MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1126 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) by Ken Hyde 2) bonds/Barbie by Faranheit-+AT+-aol.com 3) re: SilverG by Gessika Rovario 4) Barbies/Misty's Music by ahri-+AT+-juno.com (Not Home) 5) Okay, so I lied -- THIS is my last post for a while! by myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao) 6) Re: Musical instruments in Valdemar by Lydia Hales 7) Re: Unexpected Song/Misty's music/keyboards/other musical notes (sorry! I couldn't resist!) by Lydia Hales 8) Re: The Last Straw. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 9) Sheep by Melanie Dymond Harper 10) RE: I'm baack, the Last Straw by Christi Redeker 11) Re: Barbie Clothes by Elisiande-+AT+-aol.com 12) Last Straw by Beverly Steele 13) Re: Sheep by DC Kincaid 14) RE: Last Straw by Christi Redeker 15) Delurk and essay by "Jon-+AT+-han" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:06:57 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Rev. Richard E. Smith wrote: > sadly tis true the herald clothes are out there, see firebird, Misty > listed below Last straw (in the Web page). It is SEXIST TOO, Ken as a > herald barbie as something else. Barbie (actually "Esmerelda" from Disney's Hunchback) is a Shin'a'in warrior, so I fail to see why that is "sexist." Are you suggesting that the Shin'a'in are less important/worthwhile than Heralds? That by making the Barbie figure a Shin'a'in, she is being placed in the "inferior" role? I would love to see someone try to explain to Tarma that being Shin'a'in makes her inferior to Heralds. For that matter, I would like to see someone try and explain that to someone like Talia or Vanyel. Or better yet, to Kero. *hee-hee* Is there any indication that a "Herald Barbie" is not going to show up? Actually, from the wording of the advert, I would assume that there will be a Herald outfit for Esmerelda. In addition, they specifically ask what other types of outfits people would like to see, so if a Herald Barbie is a "must-have," people can ask for it. Incidentally, I have to say that all the Barbie bashing that has been going on seems a little sad. I liked Barbie, back in the day. I can't say that, as an adult, I find her that appealing, but that is not to say that I think she is evil or anything. There are a lot of toys from my childhood that I don't find particularly appealing anymore, precisely because I outgrew them. Yes, I am aware that there are some negative aspects to Barbie (her physical/anatomical impossibility, for example). But she isn't the anti-christ. Personally, I think that Misty and Barbie are a match that was made in heaven: popular fantasy (genre) meets popular fantasy (icon). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:56:07 -0500 (EST) From: Faranheit-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: bonds/Barbie Message-ID: <970306195228_604488130-+AT+-emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-06 15:14:31 EST, you write: << I think that shows that you are really in tune with each other, I do that to my mom all the time. >> My mom and I do that too. I think it might be the fact that she and I are truly, best friends, as well as mother and daughter. There really is nothing I can't ask about or confide in her and it's the same for her. I'm not saying it's like a friendship with someone my own age, but I feel so we're much closer than some other families are. <> I agree with Cennydd. I really don't see what's wrong with Barbie; other than the fact that *no* woman alive has such a figure. I *liked* playing with Barbie when I was little. I grew out of it, eventually. I do have a friend who still enjoys Barbie, she doesn't play with them, but she likes collecting the dolls, clothing, etc. She did a *fantastic* video on Barbie for a school project, finding background on the dolls, interviewing people who work in such a business, going to a museum on dolls and getting their interviews and opinions too. Peony Dame of the OAM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 17:03:08 -0800 From: Gessika Rovario To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: SilverG Message-ID: Hi all. This is my second week on the list and my first post. This has got to be the earliest I've ever de-lurked on any list I've ever been on. Emily said: >Except for some of the co-authored stuff, I'd say SilverG is the worst Misty book ever. Ok, now I'm a bit behind in my reading, so I'm not up to the SilverG yet, but I thought it *was* a co-authored book. If it wasn't, what could I have been thinking of. {Don't answer that. } Caramel and Strawberry Sheep to all. And to all a good night. ;^} Gessi gcr-+AT+-pcsi.cirrus.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 19:20:39 EST From: ahri-+AT+-juno.com (Not Home) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Barbies/Misty's Music Message-ID: <19970306.191916.7151.0.Ahri-+AT+-juno.com> Kara writes: >I haven't had a chance to read "The Last Straw" on the Firebird >website yet, so I'm reserving comment. But on the subject of Barbies -- >aaargh! Ugh! Yuck! And I haven't even *seen* the things yet! The mere idea Strangely, I don't hate the thought so much. I don't care for Barbie dolls, but I wouldn't mind having an accurate example of clothing worn in Valdemar. I *do* own two dolls, a Barbie and a Ken (renamed Kaleen and Gareth), and the only reason I've kept them all this time is because of the memories. No, my friend and I did not sit around oohing and ahhing over Barbie going on a date, we used to act out the stories we wrote with the dolls (hey, we were children! Shadap! :) ). I do admit, a strange idea for Barbie clothes... but don't say ick to the dolls, comment on the clothes! :) --------------- Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras writes: >"Herald's Cread" >I cringed when I heard that one, it was like an Austrian beer song. Ugh... I do the same thing to Herald's Creed when singing along as to with My Lady's Eyes... exaggerate every motion and every part of the song. And yes, I can quite well imagine the Herald's swaying back and forth, drunk, etc. :) Sorry for the short message, I have sick animals here and barely had time to get this one done. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Though my soul may set in darkness/I will rise in perfect light I have loved the stars too fondly/to be fearful of the night." Blessed be, Ahri-+AT+-Juno.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:16:47 -0600 (CST) From: myktshr-+AT+-ldd.net (miyako hirao) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Okay, so I lied -- THIS is my last post for a while! Message-ID: <199703070316.VAA13558-+AT+-cdale3.midwest.net> Hey y'all! The subject line of this braid should have read: Taeyana/Lifebond songs/Validity of Valspeak My buddy Taeyana wrote: >>>Anyway, I guess this is just me saying hello, and that I am really not sane, One of my slogans is "Alcatraz, Outpatient, Pshyco Ward" ::grins:: YAAY! YOU'RE HERE! YOU DECIDED TO DELURK!!!!! I can vouch for her AOPW slogan -- she actually has a shirt (or two or three) that says that. She's not sane at all -- and y'all thought *I* was crazy! And she *really* does have one blue and one green eyes. Anyhoo, ((((((((((((((((((((((((TAEYANA)))))))))))))))))))))))))))! Welcome to the family! RENTROCKSRENTRULESRENTISTHEBESTRENTROCKSRENTRULES! Gee, what do you think I'm going to talk about now? On the thread of lifebond songs, "Your Eyes" from Rent, IMNSHO is the perfect lifebond song, especially these lines: "Your eyes, the ones that took me by surprise the night you came into my life" There's also a song that isn't about lifebonds in general but is about how Stef thought that Van might change his mind about their relationship. It's "Unchained Melody": "Time can do so much; are you still mine? I need your love, I need your love, God speed your love to me." Actually I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I've never heard this song before LeAnn Rimes recorded it (*sigh* she's so great -- I'm probably ticking off one of the Ancients of the List with pointed ears). VALSPEAKVALSPEAKVALSPEAKVALSPEAKVALSPEAKVALSPEAK KC wrote: Misty obviously had been exposed to speakers of ValSpeak, because never once while reading the book, did I, *with apologies to all* a former Val Boy, ever once think any of the characters speech patterns were unreal or unbelievable. Now, granted that JH is not the best of Misty's work, but if your only problem with it is the way the kids talked, well, I sorry, but it is a form of speech still currently in use. You don't have to like it, but you should be aware that it is valid.<<< That's not the only problem I had -- it just seemed to me that the characters popped out of Melrose Place (or whatever the hell is *in* right now) with that ValSpeak thing. I know it's still currently in use, and maybe language is evolving (or I would like to say, de-evolving) into something different. Look how different English is from what was spoken two hundred years ago. I'm not saying it's invalid or unreal; I just think that ValSpeak is shallow, and to quote a friend of mine, "a crime to the English language." (Taeyana can guess just who this "friend" is, can't you?) RENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENTRENT I remember discussing *something* about Rent in the Bower... Anyhoo, I'm completely addicted right now! It's all I'm listening to these days. (this is a *real* shocker) I'm listening to this over LeAnn Rimes. May Jonathan Larson rest in peace and may he not haunt me for butchering "Over the Moon". YES, I SING THIS, or try to, at least. I know y'all are laughing out there, those of you who know this song. "Only thing to do is jump over the moon, MOO WITH ME!" Sorry. Sheep to everyone -- double if you can tell the clones from the originals. That's it for about a month -- I think. I might post again with a formal temporary farewell. By the way, where *are* the ancients of the list? Kory? Jake? Cennydd? Love & Logic, Summersong & Spiffy the Cat, Goddess of Country Twang&Cowgirl Boots, Sorta-lady of the Pink Wand, Knightress of the OAM, Trekker Extraordinare "When freedom was waiting down at the station; all I had to do was make up my mind" -- "One Way Ticket" by LeAnn Rimes Akiko Hirao ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:23:21 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Musical instruments in Valdemar Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Catherine A Murdoch wrote: > > Can anyone tell me if they use any sort of keyboard instrument(s) in > Valdemar, e.g. piano, organ or equivalent thereto? I can't recall any > mention of such in any of the Valdemar books but my memory may be faulty. > > Catherine > > -- -- > Catherine Murdoch | Internet: ulcam-+AT+-dewey.newcastle.edu.au > Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 217147 > University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 > > "When I play with my cat, who knows but that she regards me as a plaything > even more than I do her?" > Michel de Montaigne, French essayist > > > > >> I don't remeber seeing a reference to keyboard instruments either. I guess as a musician, I always pictured the music to be similar to the Baroque/ Classical Eras of RW music. So, I always invisioned instruments like a piano-forte, clavichord, pipe organ (16thC>), harpsichord. Also, small orchestras (either just string or including brass, woodwinds, and percussion). Also cool instruments such as hand horn, sackbut,pommer, krummhorns, shawms, korkholt, rauschpfief, trumpet(valveless, of course), and recorders. Along with lutes, violins, etc that are mentioned by Misty. As it was in the RW, the orchestras were on a patronage system. There would be at least one in the Palace. Of course, this is all fantasy and speculation on my part, and I'm quite probably off base. But a world w/o an orchestra!! UGH! Sorry, I have music on the mind. 78 more days until my Senior Recital Obmisty Does anybody know if there are guitars in Velgarth? Lady Lydia Priestess of Music Keeper of Brass Instruments ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:35:28 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Unexpected Song/Misty's music/keyboards/other musical notes (sorry! I couldn't resist!) Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > Re: keyboards? > I don't recall a single mention of keyboard instruments anywhere in any of > the Velgarth books. Gitterns (which I assume are basically guitar-like); > 12-string gitterns, which are invented during MPromise by the > instrument-maker who sells Van an instrument for Medren (can't remember > whether it was a lute or a gittern); lutes; pipes of various sorts > (shepherds', which might be like panpipes, and probably something like > recorders); drums, IIRC the Midwinter celebration Talia attends with Jadus, > and Tarma uses one as well; harps, like My Lady; flutes, maybe? but no > keyboard instruments. I suspect it's only a matter of time before one of > the artisan-Blues with an interest in music comes up with something, > though. Come to think of it, I don't recall any woodwinds, either, other > than pipes and maybe flutes. There must be some sort of brass instruments, > or at least horns (made of horn); those are indispensible in war. >> I read something about hunting horns in BTS. I had always pictured this instrument to be what my instrument was in its ancient history,not so ancient as an actual horn made of horn, but rather a single hooped instrument with a fixed mouthpiece. It would operate on the overtone seires, generating various pitches as the air speed, lip postions were changed. Thus one could acheive "brought to bay" and the various differing hunting calls. Somehow, this primitive hunting horn was introuduced to the orchestra, and eventually the F Horn was born. I also remeber in BTS, Kerowyn's bugler doing a "good imitation of a young bugler in a panic" or words to that effect. I think from that (sorry, no textved tonite, I don't have my book here), that there were bugles. > > One thing I've been speculating about is what the music of the different > peoples sounds like. I've assumed that Valdemaran music is basically like > British or Appalachian folk music, because of the style of most of the > lyrics at the end of the books. But what scales/modes do the Shin'a'in > use? How about the Tayledras? What earthly music might their two musics > sound most like? (I know there are some Shin'a'in songs in V&H, but I > haven't heard them, which I guess leaves me free to speculate. ) What > about the Karsites? Heavily religious cultures often use a lot of music in > their worship, so I would expect the Sun Priests to chant Gregorian-style, > if nothing else. Anyone else want to make a suggestion? > >> Oh, I do hope they have Gregorian Chant-ish type music!! That stuff is so awesome! Boy, I seem to have music-babbled at you again. Sorry 'Tis my passion right now. ObMisty How many Herlads are there? The only refernces that I can find have to do with the students. Lady Lydia Keeper of Brass Instruments ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 97 18:56:44 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Cc: r618-+AT+-academic.truman.edu, kerry_mealing-+AT+-il.us.swissbank.com Subject: Re: The Last Straw. Message-ID: <9703070856.AA13109-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Heya all, Just my two cents on Misty's firebird essay. Yay Misty! Stand on your dignity. I admire her for writing it myself. That said, I want to actually reply to Heather's response 'cos I think she raises some valid points. More importantly, I know Heather's opinions are given lots of weight around here and most of the time I agree with What She Said (Heck, I coined the phrase). But, I agree so often that I tend to feel the times when I disagree are moderately important. So here it is. > I'm sorry, guys, but I can't do this anymore. The essay titled "The > Last Straw" just struck me as pointlessly, uselessly hateful. If its > purpose was to cure delusional people, it was doomed from the start; > they're delusional *because* they don't relate well to reason and logic. > If its purpose was to let off stress by insulting people at length and > in caps on a public forum, well, I guess it did fairly well, but I don't > see much that's "adult, compassionate, and responsible" about that. I didn't see it as uselessly hateful, to be honest. It struck me, no pun intended, more as the slap across the face that you give to someone having hysterics - a sort of written "Hey! Wake up and smell the roses!". Nor do I agree it was doomed from the start. People aren't delusional or non-delusional - they range from level-headed, hard-nosed agnostic sceptics to those with the loosest touch with reality and a host of personal beliefs that would make most governments policies seem internally self-consistent. It's a grey scale. Most of us fall somewhere in between, and any psychologist will tell you that minor delusions aren't necessarily a bad thing. Point being, Misty wasn't aiming her diatrebe at the people who've gone right off the deep-end, she was talking to that grey middle. The ones looking for something, the ones who are most vulnerable to the malicious manipulations of the twisted folk out there. We're talking supermarket tabloid believers here folks. > If its purpose was to explain to her friends and readers the state of > the Diana Tregarde series, it could have been done without the ranting > and venom. How about: "Sorry to let down those of you who've really > been wanting me to finish the Diana Tregarde