MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1081 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Who is Tolkin?!?!?! by rozanm-+AT+-juno.com (Cat Person) 2) Re: Um, brief question by mlbermudez-+AT+-CSUPomona.edu 3) Whites/Jails? by ahri-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer) 4) copyrights (I know it's been done to death) by dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (forever waiting) 5) Re: Leaky Gifts by Liseth-+AT+-aol.com 6) copyrights by "Ulf G. Dahlmann" 7) copyright/Tolkien by "Hth." 8) Re: Copyright thread by Brian Bennett 9) heh, in all the excitement, I forgot... by Deniz 10) Re: A question by Mat the Cat in Green 11) Re: copyright/Tolkien by Tensen 12) Re: A Newcomer Asks About A Game He Thought Up... by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 13) Re: A Newcomer Asks About A Game He Thought Up... by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 14) /me is back/ hatebonds/ copyrights/ Jinx High by awand-+AT+-mail.idt.net (Kymberli) 15) punishment / bonds / ML vs RPG by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 16) Y'all vs Yall by Robbie Betts 17) Re RPG, soveriegnty, prayer for friend, accents and language usage, and SOI by John Hagen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:55:29 EST From: rozanm-+AT+-juno.com (Cat Person) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Who is Tolkin?!?!?! Message-ID: <19970129.185605.3902.0.rozanm-+AT+-juno.com> Rowain, I shall try to remain from snickering too much (TINAF). It's just for 'someone who has no life outside of books', that little query demonstrates large holes in your library. Tolkien is the man who wrote the Lord of the Rings series, and the Hobbit. Not to mention a bunch of other stuff. Frequently referred to as the Father of Fantasy as We Know It (tm). Most major fantasy epics (like Tad Williams' memory, sorrow and thorn) are compared to his stuff. He is also considered to be the Master of World-Making, etc. You should run go get those books and read them. And look at the copyright date before you do -- vintage stuff. /-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/ Firemist rozanm-+AT+-juno.com Lore-Mistress of the Cat People Goddess of Made From Scratch Foods She Who is Hip-deep in Kleenex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:20:00 -0700 From: mlbermudez-+AT+-CSUPomona.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Um, brief question Message-ID: >Wow, a brief question coming from me, a miracle!!! ;) > >Anyway, I haven't seen Sword of Ice anywhere in any bookstores, and I have no >idea what it's about. Could someone please take time to explain what it's >about to poor little me? look> And is it any good? Is it a Valdamaran (sp?) book? Automatically, I >think it would be about Starwind, 'cause that's what Savil said she'd called >him, but why would Ms. Lackey write a whole book about him? > Boy, and I said this was a brief question . . . sorry 'bout that! > >I'll always forgive you but never forget you, >Lady Nightshadow aka Shady >Goddess of Forgiveness I don't know where you live, but I see the book all the time here at Southern CA. Basically the book is a collection of short stories about heralds, herald-mages, hawkbrothers, etc. Some of the stories were really good, but there were some that I didn't think belonged in this analogy, nor should have been put in the book in the first place. There was a story about my beloved Vanyel (don't ask me the title because I don't have the book with me presently) where the author made him seem like some guy who couldn't control his feelings over men. Like that was believable. In all three of the MP, MP, MP books he was ALWAYS putting his feelings last. It was so out of character for him. But hey, it's just my opinion. You should read the book for yourself and see if my opinion holds any water. Melissa, healer of animals ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:47:08 EST From: ahri-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Whites/Jails? Message-ID: <19970129.204635.7311.18.Ahri-+AT+-juno.com> Someone was writing something about Whites... I don't know if I remember correctly, but wasn't there a part in one of the books where someone is complaining to himself about filthy Whites, but figures he'd better shut up since he knows that Whites are so dirt-resistant with proper care that they've been accused of having a magic spell set on them? Also, I've been wondering.. is there any sort of 'jail' in Valdemar/other surrounding towns? You see guards, and dungeons I suppose, but what do they do with the people who are guilty of something? Is it always either death sentence or you are innocent, go away? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Blessed be, Ahri-+AT+-Juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:16:15 EST From: dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (forever waiting) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: copyrights (I know it's been done to death) Message-ID: <19970129.201804.3766.0.DyanaLynn-+AT+-juno.com> I just feel that I should add my two cents about Misty's legallity. Like it or not, copyrighted material belongs to the owner of the copyright. The thing i question may be a design or a concept or an actual object. It may also be, in our case, a book. There are things on the Internet that are copyrighted and are not to be redistributed even by e-mail. When people take the copyrighted material of someone else, and use it for their own sake, it is stealing. All personal opinions aside, doing something like that to Misty's material would be (to me) like breaking into her word processor