MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1098 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Run for your lives! She's baaaack!! by ajzimmer 2) Vans gifts by Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com 3) Re: Vans gifts by ajzimmer 4) Re: Vans gifts by Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Vans gifts by Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com 6) Re: Run for your lives! She's baaaack!! by Erik Wayne McKee 7) Vanyel's Gifts by Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com 8) Re: Vans gifts by "David Maginnis" 9) Liseth's survey/minor peeves/temple fluff/SoI spoiler!!!!! by "Emily the invisible" 10) Re: Vanyel's Gifts by Ken Hyde 11) Little Green Flickers of Flame =) by Ken Hyde 12) Re:Van's gifts by John Kara Pekar 13) BDays/Vans gifts by Deniz 14) Re: BDays/Vans gifts by ajzimmer 15) Re: BDays/Vans gifts by angel1-+AT+-oaktree.net 16) Poll results by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 17) Re: BDays/Vans gifts by angel1-+AT+-oaktree.net 18) Van's Gifts (Long Post) by ramsdend-+AT+-uk.psi.com 19) complaint by "Vrondi" 20) Re: Van's Gifts by Mat the Cat in Green ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:17:25 -0700 From: ajzimmer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Run for your lives! She's baaaack!! Message-ID: <330392F5.3579-+AT+-iland.net> Hi all ! I'm new to list I have been reading Kisty for years and years ;o) My name is Amy , On the topic of Van's gift, I seem to recall that in one of the books (Can't remember which at the moment) that he had the ability to hear the gift, (or something to that effect) but not the ability itself , It was the book where he went home, and there was a young boy involved, but the name is escaping at the moment, I think you are absolutely right Tammy! ~ Amy Tammy Harris wrote: > > > > On topic: Van's Bardic Gift > > Deniz said that she can't accept the theory that Van didn't know > about his Bardic Gift, because in the process of his magery, he > needed to know himself and his powers completely. Dana/Fast Fashion > responded that he never got bardic training. > > While that's true, as Deniz said, he should have known he had the > Gift, even if untrained. And the Heralds never leave a resource > untapped, so although Van couldn't have become a full-time bard, it's > an ability that could have benefited him on occasion. When Van > posed as the minstrel, I seem to recall him *choosing* to go as a > minstrel rather than as a bard. (I could be wrong, though--I have a > memory like a rusty sieve!!) > > I liked Liseth's idea when I read it, but Deniz's objections make a > lot of sense to me as well. So I dunno'. > > May your path be bright this day, > Tammy > > "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:42:46 -0500 (EST) From: Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vans gifts Message-ID: <970213164245_717558676-+AT+-emout03.mail.aol.com> Heyla, this is Gibel, and I"d just like to point out that in MPawn a,fter Vanyel manifested the gifts, Savil commented on the "Irony" of Vanyel attainning all of those gifts, INCLUDING, the Bardic Gift. And the fact that in Mpromise he "Chose" to go as a Minsrel not as a Bard. Zhai' Helleva Gibel (Artisian in Training) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:01:25 -0700 From: ajzimmer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vans gifts Message-ID: <33039D45.1817-+AT+-iland.net> Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > Heyla, this is Gibel, and I"d just like to point out that in MPawn a,fter > Vanyel manifested the gifts, Savil commented on the "Irony" of Vanyel > attainning all of those gifts, INCLUDING, the Bardic Gift. And the fact that > in Mpromise he "Chose" to go as a Minsrel not as a Bard. > Zhai' Helleva > Gibel (Artisian in Training) You kknow on second thought you are right about that, didn't a gate blow open every gift he had potential for?! SO i I guess in the end yes he had it but not the beginning because a bard was what he had orginally wanted, wasn't it? ~ Amy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:34:35 -0500 (EST) From: Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vans gifts Message-ID: <970213173428_1962661076-+AT+-emout13.mail.aol.com> Exactly so, had he had the gift at the begining he would have been a true bard. He needed two of three gifts, The Creativity to compose, The Ability to play, and/or the Bardic Gift.