series, but I think I'm not > going to. First of all, they're not selling well, and I think it would > be a mistake from a business point of view. Secondly, I've had a lot of > run-ins with some pretty disturbing people regarding the series, up to > and including death threats. It's just not worth it to me, and I don't > even feel good about it anymore." No name-calling and no lecturing about > What's Wrong With Some People These Days. That serves no purpose, and > it's petty. That said, what she wrote was actually well put together. It was hard-hitting, well structured and points that she hammered home. Yes, what she wrote -was- harsh, but so is a slap in the face. The world is -not- a pretty place, and that belief and the belief in some delusions, is just plain dangerous, both to the person and the people around them. Sure, believe people are basically good, at heart - but don't go wandering down dark alleys in bad parts of town at night. Sure, believe that a deity will look after you, if you have faith - but don't test it by jumping in front of trains. Thing is, it's fine to have beliefs, but for pete's sake - one the things that makes us intelligent is our ability to -test- things against the real world. To reason. Thing is, Misty wasn't running away from the problem, at least, not without a parting shot at the source of it. She wasn't saying "Okay, certain people have problems with this, therefore I won't do it." - she was saying "Hey, wake up and realize it's -your- problem." in an effort to reach at least a few people. Because she's got friends in the industry too; and she obviously doesn't want to see them hurt either. > I have no real respect for her anymore as a writer. I think that at one > time, ten years ago, she was writing some pretty gutsy, thoughtful, > heartfelt stuff, but I haven't read anything like that from her in many > moons, and I'm rather tired of paying her salary when I don't care for > her books. I think she patronizes her readers and presents simplistic > descriptions of and solutions for the exceedingly complex problems that > arise when humans encounter other humans. I think her characters are > for the most part dry and predictable: they are either good, in which > case they do the Right Thing, or they are bad, in which case they do the > Wrong Thing. Either way, there's no serious thought given to why people > make the choices they make. I can't really argue with this one, given that I've been tending in this direction of late myself. The only thing that comes to mind is that scene in CoTN, where Di Tregarde is busy writing hack-romance novels. Remember how she has to churn them out for a fixed plot, to make ends meet? Remember how her only leeway was to be more subtle and to play with the characters, to give them a sense of humour and a bit of spark etc? I wonder if Misty sees herself trapped in that role somewhat - having to hack out form-plots - a certain number of books per year, to a proven audience - to pay the bills - and that all she dares change are the small details? If that's the case, she, perhaps, needs to sit down and take her courage in her hands, as a writer. As someone supporting a home, and pets and the like, that actually takes a hell of a lot of courage -> who is -she- to risk her whole family's livelihood by playing with her artistic style? I can sympathize with that an awful lot - it takes a lot of courage to put not only your -own- income on the line, but the rest of your family's as well. That takes either a lot of support, and/or a certain amount of arrogance and lack of compassion. Sure, it's fine if you get it right -first time-, but if it takes a bit of fiddling, what'll pay the bills in the meantime? Barbara Cartland made a heck of a fine living doing standard plot work. Now, I happen to think that her writing would be worlds and away better if she did that. But I'm not in her shoes and I've seen good people trapped in similar situations in mundane jobs; and I'm not going to condemn them, or her, for their decisions. It's a matter of priorities. Remember folks, Arrows of the Queen, was her first real success story and you can't really get much more Young Adult. (Nice books, good read, looking at teen issues, definite teen target audience). I think - I hope, she'll change her mind on that one. I miss the Misty that wrote LHM. I have books of Misty's sitting at home that I've yet to read, simply because I can't be bothered. > Well, I could go on and on, but the point is that from a writer who has > neither impressed me with her writing skills nor dazzled me with the > depth and clarity of her ideas, I have trouble stomaching a long > diatribe on how to quit being a loser. There was no need for it, and I > thought it violated the spirit of one of Diana Tregarde's own ideas > regarding right living: "If it isn't true, going to do some good, or > spread a little love around, don't say it." Apparently "well, it's true" > excuses saying something that isn't doing any good and isn't enhancing > the cause of increased love in the world. Which wasn't quite how I > interpreted that line, but I guess I was wrong. Well, I agree with you re the depth and clarity of her ideas, though I think I disagree re the writing skills (though I do think she hasn't evinced them in her later works). Re stomaching how to quit being a loser -> it wasn't aimed at you. Re the Diana Tregarde bit - the author is not her character - she doesn't necessarily have to hold to, or believe things that her point-of-view characters believe. In this case, I think she does, and I'd suggest that actually it hit two out of three, arguably three out of three of those criteria. It's obviously true given the facts Misty threw out and more tellingly, what Teri Lee said in the addendum. It might do some good, if it shocks a few people who are susceptible to cult-style brainwashing back a little