MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1093 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: parents by "Ulf G. Dahlmann" 2) Fluff (OAM) by "Ulf G. Dahlmann" 3) Vanyel & the OAM by "Hth." 4) rosiness (fwd) by Ken Hyde 5) Re: rosiness (fwd) by MorningStar 6) Hey y'all -- I'm back! by myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao) 7) Re: Fluff (OAM) by Ken Hyde 8) Hatebonds (was Re: Forgotten Beasts of Eld)(fwd) by Ken Hyde 9) Re: Vanyel & the OAM by Liseth-+AT+-aol.com 10) Re: lesbian rant/Shields/fluff by John Hagen 11) likeability/Perfect Ordinariness by "Katherine M. Brielmaier" 12) Hallo(I guess) by Phil Cartier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:27:33 +0100 From: "Ulf G. Dahlmann" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: parents Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970209062751.0dcf8792-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> I know there is very little true OBMisty, yet I still wanted all of you to be able to share instead of Email just to Hth. At 07:24 08.02.97 GMT, Hth wrote: >I'm not engaging in the nefarious practice of throwing academic >credentials around. But, Ulf, if you're going to put *that* many >exclamation points behind a statement, cough up your evidence My >soon-to-be degree is in European history with a focus on women's issues >and family life, and I'm not as convinced as you are that "parents >always loved their children." Parents *today* don't always love their >children, and we live in a culture with immense social pressure and >encouragement to do so. > Help, help, don't kill me. I know I should have based my writings on some more evidence. It is just that whenever somebody even dares to suggest something like 'parents didn't care for their children' at the Uni(versity), our professor for the medieval, and all the others too, jump at the person for this remark. It kind of became an automatic reaction that I picked up. In the past week I have come across some sources showing the affection for children despite the high infant mortality rate. I will try to gather them together, also talk to my professor on where I can find more evidence for this thesis. Give me a week or too, please. After that we have spring break until the beginning of April anyways, so I either have all the material I want by then, or wont get anywhere till April. Just last week I was reading an original text from about 1770 concerning a contract between a mother and a business owner on what he can do, should do, and can not do to the new apprentice (boy was that different to nowadays ) It clearly shows while it was a kind of selling your child to the business owner (sorry but the correct english term for this person just hides from me), it was meant in the best interest of the boy. (E.g. when to leave the house, what chores to do besides the apprenticeship, church, praying, almost everything in his life is governed, including the duties of the bus.-owner towards the boy). It wouldn't do any good of sending you a copy, I believe since the text is not only in older German (language wise) but also in Old German Handwriting (very few latin characters) Or read Chaucer - The Canterbury Tales - The Clerks Tale (esp. the Envoy and the Merchant Prologue which picks up on how the women supposedly were in reality) Now you got me rattleing on this topic, hey if I say something I usually have some evidence in the background (I have learned not so say unproven things). But then I hope you appreciate this input. Something you might be able to get ahold of since it is in English (Yes, I know Chaucer is English too), is a book by Peter Laslett "The World we have lost - Further explored". In the chapter on births, marriages and death he clearly states that with the lately uncovered sources (edition I have is from 1983) the old believe of less attachement to the child can not be upheld (Fathers looking after the children, while the mother is spinning (wool) - and lots of other sources and examples) If you want me to quote literally, including the sources, email me. By the way (also from Laslett' book which took it from Wrigley, E.A. and Schofield, R.S.: The Population History of England, 1541-1871: A Reconstruction. Cambridge (?) 1981), the average age for marriage for women was 25/26 and for men 27/28. Infant / Child mortality: first year about 15%, years 1 through 9 another 13%. And 72% survived !! Hope I didn't bore you too much, I know it is very borderline, I'll bring more OBMisty next time. Ulf, who will remember to bring more evidence when writing about something in the first place. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf aka Vanyel: vanyel-+AT+-compuserve.com valdemar-+AT+-geocities.com vanyel-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de vanyelulf-+AT+-aol.com vanyel-+AT+-cutey.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2211/ http://members.aol.com/pepverlag2/iglyo/iglyo.html http://members.aol.com/pepverlag/peptop.