in order to read Owlfight and then publishing a synopsis to the list. As the author and thinker upper of her ideas, she has every right to say what does and does not happen to them. And while I'm on the subject of copyrights, let me give you an example. last semester, someone put on list a piece of writting that was gotten off the Internet. I thought it was cute, and seeing no warning not to, I forwared it to a friend. As it turns out, the peice is copyrighted as it was a winning entrance to a writting contest. Luckily, my friend and I found out in time and did not pass it on to anyone else. Even innocent things such as writting an RPG in your home could have effects you can't fathom. How can we blame someone for not wanting their personal ideas to get changed and sold without their say-so, their okay, and their permision? Kawryathen "I never doubted the teachers, just the lessons they taught. If I couldn't fill my stomach, I'd fill my head, But I never could fill the words that I said." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:57:07 -0500 (EST) From: Liseth-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Leaky Gifts Message-ID: <970129192902_241933218-+AT+-emout14.mail.aol.com> This is for the Eternally Nourished Lee and others who might have been confused with my last post. It sounded all right as I was writing it, but as I reread it I discovered it made no sense whatsoever. I'll try to be clearer this time. When they learn to use their Gifts, people learn to shield. But the only people they are around are other people who already know how to use shields. Unless they have a Gift like Empathy where they have to actively shield out other emotions, they don't pick up the thoughts around them (at least that's the impression I got from AFlight, BTS gave me an entirely different impression). So they may get a little sloppy with shields. Another word that might be used is "leaky." Then along comes a new Gift. I always got the impression that most people (like Kero) get their Gifts gradually. How else can they get them? They don't have them when they are babies and unless there is some trama (like Van and 'Lendel and Talia all had) I don't think they come on suddenly. Why bother to improve shields? Most likely, given my understanding of the situation, a new Gift is not any more likely to pick something up through improper shields than an old improperly shielded Gift. Aimee compared a new Gift to a sunburn. It's a cute (bad word, can't think of a different one) metaphor, but IMHO there is one fatal flaw. Sunburns hurt. Other than Van, I can't think of any Gifts where the coming of the Gift was accompanied by pain due to the coming of the Gift (to distinguish it from the pain of, say, falling into a river). BTW, send no more definitions for "howitzer." I've gotten too many correct ones. As another BTW, I've noticed that I get a great many Re: posts BEFORE I recieve the message they're regarding. Does anyone have any clue how this happens? ************************************************************ Liseth (Liseth-+AT+-aol.com) Goddess of Running Away and Hiding Under Tables First Master of the Guild of Typoists ************************************************************ "Life is easier to take than you'd think; all that is necessary is to accept the impossible, do without the indispensable and bear the intolerable." -Kathleen Norris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 04:31:11 +0100 From: "Ulf G. Dahlmann" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: copyrights Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970130042719.27bfee80-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> At 21:29 29.01.97 GMT, you wrote: >>Does this even make sense? >>****Personally I don't agree with this part of the act since it is in=20 >>the privacy of your home, but then again I'm not sure how I would=20 >>feel if I were Misty......**** > >I dunno... I always felt that if anything I did manage to get published >ended up being copied or copied in part, or even excerpted, I'd be quite >flattered by it. "What, someone liked my work enough to mention it to= their >friends? And even quote it?" =3D) > Hi everyone, I feel that after some lawsuits there is kind of a frenzy here. Well, yes publishing, and that is what is happening on a homepage, the complete lyrics, and therefore in a way a complete piece of work, is definitely an infringement on the copyrights, excerpts however, quoting (if origin of quote / excerpt is published and certain limitations in size etc. are observed) are not necessarily. In Germany for example, as far as I know, you may copy up to seven pages for personal use out of any book without copyright-infringement. If you quote something etc. origin of quote (full quote of title etc.) is usually required. This is what makes scientific reviews, etc. possible. In theatre, if someone doesn't get the rights for presenting the play, sometimes they change the name of the play (from Noises Off to No Sound maybe) place the play in a different setting, rename the characters, change a scene or two, and thereby creating a different show, which does not fall under infringement of using the original play since it is Not the original play. This of course is a walk on the tight rope, so DON'T DO IT, unless you are sure that you have enough loopholes AND a good lawyer. By the way: Not persecuting someone for copyright infringement doesn't null and void your copyrights (after all you could say there was an unwritten agreement). If someone was using a setting or whatever BEFORE the copyright, here copyright becomes void, because it couldn't have been copyrighted in the