press? Germany isn't the only place--it's just as bad down here in Florida--then again,I live like 5 minutes from their world HQ; you could say there's some animosity towards them...the main thing most people have against them is that the buy up a LOT of property, and then don't pay taxes because they're a religion...but them being around really lowers the property value of all of Clearwater...it's really *weird*...they all wear these uniforms and are alllll over the place. And involvement with them SEVERELY lowers your chance of getting a job. >I think that Kory is the current champion of this idea. I will say that >there are both story-internal and external reasons that I feel this might >be on the right track. Kory can give a better run-down of the internal >reasons. The external reasons have to do with my perceptions of Misty's >writing. I won't go into them here (another post, perhaps). Sigh..there you go, getting him started again;> Okay..what facts do we have..um...the Star-Eyed has a consort, we learn that in the indices of OBreakers...Vkandis has a consort..SR, iirc...Star-Eyed is Kal'enal...VKandis' consort is Kalenel, or something...Need's twin sets were "Karanal and Dina, Karenel and Dara" or something along those lines...the two K's positions in Needs religion coincide with 2 aspects of the Star-Eyed, iirc (wof is loaned out right now)....I think there's some more info in SB, but that too is loaned... > If this is true, then it would argue that the Tayledras did not >originate the spell. Perhaps Savil did, but on her own, rather than >getting it from outside. I'm pretty sure the Tayledras didn't have it when Savil and Starwind met--they had to..well..readers of it know how they tested her truthfulness...so possibly someone in Van's time took the Tayledras knowledge of the vrondi to figure out the truth spell and it was only beginning to spread amongst Heralds in Promise. Mish said: >7.)If you want to say sometihng about one of the newer books you need to >put a lot of spaces before and after what you want to say, so that >people that haven't gotten the books yet can skip over that part if tehy >don't want to know anything about the book. Okay, guys. Time to decide: Is SB still in Spoilers? It came out late August, iirc...and..c'mon..really..if you didn't get it over Winter Break, when ARE you going to? I'm bloody well sick of spoiler space....I *guess* we can keep it on till Feb. 1st....but no longer. K? 6 months. No more. Liseth said: >About this Normsly thing.... >Falconsbane didn't have a mother: he stole An'desha's body. When he had a >mother he was called "Ma'ar." Lis? Lis? Um...we know that. It was a joke. Really. Wosshername meant "normally" or something, and so then Esme did Normsly...and someone else did something else--but we always realized that he really didn't. Really. We do;> K|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^/KORENDIL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET\^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|K O| Korendil, Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold, One in |O R| Black, God of Night, Patron Deity of All Things Nocturnal, |R E| Champion, Jester, and Party Coordinator of the Ladies of the |E N| Pink Wand, Terminally Cute Elfin Warrior, Godson of the Lilac |N D| Fairy, Acting Master of Dreams, and Ailurophile. |D IL-+AT+-ICUBED.NET________/NAME THE MIME AND DIE\__________TEN.DEBUCI-+AT+-LI ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1061 **********************************