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:27:41 +0100 From: "Ulf G. Dahlmann" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Fluff (OAM) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970209062758.6fc77b5c-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de> At 20:07 08.02.97 GMT, Cennydd wrote: > Ulf wrote: >> Naw, Cennydd is just jealous that we all like Vanyel with the many >> likeable traits. > >What is there to be jealous of? It is not as if the many friends that I >have amoung the ranks of the OAM have decided that they are only capable >of liking one person. If people choose to like Vanyel, how does that in >any way diminish the amiable relations that may exist between them and me? It takes away time and admiration. One can only worship one person at a time if one is truly devouted. Ever been in a relationship with a boy who was also in a relationship with a girl (at the same time) ?? >Actually, I begin to suspect, based on the fact that the many of the >Ladies/Champions/Divers Others of the Pink Wand are also members of the >OAM, that there may be some correlation between liking Van and liking the >Mage of Green Silences? > Well, there might be, but then I am a member of neither, so this is just an outside observation. > >> And I also like 'Lendel. What is insanity anyways? > >I'm not sure if this last question was supposed to be rhetorical or not, >but one definition of "insanity" could be "draining your life-bonded >almost to the point of death so that you can gate into a private party and >release a pack of wyrsa to massacre the innocent guests." =) > It was meant as 'Isn't everybody insane in one way or another?' Ulf, a multiple personality -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf aka Vanyel: vanyel-+AT+-compuserve.com valdemar-+AT+-geocities.com vanyel-+AT+-hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de vanyelulf-+AT+-aol.com vanyel-+AT+-cutey.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/2211/ http://members.aol.com/pepverlag2/iglyo/iglyo.html http://members.aol.com/pepverlag/peptop.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 23:49:03 CST From: "Hth." To: Subject: Vanyel & the OAM Message-ID: <08FEB97.25722976.0076.MUSIC-+AT+-ACADEMIC.TRUMAN.EDU> Actually, I didn't think there was any need to attack Cennydd's statement, because it was so obviously erroneous. Of course Vanyel is likeable, and I can prove this by the number of people who like him. Case closed. Cennydd doesn't like Vanyel, which is fine. He doesn't have to; I really don't care. And he's right, it's possible to like both of them. So, no real need to bother anyone. Remember, it is not the position of the OAM that everyone should like Vanyel -- only that Vanyel was a good person. I firmly believe that a person can be good, and still not beloved by every single person on the planet. Everyone has a "type" of person they prefer being around, and not everyone's compatible. Try not to "attack" anyone from having tastes which differ from yours. Though, by the way, Cennydd, since you posted your message to the list as well as to me privately, would you do me a favor and forward my response to you to the list as well, if you still have it? HTH Wand-Sworn Champion to the Ladies of the Pink Wand Grand Dame of the Order of Amber and Marigold DragonCon Shepherd r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:33:01 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: rosiness (fwd) Message-ID: Per Heather (Hth)'s request: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 13:52:59 CST From: "Hth." To: kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu Subject: rosiness You'll have to excuse me; I have really oddball notions of "likeable." All the characters you mentioned, I like -- really like, as in would wish to have around me. Maybe I'm completely atypical in this, but I tend to prefer vivid personalities and gravitate toward people who would, to step back and look at it from an author's standpoint, make good characters. I like people in conflict, in motion, people who stand out. Probably these characters don't represent the norm of everyday gay men living everyday lives. In my mind, they really shouldn't, any more than a straight character should really represent the standard life experiences and attitudes (whatever those might be) of the straight population. In fact, my most common gripe about a fictional character is that there was nothing about them that stood out. Sherrill is a prime example, one who happens to be lesbian in this case, but I could say similar things about other gay male or straight characters. What makes her different from the girl who lives down the hall from me? What makes her unique? I don't have a clue; nothing, so far as I can tell. She's perfectly *likeable,* but innocuous and forgettable. Heck, that's how I felt about Karal, too, so there we are. I much, much prefer Vanyel or Firesong -- bitchiness and all. They are personalities, they have something that makes them intrinsically *themselves* and no one else. Stef was Stef and not to be confused with anyone else, like Alec, like Richard, etcetera. What makes them unique is a quality of the soul that has nothing to do with their sexuality; it's part of the character, related to everything, dependant on nothing. And I find comparatively few female characters who have that uniqueness, and no gay female characters. I think it comes down to a difference in taste when it comes to choosing characters we find satisfying or likeable. The situation isn't completely rosy, I admit, but I still deeply envy the way so many gay male characters are portrayed as exciting and important. I'd walk a long way to see a gay female character who was as interesting as Zach in *Drawing Blood* or as multi-layered as Alec, or Rafe in *Ecstasia,* or even the guy who dies near the beginning of Tigana (who was one of