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:39:57 -0500 (EST) From: Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vans gifts Message-ID: <970213173957_1281250012-+AT+-emout08.mail.aol.com> Hey Gibel, I know all that you wrote is true, but should Van have been able to use the Bardic gift, even though he didin't have the training? I know he could sense it, but use it? Wind to thy wings, Melissa P.S.I know this comes up under the name of Matthew, however, I'm Melissa, Matthew's wife. Just thought you should know. Dear Melissa: If you think about it Van is trained in empathy, which is the closest gift to bardic, as a herald he won't abuse it, and as an empath he would know how to curb it to cause no harm, because he would "Feel" what he does to those he is using the gift on. Besides you think that the Bardic Collegium would allow him to go around with out teaching him at least the basics? Besides, I don't think that Breda (From the collegium) would let him. Hope that helps a bit, and thanks for the response. Gibel (Artisian in training) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:32:11 -0600 (CST) From: Erik Wayne McKee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Run for your lives! She's baaaack!! Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, ajzimmer wrote: > Hi all ! I'm new to list I have been reading Kisty for years and years > ;o) My name is Amy , On the topic of Van's gift, I seem to recall that > in one of the books (Can't remember which at the moment) that he had the > ability to hear the gift, (or something to that effect) but not the > ability itself , It was the book where he went home, and there was a > young boy involved, but the name is escaping at the moment, > I think you are absolutely right Tammy! ~ Amy The young lad in question was Medren, who, if I am remembering this right, was a bastard, but somehow related to Vanyel. Vanyel convinced Withen to Sponsor him in Bardic, with the Ashkeveron name. May your days be filled with the blessings of the Goddess (or whatever diety you may/maynot believe in) Erik #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:28:45 -0500 (EST) From: Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vanyel's Gifts Message-ID: <970213192844_-1542279584-+AT+-emout18.mail.aol.com> You Wrote: Dear Gibel, You're right, however I still have another question. COULD Van have been a full fledged Bard? I don't think so, because he only had enough of the gift to sense it in others. But his strenght as an empath was not as great as his other gifts. Maybe I'm just chasing my on tail in a circle of confusion, I don't know. But, you're absolutely right about Breda. She wouldn't let a soul go if she could use them. May you find sunshine in all the gloomy weather. Melissa Dear Melissa: I would say that he was not a full fledge bard, more likely he was tought the basics of the powers. As far as we know the only recorded time he really used his bardic gift was when fighting the shadows("Shadow Stalker" song) by the rougue bard. As a herald, specially Vanyel, he wouldn't have enough time to become a bard. But since he was proficient in music, he had a backround sound enough to make him good enough, that he would not need a full bards training. Besides logically he must have taken bard classes since by the time he et steffan he was far better than when he was chosen (he head a number of theory discussions with Steffan, discussions that only someone trained in the arts of a bard would know.) So he MUST have had some kind of consistant trainning... Gibel (Artisian in training) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:39:27 -0000 From: "David Maginnis" To: Subject: Re: Vans gifts Message-ID: <199702140038.AAA17425-+AT+-excalibur.netcom.net.uk> Hi everyone, Vanyel had all his channels blasted open when gate energy fed back thru the path of least resistance. As Sayvil said ' he has more gifts than any five herald mages put together' . As to the bardic gift it was mentioned that he might not recognise he had it. In Magics Pawn when he first arrived on his aunt sayvil's doorstep he attended bardic collegium and was a competant musician. In Magics Promise he went home and discovered Medren , the illegitimate son of Melenna and his brother Mekeal. He recognised Medren's Bardic gift and demanded training for him at Bardic collegium from his father. I think if Vanyel could recognise the gift in others then he would know he had it himself. He may have wanted training in useing that gift but with master Dark killing the herald Mages one by one could'nt take the time off to pursue it. Moonsight ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:08:58 +0000 From: "Emily the invisible" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Liseth's survey/minor peeves/temple fluff/SoI spoiler!!!!! Message-ID: <199702140207.SAA05425-+AT+-geocities.com> About