closer to reality. [1] And thirdly, not increasing love - that just doesn't fly - Misty is, apparently, furious because she, her family, her friends and her family are being put at risk by the delusional fringe. She's reacting the way she does, out of a sense of love, both in the specific instance of those close to her, and the general case of her fans. [1] And really, if there are cults, or warped covens based on Misty's ideas, a diatrebe from Misty is one of the obvious ways of knocking out their support structures; and also, perhaps, she might be one of the few people capable of still reaching these people with any semblence of rationality. Misty's not PC in and of herself. (Note: I mean this in the sense of being one to pander and water things down for public preferences). Never has been as far as I can tell. She wrote LHM at a time when it wasn't really acceptable in the mainstream to be gay, and certainly wasn't acceptable for a Hero in a book to be gay. It's not reasonable to expect her to pander to public preferences when she's got a point to make, and expect her to phrase it politely and unoffensively. -Especially- when it's likely that the point may be better made, to the target audience, if it's phrased harshly. Lets give her an ounce of credit here - she does have writing skills, even if she hasn't shown them much lately. If she, or -any- writer, chooses to make their point so harshly, it's probably a pretty safe bet that they've chosen to do so. They above all, know the power of words. >From the sounds of things, she and her associates have been through a lot of bad experiences, and had to be put up with a lot of crap (for want of a better word). So -what- if she wants to try and stop it again. Good on her for making the effort I'd say. Read Teri Lee's addendum. She's a third party who's close to the heart of matters and she puts things just as strongly as Misty does. Say what you like about Misty's writing (hey, I can rant for and against that in another post), but I have -nothing- but respect for the lady as a person. > When I think back on it, there's sort of a triad of things I feel like I > take from this place, thanks to you folks (heck, I'm just Celtic enough > to believe that everything comes in threes if you just scrunch them > around right): wisdom, love, and faith in the people around me. I'd > like to come back, sometime, when I feel more in balance and more able > to contribute constructively to your discussions. I hope so. But in > the meantime, I wish you all good things. Take care Heather - you'll be missed from here lots. Hopefully you'll rejoin again sooner or later. A general note of my own - I'm know sure how much longer I'll be able to stick around either folks - work is taking increasingly more of my time and I find myself unable to keep up with the flood of mail, let alone actually find time to contribute significantly. I'll see how it goes over the next week. Regards, Kerry.. Come, my friends, Tis not too late to seek a newer world. Push off, and sitting well in order smite The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths Of all the western stars until I die. --Alfred, Lord Tennyson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:15:27 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: Sheep Message-ID: <199703071515.PAA02639-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I'm sorry, this is completely irrelevant, but given the number of sheep around on this list I had to pass on the tidbit from rec.humor.funny: From: rapawy-+AT+-stanford.edu (Greg Rapawy) Keywords: topical, smirk Date: Fri Mar 07 08:20:02 GMT 1997 Lines: 13 Did you hear about the new technology developed in Scotland? It's capable of producing a potentially unlimited number of completely identical sheep jokes. Thy Beloved Listmistress ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:36:44 -0500 From: Christi Redeker To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: I'm baack, the Last Straw Message-ID: I am not responding to all be cause i just want to thank you. That was very insightful. I agree with you on peoplres reality. I also game, online, live and dice. And I used to belong to the SCA. There are rare individuals who can seperate all aspects of their lives and remember that it is all how you make it. Christi Fair only corresponds with three things: Hair and skin coloring. Gatherings on the state and local level. And the weather. >---------- >From: M. Judson Goodrich[SMTP:goodrich-+AT+-wrench.mv.com] >Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 1997 4:54 PM >To: Christi Redeker >Subject: Re: I'm baack, the Last Straw > >{The smell of old books fills the air, Kethardral Librarian-Mage steps up} > >At 08:52 PM 3/5/97 GMT, GRAYMT-+AT+-centum.utulsa.edu wrote: > >>So, could someone send me a copy of "The Last Sraw"? And if she's so >>angry at her fans, how is that going to affect her at DragonCon? Is >>she going to have bodyguards? Will she talk to anyone? > >I just read "The Last Straw" last night, mainly in an attempt to see what >all the fuss was about. I don't think that Misty is angry at her fans, in >general. She's angry that a select few of mentally unbalanced people have >made her life (and those around her including her fans) more difficult and >possibly dangerous. Alot of what she talks about I can only guess about. >But one of the things that she does pound home is that: Some people have >real problems with Reality. > >This is a concept that I'm pretty familiar with. Being an avid gamer >(meaning >a person who plays Role-Playing and War Games) I know that its pretty easy >to forget that you are basicly dealing with something that isn't real. I'm >also a member of the SCA, which is another group that tends to harbor people >with problems with reality. > >So I don't think that Misty will be different at DragonCon, I've never met >her