first place (copyrights and trademarks are entered without checking previous existence, but become invalid if previous existence is proven). Using the area of Valdemar etc. for RPG, well actually I think this would be an interesting topic for a specialised lawyer (sorry, but my father, a patent lawyer, is only a specialist for patents and trademarks, not for copyrights concerning works like this). I quote the original German version of the law that would cover this area and then try a translation: =A725 Urheberrechtsgesetz,=20 Frei Benutzung: Ein selbststaendiges Werk, das in freier Benutzung des Werkes anderer geschaffen worden ist, darf ohne Zustimmung des Urhebers des benutzten Werkes veroeffentlicht und verwertet werden. (...continues with Exceptions like musical parts (melodies etc.), they are a bit different but since they do not apply here, I don't bother to quote) Translation: =A725 Copyright-Law Free Usage: A self-sufficient piece of work, which was produced in free use of another piece of work, may be published and used without the consent of the producer of the used work. (Hope this translation makes any sense) If I understand this law correctly, thinking up an RPG based in Valdemar should be legal, using the name Valdemar etc. in it, could be borderline. Whatever you do, try to get your countries laws on ownership, copyrights etc. Usually you can get it in a good university book store or alike. It is not only helpful in cases like this, but do remember, a Webpage is an ACT OF PUBLISHING, observe all rules please, to stay out of trouble. And the text for the copyright laws, well can't be too expensive, couple of bucks here in Germany, if it isn't even readable online somewhere. The Web of course created zillions of people inexperienced with the laws of publishing. Please be careful. I come from a publishing background, most of you don't. But don't get scared, just be aware. Love you all, ULF P.S. Using the term Herald can in no way be an infringement, since first she would have to proove that you are using one of her inventions/creations. Yet the term Herald has existed for many centuries in the way she uses it (and therefore she cannot have exclusive rights to it). And aren't you using it in its original historical meaning anyway ??? Me however saying that I am Shay'a'chern (*1) could be an infringement if the following statement as a footnote were not there. (*1 Shay'a'chern - Term for gay as used in: Lackey, Mercedes: The Last-Herald-Mage Trilogy. Magics Pawn. New York 1989. Page 81ff) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- Ulf aka Vanyel: vanyel-+AT+-compuserve.com valdemar-+AT+-geocities.com vanyel-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de vanyelulf-+AT+-aol.com vanyel-+AT+-cutey.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2211/ http://members.aol.com/pepverlag2/iglyo/iglyo.html http://members.aol.com/pepverlag/peptop.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:51:25 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: copyright/Tolkien Message-ID: <29JAN97.23605607.0101.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> All right, thank you, Cennydd. I now feel not only more informed, but somewhat consoled. US copyright law does provide for at least some freedom to let the mind roam, even if we can't take it outdoors, and god forbid we were to jot it down. I still think it's annoying, but it no longer strikes me as unethical. To be nitpicky, I don't think it's quite correct/generally "done" anymore to refer to a woman as Mrs. Lackey when her marriage to Mr. Lackey has been dissolved. Now, people can call themselves whatever they like, but more standard usage would be Ms Lackey, or possibly Mrs. Dixon if such is now her legal name (and I don't know whether or not it is). It's all very confusing, I realize, but unless you know that someone specifically prefers a different usage, Ms is usually your best bet (for a woman, obviously; most men probably prefer a different usage ). I find that divorced women are usually more comfortable with Ms than with anything else, though not always. J.R.R. Tolkien is the author of the Lord of the Rings series, which includes *Fellowship of the Ring,* *The Two Towers,* and *The Return of the King.* A prequel, *The Hobbit* is related, but not strictly a part of LotR, and there are various other books compiled from his extant writings, from *The Silmarillion* to bookswith titles like *The Lost Tales of Tolkien* and *J.R.R. Tolkien's Collected Grocery Lists* (kidding). Lord of the Rings, published in the later 1940s, is generally considered the first major modern work of fantasy and credited with opening up fantasy as a genre. Some people (bows to the Lilac Fairy) consider it still to be the premier work of modern fantasy. Tolkien himself was a professor of linguistics at Oxford, and his detailed invented languages are truly somewhat staggering. He died, as I recall, sometime in the late 70s. So there you go. If you're seriously interested in fantasy, you will probably want to read it someday, if for no other reason than it's canon, and you'll continue to hear about it. I find it somewhat dry reading (heresy! heresy!), but rewarding, once you manage to get yourself into it. Again, other people find it without equal. ObMisty: Umm. Misty would make a rotten playwright. Does that count? HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber & Marigold DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:43:19 -0800 From: Brian Bennett To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Copyright thread Message-ID: <32F04307.1D82-+AT+-erinet.com> I just had a quick thought concerning the