surveys (esp Liseth's): Doesn't Lady Becky have a nice page with biographies of all the listmembers who want to turn one in? And aren't quite a few people _on_ that page (prolly with a whole bunch more that she needs to put up) already, with all the info she asked for? (I've sent in my info, but Lady Becky hasn't updated the page yet) Minor question: Did anyone else not get digest 1096? I read it on the web page but I haven't gotten a copy yet at either addy (and I've got 1097 already...). It's kinda making me wonder (maybe it got lost when Vanyel choked?). Two minor format peeves: If you're gonna do digest protected spoilers (ones with space in front and behind), you don't have to go whole hog and put in a full page at each end. The stuff at the end is just for those on digest who _can't_ skip the post so they know when to stop scrolling. Also, please try not to have ten- fifteen line feeds/ returns at the end of your post (I'm stuck on digest as a means of cutting down on procrastination, and this kinda sticks out). You don't really need to put digest space after your sig, do you? Deniz said (speaking as HP): >Oh, and Mat? About this departmentalizing of responsibilities among >Your Clergy... We need to talk. Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that one too. Did VAX finally eat our God's brain, or is he exhibiting the annoying lust for organization common to Comp Sci majors (or maybe his telnet program did it)? I've got it! He was procrastinating on his homework! Oh, BTW Deniz, maybe one of us should put the Newbie Fest up on our homepage (anything to avoid homework!). Or we could procrastinate about it... I like the idea of Van seriously needing to know about his Bardic Gift (or have it screw him up _bad_ when he really doesn't need the problem). It makes sense. I should be getting my greedy paws on the middle two books in Tamora Pierce's Immortals series tomorrow . I think they might last me a whole six hours... The first time thru. I really need an ObMisty for this post... Aha! Here it is! s p o i l e r s p a c e The School Up the Hill Did anyone else think that it seems kinda odd that _causing_ clouds, rain, fog, snow etc would be apprentice work? Getting em to go away, yeah, but _causing_ them? Seems like an awful lot of mass to be affected, and water has some tricky specific heat behavior... I still really like the story and how it works, but the magic kinda bugs me. d i g e s t s p a c e Emily the invisible, who has fixed the sig Priestess of Procrastination, Computing and Programming Dame of the OAM http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/7726/ ecartier-+AT+-geocities.com (the one in the header bounces) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:25:32 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel's Gifts Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > You're right, however I still have another question. COULD Van have > been a full fledged Bard? I don't think so, because he only had enough > of the gift to sense it in others. Could you please cite textual evidence to support this claim? I don't think that there is any indication in the text that Van's talent at sensing the Bardic Gift in use had anything to do with his own gift. Remember that the first time he became aware of what the Gift was (when Breda played "Windrider Unchained" at his first, and IIRC only, Bardic lesson) Van did not have the Bardic Gift at all, except in potential. This was before his channels were blasted open by the feedback of the collapsing gate in MPawn. In response to Deniz (and I swear that I will get around to your poem someday "real soon now" *grin*): I don't know that an unidentified Bardic Gift would have the same effect on Van's grounding and centering as Talia's unidentified Mind Gift did. For one thing, it isn't clear that the Bardic Gift and Healer Gifts are the same genre of gift as the Mage/Mind Gifts (the textevd that these two are related is in the first chapter of OBound). I don't remember any hints that Bards are taught to ground and center before using the Bardic Gift (for instance, there is IIRC no hint that Stefen does this before using his talent on Randale, nor does it get mentioned in relation to Medren). If grounding and centering were as important for the Bardic Gift, you would think that Misty would have mentioned it. Hmmmm. Actually, here is something that may constitute evidence that grounding and centering is either completely instinctive for the Bardic Gift or that it is unnecessary: Stefen was using both his normal Bardic Gift and his special Gift for years before he was discovered by the Bards. Yet