MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1130 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Vanyel - What you are missing. by The Marquise 2) venting by Aimee Dowd 3) whine: I don't understand by "Alexandra Y. Kwan" 4) Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? by Ken Hyde 5) reaction to 'Last Straw' by "Alexandra Y. Kwan" 6) Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? by "Alexandra Y. Kwan" 7) Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? by "Pamela Lunsford" 8) Re: Vanyel - What you are missing. by "Pamela Lunsford" 9) Several Thoughts Strung Together by kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) 10) on: rants/Valdemar/Barbie/Kellan/winterrobin/Lackey/English Patient by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 11) small braid by Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com 12) De-Lurking by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 13) Vanyel/Brust/TLS by Renee Mic Markowicz 14) Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? by Lydia Hales 15) Re: Ranting and Nutcases by Rosario Holsen 16) De-lurk?/Sorry very short by gordonb-+AT+-jsd.k12.ak.us (Becca Gordon, JDHS, Juneau, AK) 17) re: elspeth debate by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 18) missing mail? by "John and Kara Pekar" 19) SOI by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 20) The Last Straw, Soapbox, Anne Rice by Gessika Rovario 21) Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:53:46 -0600 From: The Marquise To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vanyel - What you are missing. Message-ID: <199703110157.TAA91902-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 01:27 AM 3/11/97 GMT, Pamela wrote: > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it >against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny >annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't >read the other two books. > But I see lots of people here who just love Vanyel. > Who knows, maybe I read it on a day when the day care kids had >been getting to me and that colored my perceptions. Does anyone >else feel this way or is it just me? >I'm willing to give it another stab if he does grow up. Argh! Vanyel is a boy in the first book. He's supposed to be. It's how you can see how much he grows. If he whines, he has cause to. Most people would have a problem if their lifebonded died in such unfortunate circumstances. He was also brought up in such a way that he was not allowed to be himself, as well as having many misconceptions about what it takes to be a Herald. Everything's thrown at him at once. I agree with Savil when she tells him he's "earned a little whine". The reason I love Vanyel, is that he becomes the most noble and good character he can possibly be while still retaining his humanity. You wouldn't want his wonderful loveliness to be too perfect, would you? That would be boring. I cried and laughed and basically emoted throughout those books because I understood Vanyel. Because he was human and because he loved. I totally empathized with his tendency to wear himself to a thread and his struggle with ethics. When he worries that getting involved with someone could jeapordize their safety, I know what he's worried about because Misty let me inside his head. This is what Misty has been lacking lately. I have yet to find a trilogy of books in which I felt for the main character the way I felt for Vanyel. Nothing since has come close. I hope this explains it. Zhai'helleva, Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 22:17:21 EST From: Aimee Dowd To: Mercedes Lackey Discussion List Subject: venting Message-ID: <970310.224647.EST.AIMEDOWD-+AT+-UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> Venting is a good thing; in fact, it's necessary to stay sane sometimes. But I can't help feeling that there is a difference between exploding because you just can't take it anymore and writing that explosion down and publishing it. Now, I've never had my life threatened, so I can't say how I would react. But I guess I've always felt, like Cennydd, that venting should be done in private or with a few select friends. Airing one's emotional laundry in writing seems to me to give it permanance -- to make it seem premeditated, so it's not really venting anymore, it's something else. I don't know. Maybe, because Misty's a writer, she vents in writing. But still... Anyway, I DO know that I can dislike "The Last Straw," and even talk about my dislike of it, and not be somehow disloyal or unsupportive of her. She needs support; she's in a horrible position! But I would never express my dislike of TLS like this to HER! *That* would be being unsupportive. The author is not the work; they are two seperate things. My attitude towards one particular piece of her writing does not reflect my attitude towards her as a person. Anyway, I have to get off the computer now. I just want to add that it was the tone, not the content, of her message that I really disliked. She could have said the exact same thing in a different tone of voice, and I would have had no problem with it whatsoever. -Aimee, Dame of the OAM Aimee Dowd aimedowd-+AT+-uga.cc.uga.edu *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:54:25 -0800 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: whine: I don't understand Message-ID: <3324D771.1DF8-+AT+-earthlink.net> Hi, everyone. I am a newbie. So I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about here. Obviously Ms. Lackey wrote a post most here dislike. But what's the post in the first place? Anyone who has a copy of 'Last Straw' post please e-mail it to me? Now, that's done. My name is Alex. I am a senior in a California high school. I love the Last Herald-Mage Triology, and especially the character of Vanyel. I like the recent works of Ms. Lackey, too. They are pretty good entertainment, though I don't think they are the same level as her earlier works. I am also an Anne Rice fan, though, as with the case of Ms. Lackey, Ms. Rice's recent works have deteriorated (sp?). I hate 'Memnoch the Devil,' and dislike 'Servant of the Bones.' Well, anyhow, that's it, bye, everyone. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:34:27 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Pamela Lunsford wrote: > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it > against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny > annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't > read the other two books. Yeah! =) Since I have already seen one post from a OAM member, I will just post a little note to say that you are not alone, Pamela. Although, I encourage you to read the other two books. Vanyel *is* annoying, but in general the books are actually quite good. And he does get better, although he never completely loses his annoyance factor. However, if you don't read the other books, you won't get more Savil, you won't meet Stefen, and you'll miss the redemption of Forst Reach, not to mention the canonical scene where Ste-Melenna of the Pink Wand got her rank. =) > No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades > will seriously cramp his style. Hey! That's my signature! Find your own quote! =) (Seriously, I don't mind and I am glad to see another Brust fan--there are a few of us here, but I think most are hiding in the woodwork...you'd think they were teckla! *grin and sheeps*) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:43:49 -0800 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: reaction to 'Last Straw' Message-ID: <3324F0C3.1EF2-+AT+-earthlink.net> You guys are offended by this?! Oh, my god! This is nothing compared to us Hong Kongers! We Hong Kongers are sarcastic to hell and we aren't apologizing. Ms. Lackey was directing her comment to nutcases who poses death threats and some such. If you don't go around threatening people or anything like that, just read this as an amusing commentary! Don't get so angry about nothing! I certainly wasn't in any bits offeded! Well, that's my two cents worth. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 22:33:14 -0800 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? Message-ID: <3324FCAA.692A-+AT+-earthlink.net> Pamela Lunsford wrote: > > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it > against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny > annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't > read the other two books. Vanyel is *not* an annoying brat, 'cause I am the one who had already claimed the title. But seriously, I didn't see him in that light because (1) you gotta admit, Van's life before Haven sucked (2) Life in Haven but before 'Lendel was a bit better, but not so great either (3) after 'Lendel's death, well, I would assume losing your lifebond would have some slight sort of negative effect on you. To me, Savil wasn't that nice to Vanyel before Tylendel's death, so the only good thing in Haven for Vanyel is Tylendel. Losing a lifebond is bad enough, losing the only person (okay, except Lissa) in the world that meant anything to you, the drivng force of your life *is* gonna mess you up a bit. Also, you have to read the book identifying yourself with Vanyel. If you hold the view of being an outsider, you really can't see the good in Vanyel. The most important reason I sympathize with Vanyel in the first book, IMHO, is that I am a teenager also. A lot of adults have forgotten how it feels to be a teenager. I know it's the oldest saying, but it still holds true. Anyhow, everything Vanyel did was pretty reasonable. A 'better' person could have done it better, but can you seriously say that if you were in his situation, you wouldn't be at least tempted to act like he did? > But I see lots of people here who just love Vanyel. > Who knows, maybe I read it on a day when the day care kids had > been getting to me and that colored my perceptions. Does anyone > else feel this way or is it just me? > I'm willing to give it another stab if he does grow up. Yes, Vanyel does grow up as the series progresses. That's the point of this trioloy. In the last book, Vanyel was very noble and all that stuff heralds are suppose to be like. But fortunately, some of his 'annoying' qualities do remain. In the middle one, he does strike me, sometimes, as whining, but it's understandable, even reasonable. Well, that's my two cents worth. