MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1090 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) the required lesbian rant by "Hth." 2) my friend/lesbian rant by Faranheit-+AT+-aol.com 3) Re: Vegetables\SoI\ by northcat-+AT+-juno.com (carol a lena) 4) "Not Without My Daughter" by Melanie Dymond Harper 5) Newbie Fest/tamora Pierce/Tayledras/a petition by "Emily the invisible" 6) ADMIN: J. A. Whalin by Melanie Dymond Harper 7) childhood / Elspeth (from a childhood perspective) by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 8) Re: Tamora Pierce/Ylsa/Tarma&Kethry by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 9) re: Another Velgarth project by Barbara Slater 10) Re: abuse/tolkin by Lydia Hales 11) Re: the required lesbian rant by Ken Hyde 12) normal childhoods by Lonehawk2-+AT+-aol.com 13) Re: childhood / Elspeth (from a childhood perspective) by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 14) Re: Tamora Pierce/Ylsa/Tarma&Kethry by Jennifer 15) Re: the required lesbian rant by Jennifer 16) Re: the required lesbian rant by Lady Ambyrle 17) T&K meet K'Vl\Octarine Gryphon and other parodies\Owlflight speculation by Jaguar 18) Re: the required lesbian rant by Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com 19) Re: the required lesbian rant by Ken Hyde 20) Re: the required lesbian rant by Jennifer 21) childhoods by cgpd708-+AT+-ldd.net (Marilyn Klipfel) 22) ?!?!?!? =) by Rogue Phoenix and Jasmi 23) Re: the required lesbian rant by "Ulf G. Dahlmann" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:24:34 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: <05FEB97.25282464.0167.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Well, y'all knew it was coming sooner or later, so here it is. Does the fact that no one can accurately remember the names of the parties involved in the lesbian relationship in Heralds of Valdemar seem significant to anyone else? (BTW, they were Ylsa, Keren, and Sherrill.) These are, to my knowledge, the only women involved in primary romantic relationships with women in all of Misty's fifty-some-odd books to date, and they were so unimportant that no one even recalls who they were or how they were connected to the plot. This does not really count as presenting shaych females. (Others are not even mentioned by name, such as the couple who raised one of Vanyel's kids and the generic Holderkin women among whom "special friends" were reportedly common.) This has been a gripe of mine lo these many years (and the old people on the list are groaning and paging down even as we speak, but hey, it came up) -- with most writers of fantasy, not just Misty. There has been an upswing in the last several years of sexy, likeable, well-written gay characters, and almost without exception they've been male. Which is great, and gay men need the good press, but gay women seem to be just as invisible as ever. Even when we know of a female relationship, such as Keren & Sherrill's, or the protagonist and her girlfriend in *Sing the Four Quarters,* we rarely see them together, and we even more rarely see them relating to each other in a romantic way, as opposed to Just Very Good Friends, an almost sisterly relationship. I could go on and on, but there's no real point. But when someone comments on a lack of lesbian characters in Misty, that's what they mean: that they are minor characters, tangential to the plot, who get little attention and are quickly forgotten. Usually we only know they're lovers because we're told; in every way, they act and speak no differently from any other woman with her female friends. This is in contrast to the very real and interesting male romances in her work, which are usually quite central and occur between major characters (Firesong and An'desha, Firesong and Silverfox, Eric and Kory, and Vanyel and his beloved -- debatably Moonsong and Starwind and Lenny and Keith, though they're more secondary than the others.) Addressing the Tarma and Kethry question, have you tried looking for old copies of the *Sword and Sorceress* anthologies, edited by Marion Zimmer Bradley? They're mostly out of print now, but tend to turn up in used bookstores, and most of them include a T&K short story by Misty -- I believe volumes 3 through 10 or 11 all have them, though I could be mildly confused. S&S 3 is definitely the one with the how-they-met story, and the book is considered quite the find. Good luck. No, though, Tarma and Kethry were not lovers. We know this because Tarma has no lovers; as a Sword-Sworn, she was made asexual by the Star-Eyed and no longer has any interest in men or women (she was engaged to a man before the raid that destroyed her clan). We also know this because they tell us so, several times. I always interpreted the line "more than shieldmates" in a more metaphysical sense, in that they were almost two halves of the same person. Don't ask me to explain why the recording of "Threes" ends with "your shieldmate by your side," instead of "your sister at your side," a la the lyrics printed in the books. Just trust me, they weren't shieldmates. Thus far, the only really good lesbian character I know of offhand is Rali Antero from Allan Cole & Chris Bunch's *The Warrior's Tale.