MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1132 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) gitterns/historical parallels/criticizing ML/SOI spoiler/waiting for paperbacks by "John and Kara Pekar" 2) Re: Misty's friends by Gessika Rovario 3) everything by Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com 4) Re: Braid of many subjects by Chris & Sean Talbot 5) Bye for now by Mat the Cat in Green 6) fans vs friends...I by cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net 7) Re: Ranting and Nutcases/Van & Death/Gwena by EmiGryphon-+AT+-aol.com 8) Saddest Scene by "Alexandra Y. Kwan" 9) Criticism irrelevant? | Fan vs. Friend | Dragon*Con by "H.D. Wegemer" 10) re: Bye for now by Gessika Rovario 11) Gwena/Blurbs/Threes by jcameron-+AT+-tiac.net 12) Re: Gwena by Megan Schreiber 13) Criticism by Michele and Tony 14) Re: Saddest scenes by georg-+AT+-swbell.net 15) Re: Musings on Vanyel by "Pamela Lunsford" 16) Re: Criticism irrelevant? | Fan vs. Friend | Dragon*Con by kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) 17) Re: Criticism by kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) 18) Re: Ranting and Nutcases/Van & Death/Gwena by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 19) Re: Criticism irrelevant? | Fan vs. Friend | Dragon*Con by MELVIN NEVERGOLD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:56:28 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: Subject: gitterns/historical parallels/criticizing ML/SOI spoiler/waiting for paperbacks Message-ID: <199703121700.MAA25874-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> (All right, let's try this one more time. I've tried to post this twice already, but as far as I can tell it hasn't gotten through. Apologies to all that it is not quite as timely as it was, but most of the threads are still active. Apologies and chocolate-covered sheep if it *did* get through before, and somehow missed getting back to me.) Re: gitterns: Ashkeiryana Moonbright (EmiGryphon) quoted me, then replied: <>instrument-maker who sells Van an instrument for Medren (can't >> rememberwhether it was a lute or a gittern)>> >The main reason that that instrument was something other that a 12 stringed >glittern, and the part that was invented, was that they had metal strings >instead of gut strings. Remembre, Master Dawson also had a 6 stringed one! What Master Dawson invented was the 12-string, metal-strung gittern; he also created a 6-stringed metal-strung gittern. The 6-string, gut-strung gittern already existed, and Vanyel was familiar with it. What amazed Vanyel (and made him want a 12-string) was the incredible difference in the tone and timbre, as compared to the ordinary gut-strung 6-string he and other Bards were accustomed to. Textevd: "He opened up a hatch in the floor of the crowded wagon, and began pulling out instruments...Two lutes, a harp -- and three instruments vaguely gittern-shaped, but -- much larger." (LHM, SFBookClub ed., p. 392 [MPromise, Ch.5]) This shows that gitterns were already known, but are smaller than the new, 12-string version. And then there are Master Dawson's own words: "Been trying gitterns with metal strings, 'stead of gut..." (ibid., p. 393) But my point is that there were not any 12-string gitterns of any ilk before this, because Vanyel's jaw drops when he sees that one. (ibid., p. 394) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jonathan, I liked your theory relating Velgarthan history to ancient Greek/Persian history...I wish I knew enough about that period of history to comment effectively. I hope someone who knows more than I do picks up your thread; it could produce some interesting discussion. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Re "The Last Straw"and Misty's writing, Chris Huning wrote: >we should be suporting _HER_ not arguing among ourselves >about whether or not she should have writen the last straw or >complaining about the decline of her writing "in our opinion." I do support Misty as a person, as I suspect most of the people on this list do. I think it's sad that she has to deal with the unpleasantness of unbalanced people. But this list exists *for the purpose* of discussing ML's written works. Therefore, it should be possible to discuss the relative quality, polish, likeability, etc. of those works (including TLS), without that criticism being extended to her as a person. I'm a singer; if you criticize the way I sang a particular song, are you criticizing me? my voice? or my performance of a particular song? Actors get bad notices for rotten performances, whether or not they are generally good actors; the same can be said for any creative profession. Artists have good "days" and bad "days", and those who enjoy their art can be forgiven for being disappointed if a particular work does not live up to the usual high standard. (In fact, I'd say it's a compliment to Misty as a writer that we care enough about her work to occasionally be disappointed in it.) SWORD OF ICE