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 23:54:32 From: "Pamela Lunsford" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? Message-ID: <199703110752.XAA05420-+AT+-nic.greycat.com> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:01:15 GMT, Ken Hyde wrote: >Stefen, and you'll miss the redemption of Forst Reach, not to mention the >canonical scene where Ste-Melenna of the Pink Wand got her rank. =) That sounds like something I *have* to read. > >> No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades >> will seriously cramp his style. > >Hey! That's my signature! Find your own quote! =) (Seriously, I don't >mind and I am glad to see another Brust fan--there are a few of us here, >but I think most are hiding in the woodwork...you'd think they were >teckla! *grin and sheeps*) Huh? I didn't notice that you used that one too. I am a Brust fan (at least of the 1st four 'Jhereg' books) but that quote has been around longer than that he's been writing. I first saw it about 15 years ago in an anthology of stories about Wizards. It was the heading on a story about a Wizard named Pontolimax. Or something similar to that anyway. A real con artist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ninety-eight percent of the adults in this country are decent hard-working, honest Americans. It's the other lousy two percent that get all the publicity. But then we elected them - Lily Tomlin Pamela -- pam-+AT+-greycat.com http://www.calweb.com/~plunsfrd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 00:14:45 From: "Pamela Lunsford" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Re: Vanyel - What you are missing. Message-ID: <199703110812.AAA05476-+AT+-nic.greycat.com> On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:30:21 GMT, The Marquise wrote: >can see how much he grows. If he whines, he has cause to. Most people would >have a problem if their lifebonded died in such unfortunate circumstances. >He was also brought up in such a way that he was not allowed to be himself, >as well as having many misconceptions about what it takes to be a Herald. Most people would have a problem, yes. But he had a mother who loved him even if she did spoil him. I guess he annoyed me because I know people who grew up in horrible situations, hiding the same secret, and didn't react that way. But I will read again and see if I can get past that first impression that turned me off. > >This is what Misty has been lacking lately. I have yet to find a trilogy of >books in which I felt for the main character the way I felt for Vanyel. >Nothing since has come close. I know what you mean. The emotional impact just isn't there. There are flashes of it, but not sustained. I re-read the Tarma and Kethry books, the arrows trilogy, and "The Lark and the Wren" entirely, but find myself dipping into the other recent books for the scenes that are worth reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone who uses the phase 'As easy as taking candy from a baby' has never tried taking candy from a baby. Pamela -- pam-+AT+-greycat.com http://www.calweb.com/~plunsfrd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:09:06 -0600 (CST) From: kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk.Helloooooooooo.list.folk, Subject: Several Thoughts Strung Together Message-ID: <199703110909.DAA06278-+AT+-dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> actually my third post but I thought I should introduce myself a little before talking at you to much. I started reading Misty's work before the LHM trilogy came out. I have enjoyed all of the Velgarth books as well as the Bardic Voices/Choices books. I must admit that her more recent books have not had the personal immediacy that the earlier ones had, but they were enjoyable, if for no other reason, because they resolved some of the mysteries from earlier stories. For a couple of weeks now I have read all the posts coming in and several issues have come up that I would like to coment on, hopefully without annoying to many. First, several people have made comments about the "declining" nature of Misty's work. In several cases I have gotten a sense that the people making the comments were feeling rather antagonistic towards the author. I could be mistaken in my impressions of course. One person even refered to Lackey's recent work as trash. My question is, why are these people still reading her books and why are they members of a "fan" mailing list? Honestly it makes no sense to read books you don't like if you don't have to. I don't expect anyone to like her work, even former fans. If I thought it was trash I wouldn't read it. The other issue is the Last Straw. I have read it and even writen to the list on the subject previously. My impression of the feelings of most of the people who have taken exception to it is again antagonism and long suffering anoyance. I can understand this point of veiw, but do not necesarily agree. It was a rant and not constructive in the sense of causing people to mend their ways. On the other hand it was no doubt a cathartic exercise, including having it posted on line. Those who do not understand this and see it as childish are likley different from Misty in that such exercises do them no good. This does not mean that it does Misty no good. Different people have different ways of venting, as it is with all things. Don't villify the woman because her ways of dealing with stress and anger are different. It you found the letter anoying why keep reading, no one forced it on you. "The Last Straw" is neither good nor bad,it simply is. Only our impressions are good or bad. Enough of this seriousness. I enjoy the list and intend to go on doing so. I hope that no one is ofended by my comments, because none was intended. Cheese and Crackers Chris Huning "Never try to out stubborn a cat." -Robert Heinlein ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 14:21:23 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: on: rants/Valdemar/Barbie/Kellan/winterrobin/Lackey/English Patient Message-ID: <9703111321.AA07610-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Greetings, I am slowly recovering my "san froid" after a disaster of a trip back from London on Sunday night - closed airports, diverted flights, coach trips, too many people on the plane. I should have been home around 21.00 - crawled in at 02.45, then crawled back out to work 5 hours later. I still have the headache to prove it. So, the Last Straw - well that sure rattled our cages didn't it? I'm in the Cen school here - principally I think she should have written it, gone out for a pizza or a curry, had a good nights sleep, then edited it a touch - just like I've done with my initially histrionic letter to the airline that ruined my Sunday. The version I've just finished is far more likely to get me my free ticket than yesterday's tirade! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jonathon wrote a mail about his ideas on where Valdemar came from - I didn't want you to think no-one read it - I did. It can be disheartening when your careful theory sinks like a stone! I must admit I don't "see" Valdemar much - visualisation ain't ML's strongpoint (her people are a different matter). I probably do see it as a stylised 15/16th century Europe - I don't really know enough about the pre-JC world to visualise it there. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I read Kara's long mail on gut-reactions to Barbie with interest - I was certainly one of those who reacted strongly against it, so wanted to see if Kara managed to put her finger on anything for me. I think my reaction stemmed from the same root that stops me buying some books because the covers are soooo hackneyed, or that stops me reading illustrated fantasy books (especially when they're illustrated by a certain LD) on the bus. There's a lot of people out there who dismiss fantasy as rubbish, without ever having read any, and who will never, ever attempt to read any. Lurid covers of Tolkeinesque characters with bolts of lightening coming from their hands, stories with pictures in them, and tie-in dolls with dinky little outfits are all grist to their mills. It proves that this is a jeuvenile literary form, aimed at jeuvenile minds. Well it ain't. So, I feel introducing Barbie dolls and plastic companions belittles what is often intelligent, provoking, absorbing writing, most certainly *not* aimed at jeuvenile minds. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Renee asked about Kellan's sex change in SoI - yep we've chewed that one over, major blooper by our illustious ML. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Winterrobin - errrm, hold on there a minute - who's uncaring here? Yes it's a horrible world out there, yes there are millions of rotten little lives that end too soon, with too little joy and laughter in them, but don't go accusing people on this list of being uncaring or having hearts of stone - on what evidence for heavens sake? As far as I recall, the main gripe here has been over whether ML chose the most appropriate wording and venue for her tirade. *Nobody* has adversly commented on the death of the child. Not nobody. It was a terrible thing. The death of a child always is, something to do with all that unused potential. I don't know who your mail was aimed at, but as a listmember I found it insulting. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Chris Huning asked why we're all so down on ML's more recent work, and why we're still here if we think it's so awful. Hope? Loyalty? Good memories? Like why do I: keep on buying McCaffrey long after she stopped writing books I really enjoy; keep hoping McKinley'll write another Damar book (altho' any new book'd do!) keep plodding on through Jordan's WoT saga; have Tolkein's Silmarillion and Last Tales or whatever it was; when you find an author that clicks, you don't want to let go - we expect a steady supply of the same standard. We want to keep in touch with our favourites, even when they want to retire with a good book of their own and sit in front of a fire (look at all the "What happened to Talia" stuff that's been here lately), we want the newcomers to fit in - they become sort of family - we care what happens, want to know they're happy, want to keep up with the latest gossip and scandal. That's why! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I'm reading The English Patient at the moment - having seen the film last week. I enjoyed the film - although I was slightly puzzled by all the Oscar nominations and critical acclaim - it was good, but *that* good? However, as I read the book, which is excellent, the visualisations I am now getting and remembering from the film are tremendous. It's a stunning adaptation, and I'm considering going to see it again, once I've finished the book. It's actually lasted me three days so far - me who galloped through SoI in about 2-3 hours - it must be good, and Ralph Ffiennes is ab-so-loot-ly gorgeous in it! (Mind you, a man prepared to have a very public affair with a woman 20 years his senior has to earn brownie points in my book) That's me, I have work building up, and an airline-induced headache to nurse! dooie, Esmeralda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: Narilka1-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: small braid Message-ID: <970311084344_1714478512-+AT+-emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-11 03:08:02 EST, you write: << > No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades >> will seriously cramp his style. > >Hey! That's my signature! Find your own quote! =) (Seriously, I don't >mind and I am glad to see another Brust fan--there are a few of us here, >but I think most are hiding in the woodwork...you'd think they were >teckla! *grin and sheeps*) >> Steven Burst.......Yes...I LOVE his books...and his characters.....specially *Sethra* and who can forget *Loishi* (ok Boss)......hah...i love the stuff....By the bye...theres another Novel coming out this year.... OBmisty---- Pamela Lunsford wrote: > > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it > against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny > annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't > read the other two books. trust me...it gets Musch better at the later books...he does grow up...and loses some of his *whinny* bit...not all...but some of it......