he never seemed to have a problem with a "rogue gift." May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:41:36 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Little Green Flickers of Flame =) Message-ID: Heyla to all the newbies. Welcome to the list and allow me to introduce myself. I am the Mage of Green Silence (also known by a host of other names, some polite, some worshipful, and some quite rude). =) I have noticed that there has been an upswing in the number of posts with minimal or no snipping. I just wanted to remind people, gently, that Auntie Mel's Rules of Thumb, the Newbie Fest, and general netiquette strongly suggest that quoted material should be kept to the absolute minimum. A general ideal would be to have at least twice as much of your own text as quoted text in your posts. Barring that, an equal amount of quoted text and new text is generally considered acceptable. However,... *Dark music fills the Hall of Mist and the figure of the Mage is cast in shadows shot through with flickering emerald flamelets* Posts which have several screens (=18 lines) of quoted text and only one or two lines of new material are unequivocally in violation of netiquette and transgressors should expect a visit from the Mage of Green Silences and his patented "Flames of Retribution." Generally the first transgression will result in a shot across the bow with a blow-dryer, so don't worry. If someone chooses to continue to flaunt the norms of the List, however, they may expect a more expansive post. =) In case you are wondering at the reasons for this, extensive quoted text places a totally unecessary load on vanyel (the mailserver that Mel has been kind enough to allow us to use). In addition, it makes life harder, and more frustrating, for everyone who has to wade through large amounts of quoted text (which they usualy remember fairly well, anyway) just to find a few lines saying "me too" or something. Can you say "AAAAAaaaghh!" boys and girls? =) Anyway, I hope that I haven't intimidated anyone (I prefer to save that for later *evil mad-scientist laugh*). And thanks to everyone in advance for helping keep the list a fun and non-frustrating place for everyone. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:04:25 -0500 From: John Kara Pekar To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Van's gifts Message-ID: <199702140304.WAA17735-+AT+-sasquatch.crosslink.net> On Feb 12, Narilka wrote: >Exactly so, had he had the gift at the begining he would have been a true >bard. He needed two of three gifts, The Creativity to compose, The Ability >to play, and/or the Bardic Gift.... Obviously, Vanyel had the Ability from the beginning, but he had (in the beginning) neither Creativity nor the Bardic Gift. The Bardic Gift he got (as everyone has been quoting) if MPawn, as a result of the energy overload when the Gate energy backlashed into him, burning all his channels wide open. Melissa wrote: >Hey Gibel, > >I know all that you wrote is true, but should Van have been able to use >the Bardic gift, even though he didin't have the training? I know he >could sense it, but use it? > > > >Dear Melissa: > If you think about it Van is trained in empathy, which is the closest >gift to bardic, as a herald he won't abuse it, and as an empath he would know >how to curb it to cause no harm, because he would "Feel" what he does to >those he is using the gift on. >Besides you think that the Bardic Collegium would allow him to go around with >out teaching him at least the basics? Besides, I don't think that Breda (From >the collegium) would let him. Hope that helps a bit, and thanks for the >response. > > Gibel (Artisian in >training) > > > I think he must have gotten Bardic training of some sort, somewhere along the line. The Heralds know too well that an untrained Gift -- of *any* sort -- can be dangerous; they wouldn't have let him go untrained, even if Bardic might have (which I concur is unlikely.) Besides, they didn't need to train him in composition, since he wasn't going to be a full-time, "real" Bard; apparently he didn't need much training in playing the gittern, since he already knew how when he arrived in Haven the first time. Therefore, he would only need training in the use of the Bardic Gift, and for someone who was already a Tayledras-trained Adept (in magic), training of an additional Gift would probably have gone quickly. As Elspeth found in WFate, the discipline learned in mastering one Gift is applicable to learning others, even if the concepts and usage differ, and that discipline makes it easier/faster to master other Gifts. Wind to thy wings! Kara ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 