SPOILER++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Emily the invisible said: >Shadowsong said: >>At that time he was so involved with the arms masters that there was >>no way he could have been a herald that only the Queen knew existed. >>Actually, it just hit me! Is it even possible for there to be a >>Herald that only the Queen knows about? Look at Talia's training... >>All the Herald-Trainees are fairly well known, and they are hanging >>around the Palace most of the time. How could there be a Herald who >>went through that training, but no one knows about? I suppose it's possible, if you postulate the following: One of Kero's company was Chosen, perhaps following the mop-up when they returned to Haven. (I think it's a bit much to suggest yet another mid-battle Choosing!) This newly-Chosen Herald-elect would already have been trained in undercover work, spying, assassination, etc. Since he doesn't know any of the Valdemarans well, the newly-Chosen goes directly to Kero to tell her what has happened. Quick to see the possiblities, and aware that Valdemar's "defense department" is a bit lacking in this area, Kero talks to Daren, Selenay, and Alberich. Probably the only other Herald who is told is Teren, since he has taken over running the Collegium. The new Herald gets his "heraldic" training either directly from Alberich and Teren, or possibly disguised as a Blue -- maybe both. (Added thought -- If his Companion is as aware of the need for someone like this as Kero is, his Companion may even have told him not to reveal his Chosen status to anyone until he had talked to Kero.) It wouldn't be necessary to hide his status from other *Companions*, since they are obviously highly skilled at keeping secrets! Support for this series of suppositions: "Very few people -- Kerowyn, Alberich, her own husband Daren -- even knew he existed, much less what he really looked like." We can assume, therefore, that he disguises himself when he is in Haven. The page announced him as a Herald, so he was wearing Whites when he went to see Selenay; that means that it is his actual appearance that he disguises. (Incidentally, this also gives us a clue to how many Heralds there are: enough that most Heralds do not know every single Herald by sight.) The sentence quoted above also supports the list of people I postulated as being in on the secret, with the exception of Teren. I do think it would be very difficult to train a Herald surreptitiously without the knowledge and cooperation of the Dean. However, if he were disguised as a Blue, I suppose it is possible. I'm also a bit surprised that Talia isn't among those listed as being "in the know"; surely as Queen's Own she ought to be told? Incidentally, he can't be Skif. "He, like Skif, was a spy and an assassin..." Oh, and I thought of another possible tie-in. Remember the agent who was sitting in Kero's office, picking off bits of warts, etc., in the middle of WFury? The one who brought the information about what was going on in Hardorn...Could be our "invisible" Herald, no? Elspeth had never seen him before, but that holds up; according to "Blue Heart" she wasn't ever in on the secret. And no one else who might have to do with him would necessarily know him as a Herald; to them, he would just have been one of Kero's anonymous spies. (Quotes were from "Blue Heart", SoI, US edition, p. 335.) END OF SPOILER+++++++++++++++++++++++ Kathy Chadman wrote: >One thing I have never brought up but had bothered me for awhile >was how long her books are in hardcover before coming out in soft. >I don't dispute her right to make a living but it was just >a personal frustration to wait a whole year before getting to read >the books. Actually, the length of time a book remains in hardcover before coming out in soft cover has little to do with the author. It tends to be a publisher policy. As an ex-bookstore manager (yes, one of *those* chains!), I can tell you that the average time from hc to pb release is 11 months. You do occasionally get publishers or imprints who use a 10-month time period, but anything shorter is pretty rare (or was when I was in the business.) I think if you check on the hc-pb time for other, similar authors, you'll find that it is also around a year. And yes, it is frustrating, which is why it tends to sell more books. All I can suggest is that you try interlibrary loan, beg/borrow from friends, or haunt used bookstores and get on good terms with the manager so they'll call you when/if one comes in. Wind to thy wings, Kara "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:35:34 -0800 From: Gessika Rovario To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty's friends Message-ID: Crys wrote: >> as a fan I consider myself her friend Then, {I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, but I can't remember who wrote this bit} this was written > This is a *completely* personal opinion, but I don't think that >being a fan of someone qualifies you as a friend. I'm a fan of Misty, but I >don't know anything about her personal life, nor