copyright controversy. I believe you can make a parody of an original work because a parody is a criticism of the work and that's exempted under the "fair use" clause in the U.S. copyright laws. The only thing is a parody must be SIGNIFICANTLY different from the original. In other words a certain percentage of the original material must be altered or changed in some way. If a judge decides that you haven't changed enough of the original material to make your parody a separate work, you get your socks sued off! Personally, I'm not going to take the chance. Misty's lawyer doesn't sound like the kind of person I want to spend time with in a courtroom. ShadowWolf, God of Stupid Chess Moves "Checkmate" Garry Kasparov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 00:07:21 -0500 From: Deniz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: heh, in all the excitement, I forgot... Message-ID: <199701300510.AAA23231-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Well, three guesses as to who just looked at her Birthday file. The first two don't count. That's right... me. Okay, here we go... NO DAY WARNING FOR BENOIT'S BIRTHDAY (JAN. 30th) ONE DAY WARNING FOR JOAN FERGUSON'S BIRTHDAY... she's turning 32 the 31st, and if you don't have enough material to post to the list, you can email her private at joan_ferguson-+AT+-harvard.edu Benoit, on this, thine Birthday, I sheepishly present to you a... special no-calorie, no-guilt pie. It's exactly whatever flavor you happen to be craving for, and it won't do anything bad to your nutrition (in fact, it just happens to have natural vitamins and minerals you don't normally get but need) and there's enough for everyone who wants some. And, if you actually have some *gasp* left over, you can always throw it at the next newbie... I suppose (Ashanti, are you coming out yet? ;>). Enjoy your pie in good health, and may your day be joyous and full of pleasant surprises. )(!&%)&!)(~*__)*$)#&-+AT+- Once again, I find myself in the position of having written fluff with nothing Misty related to say offhand. Oh, boy. What'll I do? I know... Rowain said: >>>My choir would like to preform the song Web of Light from Shadow Stalker. Does anyone know where I can get the permisson to use the song? Also, do I need to specify that I am doing an arangement specifical for our choir?!?!<<< ah-HAH!!!!! I do know that Misty has an e-mail address. It's private, however, and I don't even have it, so unless you happen to already priveleged with that address(don't post it if you have it), you'll be stuck with more mundane methods of communication (i.e.: snail mail). You can write to her C/O any of these people (I got these addresses from the abml-faq.1 file, in case you're wondering): Baen Books DAW Books TOR Books P.O. Box 1403 375 Hudson Street 49 West 24 Street Riverdale, NY 10471 New York, NY 10014 New York, NY 10010 Queen's Own Firebird Music High Flight PO Box 132 P.O. Box 14785 P.O. Box 8309 Shiloh, NJ 08353 Portland, OR 97214 Tulsa, OK 74101-8309 She has requested that no fan stories be mailed to her, please. There you go, Rowain... don't forget the most important Mercedes Lackey part. In fact, this works for any author. Just write their name and send it c/o their publisher. The mail will get to them. Nobody's guaranteeing responses, though... :) love, Deniz Sarikaya, High Priestess of |"Perhaps today IS a good to die!"-- Worf Procrastination, Holy Custodian of|"You told him about the statue?" -- Riker the B-Day List, Dame of the OoAM, |"I'm a doctor, not a doorstop." -- EMH and Demon of Deceitful Aliases. |"Definitely not Swedish." -- Lily >dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA< >freakola-+AT+-geocities.com< >http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:04:18 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: A question Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Steve Mattila wrote: > My choir would like to preform the song Web of Light from Shadow Stalker. > Does anyone know where I can get the permisson to use the song? Also, > do I need to specify that I am doing an arangement specifical for our > choir?!?! On a side note, my choir director loved the Web of Light song > so much that if I can get permission, we are going to preform it at > regions, state, and nationals!!!! *evil, nasty grin* I get to go on a > cruze for cchoir to be ranked for nationals. Is anyone else going on the > Big Red Boat in April? Well, no time for a full braid right now, but I'll answer this. One possible way to find out if it's okay is to mail the publisher, Firebird Arts and Music. They do have an email addy, namely firebird-+AT+-usa.net , IIRC. They may be a way to find out if it's okay or not. (Hey, the message the lawyer sent me way back when about the filk was CC'd to Terri Lee there anyway....) Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Hey diddle-dee, answer me this riddle, Adept, God of Procrastination | hey diddle-do, tell me what you will. Heathen #149, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | Dance all day with the Cat and the mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | Fiddle. Come and lay with the Heather http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | on the hill" --- Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:12:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Tensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: copyright/Tolkien Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Hth. wrote: > Lord of the Rings, published in the later 1940s, is generally considered > the first major modern work of fantasy and credited with opening up > fantasy as a genre. Some