(carfully hide myself from the pink wand gang) the books are definitely worth reading..... GB Artisian in training....... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:06:41 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: De-Lurking Message-ID: <970311100640_1680930289-+AT+-emout03.mail.aol.com> Heyla I have not been in this stuff long enough to really know what is going on so could some one please tell this confused Dragon what is going on? I have been reading misty forever and i think i'm a little obsesed. ::::Uh Wurm, I think having your own set of whites as well as your own bardic outfit is a bit much.:::: Thanx Cheet. Anyway, what is this last straw thing? I was offline for a while and now it seems that all perceptions on misty have changed, from what i gather she was kinnda upset and made every one else just so I have no idea what to think. GOts to GO Zhai'hellava, Fire Wurm, the one and only Vertual Purple Dragon May the wolves of your desteny be just Blessed Be ::::Be OK:::: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:34:24 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vanyel/Brust/TLS Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Pamela Lunsford wrote: > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it > against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny > annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't > read the other two books. I know that we've gotten several responses to this already, but as a knight of the OAM I feel I should add in my $.02. I truly love Vanyel and the LHM books. I think that part of that is because I was able to see some of myself in Vanyel. I enjoy music and have considered making a career of it, at times. Unfortuately, there were always many people around that it came so much easier to. I had teachers tell me to pursue things that I was better at, because I could never be a great, world-famous musician. That sort of thing gets really discouraging after a while. When they Vanyel that he can't be a Bard, my heart went out to him. I can completely understand how heart-broken he must have been. To reach for a dream all your life and then have all your hopes so completely squashed like his were by the Bards is pretty harsh. So, I guess that I can forgive him being kind of whiny because I can sympathise with some of his problems. Considering all that he goes through in MPawn, it's a wonder that he turns out to be as great a guy as he is. :) I would definately suggest reading the other two books, because (if his childish attitude is what turned you off) he definately matures as he gets older. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cenydd wrote: >> No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades >> will seriously cramp his style. > >Hey! That's my signature! Find your own quote! =) (Seriously, I don't >mind and I am glad to see another Brust fan--there are a few of us here, >but I think most are hiding in the woodwork...you'd think they were >teckla! *grin and sheeps*) Hi! I'm one of the other fans. ;) I'm surely no Teckla :P, but the woodwork is a nice, comfy, homey sort of place, you know. :) Feel free to visit, any time you want to talk Brust. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Also, everyone's been so up in arms about the Last Straw. What exactly is that? Does anyone have a copy or know where I can find one? I'm a little in the dark about it. What was it in response to? Help. :( Renee Markowicz Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I've half a mind--" the green rider began. Pre-Veterinary Student |"Obviously," Robinton cut in. (_Dragonquest_) **High Priestess of |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Procrastination** |"Why is it that your people always ask if a Confused? Just Ask! |person is 'ready' just before they are about to Visit my homepage: ;) |do something monumentally unwise?" -Delenn (_B5_) http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:24:08 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Pamela Lunsford wrote: > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it > against the wall more than once. Vanyel struck me as a whiny > annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't > read the other two books. > But I see lots of people here who just love Vanyel. > Who knows, maybe I read it on a day when the day care kids had > been getting to me and that colored my perceptions. Does anyone > else feel this way or is it just me? > I'm willing to give it another stab if he does grow up. >> While I agree that Vanyel is a whiny brat in the first book (Pause to duck the incoming dark looks and rotten vegetable hurled by the OAM), I like the Vanyel