my favorite characters in the book, despite his relatively short period of screen-time). None of these characters are likeable in the conventional sense (Rafe, maybe, but all the other characters I named are deeply flawed in one way or another, as are Vanyel and Firesong), but heck, I liked them, and they made me love the books they were in. So, in other words, I think your point is well taken about the status and situation of gay men as fantasy characters. On the other hand, I personally prefer that type of character to a sweetie-pie like Karal or Sherrill or that pointless girlfriend chick in *Sing the Four Quarters,* Stacya or something like. I even prefer the doomed, crazy, and downright bizarre in real life, so we're obviously coming from different angles on personal as well as literary levels. Thanks for the book recommendation (no, I hadn't even heard of it before, though the author's name sounds dimly familiar), and I hope you run across increasingly more gay male characters who are to your taste in the years to come. Hth. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 00:04:09 -0800 From: MorningStar To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: rosiness (fwd) Message-ID: <32FD84F9.38A-+AT+-geocities.com> Hth wrote(via Cennydd) > You'll have to excuse me; I have really oddball notions of "likeable." > All the characters you mentioned, I like -- really like, as in would > wish to have around me. Maybe I'm completely atypical in this, but I > tend to prefer vivid personalities and gravitate toward people who > would, to step back and look at it from an author's standpoint, make > good characters. I like people in conflict, in motion, people who stand > out. Do you know, I have to join the ranks of "what she said." I, too, prefer the different, the unusual, the unrealistic in characters in fantasy books.. My whole point behind reading the fantasy books is to escape for normalicy, whatever my definition of normal may end up being. I like that touch of oddness, that difference... And I agree with Heather! Star actually making a comment for the first time in a while... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 02:42:26 -0600 (CST) From: myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hey y'all -- I'm back! Message-ID: <199702090842.CAA29890-+AT+-cdale3.midwest.net> Dear Listsibs in General, I, Summersong aka Akiko Hirao, have just returned from the dead, still firing on full-thrusters. I passed the pre-admission screening exam to the International Christian University High School in Tokyo, Japan, where I will be moving in March. Well, I just wanted to let y'all know I'm back, and that I have re-subbed to the list. ObMisty: I just gave my best friend a copy of the Last Herald-Mage trilogy 3-in-1 omnibus. I hope he likes it -- he said he liked the cover, with Vanyel and Yfandes. Does that count? If it doesn't, here's some double fudge sheep. Love & Logic, Summersong & Spiffy the Cat Goddess of Country Twang&Cowgirl Boots |"Cowboys and angels, leather and lace, Sorta-lady of the Pink Wand | Salt of the earth, meets heavenly grace" Knightress of the OAM | -- "Cowboys & Angels" by Garth Brooks Akiko Hirao ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:10:54 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fluff (OAM) Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Ulf G. Dahlmann wrote: > It takes away time and admiration. One can only worship one person at a time > if one is truly devouted. Ever been in a relationship with a boy who was > also in a relationship with a girl (at the same time) ?? But this is a fallacy (possibly a pathetic one, I don't know having never seen it *grin*). It belongs in the same genre of argument as "you can only love one person" or "you can't have two best friends" et cetera. And we weren't talking about worship anyway. Just about liking someone. For the record, and to follow up on Heather and Morningstar's posts about "rosiness," I admire Vanyel for his achievements in defense of King and Country and I respect him for the generally high moral character that he demonstrates. In addition, I admit that he is a reasonable attractive man (not *my* type, but de gustibus...) and does seem to care about his friends and family (a trait that I can admire). And certainly, to respond to Morningstar, I think that he does make a wonderful central character for a tragedy like LHM. However, I repeat, as a person, I don't like him. He is missing the spark of warmth and humor that makes a person likable, IMNHO. He spends too much time pushing people away and building himself into an Ice-Prince. And I realize that he thinks there are reasons that this is necessary. I am even willing to debate whether he was right in his reasoning or not (I am undecided, although I tend to feel he was not right). And I sympathize for him. However, none of this makes him any more likable. At best, it makes him more of a sympathetic character. Such is life. Still, the upshot of the whole thing is that, if I lived in Valdemar of Vanyel's time, and moved in the appropriate circles to meet and interact with him on a regular basis, I would not be interested in having him as a friend. I would deal with him as necessary and stay aloof as much as possible. And if we were ever in a situation that required more than that, I would probably end up either very unhappy and stressed out from trying to remain civil towards him (and given the