people (bows to the Lilac Fairy) consider it > still to be the premier work of modern fantasy. Tolkien himself was a > professor of linguistics at Oxford, and his detailed invented languages > are truly somewhat staggering. He died, as I recall, sometime in the > late 70s. Linguistics?!? Thats for sure. I think the dictionary of elven terminology he came up with is larger than some of the modern language dictionaries. > So there you go. If you're seriously interested in fantasy, you will > probably want to read it someday, if for no other reason than it's > canon, and you'll continue to hear about it. I find it somewhat dry > reading (heresy! heresy!), but rewarding, once you manage to get > yourself into it. Again, other people find it without equal. > I agree with you in that it is dry reading. It has very good storyline. But overly done detail as in comparision to what we are used to currently. What he detailed of his world in a single book, Misty hasn't even touched 1/3 of in all of her Valdemar stories. Tensen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:33:58 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: A Newcomer Asks About A Game He Thought Up... Message-ID: <9701300934.AA18967-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> Tensen wrote: > Misty's lyrics from the books are covered by the same copyright of the > book the are printed in. If they allow the reprinting of the lyrics to be > printed, it violates their hold on the copyright of the book itself. Not quite - only trademarks have to be defended; Copyright doesn't. Knowingly ignore somebody using your trademarks and you may lose them; ignore somebody violating copyright and all that happens is that the damages go up when you finally stomp on them.... Copyright lasts for life+50 (or maybe more, these days) whatever happens. -- _|_ Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) / | Hemel Hempstead, UK jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \_|_ www.selune.demon.co.uk (soon) \__/ ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:56:38 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: A Newcomer Asks About A Game He Thought Up... Message-ID: <9701300956.AA19064-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > I think the impression I'm getting here, is that Mrs. Lackey (and I'm going > to keep calling her that for a number of reasons) has gone so far as to > copyright every single idea she ever thought up about Valdemar and such... > and as such, using any of those ideas requires her express permission Correct; the main commercial reason behind this is to avoid potential problems if a new story happens to resemble a fan story idea. This has caused legal problems in the past for MZB. > (which, as I understand, is rarely given)... As I understand it, there's a release / guideline procedure for fan fiction, and it looks like a straightforward process. MUDs and RPGs are a different thing - harder to control, for one thing - It's easy to envisage a situation where B plays in A's group, B talks to C, C knows Misty, a new story resembles something in the campaign, and A or B has a fit of greed and starts waving lawyers around.... Maybe not *likely* but quite *possible*; and if that could effectively wipe out months of *my* work by holding it up and/or eating the results in lawyers fees, then I wouldn't want to risk it either. -- _|_ Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) / | Hemel Hempstead, UK jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \_|_ www.selune.demon.co.uk (soon) \__/ ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:07:49 -0500 From: awand-+AT+-mail.idt.net (Kymberli) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: /me is back/ hatebonds/ copyrights/ Jinx High Message-ID: *apologetic look* heya gang. I'm back :) now that a few tangled knots have been straightened out. Nightdancer, and anyone else on the bondbird list that I may or may not have offended, you have once again my sincere apologies. So then. Heya! :) Aimee Dowd wrote: >> David Tippytoes asked, >> OBMisty: We've heard of Lovebonds, Lifebonds, and Soulbonds. What about >> negative bonds? Are there Hatebonds? all right for teh git fo tyops! *grin* first things first, my lord, I owe thee a tithe fer sure, since 'twas by your will that I mistyped the ubsubscribe command to listproc. (and thusly was I saved *wan smile*) Em and the rest of you that were supportive of me when I was upset, thank you all so much. I believe that yes, there are negative bonds - of course there are. The interesting part, however, comes in when we look at what, exactly, we mean by a hatebond. anger? fear? calling bloodfeud? the wish to evoke pain without consent on the part of the victim? or did you want textevd from _Oathbound_ (or was it _Oathbreakers_?), where Kethry says that mages from White Winds are encouraged to form positive bonds? "the bond of parent to child, the oath of she'endra, those are all positive bonds" is how my poor memory would have it start :) Evidently Kethry's power is fed by emotions like anger, fright, rage, and the like, too. A temporary strong boost, like a sprint, according to Misty, but it leaves one quite drained when it runs out. Not to get up anyone's scholarly nose but BF Skinner says much the same about behaviorism and punishment. To create a stimulus so strong as to cause an aversive reaction will cause avoidance of the object(s) in question, but the energy simply gets redirected elsewhere later, for the person the reaction is inflicted upon. It's natural, and it works, but it doesn't seem to be as effective. Aimee wrote: >> So. I guess that the main difference