MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1129 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Dead List? by DC Kincaid 2) Re: Dead List? by mishi 3) ADMIN: quiet weekend by Melanie Dymond Harper 4) The Misty post by dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (forever waiting) 5) Re: The Misty post by Ken Hyde 6) Re: Dead List? by Tensen 7) Wither Velgrath? (was Dead List?) by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 8) I'm off the list (fwd) by Rosario Holsen 9) Re: Lackey Music by "Sera" 10) Re: The Misty post by "Cindy Meeks" 11) (Offtopic) Fanfic Panel at Katsucon by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) 12) Re: The Misty post by DC Kincaid 13) Re: The Misty post by Ken Hyde 14) Ranting and Nutcases by The Marquise 15) Heyla!! :) I'm back! by Renee Mic Markowicz 16) Paying the Mortgage and Recent Book Quality by "H.D. Wegemer" 17) the last straw by Aimee Dowd 18) oops~!!!!! by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 19) Vanyel - What am I missing? by "Pamela Lunsford" 20) Tantrum by Sorsha 21) Re: the last straw by John Hagen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:10:57 -0500 From: DC Kincaid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dead List? Message-ID: <33237BC1.38E3-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net> > NIghtsong wrote: > -Okay, kids: Name everything in this post that could be used as a weapon! ;) I thought it was my Jedi Sheep story that had them so stunned they could not talk... Weapons: delete - finger, Firebird, email, Barbi PS: My name was deleted from the List without anyone telling me why (bad jokes?) and I'd really like to know why and who. If you don't like me, that's ok, some do and some don't. It has been dead around here this weekend! Dana / Fast Fashion mobilis in mobili http://www.oaktree.net/angel1 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:42:44 -0500 From: mishi To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dead List? Message-ID: <33238334.64D8-+AT+-mail.ptdprolog.net> Okay just a quicky here. Sorry this is going to be so short. Someone ask about why and who took them off the list. Noone did actually. If you were taken off for a reason, I'm sure you would've been told why and you would not have been able to get back on. It seems on occasion Vanyel(the computer that runs this mail list) gets the hiccups(okay computers can't hiccup but that's what I call it) and people's addy's get taken off. It's happened to me. Noone hates ya, noone's oout to get you or anything like that. Sometimes Vanyel even crashes and no mail gets sent out at all. Any problems contact the list mistress. Mishi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:44:22 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: quiet weekend Message-ID: <199703101044.KAA21286-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> It was a bit quiet over the weekend 'cause some bright spark (at udayton.edu) forwarded a whole bunch of digests from a Geocities account to the one at udayton and got the address wrong -- so they all bounced back here and filled up my disk space. Don't do that, eh? Cheers Mel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:10:19 EST From: dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (forever waiting) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The Misty post Message-ID: <19970310.091204.11182.0.DyanaLynn-+AT+-juno.com> That is the absolute first time I think ever that we've had a one post digest!!!!! About that thing that Misty posted. First, I am grateful to the person who posted it on list, and grant a flame retardent shield to the lovely personage. I don't always have web access, and was getting really curious. Also, I would just love to see anyone argue that it was off topic. The stuff in there, had to be said. Unfortunatly for many writers, there are some people who take everything that they see and read literally. There is absolutely nothing wrong with reading ideas and after thought and soul searching coming to the conclusion that these ideas are right for you, but to take all written word as total truth is a problem. Some people must be told that things are not true and that was Misty's stated point in writting that, wasn't it? Albeit that thesse same people will not get what's going on, but if one person with the problem gets some sort of indight from Misty's page then I think she is perfectly justified in publishing it. Besides, think about it, how would you all feel if sime piece of fiction that you wrote resulted in threats on you, your family, and ultimately the fans that you haven't even met? Kawryathen "I never doubted the teachers, just the lessons they taught. If I couldn't fill my stomach, I'd fill my head, But I never could fill the words that I said." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:54:39 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The Misty post Message-ID: Warning * Warning * Warning Bad mood and restrained bitchiness ahead. (Note to the assembly: do not read "The Dilbert Principle" unless you are prepared to spend a day or so in a fairly uncharitable mood wrt people's denial of reality.. The central principle, "People are idiots," is depressing and all too evident.) On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, forever waiting wrote: > That is the absolute first time I think ever that we've had a one post > digest!!!!! Is that a good thing or a bad thing (in my best Billie Bird voice). > The stuff in there, had to be said. Actually, no. My biggest problem with the whole "The Last Straw" posting was that it was so pointless and unnecessary. She could have accomplished the same thing, as far as her fans go, by simply saying that she was not going to write any more DT books because some fans have become threatening and abusive. I just don't see what Misty hoped to accomplish with the rest of it. After all, she clearly cannot imagine that the people she is complaining about are going to read TLS and suddenly have an epiphany about the error of their ways. Well, I suppose she could imagine that. God knows that Misty is as entitled to illogical behavior as anyone else in the world. Still, it doesn't sound like she thinks that the people she is complaining about are operating on all cylinders. If she was hoping to engender massive amounts of sympathy in her fans, I think she could have done so much more effectively. Frankly I was torn between annoyance and amusement. The annoyance stemmed from the fact that I don't particularly care for self-pitying emotionalism and ranting, particularly in public, and particularly when it is not done well. TLS struck me as a written tantrum, and not a particularly artistic one. It certainly did not strike me as appropriate behavior from an adult. Maybe I am old-fashioned (or just plain weird), but I have always felt that it is poor manners to scream and rant (basically to have a tantrum) in public. Little children do it, but part of growing up is gaining enough self-control to refrain. I would be a lot more sympathetic to Misty if she had simply written a reasonably well-written and rational explanation of her position, what others were doing to her, and her fears for the future if the trend continued. The amusement, on the other hand, stemmed from another aspect of the childishness of TLS: the innocence behind it. I find it terribly funny in a sad way, that Misty would be surprised at what has apparently gone on. My understanding was that she was involved in fandom before she even started writing. Throughout the entire TLS, I found myself wondering if Misty had been wandering around with her eyes closed the entire time she was in fandom. Didn't she ever see the fringe weirdos? Now, I admit that most of fandom is pretty innocuous, and there is a large portion that are actually pretty cool. But still, I can't help but think that you would have to work at it to ignore the lunatic fringe, and you would have to be unbearably naive to not have figured out that every sufficiently large social group will have a lunatic fringe. When you add in the fact that the DT books deal with the occult and "witchcraft" (both of which have a history of attracting weirdos, much to the dismay of the responsible practicioners of wicca and other forms of neo-pagan magick), a future that included strange people making threats and importunate claims on her should have been fairly obvious to Misty. > Besides, think about it, how would you all feel if sime piece of fiction > that you wrote resulted in threats on you, your family, and ultimately > the fans that you haven't even met? I would be upset. I would probably stop writing that particular type of fiction, depending on how many threats from different people I got (15 threats from the same person probably wouldn't make me stop--I would just turn them over to the police and hope they nailed the guy to a wall). I might even, if there were a lot of inquiries, publish a brief explanation explaining my choice in calm and rational tone (for example, I would not mention my "nail the guy to a wall" hope in the explanation). I certainly wouldn't rant about it in public (though I would probably have a few choice words to say in private and I might do a restrained jig if the threatener were caught and convicted). What would be the point of ranting? Tantrums accomplish nothing worthwhile and they annoy people who might otherwise be inclined to sympathize with you (I am excepting the tantrums that are thrown in the Bower as a form of "performance art"). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:34:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Tensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dead List? Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, DC Kincaid wrote: > > NIghtsong wrote: > > -Okay, kids: Name everything in this post that could be used as a weapon! ;) > > I thought it was my Jedi Sheep story that had them so stunned they could > not talk... > Weapons: delete - finger, Firebird, email, Barbi > Yes, I think that was it. Coupled with jokes that I got along the lines of anything having to do with Scottsmen and sheep.... Tensen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:40:39 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Wither Velgrath? (was Dead List?) Message-ID: Jennifer Wrenn wrote: >Ummm...StoryLines wanted: >I know, this was a while back, but I agree with whoever it was that said >they'd like to hear about the Tedrel wars and Selenay's early years. That was me!!! >Selenay has always been one of my favorite characters, and I've wondered how >it is that she came to be who she is. Would also like to know first-hand >about Solaris' promotion to Son of the Sun. We have Karal's version, but >what was happening to her? And what about Iftel? I vaguely remember >something about Iftel being in SB, but I can't remember much from that. >Anyways, that's about ALL we know. So what's the deal with the country? >Inquiring minds want to know! =) > As I think more about (and reread) the Storms books, I'm coming to think that Misty should give "current" Valdemar a rest and work on other countrys/times. I still think the best plotted and written segments of the storms trilogy were those on Tremaine, the Empire and the part of the Karal thread in SW before he got submerged in the rest of the (not boring but not very gripping) Valdemar thread. so maybe a change of scene, either temporal or physical, is what the Velgrath books in general need. Would we all agree that BG was a good book? And that WG suffered mainly from not being sure where it was going? (murder mystery or what) And i still think SG was Ok, just not High Drama. David Tiffany, Golt of dyops >Oh, Barbies!: >I finally went and took a look at the Barbie page. Personally, I think that >the clothes for the dolls is a good idea. I loved Barbie as a kid, but I >don't think I've been totally warped by the doll. Yes, I know their figures >could use a little work, but overall, when I was young, I never really >thought about it. I knew that she wasn't real, so it didn't matter what she >looked like. (Though it did irritate me that she couldn't sit right on a >horse... But, alas, I ramble) > >Okay, methinks I've bored you all enough for today. Please, please, someone >post?! Wind to thy wings, Listsibs! > >Nightsong >jwrenn-+AT+-atlonline.com > >-Okay, kids: Name everything in this post that could be used as a weapon! ;) > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:57:55 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: I'm off the list (fwd) Message-ID: Guessing that this is the list he meant... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:52:21 +0100 From: 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: Jaguar Subject: I'm off the list Jag, Can you forward this to the list for me. I sent it before I unsubscribed but it didn't arrive until after I'd been taken off the list. **************************************************** Guys I'm going to be off the list for about 2 weeks due to impending deadlines, I will have no time to check messages and do not want a repeat of this time last year with 1200 messages waiting for me when I do finally get arround to checking on my mail. Hopefully I'll be back some time over the Easter break. ************************************************ Zha'hai'allav'a Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras Kal'enedral [OIB](AKA Jason Stokes) 95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk "If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here While these visions did appear". *Puck, Midsummer Nights Dream* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:24:45 CST From: "Sera" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lackey Music Message-ID: <168993205BB-+AT+-email.rosary.edu> Disney said: > I agree with Elizabeth (right person?) about loving it or leaving it. > However, I have a question...Am I the only person who thinks that > Misty can not sing? I (finally) got the _Heralds, Harpers, and Havoc_ > CD and while I think most of the songs are GREAT, I have a problem > with 'Her Fathers Eyes' and the other one that Selenay sang about > Talia being Queens Own. _I_ can sing the song better than she did. > Is it just me? Do I just have no taste for music? :) I'm sorry I am responding to this message a little late. I have been on Spring Break for the past week only to be welcomed back with 250 messages! Needless to say it is taking FOREVER to get through them. I *finally* got _Heralds, Harpersm and Havoc_ in the mail on Saturday. I brought it to work with me and was listening to it. Anyway, I will admit that Misty doesn't have the best voice I heard. I am not even sure if I can pin point what bothers me about it, but I think that she did not do the song justice, especially "Musing" which is the other one she sings on that CD. Personally, I (hope) that it's not just me since I sing for concerts and in school and am considering a music (performance) minor. Now, I am not saying that they were