* Beyond that, good luck. (Though if you can all wait for, let's say, six or seven years, there'll be a really cool female couple in the third book of my series. That's not so long, now, is it?) HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 02:08:28 -0500 (EST) From: Faranheit-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: my friend/lesbian rant Message-ID: <970206020203_-1609916926-+AT+-emout09.mail.aol.com> Thank you for all the sympathy for my missing friend. I only wish I could give you all a happy ending, but so far they haven't found her. It's been over a week now, and I still think and worry, but I honestly wonder if I will ever hear from her again. I can only pray and keep her in my thoughts and hope that she is out there,somewhere. Had to get that off my chest. Anyway, about this gay/lesbian thing, I have often wondered why we don't see more lesbian characters in literature myself. I loved reading the Chris Bunch novels on Rali Antero. But, MZB also writes something on lesbians too. I remember one Darkover trilogy, but I can't remember the first book's title. Anyway, books 2 and 3 were The Thendara House and City of Sorcery. Gael Baudino is another author who writes on lesbian protagonists. Peony Dame of the OAM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 03:47:31 EST From: northcat-+AT+-juno.com (carol a lena) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vegetables\SoI\ Message-ID: <19970206.034648.3654.0.northcat-+AT+-juno.com> Jaguar, I live in your area and SoI is definitely out, at least around where I live(Alexandria). Where do you live and where can you conviently get to. Let me know, I'll tell you where I've seen it. Northcat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:59:23 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: "Not Without My Daughter" Message-ID: <199702060959.JAA21821-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > For example, Saudi Arabia is one ofthose wonderful countries that still > believes women are not "really" people. know what I'm talking about here> Child marraiges, etc. A good, > gut-wrenching women's movie (though my father loved it too) is Sally > Field's portrayel in "Not Without my Daughter". Unless they rewrote the book fairly substantially (wouldn't be the first time *grin*), wasn't "Not Without My Daughter" centred in Iran? Haven't seen the film, but the book is ... um, I was going to say 'good' but I didn't enjoy it enough for that. 'Powerful', perhaps? Mel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 05:44:58 +0000 From: "Emily the invisible" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Newbie Fest/tamora Pierce/Tayledras/a petition Message-ID: <199702061039.CAA21415-+AT+-geocities.com> For all the newbies who have just arrived, the Newbie Fest is in digests 1076 and 1077. As Deniz has said, it tries to cover everything you every wanted to know about the Misty list. If you have web access you can get the digests at: http://www.herald.co.uk/lackey-archives/ Right now they are under the "Recent" heading, but they will eventually be moved to a new one. If you have a question about something like "What's an ObMisty?" or "What is braiding and why should I do it?" then you need to read the Newbie Fest. If you don't have web access, email Deniz (she's very timely about some things and this is one of them). Re: my Tamora Pierce ? Thanks to everyone who got the title list to me! Now I can save em for later (much later), when I've run out of books (again). And to the person who asked, yes I've read the other 4 books (to the point that my copy of the first one is getting raggy). Otherwise I wouldn't have been looking for titles. Welcome to Rune and Briana and Holly and all the other newbies Kimberella, Lady Becky, are you around out there? Is the Welcoming committee around? Some unknown soul said: >> I sort of hope it's K'Vala.. I know we've seen something about >> them, I'm just not sure where... Then again, given who we've seen >>out of K'Treva, too.... and Mat (oh, good, you're still hanging around!) said: >I don't know. The most we might have is a mention and the maps. >Poor k'Chona and k'Vaia only have the maps entries, IIRC. :) One of the other Clans was mentioned in Obound. Tarma and Kethry meet up with one of their mages (has to be a mage, he was using Need's fave kind of sheilding). Dunno what Clan, but I'm thinking it was one of the "V" names. Tarma and Kethry also met up with another Tayledras in one of the short stories (not S&S V, VI, IX, or XII cause I have those). Since the God of Procrastination is still around... My God, as a faithful servant (so faithful I've procrastinated on this for months), I beg to be taken into Your Service as the Low Priestess of Procrastination (because You have at least one of everything else). I offer you a... a... C program written in VAX which is now overdue, and a copy of my Maple Lab, also overdue. I promise that I'll get around to them (eventually)! Emily the invisible Dame of the OAM http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/7726/ ecartier-+AT+-geocities.com (please don't use the one in the header, as it bounces) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:21:51 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: J. A. Whalin Message-ID: <199702061221.MAA23471-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> .... apologises profusely for the encoded junk sent to the list, and notes that the digests haven't even been being read there for the past few weeks; the encoded stuff appears to have been Microsoft Mail's idea of a receipt. Unsubscribed now, so shouldn't be a problem again. Mel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 97 14:37:57 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: childhood / Elspeth (from a childhood perspective) Message-ID: <9702061337.AA11819-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Greetings, ULF wrote: > If a child lives a 'normal' childhood, why write about it in the book?? It > would be very boring, we want to read adventures, action, etc., most of > those resulting out of unusual, and often unpleasent situation (unfortunately). > In WoChange, the Gryphon-family is a perfect example of a great and > supportive family, yet maybe you don't remember it, because it was this way, > no problems etc. Well, as the one who sort of kicked this off - fun innit, watching some absent "I wonder if ....." take on a life of its own - I wasn't really after the Mummy, Daddy, 2.4 children, cat and dog scenario - more wanting some evidence that parents, be they mother or father, or some other sustitute, cherish their child, give them hugs, take pride in them whatever they do, cuddle them when they need a cuddle, and send them off into the world when they're ready to go. I know normal, everyday lives do not exciting literature make, but the odd expression of affection would be nice. I agree with Ulf - the gryphons do demonstrate love for their children, Ulf writes that we don't remember this - maybe not, but I never forget that they're parents. I never really got the impression that Selenay felt any deep love for Elspeth. Where was the red killing rage Selenay ought to have felt when she discovered that someone had been playing politics with her precious little girl? I bet Talia was the only person who hugged Elspeth, once she got past the baby/toddler stages, until Darkwind took over! And no, it doesn't add a lot to the story - but we are all products of our upbringing, and some insight into where a character has come from, however fleeting a glimpse, adds a lot, for me, to a book. In GGK's A Song for Arbonne, a mother's unborn child is threatened, The mother flies in the face of tradition, society and her king to protect her child, by taking her very pregnant self cross-country to the "enemy". Can't see Selenay doing that. Oh, and neither do I think that to shine in the face of adversity, it helps to have had a shitty childhood. I had a wonderful, sterotypical childhood, and it's the rock on which the adult me stands. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I know we've done Elspeth to death recently, and I'm not trying to restart any debate, I was just rethinking this from the loved/unloved child perspective. Now I come to think about it - did *anyone* get angry on Elspeth's behalf when they discovered what Hulda had been doing? As I recall, her constant companion (Hulda) disappears overnight, she's totally left to her own devices, nobody tells her anything, and then this comparative stranger (Talia) suddenly takes over, and turns her sad little 8 year old life upside down. She's expected to rationalise her behaviour as an adult, which she ain't, is struggling to cope with an enourmous level of change, and when she rebels, she gets hit. Her mamma, apparently, does nothing. Poor little bugger. Swatting your child on the backside for some misdemeanor may or may not be ok. But deputising some stranger to do the swatting for you, especially when the child has reached 8 with never being hit before, and allowing that stranger to second-level deputise the hitting to others, is wrong and cruel. "No darling, Mummy would never hit you. Nanny will hit you and anyone else Nanny choses can hit you. Now run along and play. Mummy's busy." Neither do I wish to start any debate on the pros/cons of smacking children! This is all MHO, and YMMV, or whatever the acronym is, dooie, Esmeralda Evensbane ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 07:45:56 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tamora Pierce/Ylsa/Tarma&Kethry Message-ID: <199702061344.AA296596663-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> At 01:57 AM 2/6/97 GMT, Not Home wrote: >Emily the invisible writes: > >>Does anyone know the titles for all of Tamora Pierce's "The >>Immortals" series? I've found the first one (and read it...) and it's >>clear that there are more. Right now I'm classing it as fun, >>non-fluffy reading, but the first one has some problems with the >>exposition. > I think the others are "Wolf Speaker" and "The Emperor Mage." A fourth one is due out soon. Personally, I prefer the 'Song of the Lionness' quartet. >Stormsong writes: > >>also have a question.. in Oathbound it mentions that t >>hey are pretending to be shieldmates(lovers??? if I read the story >right) are t >>hey lovers or just "two made one" as the translation in oathbound >suggests... >>sorry... but one of the songs on OathBreakers said "u are more than >shieldmate >>now" so I was wondering... In BTS, Tarma comments that Kero's father believed that she and Kethry were lovers. IMHO, the line from the song refers to them being she'endra (sp?) in addition to being warriors. Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 09:37:02 -0500 From: Barbara Slater To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk, slaterb-+AT+-smtpgw2.musc.edu Subject: re: Another Velgarth project Message-ID: re: Another Velgarth project Jag, How about writing about 'Vladimar'? Saw the typo in a message the other day, and it has sparked some *strange* scenarios - like: 1) the first Baron Vladimar is still around... 2) The Companions are wolves by day, and bats by night... 3) primary hemoglobin source for the Riders are strange red fruits, that can be eaten raw or cooked or dried. Every farmer tries to have a good supply of blomatos, in case a Rider stops by... The Companions like the meatballs even more! =) Lani the UnLurker (who hopes this message makes it to the list!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:39:54 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: abuse/tolkin Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Laura M Quimby wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:07:05 GMT Lydia Hales > writes: > > > > > > >> Rowain, I'm a CCD teacher (the Catholic equivalent of "Sunday > >School" > >and religion classes rolled into one). I am required to report > >susupected abuse. What bothers me is the law written to protect > >parents. In interest of "keeping the family together," an abused > >child > >is often returned to the (abusive) parent, after the (abusive) parent > >undergoes "treatment." Needless to say, the child is usually abused > >again. But the parents have "their" child back again. > > > The *GOOD* news is, that rotten law did not go through, and now parents > are not the end all and be all when it comes to their children's lives. > I'm sorry, most parent's might agree with me, but I think we (sort-of) > live in a democracy, and children have rights too!! No one or two people > should have absolute control over you, even if they are your parents. >> I certainly agree with that statement! Children aren't property; they're people, and they have the right to grow up in a safe and nurturing environment. Rune, thank you for sharing your experiences. [hug]. > > (Case in point: I AM a parent. I am a red-head. So is my son. Have he > and I locked horns repeatedly in his 1 year life? Yes. Have I lost my > temper and screamed, or hit the wall in the next room or cried in my > pillow?? I have NOT hit my son. But, should the stress ever get that > bad, I would WANT someone else to have the capability to take my son to > where he was safe. Remember, I am parent, not a saint, and the two are > not synonomous) > >> Having an outlet for the frustrations that accompany parenthood is important. I quite frequently will "babysit" (for free) some of my friends' children to give them a "night off." > (Note-this is not a cry for help, do not contact your local abuse > hotline. This is simply a statement that we are all human.) > > Amen. > > >ObMisty > > > >I'm at school right now.... no books..... hmmmmm... let's see here.... > > > >ARGH! I can't think of anything. Do you think that Sayvil was really > >Van's Aunt Savil? :) (Couldn't resist). Now I had better go hide in > >my > >practice room before I get pelted with rotten vegetables by list > >members. > > > Hmmmm....I think I'll throw kumkwats. > >. What is a kumkwat? > >Lady Lydia > > ~The Lady Godiva~ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:08:22 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: Hmmm, if you are required to have a lesbian rant, am I required to have the Queen's rant? =) On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Hth. wrote: > Does the fact that no one can accurately remember the names of the > parties involved in the lesbian relationship in Heralds of Valdemar seem > significant to anyone else? (BTW, they were Ylsa, Keren, and Sherrill.) Well, it does seem significant, although to be honest, I could remember their names quite accurately. > There has been an upswing in the last several years of sexy, likeable, > well-written gay characters, and almost without exception they've been > male. Well, I am not sure that the picture is a rosy as you present it. There have been a few gay characters plus a handful of other male characters who may or may not be gay (but do have relationships with men). Most of them are almost excessively sexy (and sexual). And almost without exception, they are not terribly likable. (BTW, I am defining "likable" as "you would want to share an apartment with them or hang out together") In Misty's ouevre, for example, I would only consider Stefen to be a really likable person. Vanyel is definitely NOT. He is tragic, admirable, pitiable and the like, but not really "likable." 