between the two kinds of bond is >> that lifebonds occur naturally and spontaneously, while Falconsbane's type of >> bond must be artificially constructed. I always did wonder about that (::laugh:: I know, I know, I'll shut up soon) If lifebonds are really marriages of the soul, how mature do we have to be in order to be considered to have a soul? are we born with one? if the latter case, however unlikely it might be, you might see the person you need more than food and water when you were 8 years old, for all we know. The implications are boggling, so much so that I'd *much* rather think they aren't as spontaneous as they appear; and 'natural' is a relative term. We feel compelled to some people for their grotesqueness, others because they seem special in their sparkling courage and brightness. So maybe hatebonds could be as natural as lovebonds, but less lasting? Misty also seems a tad bent on saying that the gods sanction lovebonds, lifebonds, soulbonds, etc. It's only in the background that we hear about gods like the Cold One (WFate) that have their devotees become assassins, and feed off pain and death energy. This would appear to be what Thalkarsh, and other creatures of the Abyssmal Plane, were/are after. The fanatics who kill themselves in war to rise to the right hand of their god know that it gives them ~some~ sort of energy; now saying that the gods sanction this overtly is a different point I'm not going to touch, for fear of having my head ripped off by enraged listmembers. ;) (BTW, the reason we probaby don't hear about it much is that if we have too much of that, one of the characters ends up killing the other *tenatative grin*) Okay now back to the differences between negative bonds and hatebonds Krebian had destroyed the channels of pleasure in the girl he used, in the village, so it's evidently rather tricky to get the right balance of pain and still be usable. The problem with blood path magic, is, of course, the letting go of life and the emtions which prompt it are still, nonetheless, negative, even in the case of the Shin'a'in that sacrifices himself for the sake of his people. I wouldn't call this a hatebond. Negative bond, yes, hatebond, no. It's a somewhat tricky concept, I suppose, if you think about it. Freud says we have a Thanatos instinct that wants to destroy, and is on par with the Eros instinct that wants to create pleasure. For the main part, though, I think that negative bonds serve to turn us away from the stimulus so that we observe the correct behavior in reinforcement. Hatebonds are different. The word hate implies obsesssion already. Oathbreaker's spell uses that energy to deflect itself right back onto itself. Kethry uses the energy from the siphoned anger of Idra's Sunhawks to feed the spells, and IIRC, she feels the bond of fury rising up in all of them collectively, tying every one of them together. Hmmm. The term "dance of death" where the combatants are locked in an intense concentration, fueled by fear and possibly hatred, anger, looks like it implies a bond, as well. The Shin'a'in Swordsworn's right to bloodfeud seems a hatebond, too. It ties the intended victim to the destroyer. And yet. And yet. There doesn't seem to be much backlash when Misty writes about her hatebonds. I know when I get very angry, personally, I feel like someone's tearing a hole in my life, and filling it with something much more powerful than I would be. Then, when the liquid heat of all of it passes, I feel very much if I've been drained of a sizable chunk of energy (does this make her characters cardboard?) OTOH, we see that some of them do have backlash. They deal with it by wanting more. Oh, wait, before I forget, Deniz, I read your post about consent in the S&M community, and I have to say, it was very thoughtful, :) and I'd tend to agree that we can't judge it evil right off the bat. Dominance games have always been played - wait, someone stop me before I stick my foot in my mouth, is S&M a dominance thing? - and we don't judge those as good or evil first. Even courage is a balance of suicidal foolhardiness and cowardice. Back to the topic. *grin* The last part and perhaps most important component of hate is fear. We all know a cornered creature feels the predator's moves like a part of its own. For a moment, the two are extensions of each other... *glancing at p437 WFate* goodness, isn't it frightening that Vanyel needed Tylendel more than food and water? because apparently that's what it takes in order to get a lifebond, and to use that lifebond to make the two into one. Half of a heart and a wasted body left for Vanyel, nothing to fill the endless hunger, an incredible kind of strength and courage that had to have come from inside, that he didn't go insane and corrupt trying to use enough people to fill even some of it. I know this account is confused, because I was writing it in between doing other things and losing my train of thought between paragraphs (gee, ya think? *grin*) but what does everyone else have to say? -*-*-*-*-*-*- Re: copyrights I know this may sound like an insane thing to say to most of you, but I completely agree with Misty. It is her right and her privelege to protect material that she writes. There is a difference between allowing people to criticize material that you carved out of yourself and allowing those same people to actually change the statue you sculpted. No matter what people *say* or criticize about, the statue is still "yours" and has your ideas in it. When you listen to what people have to say, they're offering, hopefully politely, what they think and how they feel, some bit of ~them~selves. No author is going to refuse