personally but I'm sure she is a nice enough person. But she may be >a bit strained from all of these people that really need to get a life. Its >part of the price people pay for getting famous and successful that they >start to attract people who are unwell. As fans of her work we should strive >to understand what she must be going through and realize that things like >"The Last Straw" aren't aimed at us, but those people who are unwell and >need help. (Then again it could have been aimed at us, so we could >understand what she is going through and send her our prayers and well >wishes.) > >{Kethandral notices that he's on a soapbox, and that there are books that >need shelving, so he gets down and fades back into the stacks} > >-Kethandral > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I >thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the >terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? >So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of >the universe." > >-- Marcus Cole to Dr. Franklin in Babylon 5:"A Late Delivery from Avalon" > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:11:23 -0500 (EST) From: Elisiande-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Barbie Clothes Message-ID: <970307111113_-1238604105-+AT+-emout14.mail.aol.com> Ok, I'm going to delurk again briefly... and I hope I don't offend anyone, but, remember, these are just opinions. If you don't like 'em... sorry. I thought long and hard about not posting this, especially since I'm relatively new, but maybe there are a few points worth hearing? And remember, I am certainly not advocating that anyone buy these patterns if they really find them offensive. BTW, *is* Misty the one making moneyfrom this of is the pattern designer, or both? And if I come off as a bit ... impassioned... I really don't mean to sound like a shrew, ok? So bear with me.... Re: Barbies Personally I think that whoever took the photos just wasn't thinking of how they might be percieved. (Barbie models the Shin'a'in outfit and Ken the Herald, another example, according to the list, of promoting the concept of women as decorative and men as having the power positions...) I mean, I am as interested as the next woman in making sure that images of women become more equal, but really! What stops anyone from making the sets the other way around? Really I am more concerned that in the toys released in the wake of the StarWars rerelease there I haven't yet been able to find ANY female figures, not even Leia. These toys are in the mainstream market, folks, and make a much stronger statement. My girls were very disappointed that even Leia wasn't important enough to rate an action figure, but several lesser male figures were. Or the ratio of male Power Rangers to female........ My girls love Barbie...No matter how politically correctly we try to raise them, they love Barbie. But they also have been very creative in making sure that Barbie is not just a stereotype. I have seen them make suits of armor out of aluminum foil so their Barbies can be knights and warrior princesses (a little Xena influence, maybe...). Maybe even Barbie can be made positive...Besides, the doll matters less than the strong female role models that surround them. If they start using that doll to model the roles of the women they see around them, it gives them a chance to try those roles on for size... and I got a kick out of the matter-of-course way they set up the Barbie jet with Barbie as the pilot and Ken as the passenger, without even thinking about it. So the patterns mean I don't have to figure out on my own how to make Barbie a Herald... saves me from many pinpricking and sticking of my poor tender fingers... I guess my point is that there are a lot of times when the messages sent to our kids are sexist. Often it is through innattention and ignorance. This may have been such an eror, and as such, yes, it needs our attention. We need to point out these oversights. But I really think a small private enterprise is less likely tom have been deliberate about it than a major toy company... and the major toy company affects more people. At least these patterns give YOU the option of who gets what role... the all come in BOTH versions!!! there is no way to adapt a Luke doll into a Leia... Maybe I am overreacting, too... I'm sure I'll hear about it . Gender-neutral sheep to any that I may have offended............. OK, ok, I'll shut up now,,except for a "What She Said" to Kerry.... Thanks for listening to my 2cents.... Elisiande ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 11:33:30 -0500 From: Beverly Steele To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Last Straw Message-ID: Well, I guess it's time for me to de-lurk and put my $.02 in about the Last Straw. Let me say in big letters- THIS IS NOT A FLAME!!!!!!!!! This is my personal opinion, and I take full responsibility for it. I have a couple of points, so please, be patient with me. I read the Last Straw letter on the net, and then printed it to do a little more detailed analysis on what was said. First off, about the letter itself, it's existence. Why did she write it? Think about this - On the Misty list, I get at least 2 (sometimes 4 or more) digests everyday. Each of those digests has approx 22 messages in it, so we are looking at 40+ minimum messages everyday. These are just the people who have subscribed to the list. Now imagine how many letters Misty herself gets everyday. Not just from fans who really like her stuff (like we do) but from deranged people, people who whine and carry on, people who complain about what she writes. Even letters from Fans can seem to be complaining about her writing. (Look at some of the archived messages if you don't believe me. I cringe when I read some of the posts we have had from stalwart fans! "Silver Grphyon should be used for a door stop." "Misty