chracter. Unlike many of the Herald stories, Vanyel is fallible, he has weaknesses as well as strengths. He's human, he whines, cries, complains, but still, when it comes down to it, gets the job done. He is willing to sacrafice. Vanyel is a tragic character. He is among the few whose story doesn't end, "And he lived happily ever after" upon being Chosen. (Like Talia and Dirk lifebond) He mourns the loss of his life-bonded for the remainder of his life. He has very few friends or family members with whom he has a loving relationship. Vanyel does love family, but he deliberately puts distance between himself and them, to reduce the risk of his family being used as a weapon against him, and/or them getting killed in a strike at Vanyel. (MPromise/ MPrice). Almost all of his close friends are killed, and he losses an important member of his family who was like a mother to him, and nursed him through his illness. Vanyel does "grow up" to be remarkably self-sacrificing. At the same time, he remains human. After returning from the Karsite fronts, he does whine a bit from exhaustion and sorrow. I like Vanyel; he is one of my favorite characters. It is his humanity and weaknesses that make him a believable character. I'll leave it to the members of OAM to defend his character flaws. Peace, Lady Lydia psu07362-+AT+-odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:26:49 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ranting and Nutcases Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, The Marquise wrote: > On the subject of TLS and ranting, I mostly agree with Cennydd. I can Yeah. What He Said, etc. (he being Cennydd, just had a minor bout of deletitis ). > I think there's a difference here. People are *afraid* of Anne Rice. You > don't run into many people in Misty's hometown saying, "You know that Lackey > woman is really creepy. She has a skeleton in a bridal gown in her house." > Don't get me wrong- I love Anne Rice's work. I think she's got a bit of the > dark genius in her. (even if Memnoch wasn't as good as her other Vampire > Chronicles, but I digress) Still, she has a tendency to scare people away. > The majority of the nutcases out there who would harrass her probably think > she's that much scarier than they are. This isn't to say that she hasn't > probably had situations that were similar, but they probably don't bother > her as much. I would think that Anne Rice would especially be protective of > her son Christopher considering that she already lost a six year old > daughter to luekemia. It's not a matter of worrying about a child, though. > Anne Rice can get away with more than Misty can because she has a reputation. > Yes. Yes I definitly agree with that. And I can speak from personal experience... I have something of a similar reputation in my school. 90% due to my religion (Wicca) and 10% due to the fact that I'm outspoken and have semi-radical opinions, depending on who you talk to. I know for a fact that there are people who are afraid of me, though for the most part I have no contact with them beyond seeing them in the hallways. I rather feel that they probably would harass me, in the general way of cliques and pecking orders, except for the fact that they *are* afraid of me. The one person who *did* harass me went as far as a death threat before I made it quite clear that I would not tolerate that (went to the Admin, threatened to drag it before the Honor Committee). I don't know waht happened to him as far as I'm concerned... and the fear of me keeps the kids from harassing me, and keeps a lot of other from it as well. And while I don't particularly *like* it, it's a fact of life I deal with, and it's definitly a possible occurance.. especially with Anne Rice. Yes, I'm an Anne Rice Fan. Love, Jaguar J-------------------------------------------------------------J A Leader of the Cat People * Goddess of Large Hunter Cats * A G Chronicler of the Mage Wars * Lady In Green * Knight of Amb G U er and Marigold * Warrior of Wits * Consort of Gryphons * U A ----------------------------------------------------------- A R YOUR God, YOUR Rules, YOU get to go to hell R !-------------------------------------------------------------! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 07:39:17 -0900 From: gordonb-+AT+-jsd.k12.ak.us (Becca Gordon, JDHS, Juneau, AK) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: De-lurk?/Sorry very short Message-ID: Hella, I'm sorry in advance because this is going to be a short post. I just like to say that After reading last straw I understand why she wrote it. My oppinion may offend so if your sensitive stop reading now. If your life was threatened and you tried to help a friend and her child excape an abusive husband just to have the child shot and husband suicide. then have a million wakos writing you all of them convinced that what you had written as an intertaining story just had to be true I'm shure that you would be a little upset too! Just give her some slack and hope that the wierdos crawl back into the hole where they came from. ( Sheeps to all those who fee the same) May all your lives be happy. (would the listsib named Stormwind contact me privatly via e-mail) Thanks It's allways interesting! -NightFire gordonb-+AT+-jsd.k12.ak.us ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:05:10 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: elspeth debate Message-ID: Elspeth if you can under stand her is over confidence and the arrogance of youth. Most of us are most