that, other than out of shyness. When, OTOH, they press their hands forward and try to reshape what is yours, it's rather like they're trying to change some part of yourself. That is what roleplaying will lead to, given enough time. It's inevitable. It's the great part of writing. Some authors will let some of that happen and get carried into the flow of guiding fingers. Some authors feel more as if it were an invasion, in which case, who are we, who were offered a glimpse into their private lives, to demand yet more of them? Yes, you may argue that you *must* listen to your teachers. I say no. The choice to listen is your own, and the ability to learn is strictly on an individual basis. How can we ever have any sort of freedom at all, how can we encourage it, if we force our opinions on minds that aren't willing and aren't ready? Besides which, many times, the author really does know better. If I'd listened to every English teacher that had told me not to start my sentences with the word "And" or "But" I'd probably have given up in frustration and have been falling apart taking IBH Economics right now. In cases where the author does *not* know better, (in our own opinions) then that's their own loss and not really anyone else's business. Misty's not a child; she already knows what she wants. There's not much we can do other than bitch about it, but we can respect her decision... inspired not only from common courtesy, but because if she gets too much pressure from too-insistent fans, it'll show up in her books and she'll be explaining/ justifying why she does what she does every step of the way (not that I think her recent material has been worth the effort *sheeps away and begs Liseth's protection*) Although, like or dislike, Misty is not going to change her mind based on the opinions of people she'll never see :) -*-*-*-*-*-*- Heather wrote: >And I just don't think the lectures are as interesting to read as >self-discovery through action would be. What was the point, really, of >Diana sitting down and telling us all five points of her personal code >of ethics? *snip* I end up feeling a little bit patronized (sometimes >more than a little bit) when we get the Speech, whether it's "You >shouldn't hurt people for your own pleasure; that's wrong," or "practice >safe sex, kids!" (no kidding, there's a safe sex speech in Jinx High for >no apparent reason). What am I, watching Barney? I'm an adult, for >crying out loud. ::sighs, silently agrees, and proceeds to defend Misty to herself:: But, OTOH, it could just be the target audience thing again. A lot of authors aim their books to younger audiences and feel they have to talk down to them. (Hell, sometimes I think *I* have to spell things out for some of the people I know) Since Di Tregarde is technically supposed to be Occult horror (or something) which is something that a certain type of people generally gravitate towards, perhaps she wasn't writing it for us, the way we're discussing it. Still, what if Misty were writing an introduction of sorts? If she came at it again from the perspective of one of the students in the class, that Di had lectured, and that student then proceded to apply what she had brushed on? *hopeful look* Maybe a book on Tannim? please? *gryn* >I feel like there's a subtext of "And if *you* >would just listen to your wise elders, we'd fix your lives for you, too. >Otherwise, heaven knows *how* you'll end up." *grin* everyone's the wise dude of the day. Bother, forget it if I was going to say something here, let's talk about classrooms. :) Isn't it incredibly annoying when you have to face front in order to see the teacher? That happens in every class except for English, where we're all arranged in a rouch oval, so that we can see each other, and the teacher's at one end of the oval, not the center. *giggle* You didn't think I actually had a point, did you? Sunlight to thy hearts, wingsibs! Your Cheerful Kimmie the Pooh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 14:38:53 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: punishment / bonds / ML vs RPG Message-ID: <9701301338.AA04699-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Greetings, Ahri wrote: > Also, I've been wondering.. is there any sort of 'jail' in > Valdemar/other surrounding towns? You see guards, and dungeons I suppose, > but what do they do with the people who are guilty of something? Is it > always either death sentence or you are innocent, go away? Is there a death penalty in Valdemar? There's some implication that, after Talia has scrambled the brains of the rapist in Arrows, he'll have to face something or other if he ever realises what he did, and frees himself from Talis's compulsion. The something or other is not, I think, defined. There's a whole host of anti-social behaviour that, in western worlds, does not warrant death, (by the standards of the host country. Nothing warrants death, IMO. We have in the UK a case from the 1950's now being referred back to the courts, of a guy who was hanged. It appears that he was probably innocent. Imagine the sense of total betrayal that guy (and all the others that didn't do it) must have felt. He didn't do it, but his country decides to hang him, and his God lets 'em. Feh) I remember thinking when I first read that, that someone was going to have to look after this guy - feed him, find him somewhere to sleep, clothe him - cos now our Talia's finished with him, he's a mindless idiot. The surviving step daughter is still going to see him around, admittedly in a somewhat diminished state, but present in her life. And if they don't care for him, then he starves or freezes to death - very humane. Hmmmm - maybe Talia's solution wasn't so great after all. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Negative bonds - The only one I can think of where someone hated and loved at the same time was the bond Nyara had with Thingy - whatsisface, erm,... .... you know, the cat-man. Well she saw him for what he was, wanted to escape, hated him, and yet, when he called, she went, and at some level, she loved him. At a lesser level I think it can exist between abuser and abused. Yes there are things done that are wrong, and logically point to the abuser being a sick warped person, and yet there are aspects to that person that the abused wants and loves. Some people never escape from relationships like this - for a multitude of complex reasons - but one of them can be that part of you needs/wants your abuser. I should point out that I have never been an abuser nor abused - my parents filled me with their love and pride, my menfolk have been decent and caring, life has treated me well. I can only speak as an observer - I had a school friend whose boyfriend hit her, and never understood why she kept going back to get hit again, I've sheltered a close friend when she finally found the courage to leave the husband who hit her and treated her like dirt, and I've nursed a lot of abused babies, with parents who seemed to love them, but couldn't love them enough to stop taking street drugs and turning their child into a junkie before it was born. Pouring Methadone into a 2 day old baby that's woken screaming with terror from a nightmare it can never understand gives you a .......... strong opinion, shall I say, on the moral rights and wrongs of drug taking. Oops - danged soap boxes - sneak up behind you, and before you know it, there you are, standing on 'em. What I'm ineffectively trying to say is that I believe in the existence of negative bonds - as tight as life-bonds, but ultimately destructive to both parties. However, the sort I believe in don't seem to exist in Lackey-land. Hey hoh - a brief thought on ML and RP games - maybe she can't stand RPG, loathes the idea of MUDs MUSHs MOOCHes MUCKLES and any other M that may or may not exist. Maybe that's why? I must say, watching a daft spoof on sword 'n slash fantasy, "My trusty blade Vxyzthrfsth will cleave you sire!", has spoilt reading books with named swords in - even Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword, a book I love, has a (to me now) wince making scene, with the hero talking about his sword Kamchtkyn or some such. Maybe ML can't bear the thought of someone making her world appear ridiculous in her eyes? Just a thought, ciao ciao, Esmeralda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:42:31 -0500 From: Robbie Betts To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Y'all vs Yall Message-ID: Concerning this - has anyone ever thought that it might be a proofer's error i.e., consistency throughout a document, without thinking about whether it was a singular or a plural yall? I know that when I proof, I insist on consistency throughout documents i.e., headings must all be the same way for main, side, centered, etc. or that counselling (British spelling) used throughout vice counseling (American spelling). I don't care which one is used in the document, but it must be the same throughout. (Although I would tend to agree that yall would be the singular you and y'all would be the plural you, and hope that I would "catch it" and know the difference.) Robbie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:22:11 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re RPG, soveriegnty, prayer for friend, accents and language usage, and SOI Message-ID: <32F0AE82.3231-+AT+-snet.net> Iona, RPG in any shape or form is not allowed by Myste's lawyers. They feel it would seriously deprive her of income because of copywright law. Okay, on to the soveriegnty question. Oy. I believe that in AotQ, it is stated that it is verbotten (sp?) by law to pray for the victory of Valdemar in times of war. If you consent to live in Valdemar, you must agree to obey all the laws of Valdemar, including telling all the children about Companions Choice. The Holderkin never told Talia, she was totally freaked about being Chosen by Rolan, and a law was passed by the Queen and Council enabling Heralds with the Mindspeaking Gift to go into the Holds and make sure all children know this. Helps get rid of the troublemakers. And Talia was considered a troublemaker by her Father's First Wife. Yes, Peony. I will certainly keep your friend in my thoughts and prayers. Re accents, language usage etc. Having trained as an actress, I can and do fall quite easily into using various accents. When my younger sister and I get together, we start using the southern San Juaquin (sp?) Valley accent we grew up with in Bakersfield. It drives my husband totally insane (he finds it excessively irritating). If I am around Long Islanders with the fake Brit accent I use that. If I'm around Long Islanders with the Long Island accent I use that. Put me among Germans, I get confused by their regional accents. And having relatives from Oklahoma I can and do use an Okie accent from time to time. My language usage varies from accent to accent. S O I S P O I L E R Deniz, my SOI is up stairs ... oops, no can find. I believe that they mean that the Rite of Flames is being used in a corrupt manner. Therefore, the life ending of children with the mind gift of Mind Speaking (or maybe with any of the Mind Gifts other than Mage Gift) is evil. Lady Sara, LIG and Dryad Extraordinaire ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1081 **********************************