precedents in my life, this is by far the most likely scenario) or I would snap and tell him to build a bridge (this option has only happened once or twice). (And yes, btw, I do realize that this suggests that I may not be the most likable person my own self...I freely concede that I have my unlikable moments). So there you have it. As a literary character, I think Van is wonderful. As a person, he drives me up a wall. I am sure that it is as much to do with personal chemistry as anything and should not be taken as saying that he is not a good person or an interesting character. > It was meant as 'Isn't everybody insane in one way or another?' No. I'm okay...I'm not real sure about the rest of you, but I am definitely okay. This is, incidentally the title of my forthcoming self-help book (if I ever decide to write it--those of you have been keeping track of my writing travails will be thinking many thoughts at this point, mostly involving airborne porcines and the chances of frozen H2O spheroids in the infernal realms). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:14:39 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Hatebonds (was Re: Forgotten Beasts of Eld)(fwd) Message-ID: I mentioned trying to find my copy of FBoE and sending the passage to the list but Deb beat me to the punch and sent me the quote in a private email. She gave me permission to forward it to the list, so here it is. For my money, this is the best description of the kind of bond created by hate. And it seems at least as strong and deep as the bond formed by love. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: DebMats-+AT+-aol.com To: kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu Subject: Re: Forgotten Beasts of Eld Cennydd, You wrote : >> Well, I direct everyone's attention to "The Forgotton Beast's of Eld" by >> Patricia McKillip. It is the classic exploration of a hate bond, and has >> one of the best descriptions of such a bond that I have every read. I >> shall try to find the exact reference and send it to the list, but I >> cannot guarantee that I shall do so this week. If you can find the book >> (many libraries will have it), the key passage is towards the end, where >> Sibyl is describing what it means to hate someone. Pulling out my autographed hb copy ( I paid a whole $7.99 - that's how old it is ) Is this the passage that you meant? (page 191) Sybel in replying to Coren about how she can drive King Drede & her husband mad, so coldly "I am not cold! You have hated, yourself - you have told me! How did your blood run, Coren? thick and hot in your heart? How did you hate? Did you nurse revenge from a tiny, moon-pale seedling in the night places in your heart, watch it grow and flower and bear dark fruit that hung ripe-ripe for the plucking? It becomes a great, twisted thing of dark leaves and thick, winding vines that chokes and withers whatever good things grow in your heart; it feeds on all the hatred your heart can bear - That is what is in me, Coren, Not all the wondrous joy and love of you can wither that night plant in me. " * * * * * Deb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:46:16 -0500 (EST) From: Liseth-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel & the OAM Message-ID: <970209134615_-1174224042-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> Actually, I don't see what everyone's so upset about. What Cennydd wrote just said that he didn't think Vanyel would be that easy to live with. Which, as far as it goes, is perfectly true. In fact, if one steps back and looks at it, most of the admirable, tragic, cut above the norm characters we all know and love in fantasy would be very *hard* to live with. People like Sherrill and Karal, those lovely forgetable supporting type characters, would be a great deal easier to live with than someone like Vanyel who keeps running of and courting the Shadow-Lover. Who knows if he's even going to come home, let alone when. Can anyone argue with that? ************************************************************ Liseth (Liseth-+AT+-aol.com) Goddess of Running Away and Hiding Under Tables First Master of the Guild of Typoists ************************************************************ "Life is easier to take than you'd think; all that is necessary is to accept the impossible, do without the indispensable and bear the intolerable." -Kathleen Norris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 16:24:47 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: lesbian rant/Shields/fluff Message-ID: <32FE327E.2A69-+AT+-snet.net> Leslac thought he could make Tarma a "Whole Woman" because he thought that her vow of celibacy was not enforced by a Goddess Bond. Boy was he an ignorant ass. Shields being disrupted by the untrained Gift. Hmmmm, that makes sense in a wierd kind of way. I know that when I first learned to play the flute, I was easily distracted and had to find a place alone, much like the grounding, centering, and shielding process. However, I play the flute very badly. You might say I never found a place to practice. Yes!!!!! A most excellent episode of ER altogether. I especially loved the OR scene with Benton realizing that Carter was going to do the appendictomy. All the scenes in the OR were cool. I love it!!!!! The Magewar - I keep trying to subscribe via vanyel or sorsha and it doesn't work at all. HELP!!!!! Lady Sara, LIG and Dryad Extraordinaire Hopeful Deity of all