likely young (no offense to my elders of which there should be some reading this) and should be able to remember some rather bull headed things that we have done in the name of "just because you told me to I WON'T. Also you'll probably remember ranting against the iniventable (vcan't spell at all ) Because most of us hate it to. Also on the subject of Misty and Wicca-- In the past few years there have been tv specials on Wicca --boks about it -- and at one point I remember my pastor freaking out because the goverment had recozinized it (I still can't spe;ll or type). Acually you don't have to believe in some thing to know a lot about it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:11:23 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: missing mail? Message-ID: <199703111715.MAA17201-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> This is a very short post on something that puzzles me. Several times in the last week, I've gotten posts from the list which refer to, or even quote, posts which I haven't gotten. Once or twice (notably someone's post of TLS to the list) I got it eventually, but not before I read about 5 posts thanking him/her for posting it to the list. Anyone else have this problem? Any ideas on how to solve it? (At least one of my own posts also went missing, but since it was during the weekend snafu Mel wrote about, I figured it got lost in that particular shuffle.) Kara "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:13:28 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: SOI Message-ID: <199703111812.AA284973947-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> Hmmm...it's about time I delurked. With the little free time I have, I bought SOI and began reading. Of course, I came up with a few questions/comments... S P O I L E R S P A C E One of the first stories I read was "Blue Heart." Like others, I'm still trying to figure out how only Selenay, Kero, Alberich (and Daren?) knew about the "shadow" even existing. He's like Skif in that they're both spy and assassin trained, but everyone knows Skif. Why is this one so different? It's said that "shadow" has a scarred soul and past, but most of the Heralds we know of had similar circumstances. That and the hobby of his Companion aren't enough to warrant his secrecy. The only explanations I came up with are the following: First, it may be an attempt by the Queen to preserve the "pure" image of the Circle. It's very uncomfortable to imagine the noble, honorable Heralds as assassins as well--even though they are trianed to protect and kill. Plus, if a Herald is ordered to assassinate someone, the others in the Circle may treat him/her differently from that point on. Having an unknown do the deed may be easier on the circel. But, in WoF, Selenay does authorize Elspeth's group to go into Hardorn and kill Ancar. This counters my explanation, but in "Blue Heart," Elspeth is studying with the Hawkbrothers, and Selenay's outlook may have changed by the time her daughter abdicates. Secondly, what if this position is something the Companions insisted on doing? They've meddled before with little or no explanations. That's all for my observations, but I have one more question. Wasn't Dirk trained as am assassin, too? When Kero first sees him, she notices that he is guarding Talia's back, and that he moved like an assassin. And, when they're in the waystation, Kris is telling Talia about Dirk's gentleness. But, he also says that he has seen Dirk kill in cold blood--hardly the description of a fair, overt fight. Comments? Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:36:09 -0800 From: Gessika Rovario To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The Last Straw, Soapbox, Anne Rice Message-ID: Zombie, I cannot thank you enough for posting this. I kept meaning to go the Firebird page and never got around to it. Now I *know* what to be miffed about. ;] Now I guess it's time for me to get on my own soapbox. I don't think the tone of TLS {Hope there's not a book with this abbreviation} was too strong at all. True, it won't be read by everyone who's threatening Misty, but if it deters *one* nut or stops one kid {or adult} from being sucked into a cult, it's gotta be worth it. Actually, if I'd written it, the tone would have been much stronger. I mean, these people had a BABY SHOT in their house. Misty and Larry are remarkable for not becoming hermits, let alone still going to book signings and conventions. The only problem I had with the whole essay & note from Teri Lee was finding out that Misty's just writing for the cash. That is really *really* depressing. Now I'll get off this soapbox, before I fall off. ;} As to how Anne Rice deals with nuts, She embraces them. {literally and figuratively} I'm a fan, so I try to keep up with her appearances on TV and radio. She's totally open. Hell, she tried to give her personal phone number out on the Rosie O'Donnel show. I'm not sure this is the best way to deal with the sanity-challenged, but it seems to work for her. I would say that I'm going to re-lurk now, but I just can't seem to stay underground on this list. Must be the company. 