bad, I love the album, I just don't think they were given all that they deserve. Sera and Shea * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Truly you have a dizzying intellect." The Princess Bride "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essential est invisible pour les yeux." Le Petit Prince Antoine de Saint-Exupery * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Liz Blaszak Goddess of the Eventide Apprentice to the Guild of Typoists blaszael-+AT+-email.rosary.edu http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3772/ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4537/ (708) 524-6997 X2076 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 12:45:11 -0600 From: "Cindy Meeks" To: Subject: Re: The Misty post Message-ID: <199703101843.MAA25922-+AT+-smtp.gte.net> Cennydd said I certainly wouldn't rant about it in public But my dear friend, isn't that what you just did? Not meaning to be mean but... Doesn't Misty have the same right to vent some of her fear and anger as you? Who better for her to vet to than those who love her works? Those who are also affected by the threats either by the loss of the Tregard books or by the implied threat that this sicko will also take out fans if necessary. What would be the point of ranting? Tantrums accomplish nothing > worthwhile and they annoy people who might otherwise be inclined to > sympathize with you. What was the point of your ranting? Was it possibly to get your point across? Was it possibly to help the reader understand that you are feeling a deep .... frustration? Well, Misty seems to agree. Sometimes ranting and getting things off of one's chest also brings a start of healing. *shrug* I certainly hope so! You mentioned Misty's forray into fandom before becoming a writer in her own right. You sarcastically mentioned that she should have seen the lunatic fringe. Had you thought that, like most people, she might have had the "it won't happen to me" syndrome. You know the one. Cancer kills... but it only kills the other guy. I personally support Misty's and your right to rant in public forums where other people have the right to or not to read your rant. I chose to read hers because I am a bit of a fan of hers. I hate that these events have happened to her. I can see why she'd be upset by these events. I'm not sure that if these events had happened to me, that I could handle it calmly and rationally. I chose to read your rant because you have a lot of interesting things to say and a different view on life. You are also very articulate. I believe I've told you before that I envy your articulation (is that really a word). You seem to be able to say things that I would love to say but can't find the words to do so. I don't harbor any ill feelings because the point of view that you stated doesn't agree with mine so... > (I am excepting the tantrums that are thrown in the Bower as a form of > "performance art"). This might be a dumb question but what's the Bower? I offer you one dozen of your favorite sheeps if my post offends you. It was certainly not my intention. Just wanted to add another point of view. RuneCall me Cindy... Call me Rune... I'd sing you a song but can't carry a tune!!! Visit my homepage at http://home1.gte.net/cmeeks/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:58:19 -0500 From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: (Offtopic) Fanfic Panel at Katsucon Message-ID: <9703101958.AA09121-+AT+-water.waterw.com> (I hope this person is on this list. Apologies to everyone else) Would the man who started to talk to me about Mercedes Lackey after the fanfic panel at Katsucon this past weekend please private e-mail me if he wants to continue/restart our abortive conversation? My apologies for getting distracted, and I think I even walked away from you. Jeanne Hedge http://www.accsyst.com/jhedge/ Assistant SysOp Compuserve Anime/Manga Forum ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:13:52 -0500 From: DC Kincaid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The Misty post Message-ID: <33246B7F.48E1-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net> Cindy Meeks wrote:etc: > > Cennydd said > > I certainly wouldn't rant about it in public But my dear friend, isn't that what you just did? Not meaning to be mean but... Doesn't Misty have the same right to vent some of her fear and anger as you? How does Ann Rice handle these things? For a decade or so, slowing down a bit now I suppose, she had had to, I'm certain, had to hadle tons of vampire wanna-bees (like me at one time though I never called or wrote her) dealt with the Mayfair Witch crowd, Talamasca crowd, plus she has been called horrible things by some "religious" persons and people in New Orleans who don't like her buying up tons of property. She may rant to Stan or her son or dogs, I don't know, yet she opens her house and properties to strangers for tours, has mega-Halloween parties, goes to book signings... I have never heard any "rants" except not liking Tom Cruise for Lestat. I got to hug one of her dogs last October! Very diff ways of handling things... Of course we must remember that Ann probably has never had a child shot, but that had NOTHING to do with the stories. Dana / Fast Fashion / http://www.oaktree.net/angel1 PS: Public people must deal with the public. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:03:35 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The Misty post Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, DC Kincaid wrote: > Cindy Meeks wrote:etc: > > Cennydd said > > I certainly wouldn't rant about it in public But my > > dear friend, isn't that what you just did? Not meaning to be mean > > but...Doesn't Misty have the same right to vent some of her fear and > > anger as you? First, to reply to Cindy's comments (which I didn't take offense at, Cindy). I would argue that I did not "rant" in public. First, I don't really think of this list as "public." I think of it as a very large group of friends engaged in a massive conversation. If something comes up that I feel strongly about, I will express myself as I would if I were among friends (e.g. hanging out at the local coffeehouse discussing philosophy, etc.) Also, I actually was trying not to let that "ranting" tone creep into my writing. On re-reading my own post, I would argue that I wasn't exactly ranting (which usually has a slightly petulant and/or abusive tone to it), but rather was trying to explain, in a reasonable (yet not boring) way, my opinion on TLS in the context of an ongoing discussion. I guess the distinction that I would make is that TLS was not addressed to a social group of people with whom Misty interacts on a regular basis. In that sense, her post was "public" in a way that mine was not. In addition, the "ranting" part, when I analyze why I would characterize TLS in this way, seems to be based on the very strident message of "this isn't fair! why me?" > How does Ann Rice handle these things? That's a good question. Since I am not a fan/reader of her work, I don't know, except that apparently she doesn't go on public tirades. The only exception that I know of was her well-publicized condemnation of Tommy-boy as Lestat (btw, how many people believed a word she said in that little trailer on the video about the "wonderful" job that Tom did as LeStat? I have to admit that I can't tell whether she is serious or whether the chair she is sitting in is concealing a studio goon with a lawsuit). > PS: Public people must deal with the public. That is a truism of the first order. The question then becomes "Is an author a 'public' figure?" I don't know. Many of them aren't. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:23:29 -0600 From: The Marquise To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Ranting and Nutcases Message-ID: <199703102227.QAA99536-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> I couldn't sit back and watch this one roll by without my $.02. On the subject of TLS and ranting, I mostly agree with Cennydd. I can understand Misty's frustration and her anger at the situation, but her missive did amount to a tantrum. She was "preaching to the choir" as the saying goes. 99% of the people who visit that website are misty fans who are not "flakes" as she so delicately put it. The people who needed to hear it weren't going to, and all she accomplished was patronizing and offending some of her readers, and maybe getting a few sympathetic feelings from others. Cindy suggested that Cennydd's post was a tantrum in and of itself. I don't think so. It is possible to state your opinion without throwing a tantrum. Misty certainly could have done so. All she would have had to do was explain the situation. She did not have to continually put things in CAPS, and go off for lengths of time about the Bad People (tm). It was a bit much, IMHO. Fast Fashion wrote: >How does Ann Rice handle these things? I think there's a difference here. People are *afraid* of Anne Rice. You don't run into many people in Misty's hometown saying, "You know that Lackey woman is really creepy. She has a skeleton in a bridal gown in her house." Don't get me wrong- I love Anne Rice's work. I think she's got a bit of the dark genius in her. (even if Memnoch wasn't as good as her other Vampire Chronicles, but I digress) Still, she has a tendency to scare people away. The majority of the nutcases out there who would harrass her probably think she's that much scarier than they are. This isn't to say that she hasn't probably had situations that were similar, but they probably don't bother her as much. I would think that Anne Rice would especially be protective of her son Christopher considering that she already lost a six year old daughter to luekemia. It's not a matter of worrying about a child, though. Anne Rice can get away with more than Misty can because she has a reputation. Ah well, just my opinion. Discussion is always welcome... =) Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:29:34 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Heyla!! :) I'm