22:59:46 -0500 From: Deniz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: BDays/Vans gifts Message-ID: <199702140403.XAA06596-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> *****WE INTERUPT THIS MISTY LIST TO BRING YOU THESE SPECIAL BIRTHDAY ANNOUNCEMENTS (dee-di-di-di-dee-di-)***** Valentine's Day (Feb. 14) marks ETITAMEH REGIT's 19th birthday! If you don't want to clutter the list with a gifting, you may send her private at chelsea.fischer-+AT+-colorado.edu Also, a (depending on where you live) one-two day warning for HERALD MICHAL's 15th birthday! THIS PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY YOUR CUSTODIAN OF THE BIRTHDAY LIST, AND WE ARE NOW RETURNING YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED MISCHIE... MAYHE... err... MISTY LIST (ha! knew I'd find it!) Van's Gifts. I didn't think I'd get back into this thread again, but I just *had* to set a few things straight, and won't write unless I feel I *absolutely* *have* to. I hope. Quite a few people have been writing about whether Van did or did not have the Bardic Gift. There also seems to be a bit of confusion, as well. I can't give any textevd, seeing as I don't have the books (sob! It's okay, Shy... *you'll* just have to look them up). Basically, here are the major discrepancies... As has been pointed out by many a reader, Van had all the major gifts, even Bardic... everything but Healing. The sentence goes something like, "Every channel she tested, with the sole exception of Healing, was open, blasted open to their fullest extent. Even, mumble about the Gods taking with one hand and returning a pittance /mumble the Bardic Gift." Could somebody who has the book please post the exact text of this sentence? IIRC, the wording showed that it wasn't that Healing wasn't open all the way, it was that Healing wasn't open at all. And, of course, he had the Bardic Gift. [Well, looks like Cen (yeah, I've heard *that* line before, Mister... what's more important, my poem or your treasured ^H^H^H... procrastination?) beat me to the punch on pointing out that you don't need to have "the Gift" to sense it in others. So, I cut out my paragraph on that. :)] Now, you might be wondering why I made such a big deal about the Healing gift and his not having it at all... well, in MPrice, he uses it on Stefen's fingers and says that he has very little, only good enough for minor (compared to battle wounds) injuries like Stef's fingers. He also uses it to depress Medren's immune system so that he comes down with the spots to stay away from Jervis. And, of course, when he's trapped in that spell up in the barbarian lands and the amateur Healer looks at him, he sees that Van's wrapped in a fine web of green Healing, holding every major wound together, or something like that. So basically, Van first has Bardic and no Healing, then (after years pass and our memory blurs) Van has no Bardic (or so he tells Medren) but a smidgeon of Healing. It's my personal theory that this is an authorial blooper, because there's no other way I can explain it. You guys have already read my argument as to why I think he would know whether or not he had those gifts. simple, eh? Cen brought up a good point, but I won't be able to respond to it for a while... I need to get off line soon. Maybe tomorrow, or maybe someone else will argue it. Basically, my gut reaction is that it wouldn't be as big a problem to have an untrained ungrounded Bardic Gift alone as it would be to have that same untrained gift in a Mage, especially one working with the amounts of sheer Power that Van does. Emily said: >Oh, BTW Deniz, maybe one of us should put the Newbie Fest up on our >homepage (anything to avoid homework!). Or we could procrastinate >about it... *novel* idea, Em! Hmmm... but I still want it to be available as an e-mail, as well. Not everybody can spend the time to read it on-line. Okay. The next time I update my page (tomorrow afternoon, I think) the Newbie-Fest (along with instructions for saving it) will be posted at the following URL. http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/newbiefest.html hmmmm... well, I just returned from trying to do a little on it now, and it looks like Geocities is testing their new software again. Well, okay... tomorrow afternoon will be if I'm lucky- if not, it'll be up on Sunday some time :) love, Deniz Sarikaya, who is still working on a new sig :) Confused about anything on this list? Mail me and ask for the NewbieFest! >dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA< >freakola-+AT+-geocities.com< >http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:37:43 -0700 From: ajzimmer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BDays/Vans gifts Message-ID: <3303FA27.B00-+AT+-iland.net> Deniz wrote:> simple, eh? > > Cen brought up a good point, but I won't be able to respond to it for a > while... I need to get off line soon. Maybe tomorrow, or maybe someone > else will argue it. Basically, my gut reaction is that it wouldn't be as > big a problem to have an untrained ungrounded Bardic Gift alone as it would > be to have that same untrained gift in a Mage, especially one working with > the amounts of sheer Power that Van does. > > >Well, my reaction would be that anyone who was as well trained as Van was, and as capable as he was in control of his abilities, wouldn't have a problem controling the Bardic Gift...and since his channels were blasted open in such a manner, and Savil did test him and they trained him in his gifts, wouldn't this one be covered? I'll tell you all I am enjoying this discussion immensely, as you are all bringing up excellent points =o) Amy~ who is anxiously awaiting a response on this one ~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:05:32 +0000 From: angel1-+AT+-oaktree.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BDays/Vans gifts Message-ID: <199702140705.CAA08337-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net> > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 05:04:53 GMT > Reply-to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > From: ajzimmer > To: angel1-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net > Subject: Re: BDays/Vans gifts > Deniz wrote:> simple, eh? > > > > Cen brought up a good point, but I won't be able to respond to it for a > > while... I need to get off line soon. Maybe tomorrow, or maybe someone > > else will argue it. Basically, my gut reaction is that it wouldn't be as > > big a problem to have an untrained ungrounded Bardic Gift alone as it would > > be to have that same untrained gift in a Mage, especially one working with > > the amounts of sheer Power that Van does. > > > > > >Well, my reaction would be that anyone who was as well trained as Van was, and as capable as he was in control of his abilities, wouldn't have a problem controling the Bardic Gift...and since his ch> I'll tell you all I am enjoying this discussion immensely, as you > are all bringing up excellent points =o) > Amy~ who is anxiously awaiting a response on this one > ~ All of the Gifts are going to be under control, and grounded, just because Van is. Van isn't stupid and neither are his teachers, and I'm not really certain, but I''l bet once you ground and center that this takes care of everything. Fast Fashion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:06:34 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Poll results Message-ID: <4S7AzwHqhFjM088yn-+AT+-cet.com> A couple of weeks ago I proposed a poll in an attempt to determine if there was a correlation between liking/hating LotR and liking/hating the Empire stuff in Storms. The results were (only 16 responses) A) Loved Both 10 B) Hated Both 3 C) Loved LotR/Hated Empire 2 D) Hated LotR/Loved Empire 1 It's also of interest (to me at least) that the person in Catagory D said they would have been in A before a friend pointed out "the christian Imagery" in LotR. This one has me scratching my head in pusselment, I must admit. I consider myself a devout Christian and a semi-rabid Tolkien fan but I have ***NEVER** seen even a shred of Cristianity in Tolkien's work! So am I stupid or does this go along with the people who (mistakenly) think that "the scouring of the Shire" is about the state of England at the end of WWII? Sorry to be so long getting theis off, I know I said I'd post it before Lent but I came down with the flu last Saturday and I'm just starting to recover. Missed the Ash Wednesday service yestreday. David Tiffany, Doge to tyopts ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:13:05 +0000 From: angel1-+AT+-oaktree.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BDays/Vans gifts Message-ID: <199702140713.CAA08381-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net> > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 04:28:57 GMT > Reply-to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > From: Deniz > To: angel1-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net > Subject: BDays/Vans gifts > > Van's Gifts. I didn't think I'd get back into this thread again, but I > just *had* to set a few things straight, and won't write unless I feel I > *absolutely* *have* to. I hope. > > Quite a few people have been writing about whether Van did or did not have > the Bardic Gift. There also seems to be a