8) Gessi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:34:56 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel - What am I missing? Message-ID: Pamela wrote: > I read the first Herald mage book, and wanted to throw it > against the wall more than once. That's fine with me. Van *is* frustrating sometimes even if you like him a lot. We OAM Van-advocates are here more to remind people to respect and be kind to Mr. Ashkevron (says the committee of one), not to make everyone like him. (P.S. This took me a couple of tries to get through due to address snafu--Oops, I see that this is now a touch redundant. Oh well, I like what I wrote so I'll post it anyway. : Comments, anyone?) Vanyel struck me as a whiny > annoying brat, and I didn't want anymore to do with him so I didn't > read the other two books. With regard to this, however, wait until you've read the other two books; you don't see him at his best in MPawn, y'know. And how many 16 yr-olds actually have a lot of substantial, respect-commanding accomplishments to offset the erosion of respect that comes from childhood faults, eh? (I came up with that question when I started to upbraid my young self for not having accomplished anything in my life; it seems somewhat relevent when one wonders how to judge Van.) When you're tempted to characterize Van as whiny it helps to first remember the things little alex (is that what you want to be called?) pointed out about his life being unhappy. He undergoes physical, verbal, and emotional abuse, and that's before the whole 'Lendel disaster--he's supposed to have been loved, coddled, and spoiled by his mother, but... reread what he thinks about it; it seems to have induced a deal of cynicism in him. Treesa cared for him because he was decorative--sounds like a pretty shallow relationship to me. And he couldn't rely on her to defend him except when it served as a means to her own ends, primarily her increased comfort. There's something about that relationship that also strikes me as emotionally abusive, using the child-Van's hunger for love and approval. There are three criteria for whininess: whiny thoughts, whiny words, and whiny actions. Van does some of all three in MPawn, but mostly thoughts. Now the way you know a whiner in real life is that they're always complaining, even when they don't have much to complain about (words), and they're doing more complaining than acting to improve their lives (actions). You have to guess about what goes through the whiner's head (thoughts), unless they're the viewpoint character of a novel ..As Vanyel is. It makes him *seem* whinier than he actually is. His "woe is me" thoughts affect us readers the same way they would if he were saying it rather than feeling it; some of his apparent whininess is an optical illusion. As for words, Van doesn't actually spend a lot of time talking about what bothers him or how unhappy he feels (if he *had* known it might be possible to find someone to confide in at Haven besides 'Lendel, he might have blown the whistle and saved 'Lendel's life when his lover went vengeance-mad); mostly he uses talking as a way of fighting back--putting up an "invincible" front, getting one-up on others, gathering admirers by playing up to their expectations... And while his "fighting back" does take an obnoxious form, it is not whininess, it's willed effort to make life less hurtful for him. His methods were arguably wrongheaded and probably ultimately destructive, but he did *try*. Action--the third arena in which someone might show themselves a whiner... The pre-Lendel Van doesn't fit the whininess criteria. The post-Lendel Van is dealing with the aftermath of an unhealthy relationship, plus normal grieving, lifebond-survivor's trauma, an Empathic awareness of resentment or outright *anger* directed toward his actions and continued survival, the emotional tangle of his altered familial and social status, and backlash shock and other physical trauma--I don't know what kind of criteria to apply, but if he wasn't depressed and occasionally petulant, he would *not* be going through the stages of bereavement; he'd either be super-repressed or supernatural. I don't think he can be truly called whiny, not even in the first book. An unsympathetic character for some readers, and potentially annoying--but his depressions were reasonable under the circumstances and he handled them ...not maturely or reasonably, because his upbringing distorted his perceived avenues of dealing with things... with a kind of courage and steadfastness, carrying on no matter what kind of inner muddle and extremity of emotional pressure piled on him. Well, that went on quite a bit longer than I meant, sheeps, but I finally organized my thoughts on the matter, and it all came out--my equivalent of our departed HTH's promised-but-not-finished Van Essay. But I think your real question was, Should I keep reading? Yes, he does grow up. In MPromise his depressive tendancies still show. His reasons mutate. But in MPrice he spends *no* time moping in any of his onstage bits (tho' he does worry some about other people's safety, and he rants a bit at one point). On the whole, as he gets real power he gets to *show* his admirable qualities. I loved MPawn because I felt for Van right away, and continued to feel for him even after he got brattier in Chapter 4 (or wherever it was). I think for a lot of us it was the same. But I agree with Cen--the presence of Mr. Ashkevron isn't the only reason to read LHM. --be well-- *~the Eternally Nourished Lee, Lady Knight of the OAM and OOPS, Spreader of Humor, Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"~* <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> or Meta Geek Code: !gc (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/) ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1130 **********************************