MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1082 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Y'all vs Yall by "Cindy Meeks" 2) Re: Error Condition Re: Re: Who is Tolkin?!?!?! by "Cindy Meeks" 3) Re: Error Condition Re: Re: More Copyright stuff (legalese ahead) by "Cindy Meeks" 4) Re: Tolkien/ Poll! by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 5) Whites/Gifts/def. of Herald/philosophy grumbles/Mournedealth in by "Emily the invisible" 6) Wow, a totally on-topic post! (well, Misty and mistylist stuff anyway) by Mat the Cat in Green 7) Re: Whites/Gifts/def. of Herald/philosophy by "Ulf G. Dahlmann" 8) Re: Whites/Gifts/def. of Herald/philosophy grumbles/Mournedealth in by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 9) Gifts/Tolkien/hatebonds/death penalty by Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:42:58 -0600 From: "Cindy Meeks" To: Subject: Re: Y'all vs Yall Message-ID: <199701301742.LAA22220-+AT+-smtp.gte.net> ---------- > From: Robbie Betts Although I would > tend to agree that yall would be the singular you > and y'all would be the plural you, and hope that I > would "catch it" and know the difference.) > > Robbie Well, I'm from Texas and I've never heard of "yall" either singular or plural... Y'all is plural it is the contraction of you and all. For what it's worth... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:46:02 -0600 From: "Cindy Meeks" To: Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Re: Who is Tolkin?!?!?! Message-ID: <199701301742.LAA22224-+AT+-smtp.gte.net> > From: Steve Mattila > Subject: Who is Tolkin?!?!?! > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 6:15 PM > > I have a very stupid question, Who is Tolkin!?!?!?!?! > -Rowain > ---------- > Rowain, > > (I look at you very normally.. not as if you have grown a new head and two > eyes) Could you possibly be referring to J.R.R. Tolkien? The author of > the Hobbit books? If you haven't read them, I highly recommend them. > There aren't very many in the series. (Scratching my head) The Hobbit, > Lord of the Rings, Return of the King and Silmarillion... I think I'm > missing one but... I'm sure if I'm wrong, I'll be corrected. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:48:02 -0600 From: "Cindy Meeks" To: Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Re: More Copyright stuff (legalese ahead) Message-ID: <199701301742.LAA22228-+AT+-smtp.gte.net> > > From: Ken Hyde >> Subject: More Copyright stuff (legalese ahead) > > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 5:37 PM > > > > Since this is becoming such a hot topic, I went out and did a little > > research (you gotta love the web). Hooraaaayyyyy!!! Well put and well said! (at least that's my $0.02 worth!) Rune ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:53:55 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tolkien/ Poll! Message-ID: Tensen wrote: > > >On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Hth. wrote: > >> canon, and you'll continue to hear about it. I find it somewhat dry >> reading (heresy! heresy!), but rewarding, once you manage to get >> yourself into it. Again, other people find it without equal. >> > >I agree with you in that it is dry reading. It has very good storyline. >But overly done detail as in comparision to what we are used to >currently. What he detailed of his world in a single book, Misty hasn't >even touched 1/3 of in all of her Valdemar stories. Of course some of us *like* the detail... I remember correcting a friend about a detail in the Sillmarillon back when it first came out. He was amazed because he knew I hadn't read it yet (waiting for the pb) and was going from the appendices in the back of Return of the King!!!!!<-yep A thought for a list survey occurs to me, mail me personally at davidt-+AT+-cet.com and let me know which of these catagories you fall into; A) loved LotR, loved the Empire Stuff in Storms. B) hated LotR, hated the Empire Stuff in Storms. C) loved LotR, hated the Empire Stuff in Storms. D) hated LotR, loved the Empire Stuff in Storms. I'm trying to see if a like/dislike for details is a common factor here. (A & B) or not (C & D) Obviously you have to have read both to answer and please no wishy-washy, a mild dislike counts as hate for this purpose! I'll total up the responses I get by February 9th and post the results (if any) before Lent. David Tiffany, Log of Typolls > > > Tensen > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:27:02 +0000 From: "Emily the invisible" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Whites/Gifts/def. of Herald/philosophy grumbles/Mournedealth in Message-ID: <199701310026.QAA15284-+AT+-geocities.com> Ahri said: > Someone was writing something about Whites... I don't know if I remember > correctly, but wasn't there a part in one of the books where someone is > complaining to himself about filthy Whites, but figures he'd better shut > up since he knows that Whites are so dirt-resistant with proper care that > they've been accused of having a magic spell set on them? You're thinking of Vanyel, who put his Whites through abuse that no garmet should have to put up with. No wonder they got dirty! Me, I can't keep white clothes clean to save my soul (castor oil just won't come out). Liseth said: > So they may get a little sloppy with shields. Another word > that might be used is "leaky." OK, I follow you so far... And it kind of makes sense if you assume that non-Mindspeakers don't broadcast their every little thought to all and sundry (I rather think that they _do_, but that's another arguement). She continues: > Then along comes a new Gift. I always got the impression that most people > (like Kero) get their Gifts gradually. How else can they get them? They > don't have them when they are babies and unless there is some trama (like Van > and 'Lendel and Talia all had) I don't think they come on suddenly. Whyever not? Even if they _don't_ come on suddenly, the person still has to deal with suddenly having a new sense (possibly one as demanding as vision, maybe only as demanding as smell, but either way, it's no picnic). Your brain has a priority listing for what it pays attention too. If nothing else, that priority list would be all screwed up. It would not be easy to get your brain working again, and never again would it work "properly". Trust me, every time I redo something in my brain, I get a major penalty in an area I hadn't even considered in the redesign... Liseth also said: > BTW, send no more definitions for "howitzer." I've gotten too many correct > ones. Hadn't you expected that? We all read like maniacs by the rest of the world's definition so you'd have to look really hard to find a word that we don't know. Ulf said: > P.S. Using the term Herald can in no way be an infringement, since first she > would have to proove that you are using one of her inventions/creations. Yet > the term Herald has existed for many centuries in the way she uses it (and > therefore she cannot have exclusive rights to it). And aren't you using it > in its original historical meaning anyway ??? Nope. The original historical meaning (which I'm sure six people have already mentioned) was the person who announces things for the king or another noble. A herald had to know all about coats of arms and the rules for blazoning them (reading them off in such a way that another herald who couldn't see the arms could draw them correctly). A Valdemaren Herald (note the capitalization) is something along the lines of a justice of the peace/ King's representative/ warleader all at once. Totally different jobs altogether. She has changed the definition considerably and therefore her usage could be copyrightable (I'm no expert, but if Dad can try to copyright the names of his kits, she should be able to copyright the term Herald when used with her particular definition). While I'm talking about definitions... In Philosophy, the prof gave us a worksheet on a priori and a posteriori arguements (side note: the man is incapable of pronouncing a posteriori and it was driving me crazy). Here's a sample: All cardinals are red. We were supposed to say whether or not the statement was true and identify the kind of arguement... It's an obviously false statement. But it is also astoundingly imprecise. Is the statement refering to cardinals of the Catholic Church or is it refering to the bird? No matter which one it refers to, the statement is false (even if it refers to the political views of Catholic cardinals). But I can easily imagine a great deal of confusion (esp for someone who is not completely fluent in English). He had several other statements which were similarly confusing. I think he is unfamiliar with people who depend on context only to determine the meaning of a word (sure I know the common meaning of the word cardinal, but how can I be sure which definition is wanted from that lone sentance? Both sorts are associated with the color red, and neither one is always all red). He's supposed to be teaching me Philosophy. Instead I'm getting a lesson in how small the common English vocabulary is. Yuck. I thought that college was supposed to stretch one's mind (believe me, it is, just not in the humanities). I'm also happy cause I got a package from home. Now I won't be cold and blue anymore (I hope...)! This is kinda long, but I think I need more Misty content. A-ha! s p o i l e r s p a c e I was looking thru SoI, and noticed that most of the stories didn't grab me to stop email and start reading. Pity. Hmm. Did anyone else find it interesting that we got another look at the Blue and Green factions of Mournedealth? The more I look at what "The Salamander" and the sections in OBound, the more those factions sound like the ones in Imperial Rome or the Guelphs and the Ghibbelines of Florence (I think it's Florence, but it might be one of the other northern Italian cities. Does anyone remember where Dante came from?). Is Mournedealth possibly meant as an Italian analogue? d i g e s t s p a c e Emily the invisible, who thinks that anyone who gets thru this braid deserves a medal. Dame of the OAM http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/7726 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:35:55 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Wow, a totally on-topic post! (well, Misty and mistylist stuff anyway) Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Ken Hyde wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Mat the Cat in Green wrote: > > > IIRC, this *is* in the FAQ. Am I right guys? > > Just a quick word to say that, no, it isn't in the FAQ. It is in Auntie > Mel's Rules of Thumb, which are not available on the web, as far as I can > tell. Just a note here. I mentioned this to Cen, but of course, forgot to send it to the list as well. The Rules of Thumb are, in fact, available on the web. On Auntie Mel's list page, in fact. The URL is http://www.herald.co.uk/local_info/rules_thumb.html ==================================================================================== On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Tensen wrote: > Misty's lyrics from the books are covered by the same copyright of the > book the are printed in. If they allow the reprinting of the lyrics to be > printed, it violates their hold on the copyright of the book itself. Well, they weren't all the ones that are printed in the books actually. But they're copywrited all the same. I was thinking at the time that the copyright info I had at the top made it okay. I know now that it's not. :) ============================================================================= Kory said: > Obmisty: Uhm...okay. From a friend (who I got addicted to misty back in the > fall; he's on Fury right now, though he only read the first Gryphon)...Why > aren't there any Ultra-Adepts anymore, like Ma'ar or Urtho? My response was > that magic changed, but in retrospect, doesn't SB give the impression that > there was *less* magical energy back then? My impression from Falconsbane, is that during the Mage Wars, there was quite a bit more power available. Falconsbane complains to himself at one point when he's thinking about Ma'ar that there is so much less power about than there was before. No texevd, as me-+AT+-work-+AT+-school, books-+AT+-home. :) =================================================================================== On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 mlbermudez-+AT+-CSUPomona.edu (Melissa) wrote: re: SoI > have been put in the book in the first place. There was a story about my > beloved Vanyel (don't ask me the title because I don't have the book with > me presently) where the author made him seem like some guy who couldn't > control his feelings over men. Like that was believable. In all three of > the MP, MP, MP books he was ALWAYS putting his feelings last. It was so > out of character for him. But hey, it's just my opinion. You should read > the book for yourself and see if my opinion holds any water. The ever popular, "I'm shay'a'chern. I can't control it sometimes." line. Hmph. As I said on the LotPW list: "Excuse me?" What, straight guys have some miraculous power of controlling horniness that gay guts don't? Wow, you learn something new every day. The scary thing is that it was a gay guy, Mark Shepard who wrote it. Scary. Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Hey diddle-dee, answer me this riddle, Adept, God of Procrastination | hey diddle-do, tell me what you will. Heathen #149, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | Dance all day with the Cat and the mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | Fiddle. Come and lay with the Heather http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | on the hill" --- Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:18:29 +0100 From: "Ulf G. Dahlmann" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Whites/Gifts/def. of Herald/philosophy Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970131031437.0af749e4-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> > >Ulf said: >> P.S. Using the term Herald can in no way be an infringement, since first she >> would have to proove that you are using one of her inventions/creations. Yet >> the term Herald has existed for many centuries in the way she uses it (and >> therefore she cannot have exclusive rights to it). And aren't you using it >> in its original historical meaning anyway ??? >Nope. The original historical meaning (which I'm sure six people have >already mentioned) was the person who announces things for the king >or another noble. A herald had to know all about coats of arms and >the rules for blazoning them (reading them off in such a way that >another herald who couldn't see the arms could draw them correctly). >A Valdemaren Herald (note the capitalization) is something along the >lines of a justice of the peace/ King's representative/ warleader all >at once. Totally different jobs altogether. She has changed the >definition considerably and therefore her usage could be >copyrightable In some ways you are right, in others, well, there are more meanings than just the proclaiming / coat of arms part, I quote the Websters Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary: 1. (formerly) a royal or official messenger, esp. one representing a monarch in an ambassadorial capacity during wartime. 2. a person or thing that precedes or comes before; forerunner; harbinger. 3. a person or thing that proclaims or announces 4. (in the middle Ages) an officer who arranged tournaments and other functions, announced challenges, marshaled combatants, etc. and to regulate the use of armorial bearings. 5. an official intermediate in rank between king-of-arms and a pursuivant, in the Herald's College in England or the Herald's Office in Scotland 6. and 7. -- left out because they are about the transitive verb As you can see, I do my research before I start babbling. And I personally don't see that much of a difference in the meaning between a herald (acc. to this dictionary) and a Valdemaren Herald. Or do I misunderstand something because I am not a native speaker? As much as I love Misty's books, I hate false or incomplete information, especially when it scares people away from the things they love the most. Ulf ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- Ulf aka Vanyel: vanyel-+AT+-compuserve.com valdemar-+AT+-geocities.com vanyel-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de vanyelulf-+AT+-aol.com vanyel-+AT+-cutey.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2211/ http://members.aol.com/pepverlag2/iglyo/iglyo.html http://members.aol.com/pepverlag/peptop.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:33:21 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Whites/Gifts/def. of Herald/philosophy grumbles/Mournedealth in Message-ID: "Emily the invisible" wrote: >While I'm talking about definitions... >In Philosophy, the prof gave us a worksheet on a priori and a >posteriori arguements (side note: the man is incapable of pronouncing >a posteriori and it was driving me crazy). Here's a sample: > > All cardinals are red. > >We were supposed to say whether or not the statement was true and >identify the kind of arguement... It's an obviously false statement. >But it is also astoundingly imprecise. Is the statement refering to >cardinals of the Catholic Church or is it refering to the bird? No What about cardinal principles? Or perhaps cardinal numbers? (gee, this is fun. Makes me remember when I liked school!) OBMisty: What kind of crops do they raise in Valdemar? It seems we hear some about animal husbandry (the great sheep debate) but is it wheat country or corn(maize) or even barley(corn)? I kinda doubt they raise rice... David Tiffany, god of Typhoes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:13:16 -0500 (EST) From: Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Gifts/Tolkien/hatebonds/death penalty Message-ID: <970131041313_-2112349480-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> Liseth said: >>I always got the impression that most people (like Kero) get their Gifts gradually. How else can they get them? They don't have them when they are babies and unless there is some trama (like Van and 'Lendel and Talia all had) I don't think they come on suddenly.<< I always compared waking Gifts with getting your period for the first time. Its a little shocking, usually uncomfortable, and generally messy. (sorry to gross out the unusually squeamish--facts of life) And the when of it is applicable too. Some girls start early and some late, but it all has to do with when your body is ready. So, I would guess Gifts start up (baring shocks like Van & Talia & Lendel) the same way. The mind reaches a certain maturity and wham! ******* Tenson wrote: >>I agree with you in that it is dry reading. It has very good storyline. But overly done detail as in comparision to what we are used to currently.<< But you have to consider the era in which Tolkien wrote. Have any of you read other popular fiction from that era? Think of _Gone with the Wind_ guys. (Wordy, unrealistic, and down right maudlin!) Or novels by F Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway. They are all written in a much more stilted style than today. I guess if you've suffered through enough centuries of writing style(Can we say BA in English?), you get to be a little more tolerant. Want to read something verbose and pithy? Try Ben Franklin's Autobiography. ******* Kimmie the Pooh wrote lots, so I have lots of responses 1) >>If lifebonds are really marriages of the soul, how mature do we have to be in order to be considered to have a soul?<< Eek! That's a dangerous question. Are we talking real world or Misty's world? If real world, I hold the opinion that the human gains the soul at the moment of conception. How quickly the soul matures is another matter entirely--and depends upon the person. 2)>>even in the case of the Shin'a'in that sacrifices himself for the sake of his people. I wouldn't call this a hatebond. Negative bond, yes, hatebond, no.<< I wouldn't call sacrifice of self for the greater good of others(especially if they were kin or friends as in this case) negative. In fact, selfless giving is a very positive thing. It raises you out of the concern for self, into the larger world of concern for all. But that just maybe a Christian point of view. We're a little sold on sacrifice :) 3)>>There doesn't seem to be much backlash when Misty writes about her hatebonds.<< Well, most of the ones you've mentioned I wouldn't really call hate-bonds. In the case of Idra's Sunhawks, it was more anger and outrage than hate. Definitely negative but justifiably so. Hate is a nasty, smouldering emotion that ties the hater to the hated. It does more harm to those who hate than to those who are hated. I think if you look at Falconsbane & Ancar for hatebonds, you'll strike nearer the mark. Falconsbane hates gryphons. He lets that hatred blind him to the point where it destroys him. Ancar hates Elspeth & Seleney. He literally kills himself while trying to strike down Elspeth. Even Vanyel gives into hate in _Magic's Price_ which allows him to be captured by Leareth's henchmen. If not for Stefen & Yfandes, he may well have been corrupted by the blood-path mage. As it turned out, his hatred sent him rushing off after this unknown mage and led, ultimately, to his death. 4) >>::sighs, silently agrees, and proceeds to defend Misty to herself:: But, OTOH, it could just be the target audience thing again. A lot of authors aim their books to younger audiences and feel they have to talk down to them.<< A good writer can convey meanings to his projected audience without being preachy. It is in the actions of the characters that their code of values should shine through. Target audiences shouldn't affect anything but vocabulary level and the amount of explicit subject matter! Having a target audience is no excuse for jumping out of the bushes at people and beating them over the head with your personal values!!!!!!!! ******* Esme wrote: >>Is there a death penalty in Valdemar?<< Yup! If you recall, after Ylsa's death, the Council uses the information Talia helps retrieve as proof of certain members of the nobility's treachery. I seem to remember that the text says the "bell tolled the sentence for death". The condemned had the option of taking their own life or having it done for them. Then later >>And if they don't care for him, then he starves or freezes to death - very humane. Hmmmm - maybe Talia's solution wasn't so great after all.<< The death penalty is often a hotly debated topic here in the US. Some say it is right, others that we are killing the innocent along with the guilty. My sentiment is that the death penalty is more just than unjust. I advocate it in three cases only-- premeditated murder, rape, and child molestation. I consider all three to have caused irreparable damage to the victim. Its one of those grey areas where you have to take a risk in order to save society. Or as Gwena so aptly put it "You don't give a mad dog a chance to bite you and you don't try to cure it. You get rid of it, before it destroys something you love." (Winds of Change, p 154) ******* Ob Misty: well sorta. Did ya'll know that Edgar Allen Poe wrote a rather gruesome tale titled "The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar". I rediscovered that story the other day. Its one of his sicker efforts. Glithoniel Mistress of Willowhawk(in exile); Goddess of Tardiness; Lady of the Pink Wand "I'm desperately trying to figure out why kamikaze pilots wore helmets." -- Dave Edison ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1082 **********************************