back! Message-ID: Hi everyone! I just wanted to write a brief post to tell everyone that after 3 and a half months of being off list (thanks to winter break and plenty of work), the Co-High Priestess of Procrastination is back! I missed you all, and it's nice to have my Inbox flooded again. :) As to Misty content, (forgive me if I repeat something that's been talked to death - I don't know how to find the archives of previous messages to catch up) I just read _Sword of Ice_ over winter break. I have to say that I came across something that really annoyed me - don't panic, this isn't a spoiler if you haven't read the book yet. In the short story "Sword of Ice", Kellan is referred to as a 'him'. Huh? Did I miss something? Last time I checked, Savil's Companion was most definately a 'her'. I originally thought that Misty hadn't written that one, and so the mistake could be forgiven. But, she co-authored it! That's quite a mistake to overlook. I've been aching to get that off my chest for almost 3 months. Thanks for listening! Zhai'helleva, Renee Markowicz Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I've half a mind--" the green rider began. Pre-Veterinary Student |"Obviously," Robinton cut in. (_Dragonquest_) **High Priestess of |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Procrastination** |"Why is it that your people always ask if a Confused? Just Ask! |person is 'ready' just before they are about to Visit my homepage: ;) |do something monumentally unwise?" -Delenn (_B5_) http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:00:43 +0000 From: "H.D. Wegemer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Paying the Mortgage and Recent Book Quality Message-ID: <9703102356.AA14222-+AT+-flash> Some time in 1997, M. Lackey wrote: > They were written at the time when horror was outselling > everything else, and hey, I wrote them to make money. We've got a > mortgage to pay. And, of course, as you all know, Ms. Lackey has been churning out books to pay the mortgage at an astonishing rate recently . . . works that have been disappointing in quality to many members of this list. Perhaps here we see the reason. Back in 1975, U.K. LeGuin wrote: > But I revert to speaking as a writer, not a reader, and inquire, > how many books, _while_they_are_being_written_ are conceived of by > their authors as trash? > > It's really an interesting question. I have no idea of the > answer. It's not 0 per cent -- far from it. There are many, many > authors who deliberately write junk for money, and I have met > others who, though less cynical, spoke of their own works as > "moneymakers" or as "mere entertainment" -- a little defensively, > to be sure, because the ego is always involved in the work, but > also honestly, realistically, in the full knowledge that they had > not done, and had not tried to do, the best they could do. Interestingly, M. Lackey included in her rant: > THESE BOOKS ARE ENTERTAINMENT ONLY, PEOPLE! Ms. LeGuin continues: > And in art, from the artist's point of view, there are only two > alternatives: the best you can do -- or trash. It's a binary > system. On/Off. Yes/No. But not from the reader's point of > view, of course. From there, there are infinite gradations > between the best and the worst, all degrees of genius, talent, and > achievement between the best and the worst, all degrees of genius, > talent, and achievement between Shakespeare and the hack, and also > within each work of Shakespeare's. But from the writer's point of > view, while writing, there are just two ways to go: to push > toward the limit of your capacity, or to sit back and emit > garbage. Leaving aside for the nonce that Shakespeare is a really lousy example, for at least one of his plays (_As_You_Like_It_) was hack-work, written to please the people and not because he thought it would be worth seeing or performing, we'll look at what this implies for Ms. Lackey. Once upon a time, a young filk singer worked at a day job she didn't much like, programming computers, I think. She had something to say, though . . . she submitted fiction to a couple of anthologies by Marion Zimmer-Bradley, including the Tarma and Kethry stories most of us know and love. They weren't Great Literature -- but they were an attempt. Ms. Lackey did not immediately quit her day job . . . she wasn't emitting books to pay the mortgage. Books like the Arrows trilogy, Vows and Honor, maybe Last Herald-Mage -- the ones most people here most admire -- were written because she had a story to tell, not to pay the mortgage. Now, in the middle of a long rant, we hear the words that another writer as identified as a sign that the author does not expect to write anything more than trash. Is it surprising that we have recently been handed . . . trash? Ms. Lackey continues: > We write fiction, which is, by definition, NOT FACT. Okay, fine. I knew that, you knew that . . . this much I can accept. But Ms. Lackey continues: > Creative and entertaining lies, if you will, but