Marsupials, Past, Present, and Future "Resistance is futile!" Data, First Contact ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 97 20:14:14 CST From: "Katherine M. Brielmaier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: likeability/Perfect Ordinariness Message-ID: <82990.brie0030-+AT+-gold.tc.umn.edu> On Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:25:50 GMT, MorningStar wrote: >Hth wrote(via Cennydd) >> You'll have to excuse me; I have really oddball notions of "likeable." >> All the characters you mentioned, I like -- really like, as in would >> wish to have around me. Maybe I'm completely atypical in this, but I >> tend to prefer vivid personalities and gravitate toward people who >> would, to step back and look at it from an author's standpoint, make >> good characters. I like people in conflict, in motion, people who stand >> out. > >Do you know, I have to join the ranks of "what she said." I, too, >prefer the different, the unusual, the unrealistic in characters in >fantasy books.. My whole point behind reading the fantasy books is to >escape for normalicy, whatever my definition of normal may end up >being. I like that touch of oddness, that difference... And I agree >with Heather! *Kaatje rises from the depths of Overwork and, pausing to shake 18th Century English Literature out of her ear, struggles onto the shores of Non-Academia* You all might remember my search for Perfectly Ordinary (tm) people in fantasy a couple of months ago. My complain was that every blessed main character in a fantasy novel seems to have some incredibly amazing trait--magic or other, that separates them from the ranks of mere mortals, who apparently aren't fascinating enough to be the central character. It's practically a requirement: if you want to be the hero, you'd better have something up your sleeve to make you interesting; if you're an Average Joe (tm) then you're relegated to the ranks of the character foils. All the discussion about "what's normal?" and Hth's comments above remind me of my quest for that Perfectly Ordinary (tm) character--of which I have found precious few--especially in Misty's work. I just read Fire Rose, and wouldn't you know it--Rosalind just happens to have some magical aptitude! Imagine! I *knew* there had to be a reason she was in the novel. There's no such thing as "normal". No one has a normal childhood, no one is just average, no one is just "nothing special". I feel a lot of contemporary fantasy writers lose sight of this--most of them seem to think a character needs a magic sword or an amulet or weird parentage in order to justify their importance to the plot. This is ridiculous. I have never met anyone who didn't manage to surprise me somehow, who didn't teach me something different or show me something new. It frustrates me that so many fantasy writers think that regular people--sans magic, ESP, talking swords, crowns or fairy dust--are not interesting enough to be the center of a narrative. Hth's like-ability factor ties right in with my point--she likes certain characters because they're vivid, Star likes them because of the "touch of oddness". I don't notice anyone saying, "Yeah, I like Vanyel because he creates Gates and calls down lightning." We like characters because of their resemblance to ourselves, because we can say, "Hey, I do that too" or "I know someone like that." This is what I wish more Fantasy writers would realize. On that note, I humbly petition Cennydd, as Avatar to the Goddess of Nomenclature, for elevation to Goddess of the Perfectly Ordinary, on the grounds that Ordinariness needs a defender and advocate, and a reminder that being Ordinary is not a bad thing to be. *suddenly realizing that she has clambered onto a soapbox, Kaatje hastily jumps down, races to the water's edge and, taking a deep breath, dives once more into the sea* 's e do bheatha, Kaatje ********************************************************** Come, my friends, Tis not too late to seek a newer world. Push off, and sitting well in order smite The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the western stars until I die. --Alfred, Lord Tennyson ********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:50:28 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Cartier To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hallo(I guess) Message-ID: <199702100050.QAA23041-+AT+-norway.it.earthlink.net> I'v decided to sneak away from practing peices for all my lovely bands and say hello. First point of buisness(sp?) I would like to petition Lady Sophia for a position and I have no clue how to do this. So I will do it in the way Emily the invisible told me to once I'm ready which is request and tithe. The request: to become the priestess of flutes and piccolos because I happen to have been playing both for oh lets say five years. Tithe: A mahogany box inlaided with mother of pearl, rose wood, and ebony in any design you wish. The box is hand made and stores all your music, it will also provide any piece you wish at your command. I know this is an extremly short post and has nothing to do with what your talking about, buut to bad. I'm changing my name to Silverblade from Stephanie. OB Misty: I was thinking or rather wondering does Velgarth have any woodwinds, such as flute. Sorry for the short post, I'm really behind what can I say, Silverblade ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1093 **********************************