obviously only wrote this book for the money." "She could have changed the ending to this book, she just didn't want to take the time or effort." These are from people who have admitted to loving her stuff!) Now imagine all of those letters Misty gets. Not all of them are from people who love her, as she mentions in her own letter. From the sound of her letter, she has people alternately swearing at her, worshipping her, hating her, and threatening to kill her. Weirdly enough, fanatics will write letters to the objects of their obsession, where as ordinary fans won't. How many of you have written Misty personally to say "I really like your books. Thank you for creating this world." I haven't either. At some point, everyone reaches their level, and they have to vent. Misty is a _WRITER_ why are you surprised she _WROTE_ something to express how she feels? After reading it the third time, I thought she was really on a roll when she wrote it. I know there are times when I hear about people joining cults or following a charismatic leader blindly that make me want to scream. And once you start on something like that, you have to get it all out. Every time the "the oldies are picking on the newbies" argument breaks out on the list, I want to write a thesis on personal responsibility and send it to the list. Why haven't I? Because I can walk away from this for while, until it goes away. Misty can't. Not only is this something she loves, it's her lively hood. That's another thing. So many people have complained that "Misty wrote this book for money" "She only did this for money." She's a writer, what do you expect her to do? Would anyone be surprised if Mel Gibson got ten million dollars to make a movie? No, he's an actor. That's what he does. If the movie isn't that good, sure, some people are going to complain, but then they move on. Why do we expect any less from Misty? Sure, she makes money from it. I make my living by using my talent with computers and frankly, I make a good living at it. It's the same thing. Hers just reaches a broader market than mine. One last thing and then I'll shut up for another 6 months. There is nothing on this earth as horrible as the vicious death of a child. It's something that we see on the news and TV and think "oh, how terrible. Hmm, What's the weather going to be?" It's hard enough when someone you know dies a natural death. You still see them in every room, hear their voice or laugh. When that someone is a child, and she was murdered, and even though there was nothing you could do to stop it, you still feel like you should have been able to do something, it changes how you see things. Threats you could laugh off yesterday, scare you today. Ordinary shadows become people with rifles. For someone not in the limelight, it's bad enough. For someone of Misty's stature, all the fears are there, as well as the knowledge that there's a real possibility it might happen and another innocent could be a victim. (The idea of a 14 year old throwing themselves in front of a bullet frightens me.) So, to conclude this overly long epistle - let's cut Misty some slack. Take the Last Straw for what it is, venting. Remember, she's just as human as you and me, with all the flaws and foibles. Yes, she got it put on the Firebird web page. All the info about her stand on copywrite, and why she doesn't do filk anymore has also been on the internet. At least this will answer the DT question once and for all. OK, that about does it for me. Flames and Coconut will be absorbed by the very wet wooly coats of my sheep. (Bevie gets down off of her very high soap box and arranges her flock protectively in front of her.) Bevie bsteele-+AT+-ppp.state.sc.us ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 11:53:46 -0500 From: DC Kincaid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheep Message-ID: <3320481A.329A-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net> Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > Did you hear about the new technology developed in Scotland? > > It's capable of producing a potentially unlimited number of completely > identical sheep jokes. > Yes, I remember the clone wars well. I was 19 at the time, a Jedi just out of the Academy, long before the Empire. Some bright boy had used an experimental transmat... Yes, yes I know, they were never put into use because of the Outcry over the wars and that fly thing... Anyway, this bright boy, Tom, um, Bakkr I think it was had found a place in space and time where cloning was just becoming workable and brought over these animals that had been cloned to study. The result was horrific... Some distortion in the matrix brought the animals, but due to the protomatter imbalance in the main transmat buffer, they were intelligent and cloning themselves by the time they arrived. Yeah, sheep they were called. Thousands of them materialized all at once at the transmat site. They started to dig in immediately, started cloning more and more of themselves; It was horrible. These fat, wooly things with automatic weapons and blasters, uh-huh, got those from Don's Guns next door to the research facility in Grover's. They swarmed out of the pit they had made at Grover's Gill Mill and wiped out the sentry bots with a heat ray, then fought their way into the center of town and set up a command position at Callahan's. Took us a year to defeat them. We would go through them like butter with our lightsabers, killed thousands, then hundreds of thousands, and still they came on, cloning almost as fast as we could send em to be sheared. Those beady eyes and little black noses made them a picture out hell right out of Rhodanberries Divine Comedy. I was lucky to survive. Finally we destroyed their main cloning facility in the old Skynet building, but it took a lot of lives... Lot of lives. The Jedi never recovered. I think it was because there were so few of us left that Palpatine and Vader managed to get such power. Dana / Fast Fashion http://www.oaktree.net/angel1 mobilis in mobili ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:02:03 -0500 From: Christi Redeker To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Last Straw Message-ID: Hello everyone. As you saw earlier my first post didn't go well so I thought I would try again. I am sorry for anyone this offends, but, oh well. Misty has a job to do. That is make us all fall into her imaginary worlds for the brief respite they offer to our everyday lives. She is a writer, personally I think she is an incredible one. I enjoy the outlet for my imagination she offers. I read her books over and over again and I am on a list that allows me to be the first to be called when new releases arrive at my favorite bookstore. Am I addicted? You bet! Do I forget that I am a normal (?) person with an everyday life that revolves around MY work, MY house MY friends... nope. Today's world is a hard place to live. It is ugly... but is it any worse than when the Romans took over England and persecuted the people there? Or how about Zaire where people die everyday from illnesses that Americans have simple medicines for. I agree with Misty and wish there were Guardians, but we all are accountable for the actions in our lives. I am sorry that there are those who forget that fantasy is a world in which we indulge ourselves, not Live. I applaud Misty for taking the time to let us know what is going on. If she suddenly stop communicating or writing the novels we enjoy because of the harassment, we would all be affected adversely. It takes a great deal to stand up to a group of people and help them to understand. Christi C-Redeker-+AT+-mail.dec.com Christi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:43:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Jon-+AT+-han" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Delurk and essay Message-ID: Hello, my name is Jonathan. I thought I'd delurk for a moment and share a thought I have been working on for a while. I'd like to see whether my private theory will hold up to public scutiny. This involves themes from all of the Velgarth novels (excluding _Sword_of_Ice_, which I have not yet gotten my hands on to yet). Consider this a spoiler space. When I first started reading the Velgarth novels, several years ago, I assumed (as I am fairly certain most people do) that it was a standard sword and sorcery world. As I went through the novels as they were published, my admiration for the complexity of the series grew. Now that the series is nearing what I consider to be a grand conclusion, I think it is time to re-evaluate one of our basic beliefs about the setting. In the beginning of the series (The ordering system I use is that of publishing order, because that is the order in which I read them, and the order which I feel is the most sensible to begin reading them.) we are introduced to Valdemar through the eyes of Talia, a farm-girl of peasant origens. An implicit and fundamental theory I held until I re-read the books again is that the time period Velgarth is in corresponds to Earth's late Middle-Ages/ Early Renaissance. In this theory, Valdemar plays the role of an idealised Italy, returning knowledge to a world that has lost it for a great time period. Also, this model works because the nations of Velgarth are generally not _nations_, but are much closer to city-states. In this view, Valdemar is an Italy-analogue, Karse would be the traditional raiding-and-feuding enemy Germany-analogue, Rethwellan might correspond to France, and the Shin'a'in might be considered Greek merchants on the Med. The large Empire would be the inscrutable Orient to the east, which had managed to preserve it's culture throughout the centuries. Now, this is an imperfect and perhaps overwrought example, but it is fairly close to the one that I held and that I'm sure many others do. However, after some thought and an increase in my history knowledge, I now have an alternate theory, which corresponds much more closely to Velgarth, and if I am correct, may even predict where the series is headed. I feel that a better time period for Velgarth is not CE, but BCE. Specifically, I think that Valdemar corresponds quite closely to Classical Athens (5th cent). Think of the emphasis on acquiring new information, the freedoms the people enjoy, and the high emphasis on morality mixed with practicality by the government. Naturally, Valdemar is idealized to an extreme, but I think the analogy holds. This would make the traditional enemy of Valdemar, (Karse) be Sparta, which was warring and fighting with Athens almost constantly. The city state metaphor still holds true, and perhaps more accurately. But two examples really bring the metaphor home. Athens and Sparta feuded for many years until the entire Med. was involved. Athens was finally able to defeat the Spartans be forming an alliance with her neighbors to defeat them. A period of time later, a new menace appeared. The Persians (the Empire-analogue, which coincidentaly was ruled beauracratically by satraps the same way the Persians were) had designs upon the entire Med. The Persian Empire was amoung the largest amnd most powerful in the area at that time, if not the most powerful. The greek world banded together, Sparta, Athens, and all of their allies, and in a series of bold and daring manuevers, managed to defeat the much larger Persian fleet at the battle of Marathon. I find this to be a very close summation of the situation in the latest books, replacing naval tactics with magical. I think that these parallels are very interesting, and would appreciate comment. Anyone with more history than I care to back me up / correct me? Jon-+AT+-han ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1126 **********************************