still not truth by > any kind of stretch of the imagination. So, we've written over 40 > books, of which a grand total However, in 1977, Ms. LeGuin stated: > Artists are people who are not at all interested in facts -- only > in truth. You get the facts from outside. The truth you get from > inside. Here again we see the dichotomy. Ms. Lackey may not agree with Ms. LeGuin's statement . . . but I do. The reason I feel so strongly about works like the Last Herald-Mage trilogy isn't because of the cutesy talking horses, nor because of mage-bolts, or anything like that . . . it's because much of what I saw in Vanyel rang painfully true for me. Others to whom I have spoken state that they feel that they could be Talia -- not because of any external similarities, but because they have felt how she feels. The defense in this list's Great Elspeth Debate is something along the lines of, "Well, if you think about it, you can see why she'd be frustrated and act as she did." I contend that this illustrates the failing of the Mage Winds trilogy. Talia and Vanyel rang true -- one knew them inside and out, and understood how they felt, even sometimes feeling the same. We were forced to look at Elspeth, however, from the outside. We can, logically, see what might have motivated her . . . but it didn't ring true as I was experiencing the book, anyway. I fear, perhaps, Ms. Lackey has chosen to be a hack writer, who churns out books almost like an assembley-line. This is certainly her right, and will get the mortgage paid, for many readers don't feel any need for truth . . . only for action. If this is the case, however, we need no longer act surprised when out pops another novel that doesn't follow the promise of Arrows or Last Herald-Mage. The promise, it seems, has been broken . . . and we get the trash she is willing to write. Heather Wegemer (Not What-She-Said, who is sadly unsubscribed at this point :-( not the singer, not anybody of any real importance at all . . .) _Works_Cited_ (even though they weren't cited properly) Lackey, Mercedes. "The Last Straw." _Firebird_Web_Pages_. 1997 LeGuin, Ursula K. "The Stone Ax and the MuskOxen." _The_Language_ _of_the_Night_. New York: HarperCollins, 1989. 225-239. LeGuin, Ursula K. "Talking About Writing." _The_Language_of_the_ _Night_. New York: HarperCollins, 1989. 195-201. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 18:53:29 EST From: Aimee Dowd To: Mercedes Lackey Discussion List Subject: the last straw Message-ID: <970310.191405.EST.AIMEDOWD-+AT+-UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> I just read "THe Last Straw" and I now have some things to add to the discussion. First off, I have to say, I'm in the Hth/Cennydd camp on this one. I understand the anger and the fear that drove that essay. I understand that she was addressing the borderline lunatics, trying to help them get a firmer grip on reality. And I understand that if they would listen to anyone, they would listen to her, the object of their obsession. But I think that, by taking the tone she did in that essay, she blew her only chance of helping them see reason. She was so excessively abrasive and insulting that her message lost the "helpful-slap-in-the-face" quality and became a personal attack on the people she was talking to (not an attack on all her readers, just the ones with the reality problem). You can't change someone's mind by insulting them - all that accomplishes is angering your target audience and putting them on the defensive. Anger shuts the door to logic and reason; it enables you to dismiss an argument out of hand that, under different circumstances, you might have been convinced by. Once again, I know why Misty was so furious -- death threats have an odd way of doing that! -- but she let her anger get in the way of her goal, IMO. The other thing I want to say has to do with the analogy Kerry (I think) drew between Misty and Di Tregard. I'm not sure it really holds up. In CotN, Di was not an established writer -- she was just beginning her writing career, and had to play it safe for a while until she became known, a name. Misty is very well-established. She has MANY fans who will certainly buy any (paperback) book she writes! She can afford to experiment a little. --Aimee, Dame of the OAM Aimee Dowd aimedowd-+AT+-uga.cc.uga.edu *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:49:35 -0800 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: oops~!!!!! Message-ID: Sorry about the extra page in mty last post, I swear I deleted it, relly, I did! I for one don't think Cen was rant, nor do I think this a public place, more like a forest glade mostly used only by a few people who are friends and meet here to chat-although the occasional stranger wanders in... and boy have some of them been strange! As to Misty's rant. Not very adult behaviour I fear. Unnessecary at best. What She Said. (and he said) David of godly toes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 16:57:03 From: "Pamela