bit of confusion, as well. I > can't give any textevd, seeing as I don't have the books (sob! It's okay, > Shy... *you'll* just have to look them up). Basically, here are the major > discrepancies... As has been pointed out by many a reader, Van had all the > major gifts, even Bardic... everything but Healing. The sentence goes > something like, "Every channel she tested, with the sole exception of > Healing, was open, blasted open to their fullest extent. Even, mumble > about the Gods taking with one hand and returning a pittance /mumble the > Bardic Gift." > > Could somebody who has the book please post the exact text of this > sentence? IIRC, the wording showed that it wasn't that Healing wasn't open > all the way, it was that Healing wasn't open at all. And, of course, he > had the Bardic Gift. > > [Well, looks like Cen (yeah, I've heard *that* line before, Mister... > what's more important, my poem or your treasured ^H^H^H... > procrastination?) beat me to the punch on pointing out that you don't need > to have "the Gift" to sense it in others. So, I cut out my paragraph on > that. :)] > > Now, you might be wondering why I made such a big deal about the Healing > gift and his not having it at all... well, in MPrice, he uses it on > Stefen's fingers and says that he has very little, only good enough for > minor (compared to battle wounds) injuries like Stef's fingers. He also > uses it to depress Medren's immune system so that he comes down with the > spots to stay away from Jervis. And, of course, when he's trapped in that > spell up in the barbarian lands and the amateur Healer looks at him, he > sees that Van's wrapped in a fine web of green Healing, holding every major > wound together, or something like that. > > So basically, Van first has Bardic and no Healing, then (after years pass > and our memory blurs) Van has no Bardic (or so he tells Medren) but a > smidgeon of Healing. It's my personal theory that this is an authorial > blooper, because there's no other way I can explain it. You guys have > already read my argument as to why I think he would know whether or not he > had those gifts. > > simple, eh? > A note: Savil and evryone else was under a lot of stress when they decided about all of Van's Gifts, yes? Ok, a simple suggestion is that they made mistakes. When Van healed, not all of the Gifts stayed open all the way, he may have lost some abilities and gained others. People are so complex, they expect everything to be complex. Look at religion, we deliberately make things difficult just to spite one another. If Jesus was here and said, "Give twelve fishes to the poor," the arguments would go; Give twelve fishes to every poor person, give the twelve fishes divided by x to the poor, give 12 fishes to the deserving poor... STOP BEING COMPLEX. The simplest solutions can be the correct ones! Fast Fashion ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:29:18 +0000 From: ramsdend-+AT+-uk.psi.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Van's Gifts (Long Post) Message-ID: <199702141529.PAA06717-+AT+-staff.uk.psi.com> Okay I am coming out of me long Lurker mode as this is something that has bugged me for a long time. Prepare for lots of long text quote to point out Misty's long contradictions as to what gifts Vanyel posseses. Quote 1: Magic's Pawn, page 215 in my copy --------------------------------------------------------- Vanyel had them all. Each channel she tested-with the sole exception of healing-was open; most of them had been forced open to the widest extent. The boy had Mindspeach, Fetching, FarSight, ForeSight as much empathy a Tylendel had shown, even enough Firestarting to ensure he would never need a tinderbox again, and the all important Mage-Gift. His Mind-speech was even of both types. Thought-sensing and Projection. And -irony of ironies- as if the gods were taking with one hand and offering pitance as compensation - the Bardic Gift This is the initial list of gifts that Savil sees after Van was blasted open by the gate. However later on there is a lot of contradictions as to weather he does or does not posses the Bardic/Healing gift. Quote 2: Magic's Promise, Page 133 -------------------------------------------- "I have just enough of the Healing-Gift that I can make you sick" Vanyel to Medren when he is getting him a way out of 'sparring' with Jarvis. Erm, now I could be wrong here, but didn't Misty say one book ago that Van didn't have the Healing gift? Not even a trickle? Quote 3: Magic's Price, page 49 --------------------------------------- Vanyel had become perforce something of a herbalist - over the years. All to often he, or someone he was