'Lendel had possibilities, but his insanity reduced his "likability" quotient. Starsong and Moonwind (or whatever their names are) are too remote to be likable, and Firesong is WAY too much of a queen to be really likable (trust me--living with a queen is no fun). If you look at other books, Richard and Alec (in Swordspoint) are alternately amusing, interesting, and pathetic (in the technical sense), but neither is particularly likable. In fact, the only really likable gay male character that I can think of at the moment is Thierry de Carenzu in GGK's "Song for Arbonne" and he is just a bit part with almost no textual presence. It seems like, for the most part, the gay male characters are either tragic figures (punished in the text for violating social norms) or they are stereotypical bitchy queens. I have to say that I have never seen a gay male character in a book (with the aforementioned exception of Thierry) that I "recognized" and said "hey, that is X, to a tee." In other words, the characters are not authentic representations of actual gay existence. (Now I will admit that I do know some gay men who remind me of Alec (SP) or Firesong--but they are not typical at all. In fact they are very marginal in the gay community; no-one is really close to them precisely because they are so artificial). > Thus far, the only really good lesbian character I know of offhand is > Rali Antero from Allan Cole & Chris Bunch's *The Warrior's Tale.* Beyond > that, good luck. Have you read the series by R.A. Rivkin (the only title I can remember is "Silverglass: Web of Wind"). The main characters are a lesbian and her bi friend/guard. Nyc (the sorceress) is unabashedly lesbian and does get to have some textually present "reindeer games." However, that is the only one I can think of. I just wish that Misty would write a character like Karal and have him be gay...someone nice and likable who isn't a characture of "the gay man" or a tortured and tragic figure. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:09:54 -0500 (EST) From: Lonehawk2-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: normal childhoods Message-ID: <970206104859_1861169858-+AT+-emout03.mail.aol.com> Just to put my two cents in - I don't think there is such a thing as normal childhoods. I certainly didn't have one and I haven't been abused (physically) but I haven't had an easy life and i'm not on the best relationship with my parents not because I'm in the teenager stage of rebellion. I have had problems dealing with their idea of raising a child in america in the way they were raised 40 years ago in Russia. Not one of my friends had a "normal childhood". Some had ones definitely worse than others. One even required for her to be removed from her home. But guess what, her sister wound right back in her home even though her father was convicted on seventeen rape charges of her older sister. Where's the logic in that? I don't think Misty is too far from the truth in her description of life. If we all look deep enough, I think that many of those around us wouldn't consider their childhoods "normal" ----- ASHANTI!!!!! You finally stopped lurking!!! Everybody - 'shanti, Shanti - everybody. Hope you like the loony bin . .oops, the list. ----- Happy birthday to all of the Feb, people. ----- Deniz, youre sick AGAIN!!! Girl, why didn't you mail me I can at least offer you a sympathetic virtual shoulder and a virtual kleenex 'hawk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:34:38 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: childhood / Elspeth (from a childhood perspective) Message-ID: <9702061734.AA19668-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> Esmeralda writes: >I never really got the > impression that Selenay felt any deep love for Elspeth. Where was the red > killing rage Selenay ought to have felt when she discovered that someone had > been playing politics with her precious little girl? Er.. Isn't this explained somewhere, either in the arrows books or _by the sword_? Selenay almost certainly *doesn't* feel any deep love for Elspeth; Elspeth is a reminder of Selenay's husband who tried to assasinate her to take the throne, and Selenay has a very hard time seeing past that (cf the song _Her fathers eyes_); this is probably one reason why Elspeth largely got left to the governess. In the early Arrows books, Selenay probably doesn't like Elspeth much, whether she feels she *should* or not; By the time of the later books (winds, storms) they seem to be getting on fairly well - so they've obviously managed to do *something* about the problem in between... -Jerry -- _|_ Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) / | Hemel Hempstead, UK jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \_|_ www.selune.demon.co.uk (soon) \__/ ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 14:05:42 -0600 From: Jennifer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tamora Pierce/Ylsa/Tarma&Kethry Message-ID: <199702061908.NAA22372-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 05:13 AM 2/6/97 GMT, y Alanna