Lunsford" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Vanyel - What am I missing? Message-ID: <199703110055.QAA04271-+AT+-nic.greycat.com> I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't read the other two books. But I see lots of people here who just love Vanyel. Who knows, maybe I read it on a day when the day care kids had been getting to me and that colored my perceptions. Does anyone else feel this way or is it just me? I'm willing to give it another stab if he does grow up. No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style. Pamela -- pam-+AT+-greycat.com http://www.calweb.com/~plunsfrd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:23:47 -0800 From: Sorsha To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Tantrum Message-ID: <3324B423.7A62-+AT+-inreach.com> I wasn't the least bit offended by the Last Straw. If anything I applauded it. Misty has been having a very hard time dealing with deaths and threats. She just couldn't take it anymore. The Last Straw essay was a good attempt at venting but not a very good attempt and deterring the so called "flakes". But what the hay, we all learn from mistakes. That's life. I understand Misty and I can relate to the Last Straw. Sure she did it out of rage but who cares? Why be offended? If you're not a "flake", you shouldn't be offended. If you don't care for the essay she wrote, don't read it and tell Misty what you think, if you do care, fine, tell Misty all about it. I've already wrote to Misty. I don't think she was looking for sympathy, she was just merely venting herself, as a fan I consider myself her friend, and who can you look to for support and comfort if not your friends and family? Misty is a talented writer, but she is human too, and we all have our little quirks. She has every right to express herself, even if it is a "tantrum". If you were as frustrated and pissed off as she is I'm pretty sure you would do the same thing, even though the majority of you _think_ you wouldn't. I have, I am native american and I have recieved death threats from quite a few people because of it and not just from non-natives, I have recieved threats from people of tribes other than Cherokee. At first I thought the threats were stupid and childish. But then they became annoying and then after the phone calls, it became all too real and frightening. I kept all the feelings I had about it under a tight lid until I couldn't handle anymore and I exploded and went off. As for reporting such things to the police, been there, done that, and all I got was a "thank you ma'am we'll look into it, have a nice day" and that just angered me more. They didn't even look at the letters I showed them or the phone calls I recorded, much less pull an investigation. Luckily for Misty she has people actually looking into the death threats and such. It's scarey being told you are gonna get killed and how it'll happen. Can any of you understand this? How many of you have actually seen a child get shot down by a stray bullet or run down by the same car three times over? It happens every day, innocent children who have their whole lives ahead of them, lose it in one moment, and the only thing I can see is my own daughter's body laying in a pool of blood, or a heap of flesh, blood and bones, her face being unable to identify. I know what I'm talking about here, it happend to my best friend's four year old. It's horrifying and traumatizing. And if you can't see the terror in a child dying violently, what made you so uncaring? What gave you a heart of stone? Winterrobin -- *"The Earth Does Not Belong to Us|If You Think An Education* * We Belong to The Earth" | Is Expensive * * -Chief Seattle | Try Ignorance * ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:30:50 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the last straw Message-ID: <3324A7B4.4348-+AT+-snet.net> Yes, Misty is angry. Fear for one's life, to say nothing of fear for one's beloved's life will do that. My life has been theatened once, a long time ago by a rapist. My son's life has been threatened by appendicitis. My husband's life was threatened a long time before I knew him. I don't know about any of you, but writing is an intensely personal act for me. If I were so fortunate as to get paid for this action of mine, and some truly sicko nutcases were out to kill me, I would be in a state of terror and rage. As far as I know, the only outlet other than fiction that Misty has is writing an essay on the Firebird catalog's website. If I had walked in her shoes, which I have not done so, and as far as I know, noone else here has done so, I would very probably have written something very similar. Was Misty wrong or impolite to write and publish The Last Straw? I don't think so. But then I was brought up to be politely enraged in the defense of others and myself. That's all folks Lady Sara, LIG and Dryad Extraordinaire Hopeful Diety of all Marsupials, Past, Present, and Future ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1129 **********************************