do she and I share >anything that would resemble friendship ... again, IMHO, perhaps this >is where so many "flakes" begin their delusions.. they think that just >because they connect with an author's work, this automatically gives >them the right to make personal comments on the author's life or to >consider themselves a part of the author's life... Then, Chris wrote {this is getting complicated } >I don't think it is fair or appropriate to imply that someone is a >flake or delusional for considering themselves a friend of a favorite >author. IMHO indeed, this smacks of pettiness more than anything else. Now I'm writing. I don't see any pettiness in implying that someone is a flake for thinking they're a friend of a fave author. And I don't find it insulting. If you think you're friends with someone who's not met or even knows of you, it's kind of flaky. This doesn't mean that you're a total flake, just about this one thing. {And if you can get through life being flaky on just one subject, you are totally amazing. } Small chocolate sheeps to anyone who's pissed at me. Huge mulit-flavored sheeps to anyone who agrees with me. {Yeah, I play favorites. Who doesn't?} Peace to all. Gessi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:52:59 -0500 (EST) From: Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: everything Message-ID: <970312125258_686820568-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> My opinion on TLS: Misty had a right to be angry but was more hateful than necessary. and so was heather Van: I just don't think Van was a really *likable* person, I could relate to him , sorta' and the writing was excelent and i cried in the end were Stef is about to suicide, but I never really liked him, he was to ...I don't know self-pitying maybe....in the first book he was a brat, in the second book he was"Oh woe is me, my poor Tylendel is gone" like Tashir said, its been twelve years, get over it, and then in the last bok which was the best of the lot, the "oh he's cute but I can't" thing with Stefen , pretty cool when Stef said just shut up and kiss me da--it(my english teacher would freak out if he saw this horrible montstrosity of a run-on sentence). And some one said something about The Gryphon books being co-authored, she co-authored them with her husband Larry Dixon, on whos shoulders I squarely place the blame of the not-goodness, even though they weren't that bad. What was this about a kid being shot? Oh dear, I really went out on a controversial limb, I'll shut up now. "May you see with eyes oflight in ever-dark, may your mind walk free and unfettered amongst all, touching wisely and well. May you go in peace"--Last fairwell of the Ghatti Shadowsong ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:20:51 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid of many subjects Message-ID: <199703121920.OAA00971-+AT+-relief.idirect.com> >asked > do you think that Lightwing would be a more >> appropriate name for a Misty name? > >Fine by me. How did you come up with Aistes? Is it from some obscure >Greek play or something? Aistes was in a name list of a friends of mine. I saw it and instantly liked it have used the name for now about 3 years. I love the name but I am getting tired of it in lots of ways because it doesn't sound the way I want it to. It really doesn't sound like a name Misty would use. Most of the names I use tend to be Tayledras style. That is why I like my other names better. Aistes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: Mat the Cat in Green To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Bye for now Message-ID: Hey all, This is just to let everyone know that, for now, I'm going to be unsubscribing from the list. Partly it's because I just don't have the time to read as many lists as I do, and still get my school work done. And lately, I find myself deleting most of my mistylist posts unread, or barely skimmed. In the past month, I doubt that any of my responses had more than a casual obMisty amid the fluff. And there are other places where the fluff is more appropriate, and more fun. I just don't have much to say about Misty at the moment. Hey after 2.5 or so years of "Is Sayvil Savil?" and "Does Van have the Bardic Gift" I could use a rest. :) I'll still be on the Bower and MageWar lists and I'm still reading private mail, so write me if you want to talk to me. :) Oh, and Deniz and Renee are still in charge of accepting My tithes until I return. :) Mat Cat Person, Champion in Green, |"I raised my head, my arms like lead, Adept, God of Procrastination | My heart ablaze once more! Heathen #149, and OoUL/L of tLotPW | The Faerie Queen looked down on me, mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu | shaken to the core." http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ | -- Heather Alexander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:09:17 -0500 From: cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: fans vs friends...I Message-ID: <3327379D.286-+AT+-spectra.net> