MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1086 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: abuse/tolkin by Lydia Hales 2) Bday/Joan Vinge/Firebird/GGK/ by Mat the Cat in Green 3) DragonCon/my roommate/Kay by "Hth." 4) Re: Where Heralds fail ....... (IMO ;> ) by Ken Hyde 5) Re: bdays/death penalty/bonds by Ken Hyde 6) co-dependancy by Aimee Dowd 7) Re: Where Heralds fail ....... (IMO ;> ) by Chris & Sean Talbot 8) Re: abuse/tolkin by Chris & Sean Talbot 9) GGK!!!!!!!/savil-rotten veggies by "Vrondi" 10) Sheilds by "Vrondi" 11) Abuse by "H.D. Wegemer" 12) Where Heralds fail ....... (IMO ;> ) by AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com 13) Re: abuse/tolkin by "Ulf G. Dahlmann" 14) deryni/child abuse/religion/books, I found real books! by "Emily the invisible" 15) Re: abuse/tolkin by Lydia Hales 16) TINOTW/GGK/vegetables by Mat the Cat in Green 17) Re: abuse by ahri-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer) 18) B-Day/Fluff by Deniz 19) ~semi~ by Minterra-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:55:25 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: abuse/tolkin Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Steve Mattila wrote: > In the US, if there is > reason to suspect that some high ranking offical may be in danger, we > step in to protect that person. However, if a child is in danger, > they're luckey if two hours are spent on their case. The schools are > told to keep situations of abuse quiet. What ever happened to protecting > > Rowain, I'm a CCD teacher (the Catholic equivalent of "Sunday School" and religion classes rolled into one). I am required to report susupected abuse. What bothers me is the law written to protect parents. In interest of "keeping the family together," an abused child is often returned to the (abusive) parent, after the (abusive) parent undergoes "treatment." Needless to say, the child is usually abused again. But the parents have "their" child back again. Then there is always the numbers of abused kids. Have you read _When the Bough Breaks_ ? In it a teacher tries to reprt suspected child abuse and is told by the overworked social worker to call back when she has eviedence. This happens; there are too many cases and not enough funding or people to handle them. I don't know how to solve this problem, and it tears at my heart every time I read about a case in the papers, or see one on the news. I suppose stricter laws to give the children more protection, and preventative treatment may help. Parenting classes and support groups_sometimes abuse happens when the parent expects too much from the child, not considering the child's level of cognitive development. Support groups like Paretns Annon. do help, only if the parent is willing to be helped. ObMisty I'm at school right now.... no books..... hmmmmm... let's see here.... ARGH! I can't think of anything. Do you think that Sayvil was really Van's Aunt Savil? :) (Couldn't resist). Now I had better go hide in my practice room before I get pelted with rotten vegetables by list members. Lady Lydia Priestess of Brass Instruments, and Tamer of the Wild (F) Horn. psu07362-+AT+-odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:34:40 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Bday/Joan Vinge/Firebird/GGK/ Message-ID: A boom of thunder can be heard echoing throught the Halls of the Mistylist. With a flash of lightning, the God of Procrastination appears before his High Priestess (the one who hasn't disappeared ) "Sorry this is late Deniz, but, well, you know me." He holds out his hand, and upon it sits an emerald and silver pendant. "I bestow upon thee, belatedly for thy birthing day, the Pendant of Procrastination. With it, thou canst induce Procrastination in any you so desire." "I figure that you can use it to keep Woodlark away from the keyboard when she's getting uppity." =============================================================================== On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Lee wrote: > Ooh, that ~is~ a good question. Have you read Joan Vinge's _Psion_ and > _Catspaw_? (There's a third book out, too, but I haven't seen it > *anywhere* in paperback .) What Cat does to protect himself from > mindprobing isn't exactly "shielding," but at one point he comments, "It > felt like holding my breath." Ooo, Cat is cool. He also describes it as being like clenching a fist, IIRC. He can sheild like that, but it's hard to keep it up, just like holding your breath. He also has more passive defenses, like sending mindprobes down false paths and such. But the psions of Vinge's world seem different in that they seem to have no qualms about reading people. Most books with telepaths have them be either very moral about it (i.e. - Heralds -- only do it when they have to, supposedly) or very imoral about it (Falconsbane, et all.). Vinge's telpaths (or at least Cat) tend to read people whenever and whyever they feel like it. It bothers *other* people, but not the telepath. She also has something that I like, that all psions, telepaths or not, have better built in defenses agains telepathy, by virtue of being more in control of their minds. And b/c of that, they can usually develop eideitic (I *know* I spelled that wrong) memories if they want to. The third book is _Dreamfall_. Cat goes to Refuge, the Hydran homeworld. Cool book. The ending had me screaming "No Fair!" though. I got it in hardcover, but for $10 only. New too. Gotta love The Strand (new and used bookstore in Greenwich Village, NYC). :) ============================================================================ On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 Rhodri wrote: > Firebird semi-spoiler!!!!!!!! *Semi*-spoiler???? Eek, you pretty much said the whole plot. =========================================================================== On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 Esme wrote: > I'm re-reading GGKay's Song for Arbonne at the moment - only read it the > once before. It is a lovely book - I think it's going to grow on me like > Tigana. I have also finally found books 2 and 3 of the Finovar Tapestry - so > don't espect much in the way of Obmisties out of me - I'm saturating on > Mhr. Kay! Incidentally, what was his connection to Tolkein - I know there > was one - was he involved with the Silmarillion (or howeve you spell it)? IIRC, GGKay helped Christopher Tolkien edit _The Silmarillion_ for its original publication. You know, taking Prof Tolkien's notes and turning them into a book. IIRC, JRR Tolkien didn't think it was ready for publication before he died. But then again, the last time I looked into this stuff (did a biography/discusssing criticism paper on Tolkien/Silmarillion senior year in HS) was about 3-4 years ago. I've really got to get around to reading _The Lions of Al-Rassan_. I've had it forever, but I never get around to reading it. It's the only GGK I haven't read yet. Mat (who's still semi-lurking, 'cause he's been too laz^H^H^Hbusy to answer his mail) Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Hey diddle-dee, answer me this riddle, Adept, God of Procrastination | hey diddle-do, tell me what you will. Heathen #149, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | Dance all day with the Cat and the mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | Fiddle. Come and lay with the Heather http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | on the hill" --- Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:47:33 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: DragonCon/my roommate/Kay Message-ID: <03FEB97.15976159.0240.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> DragonCon: a speculative fiction & gaming convention in Atlanta, Georgia (USA) from June 26 to June 29 of this year. Guests will include Mercedes Lackey & family (as well as other little people you may have heard of, folks like Barbara Hambly, CJ Cherryh, Poppy Brite, Clive Barker....) There will be programming sponsored by the Queen's Own, which is the official Misty fan club, and there will also be one or two Mistylist parties. The cost is $35 to register until March 15, when the price goes up -- though you also have to worry about transportation and hotels. For anything you'd ever want to know about DragonCon, go to: http://www.dragoncon.org Trade my roommate? Not on your life! I love her like a sister -- and I'd never be able to find anything in the kitchen without her. However, her problems with Misty are definitely not due to underexposure. It was Barbara, in fact, who got me reading Misty on a serious basis, five years ago. She's read all the Valdemar books (except SilverG and SBreaking), the Diana Tregarde books, the Bardic Choices books, Elvenbane & Elvenblood, Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, and probably more that I've forgotten. In fact, her main complaint about Misty is that she's repetitive, and there's nothing in the newer books that wasn't done and usually done better in the older books. On which I'm inclined to agree. Guy Gavriel Kay and Christopher Tolkien were the editors/compilers of The Silmarillion, which was published after JRR Tolkien's death. Or that's what I heard, anyway. There was a bit of discussion about Tiger Burning Bright, but not just tons. If you want to start it, go right ahead; I know at least some of us have read the book. I actually liked it pretty well -- which is amazing given the proven ability of all three of these authors to produce utter drek. They seem to have taken the high road with this book Ob Misty: Something confuses me in the discussion about Holderkin secession. Is "there is no one true way" a *law* or just a general guiding principle? If the Holderkin were to up and announce one day that theirs was the only true way and everyone else was going to hell, but otherwise continued to behave exactly as they always have, in accordance with all the laws of Valdemar, would they be prosecutable? Because, wow, if that were the case, the Heralds would effectively become the Spanish Inquisition, finding and punishing heretics and dissenters who didn't belive what the good and gods-fearing folk of Valdemar ought to believe: that there is no one true way. But, assuming that NOTW is not actually a law, then the Holderkin are not in violation of anything (except community standards, I guess) if they declare that they feel that theirs is the only legitimate way. If they want to practice religious discrimination, however, I think Valdemar's options would be Cennydd's "not under my roof" position (which I liked) or the US Civil War route: "We don't like your country; we seceed" "We like it just fine, and there are more of us; you're staying put" It would make an interesting plot, though, wouldn't it? Especially factoring in hostile outside forces: which makes Valdemar look more vulnerable, losing pieces of their own country or a civil war? HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:36:33 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: Where Heralds fail ....... (IMO ;> ) Message-ID: First of all, I am giving up on braiding temporarily (this week only), due to some exigencies in my schedule. If I get too annoying, somebody smack me, 'kay? =) On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > Get the picture - a neglected and abused child. What do the > Heralds do for him, and all the other battered little souls like him? > Precious little it seems to me. Hmmmm. To quote McCaffrey, quoting Pope: "Who sees with equal eye, as God of all/a hero die or sparrow fall?" > I mentioned in an earlier mail that Heralds don't seem to have any urban > responsibilities, but here are these great moral crusaders, able to judge > and condemn, arbitrate and decide in major disputes, looked up to as > something pure and uncorruptable; and there's a heaving great mass of > the population that they are totally failing. I think that Heralds do have urban responsibilities (I seem to remember that there was mention made of Heralds working in the court/justice system in Haven itself). As far as other areas of urban misery go, I don't know that there were any (AFAWK, Valdemar has exactly one city: Haven). But, in any sufficiently large and dense population there is going to be social stratification which will result in a poverty class. And the Heraldic Circle is way too small a group to adequately police an entire nation *and* address every social inequity. The kind of problems that Stefen is a symptom of are not something that can be addressed by Heralds carrying off children to a "better" life. They can only be adequately addressed by massive and radical changes in the social system that produces these children. The only problem that I see with such a solution, however, is that in every RL scenario I can think of, and in every hypothetical one that I have ever encountered, the solution involves a massive loss in personal freedom. Thus Communism or the various socialisms attempted to use governmental power to regulate the social system and ensure an equal distribution of the goods of the society. Communism (at least in its political realization) was notably unsuccessful in accomplishing its goals. But even more importantly, Communism involved a suppression of personal rights and freedoms that was unsupportable over an extended period of time. Even in China (which maintains an officially Communist government), the actual system has moved dramatically away from a "pure" communist system. Socialist governments in RL have similar problems, though not to the same degree: limited success and curtailed personal freedom. Most utopian societies that I have read of have a inverse problem. Because they are fiction, they can be successful. However, when you really read them critically, you realize that they are extremely oppressive...or would be if it weren't for the fact that everyone in them was perfect. So, what does this have to do with Misty? I think that basically, one of the more realistic touches (and they are really few and far between) to her social theory is the acknowledgement that people are not perfect and that even an "ideal" government or social system does not guarantee that every person in it will be perfect (or even that most of them will be). Stefen exists precisely because the people (many, many, many people) fall through the cracks of even the most altruistic and well-meaning of governments. And the more importance the government or social system places on personal freedom, the more cracks there are to fall through. > They need a copy of the UNICEF Convention on the Rights of the Child! On the other hand, if they did, we could never again complain about the inauthenticity of Misty's pseudo-feudalism. The Rights of the Child are strictly a very recent concept, and are not even particularly well-supported in the 20th century, let alone in a medieval venue. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with such a concept, but such rights are the product of a society (or societies) that have a generally high level of affluence. A society that is still struggling against the spectre of endemic famine, general poverty, or a brutally oppressive political system has bigger fish to fry. > Mhr. Kay! Incidentally, what was his connection to Tolkein - I know there > was one - was he involved with the Silmarillion (or howeve you spell it)? He was an assistant to Christopher Tolkien and help prepare the manuscript of the Silmarillion for publication. I don't think that he is associated with the Tolkien Estate any more, though. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:37:42 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: bdays/death penalty/bonds Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 Azreil1997-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Neg. bonds.....scary thought. how would the bond exist, all of the bonds > that i remember reading of in misty are between lovers, so i find it hard to > conceptualize a neg bond between two people. the closest i can think of is a > passionate hate that overwhelms one or both people....but that doesn't seem > to resemble what is being talked about. Well, I direct everyone's attention to "The Forgotton Beast's of Eld" by Patricia McKillip. It is the classic exploration of a hate bond, and has one of the best descriptions of such a bond that I have every read. I shall try to find the exact reference and send it to the list, but I cannot guarantee that I shall do so this week. If you can find the book (many libraries will have it), the key passage is towards the end, where Sibyl is describing what it means to hate someone. However, other type of negative bonds exist. What about the kind of destructive obsessions and co-dependancy that we see so often in real life? For myself, at least, I have a couple of friends who have been in bad relationships, not because they were "in love" with the other person, but simply because the other person was feeding their darker side. Anyway, those were some thoughts. ObMisty: Why do I get the feeling that Misty doesn't think that co-dependancy is such a bad thing? (Stef and Van?) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 97 17:30:39 EST From: Aimee Dowd To: Mercedes Lackey Discussion List Subject: co-dependancy Message-ID: <970203.173906.EST.AIMEDOWD-+AT+-UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> Cennydd said, "ObMisty: Why do I get the feeling that Misty doesn't think that co-dependancy is such a bad thing? (Stef and Van?)" Yeah, a lifebond *is* rather the ultimate co-dependant relationship, isn't it. Although Savil's comments about Van and Lendel would seem to indicate that Misty is aware of the downside -- she kept saying that Van was too dependant on Tylendel, and how Van tried to depend too much on other people -- Savil and Liss -- after Lendel died. Aimee Dowd aimedowd-+AT+-uga.cc.uga.edu *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:04:35 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Where Heralds fail ....... (IMO ;> ) Message-ID: <199702031804.NAA25956-+AT+-relief.idirect.com> >I mentioned in an earlier mail that Heralds don't seem to have any urban >responsibilities, but here are these great moral crusaders, able to judge >and condemn, arbitrate and decide in major disputes, looked up to as something >pure and uncorruptable; and there's a heaving great mass of the population that >they are totally failing. They need a copy of the UNICEF Convention on the >Rights of the Child! Okay I have to say that they can't help everyone. Haven is a big place. Valdemar is a big place. The heralds may know about the abuse but until it is reported what can they do. In our own society only about 30% of all abuse cases will be reported. So you think that there are many that aren't. The scene with Neave in Arrows of the Queen, Kyril said something on the lines of we Help those we can" Well not everyone can be helped. Heralds also don't peek into others minds without a sufficient enough reason. So you see they won't know who is being abused and who is abusing unless they peep. Aistes bonded to Kesta and Wiky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:04:37 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: abuse/tolkin Message-ID: <199702031804.NAA25962-+AT+-relief.idirect.com> At 05:07 PM 2/3/97 GMT, you wrote: >> Rowain, I'm a CCD teacher (the Catholic equivalent of "Sunday School" >and religion classes rolled into one). I am required to report >susupected abuse. What bothers me is the law written to protect >parents. In interest of "keeping the family together," an abused child >is often returned to the (abusive) parent, after the (abusive) parent >undergoes "treatment." Needless to say, the child is usually abused >again. But the parents have "their" child back again. I am sorry to point this out again but most cases of Abuse never get reported. Though teachers are legally obliged to tell about possible abuse victims. If they don't they can in fact be brought up on criminal charges called Neglect. Though child abuse is common still the majority of the people aren't returned to that family member but are given to the other parent if single or to another relative. And since most abuse cases tend to be people who have had an abusive past the child will therefore be put back into the same type of abusive situations. Now I am also not from the States I live in Canada and only know CAnadian law. But I have studied abuse cases and they say that even in the states there are thousands of cases that go unreported each year. >_When the Bough Breaks_ ? In it a teacher tries to reprt suspected child >abuse and is told by the overworked social worker to call back when she >has eviedence. This happens; there are too many cases and not enough >funding or people to handle them. That is true, you do have to have some proof other then intuiton like a comment a child has made about being beaten. Even as in joking the teachers are supposed to report it. >preventative treatment may help. Parenting classes and support >groups_sometimes abuse happens when the parent expects too much from the >child, not considering the child's level of cognitive development. That may help. It can only help if the parents who abuse the children are enrolled in these classes. Most of the abusers don't think they are being abusive just seeing it as there right. How can you know who abuses and who doesn't. There are just too many little guidelines now that you can never just say he does it. You have to have some proof. Aistes bonded to KEsta and Wiky ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:47:50 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: GGK!!!!!!!/savil-rotten veggies Message-ID: <199702040002.TAA02386-+AT+-student1.concord.wvnet.edu> Okay ppl. I have "A Song for Arbonne." I love it! It's one of those oh my god, take your breath away, then make you laugh and cry books!!!! It's the only thing by Guy Gavriel Kay that I have even seen in a store around here though. Doe anyone have a list of his stuff? One good thing. I got it in hardback from a used book store for about $3 new condition too. ______________________________________________________________ > On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Steve Mattila wrote: >hmmmmm... let's see here.... > ARGH! I can't think of anything. Do you think that Sayvil was > really Van's Aunt Savil? :) (Couldn't resist). Now I had better > go hide in my practice room before I get pelted with rotten > vegetables by list members. Rotten vegetables? now why would we do that? (picks up some nice green _hard_ vegetables) _______________________________________________________________ -Vrondi (Bard of Amber and Marigold) "Here he comes across the lake. He's comin' for his birthday cake. Sing 'Happy Birthday, Dragon Don,' And watch him blow the candles. . . on." -Shel Silverstein(Falling Up) http://edweb.concord.wvnet.edu/~deanca/book ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:55:34 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Sheilds Message-ID: <199702040002.TAA02375-+AT+-student1.concord.wvnet.edu> I have a contribution to the discussion about shields. A friend of mine suggested that perhaps shields (good ones anyhow) are more like a filter or net than a wall. Healthy sheilds would filter out harsh or intrusive things while letting in well wishes or things directed straight at the individual. This would work better than constantly blocking out everything. Kerowyn thinks of her shields as reducing the constant babble in her head to a dull roar when she first gets them. OR if you had a net design it would notify you of "incoming" things and it would be easy to turn into a wall under specific circumstances because you'd already have the basic structure up, but not all the full constant energy expenditure. -Vrondi (Bard of Amber and Marigold) "Here he comes across the lake. He's comin' for his birthday cake. Sing 'Happy Birthday, Dragon Don,' And watch him blow the candles. . . on." -Shel Silverstein(Falling Up) http://edweb.concord.wvnet.edu/~deanca/book ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:22:10 +0000 From: "H.D. Wegemer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Abuse Message-ID: <9702040017.AA21708-+AT+-flash> Valdemar has a large population. Heralds have a small population. Abuse is often not abvious unless you know the family, or at least the child. Valdemar has education *available* to all (Savil, arguing with Withen, Magic's Promise), but does not seem to have compulsory education. Because schooling is not required, children are not necessarily in daily contact with a responsible adult. If something were organized with an annual questioning of -every- child in the Kingdom under Truthspell about that child's treatment by the parents, abuse -might- be eradicated. Without this step, it is unreasonable to expect Heralds to "just know, and fix everything." If a child approached a Herald (remember that Heralds must universally have access to children, since soon afterr Talia's Choosing) and report abuse, the Herald would certainly take action. Most abused children see their treatment as right and proper, as they deserve the punishment. Others might fear parental reproach -- but not, obvioously, with a Herald, who could tell the child was lying (via TruthSpell) and is empowered to take whatever action he or she deems fit. IN REALITY We do not have TruthSpell. Children do lie, sometimes. Authorities do act on it -- sometimes not even telling the accused adult when the investigation is finished. My family was involved in such a case, and the adult in question was -assumed- guilty, treated as such, and only discovered the investigation was over on receiving the lawyer's bill. This is somewhat of a sensitive subject; I recognize that there are faults in the system and that many children are genuinely abused . . . but they -already- assume the adult guilty, then look for proof wherever they can find it. What more do you want????? Heather (Not What She Said, Not the Singer, nor an adequate back-up Heather for either of those. Completely insignificant.) --- Although I dwell by choice in realms Ephemeral as phosphor glow It is a life -- it is _my_ life -- As real as aught you know. H. Wegemer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 19:51:47 -0500 (EST) From: AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Where Heralds fail ....... (IMO ;> ) Message-ID: <01IEZP0P5MPU9AO4L5-+AT+-delphi.com> On 3-FEB-1997 09:37:59.4 mercedes-lackey said to AERDEN me>Get the picture - a neglected me>and abused child. What do the Heralds do for him, and all the other me>battered little souls like him? Precious little it seems to me. me>I mentioned in an earlier mail that Heralds don't seem to have any urban me>responsibilities, but here are these great moral crusaders, able to me>judge and condemn, arbitrate and decide in major disputes, looked up me>to as something pure and uncorruptable; and there's a heaving great me>mass of the population that me>they are totally failing. They need a copy of the UNICEF Convention on me>the Rights of the Child! Ohhhhh...How do I respond to this without seeming like a callous, cold b*tch? Okay, I'll just say it. I don't consider a Herald's function to be primarily one of Child Protective Services worker. To me, Heralds have always seemed to be concerned first and foremost with the defense and foreign/domestic maintenance of the kingdom as a whole. Sometimes rescuing abused children or crime victims might fall under that pervue; more usually it might be more the function of the priestly orders or (one would hope) observant and caring members of such a child's community. I honestly believe that most Heralds don't have the luxury to devote themselves to that as their lifes' work. But maybe there some Heralds who do CPS-type work. All we ever see in the stories are the Heralds who are political movers and shakers, the ones who cause and direct events of great moment. We don't see the ordinary circuit Heralds as a rule. It would make perfect sense to me if there were Heralds whose primary business was to protect Valdemar from enemies within--those Valdemarans who would harm their own children or family members. With Heralds around like Neave, I can't believe that Heraldom as a whole would be entirely indifferent to the problem. I am really sorry if I've offended anyone, but I decided stating myself plainly would be better than trying to pussyfoot with my opinion until it lost all force. me>I always thought McCaffery's drudges led pretty rotten lives - it's a me>good term though - they did drudge (can one drudge - I drudge, we me>drudged, they have drudged, or is one a drudge???) Yep. I've gathered from the books that drudges are trained to do the jobs that are too boring or monotonous for most people to want to do. Chantal The Tao that can be perceived is not the true Tao. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:22:37 +0100 From: "Ulf G. Dahlmann" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: abuse/tolkin Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970204022251.293fbb0e-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> At 17:07 03.02.97 GMT, Lady Lydia wrote: > >ObMisty > >I'm at school right now.... no books..... hmmmmm... let's see here.... >ARGH! I can't think of anything. Do you think that Sayvil was really >Van's Aunt Savil? :) (Couldn't resist). Now I had better go hide in my >practice room before I get pelted with rotten vegetables by list members. > This is the cheapest way of getting attention I have ever seen. No I will NOT use vegetables or the sort, I will plainly ignore those ... well whatever, I am simply left speechless. Ulf -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf aka Vanyel: vanyel-+AT+-compuserve.com valdemar-+AT+-geocities.com vanyel-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de vanyelulf-+AT+-aol.com vanyel-+AT+-cutey.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2211/ http://members.aol.com/pepverlag2/iglyo/iglyo.html http://members.aol.com/pepverlag/peptop.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:10:36 +0000 From: "Emily the invisible" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: deryni/child abuse/religion/books, I found real books! Message-ID: <199702040209.SAA16688-+AT+-geocities.com> Summerstar asked: >Everybody's talking about the "Deryni Model". It's from the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. They're the books that hhooked me on fantasy. I have a Katherine Kurtz web page (address in sig), and if anyone wants to know more, email me! Re: Child abuse The laws about it differ _wildly_ from state to state in the USA, and they are probably even more different outside of the US (comments, Europeans?). In PA, basically, if the goverment finds out, the abuser gets taken to court, but we didn't even have some basic protections for the kid til just last year. And if the abuser is a parent, the kid usually gets stuck in foster care... The problem is that kids won't talk about it cause they're scared. Lee said: >What?! Those who do not know their own religion's history >are doomed to look like idiots. Yeah... I don't tell them that tho', I just ask politely why we have X, Y and Z (all Christ related). That usually shuts them up, and sometimes they even get polite. Of course, I'm terribly rude when someone tries to convert me... I tell them that the dog is a Buddhist and then they think I'm crazy. I have no problems with _sharing_ viewpoints on religion, but I have serious problems with anyone who wants me to break a promise I made. Why would they want someone who can't keep a promise to the Divine in their church anyway? Actually, that stuff is why I believe in TINOTW. If I want a right to worship my own way, I have to let the Protestants, neopagans, Muslims and everyone else worship in _their_ own way. Otherwise, I'm demanding special treatment and breaking the rules of my religion... Ouch! Oh, guess what! I got totally bored Sun, so I went to the campus library and poked around in the card catalog (online version, of course) and tried an author search on Katherine Kurtz... They actually have hidden some real, fun, interesting books in there... Ones that aren't for research! I wrote down the location of one of the KK books, and went looking. I found the most unbelievable SFF section. They had books by Patricia Wrede, Robert Jordan, Katherine Kurtz, Anne McCaffrey, Misty, Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein (only the junk tho'), Christopher Stasheff, Ben Bova, Barry Hughart, Katherine Kerr, Elizabeth Scarborough, MZB, Josepha Sherman, Mark Shepard (ack!), Timothy Zahn (including a Cobra book), a couple Star Wars books, a couple Star Trek books, some Magic: The Gathering books, and _lots_ more! I was standing there gibbering because they had some of the books that I've been wanting to read for years, others that I have loved desparately and never been able to buy, all combined with some of the worst dreck imaginable (what you consider dreck may vary, but I can promise each and every one of you that an author you despise is up there!). The only flaw in this treasure trove is that you can't check the books out :-(. Considering some of what's up there (the proof copy of A Crown of Swords, etc) I can understand why... I think I'm gonna be a lot quieter for a while. Don't worry, I'll be busy reading (or studying). Emily the invisible, who is _very_ happy at the thought of so many pages of books to read Dame of the OAM http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/7726/ ecartier-+AT+-geocities.com (please don't use the one in the header, as it bounces) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:48:24 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: abuse/tolkin Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Ulf G. Dahlmann wrote: > At 17:07 03.02.97 GMT, Lady Lydia wrote: > > > >ObMisty > > > >I'm at school right now.... no books..... hmmmmm... let's see here.... > >ARGH! I can't think of anything. Do you think that Sayvil was really > >Van's Aunt Savil? :) (Couldn't resist). Now I had better go hide in my > >practice room before I get pelted with rotten vegetables by list members. > > > > This is the cheapest way of getting attention I have ever seen. No I will > NOT use vegetables or the sort, I will plainly ignore those ... well > whatever, I am simply left speechless. > >> Chill out, Ulf. It was a JOKE!! You know, ha ha! Laughter, or maybe a grin; or if it was that bad, a groan. Give me a break and lighten up!!!!!!! Sorry you don't seem to have a sense of humor. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:44:55 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: TINOTW/GGK/vegetables Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Hth. wrote: > Ob Misty: Something confuses me in the discussion about Holderkin > secession. Is "there is no one true way" a *law* or just a general > guiding principle? If the Holderkin were to up and announce one day > that theirs was the only true way and everyone else was going to hell, > but otherwise continued to behave exactly as they always have, in > accordance with all the laws of Valdemar, would they be prosecutable? > Because, wow, if that were the case, the Heralds would effectively > become the Spanish Inquisition, finding and punishing heretics and > dissenters who didn't belive what the good and gods-fearing folk of > Valdemar ought to believe: that there is no one true way. Hmmm. I think that it's referred to as the primary law of Valdemar. But, I think it may be more a law meant for the government than the individual religions really. I mean, honestly, I seriously doubt that most common people (and most uncommon people) would truly believe that another religion is as "right" as theirs. I think it's more of an attempt to have a "live and let live" policy than an attempt to regulate people's beliefs. To use your example, it's just fine if the Holderkin decide that theirs is the true way. As long as they don't try to persecute others b/c they're not of the Holderkin way, and don't go on the offensive b/c of it. In *that* case, I think, the Valdemaran government would step in. Not to control beliefs, but to prevent imposition of those beliefs on others. And most likely, it's the Lord Patriarch's job to watch out for just such a problem. IIRC, there's a scene in MPromise or MPrice where Van and the Lord P are discussing the Vkandis sects in Valdemar that supports this, but I'm just too darn tired to go look for the textevd. :) ========================================================================= On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Vrondi wrote: > It's the only thing by Guy Gavriel Kay that I have even seen in a > store around here though. Doe anyone have a list of his stuff? > One good thing. I got it in hardback from a used book store for > about $3 new condition too. IIRC, Kay has written only 6 books: _The Fionavar Tapestry_ _The Summer Tree_ _The Wandering Fire_ _The Darkest Road_ _Tigana_ _A Song for Arbonne_ _The Lions of Al-Rassan_ Now if I can just get around to reading _Lions_...... > > On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Steve Mattila wrote: > >hmmmmm... let's see here.... > > ARGH! I can't think of anything. Do you think that Sayvil was > > really Van's Aunt Savil? :) (Couldn't resist). Now I had better > > go hide in my practice room before I get pelted with rotten > > vegetables by list members. > > Rotten vegetables? now why would we do that? (picks up some nice > green _hard_ vegetables) "Hmmm. How would one classify *these*?" As he speaks, two large, white coconuts appear, and hover just above and behind Mat's shoulders. They are rotating, as if seeking something...or someone out........ Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Hey diddle-dee, answer me this riddle, Adept, God of Procrastination | hey diddle-do, tell me what you will. Heathen #149, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | Dance all day with the Cat and the mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | Fiddle. Come and lay with the Heather http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | on the hill" --- Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 00:00:57 EST From: ahri-+AT+-juno.com (Erika Plajer) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: abuse Message-ID: <19970203.235941.7551.5.Ahri-+AT+-juno.com> On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:38:31 GMT Steve Mattila writes: >step in to protect that person. However, if a child is in danger, >they're luckey if two hours are spent on their case. The schools are This is sadly very true, and I can speak from very close experience. At this very time, there is what I can easily refer to as a crisis involving two of my cousins. I won't go into detail, since it is off topic and doesn't really need to be aired here. I just wished to confirm your statement. Sorry for nothing Misty related, but I just can't think right now. Sorry... -=-=-=-=-=-=- Blessed be, Ahri-+AT+-Juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 97 00:56:03 -0500 From: Deniz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: B-Day/Fluff Message-ID: <199702040559.AAA08200-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Okay... let me quickly get my Birthday announcing out of the way (we have a *lot* of February birthdays!) TOMORROW/TODAY (depending on whether you're going to sleep or waking up) IS TAMARA'S 17th BIRTHDAY!!!!! LIKEWISE, LADY NIGHTSHADOW IS ALSO TURNING 17 A DAY LATER (5th). If you wish, you may e-mail her private at nightdancer-+AT+-hotmail.com I'm gonna do a gifting in my next post, when you skip on to the next part of my message, you'll see why. (*^+*&($^#%#*^%( ARRRGH!!!!! Our server crashed. So any mail that came in Sunday night or most of today is irrevocably lost. Grrrrr. It's no big problem for the list (I'll just order up the digest), but it means I have no clue what the current threads are, and I'm not of a temperament to search right now. And, of course, when I tried to send this message off, I found out I had gotten unsubscribed in the process... well, I'm back now! :) Yes, the High Priestess of Procrastination actually Procrastinating on list mail. It can happen. Stop laughing. please? If I weren't so miserable while I was being pathetic, I think woodlark would take over right now... but (after having read the three list posts my system managed to salvage, the one from my God being one of them) I used the Pendant of Procrastination to transfer my headaches to her so that she rethinks the urgency of booting me off the comp. Mwahahahahahaha. Thank You, Mat. It works wonderfully, and I'll treasure it forever. It's not too late, anyway. :) I love this. I have my birthday, and the very next day, my body finally decides to be sick. Ugh. Soo... you want an ObMisty, eh? Well... I'm gonna exercise that Pendant again... after I finally catch up on what I missed (couldn't have been too much, right?) I'll write good stuff. Oh, and before I forget. Ashanti. Yes, you, chile. Stand over heah raht nex ta me. Now stay. I hain't seen your post yet, (sizzle-frickin' server) but you tole me you done posted yo'self, so's here's a little welcome. (Please excuse the awful "Ebonics" I can read it, but it's hard to write) Yay! The table's gonna take over the world! /me hugs 'Shanzi. Dis be my friend. Now, y'all be nice to him... he's a sweet chile, he is. Welcome to the madne... FUN!!!!! love, Deniz Sarikaya, High Priestess of |"Perhaps today IS a good to die!"-- Worf Procrastination, Holy Custodian of|"You told him about the statue?" -- Riker the B-Day List, Dame of the OoAM, |"I'm a doctor, not a doorstop." -- EMH and Demon of Deceitful Aliases. |"Definitely not Swedish." -- Lily >dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA< >freakola-+AT+-geocities.com< >http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/< <---- End Forwarded Message ----> love, Deniz Sarikaya, High Priestess of |"Perhaps today IS a good to die!"-- Worf Procrastination, Holy Custodian of|"You told him about the statue?" -- Riker the B-Day List, Dame of the OoAM, |"I'm a doctor, not a doorstop." -- EMH and Demon of Deceitful Aliases. |"Definitely not Swedish." -- Lily >dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA< >freakola-+AT+-geocities.com< >http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 04:39:04 -0500 (EST) From: Minterra-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: ~semi~ Message-ID: <970204000622_648490904-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> Mat wrote : << *Semi*-spoiler???? Eek, you pretty much said the whole plot. >> Weelll, that's kinda how I started it. Did get pretty involved, though, didn't I? Hope it helped Heather. You know, I ~did~ happen to leave a few^H^H^H nice, healthy amount of good parts out. Besides, it was my first spoiler, so nyah ;p Brightest be thy day, Rhodri ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1086 **********************************