P. Hwang wrote: >Wild Magic >Wolf Speaker, ummm, >The Emperor Mage, >And her latest book I can't remember but it is out there.But I know it's >not a collaboration. > >Have you ever read the Hand of the Goddess series? The writing is sort of >stiff and tilted but you can see some younger versions of the characters >such as Alanna, Raoul, Jonathan, George, etc. > > Actually, It's the Song of the Lioness series. (They came first) 1. Alanna: the first adventure 2. In the Hand of the Goddess 3. The Woman Who Rides Like a Man 4. Lioness Rampant They're really Alanna's story... I read them when I was a kid. I wanted to be Alanna really badly. I used to mock-fence with my little brothers. I was also semi- in love with George. The last book in the Immortals series is called The Realms of the Gods. It's really good. But then, I'm a big Tamora Pierce fan. Jennifer Squire to the Lioness ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 14:34:44 -0600 From: Jennifer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: <199702061937.NAA68648-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> Since the lesbian rant has been started, I thought I'd lend another perspective... I work in a bookstore, actually on in a large chain. (Good ol' Barnes and Noble). We stock a lot of books, and I see a lot of different kinds of thing.I also see where the prejudices lie, both in the authors and in Corporate B&N. You're right, Heather and Cenydd (sp?), there is not enough fiction out there about real gay/lesbian people. There is less of lesbian literature than gay literature, but it does exist. Where Corporate always disgusts me, is with where the books are shelved. We, the lowly booksellers, do not get to determine where books get placed in a bookstore as big as ours. (Believe me- were it up to me "The Tao of Pooh" would definately not be in Humor, and centuries old religions would be in religion where they belong- not resigned to some section called "New" Age)Corporate sends the listing to us and we have to follow it to keep all B&Ns relatively uniform. The point to all my ranting against Corporate (sorry, all), is that the good lesbian/gay literature is not shelved with the fiction novels- It's in "Gay and Lesbian Studies". The problem is that it does very little good to just go to another bookstore because some of the titles are so obscure that only a store as large as a B&N (or Borders- they do the same thing) would carry the titles. Your books are out there. People just aren't exposed to them because they get tucked in the corner with the sociological studies. It sucks. Big time. Zhai'helleva, Jennifer witch and keeper of gargoyles mistress of firelizards and dragons ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 15:02:15 -0600 From: Lady Ambyrle To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: <32FA46D5.2B5E-+AT+-named.dalton.net> Hth. wrote: > > > HTH > Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand > Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold *blink,blink* by virtue of my name, i must know more about this Order :) anyone care to divulge details? ambyrle (amber) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:58:45 -0500 (EST) From: Jaguar To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: T&K meet K'Vl\Octarine Gryphon and other parodies\Owlflight speculation Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Emily the invisible wrote: > Some unknown soul said: Yep, that was me! > > One of the other Clans was mentioned in Obound. Tarma and Kethry meet > up with one of their mages (has to be a mage, he was using Need's > fave kind of sheilding). Dunno what Clan, but I'm thinking it was one > of the "V" names. Tarma and Kethry also met up with another Tayledras > in one of the short stories (not S&S V, VI, IX, or XII cause I have > those). > That's it! That's the one I couldn't remember! (I think). I don't know where the short story is in S&S, but I'm pretty sure (If I've got the right story) it's in Oathbound. ---------------------------- And now..... the larch! Ooooh... Okay, here's the list of Gryphon books/short stories. Newbies, be warned.. real books are marked with a *. *Black Gryphon *White Gryphon *Silver Gryphon Gold Gryphon Copper Gryphon Teal Gryphon Chartruse Gryphon Fuschia Gryphon Octarine Gryphon!!! And then, of course, there's that famous "third" book in the Vows and Honor series.. OathBlinded! So far for ideas I've got a Clan K'Chava (and would someone please modem me the Skippy stuff?) from Deniz, a Baron Vladimar from Lani, Whiteraven's blade Weed (if I can steal it from him), and my own idea of HushPuppies (the latest in bond-creatures, silly little dogs who do nothing but yap all day)... hrrm... may I steal Normlsy Falconsbreath? Anyone else who wants to contribute, feel free to join in! --------------------- Hrmmm... wait a minute, does she actually say Tayledras clan? I'm given to think it's going to be K'Vaia, K'Vala, or K'Chona, but what if it's a gryphon-owl scout from K'Leshya? Or have I just been up to late again? (Which is possible... gah.) Love, Jaguar Leader of the Cat People J: "You're robbing a govt