with, had been hurt with no Healer in reach. He had a touch of the Healing gift, but not reliable, and not enough to heal anything serious Yet more textevd that Vanyel does posses the healing gift despite what Savil Saw earlier. Now onto the bardic bit..... Quote 4: Magic's promise, page 94 ------------------------------------------ "Medren - Medren!" he said insitantly enough ro make the boy turn back, "You are better than I was, even at fifteen. In a few years you are going to better than I could ever hope to be if I practiced every hour of my life. You have the bardic gift lad and that is something no amount of training can give" Now why this dosen't speciffically say Vanyel doesn't have the bardic gift it does sort of hint in that direction. ie You are going to be better than I can hope to be as I don't have the gift. I suppose you could read it as my gift is a week and pathetic thing next to yours. Quote 5: Magic's Promise, page 183 -------------------------------------------- "No," Vanyel said honestly, "I didn't have the gift. And it has taken me a while but I have made up for the lost feeling. You didn't take anything away from me, not really." The point of contention the last time this topic came up was the word 'have'. Did it mean he didn't have the gift now or he has it now, but didn't then. Personally I go for the former. CONCLUSION Conclusion is that Misty messed up when she originally listed his gifts. She said he didn't have healing which he most plainly does and that had did have Bardic gift which is open to debate. IMO he dosen't. There is no textevd showing him actually using the gift which I can see, and while there is no direct quotes showing that he dosen't have it there are enough hints to the fact he dosen't. Phew, anyone actually get to the end of all that? Opinions? David Ramsden PSINet Customer Services http://www.uk.psi.com http://support.uk.psi.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:22:39 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: complaint Message-ID: <199702141530.KAA23847-+AT+-student1.concord.wvnet.edu> I hate to have to say this, but please people, please, when you reply to a braided message, and you are only replying to part of it fine. You cut out the extra text. lovely. BUT, ALSO EDIT THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN REPLYING TO A BRAID! it's irritating to see the subject line: Van/OAM/This/That/The Other Thing/And More and then open the message and all it has is the part about Van. See, the only subject line neccessary for this was Re:VAn. ta-da Sorry, I know most of ya'll don't do this, but it does happen pretty frequently. -Vrondi (Bard of Amber and Marigold) Data:"I may be chasing an untamed ornothoid without cause." Dr Crusher: "A wild goose chase?" Data: "Precisely. http://edweb.concord.wvnet.edu/~deanca/book ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:51:07 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Gifts Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 ramsdend-+AT+-uk.psi.com wrote: Just a short post here, to comment on David'd textevd. > Quote 5: Magic's Promise, page 183 > -------------------------------------------- > "No," Vanyel said honestly, "I didn't have the gift. And it has > taken me a while but I have made up for the lost feeling. You didn't > take anything away from me, not really." > > The point of contention the last time this topic came up was the word > 'have'. Did it mean he didn't have the gift now or he has it now, > but didn't then. Personally I go for the former. I've always interpreted that statement as "I didn't have the Gift back then, so I couldn't have been a Bard anyway." If he had meant that he has never had the Gift, he'd most likley have said, "I don't have the Gift." When he says "didn't", that's in the past tense. IMHO, he's implying that even though he has it now, he didn't then. On another note, did one of the stories in SoI remind anyone else of Van? The one with the Healer student. (no specifics for two reasons: 1 -- avoiding spoilers. 2 -- I don't have the book here, and I can't _remember_ any specifics. ) Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"Hey diddle-dee, answer me this riddle, Adept, God of Procrastination | hey diddle-do, tell me what you will. Heathen #149, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | Dance all day with the Cat and the mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | Fiddle. Come and lay with the Heather http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | on the hill" --- Heather Alexander ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1098 **********************************