installation, Goddess of Large Hunter Cats Isn't that treason or something?" Chronicler of the Mage Wars K: "Your point is what?" Lady in Green -- Det. Jordan and Kermit Knight of Amber and Marigold Kung Fu: The Legend Continues ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:03:57 -0500 (EST) From: Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: <970206131001_1727794140-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> If you are looking for a strong lesbian character check out Gael Baudino's Gossamer Axe. It is great and is not afraid about mixing fantasy with homosexuality. GB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Jennifer wrote: > The point to all my ranting against Corporate (sorry, all), is that the good > lesbian/gay literature is not shelved with the fiction novels- It's in "Gay > and Lesbian Studies". epends on your definition of "good literature." =) I think that what Heather was talking about, and certainly what I was talking about was the dearth of Fant/SciFi with good lesbian characters (or gay ones, as was my point). I have no problem with putting "literature" in the L/G/B Studies section, any more than I object to putting African-American Literature in a separate section. That actually is what I prefer (I hate searching through a giant literature section trying to figure out which books will be on-topic). On the other hand, I don't generally like the "literature" that gets stuck in those sections. (I am just one of those weird people who finds the idea of something being labeled "literature" to be pretentious--of course, the nice part is generally, the stuff with that label really IS pretentious, so it all works out.) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:57:37 -0600 From: Jennifer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: <199702062200.QAA55448-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 09:09 PM 2/6/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Jennifer wrote: > >> The point to all my ranting against Corporate (sorry, all), is that the good >> lesbian/gay literature is not shelved with the fiction novels- It's in "Gay >> and Lesbian Studies". Cennydd replied: >depends on your definition of "good literature." =) I think that what I didn't say it was good. I just said it was there. I'm sorry if the use of the term literature sounds pretentious. I'm used to using it in the store because the fiction section is called "fiction and literature", hence we end up calling it the "lit" section a lot. Cennydd continues: >point). I have no problem with putting "literature" in the L/G/B Studies >section, any more than I object to putting African-American Literature in >a separate section. That actually is what I prefer (I hate searching I'm glad someone likes it. The African American thing bothers me just as much, because it seems like often authors are singled out by race/ orientation, and therefore don't get as much exposure as they should in order to sell their books successfully. A lot of people who might really like a book by a particular author might not ever see it. Many of my friends don't ever go in that section of the store because it's on the opposite side from the sci fi section. I'm not claiming that every book in the G/L section is good- probably 90% of it is crap, but 90% of all the books out there in any genre are crap. You have to sort through. You win some, you lose some. I'm sorry if I sounded pretentious. Jennifer **************************************************************** Jennifer Dorn jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu "There are more things on heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." -Hamlet **************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:57:35 -0600 (CST) From: cgpd708-+AT+-ldd.net (Marilyn Klipfel) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: childhoods Message-ID: <199702062357.RAA14288-+AT+-cdale3.midwest.net> Define Normal!!!! I certainly never had a normal childhood. I always managed to (pardon my fowl language)piss everyone off no matter what i did. In fact a kid tried to kill me with a knife at a birthday party, so I picked up the knife (when he dropped it) and threw at him but (pardon me again) I missed him DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT!!!!!! Sorry about the language but I'm pissed off!!! People allaround me all day today had the nerve to make fun of MISTY!!!!! Can you belive that?!?!?!? Lady Phoenix, A.K.A. Melanie Anne. May the fire in your hearts forever burn with love and honor for misty and each other!!! Marilyn Klipfel cgpd708-+AT+-ldd.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:53:28 -0500 (EST) From: Rogue Phoenix and Jasmi To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: ?!?!?!? =) Message-ID: > Lady Phoenix, What?!?!? Another Phoenix on the list????? =) > May the fire in your hearts forever burn with love and honor for misty and > each other!!! > > > Marilyn Klipfel > cgpd708-+AT+-ldd.net > > "Zhai'helleva ashke' tal'sedr'in" -Old Valdemaran Proverb. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:32:13 +0100 From: "Ulf G. Dahlmann" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the required lesbian rant Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970207033225.4897e0be-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> At 05:53 06.02.97 GMT, HTH wrote: >Well, y'all knew it was coming sooner or later, so here it is. > >Does the fact that no one can accurately remember the names of the >parties involved in the lesbian relationship in Heralds of Valdemar seem >significant to anyone else? (BTW, they were Ylsa, Keren, and Sherrill.) >These are, to my knowledge, the only women involved in primary romantic >relationships with women in all of Misty's fifty-some-odd books to date, >and they were so unimportant that no one even recalls who they were or >how they were connected to the plot. This does not really count as >presenting shaych females. (Others are not even mentioned by name, such >as the couple who raised one of Vanyel's kids and the generic Holderkin >women among whom "special friends" were reportedly common.) > >This has been a gripe of mine lo these many years (and the old people on >the list are groaning and paging down even as we speak, but hey, it came >up) -- with most writers of fantasy, not just Misty. There has been an >upswing in the last several years of sexy, likeable, well-written gay >characters, and almost without exception they've been male. Which is >great, and gay men need the good press, but gay women seem to be just as >invisible as ever. Even when we know of a female relationship, such as >Keren & Sherrill's, or the protagonist and her girlfriend in *Sing the >Four Quarters,* we rarely see them together, and we even more rarely see >them relating to each other in a romantic way, as opposed to Just Very >Good Friends, an almost sisterly relationship. > ... > >Thus far, the only really good lesbian character I know of offhand is >Rali Antero from Allan Cole & Chris Bunch's *The Warrior's Tale.* Beyond >that, good luck. (Though if you can all wait for, let's say, six or >seven years, there'll be a really cool female couple in the third book >of my series. That's not so long, now, is it?) > > I have to admit there is very little of lesbian protagonists in Misty's stories. It's definitely time for it. Often it is only strong and powerful yet straight women (I wonder whether it is because of a certain uneasiness or the fear that Misty might be considered lesbian if it were a major character?? Gay males are less a threat to her? Well, doesn't matter anyways) But I have discovered that in the past couple years a lot of positive lesbian literature has come along, opposite to the often cheasy cheap gay writings (men ->sex). I will start putting together a list of lesbian and gay fiction, and put it on my website, or can send it to you in an email. I hope to have at least all my gay/lesbian books (100+) compiled by the end of this month (Didn't I have enough projects going already??) ---------------------------- At 20:03 06.02.97 GMT, Jennifer wrote: >I work in a bookstore, actually on in a large chain. (Good ol' Barnes and >Noble). We stock a lot of books, and I see a lot of different kinds of >thing.I also see where the prejudices lie, both in the authors and in >Corporate B&N. You're right, Heather and Cenydd (sp?), there is not enough >fiction out there about real gay/lesbian people. There is less of lesbian >literature than gay literature, but it does exist. Where Corporate always >disgusts me, is with where the books are shelved. > >The point to all my ranting against Corporate (sorry, all), is that the good >lesbian/gay literature is not shelved with the fiction novels- It's in "Gay >and Lesbian Studies". Just my two cents: sometimes it can make it easier on finding gay/lesbian novels, because they are all in one place. I personally can't really decide whether I want the books sorted into the general fiction section or in a gay/lesbian studies section. I have been to a fairly large bookstore in North Dakota (it was neither B&N nor Borders, but I just don't remember the name) that had all books sorted in. It was hell finding lesbigay stuff, if you didn't know a specific title. On the other hand, this way it is easier for some people to buy the books -nobody knows what book they are buying from the section they are standing- and straight people come across them. I personally have the talent to go to a gay bar and still pick out the only straight person there (that's the one I hit on until I realize he's straight). I don't want to know what my life would be like in the scandinavian countries, which, being liberal, in some places don't really have any gay/lesbian bars any longer. I would never find a boyfriend then I guess. Ulf -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf aka Vanyel: vanyel-+AT+-compuserve.com valdemar-+AT+-geocities.com vanyel-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de vanyelulf-+AT+-aol.com vanyel-+AT+-cutey.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2211/ http://members.aol.com/pepverlag2/iglyo/iglyo.html http://members.aol.com/pepverlag/peptop.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1090 **********************************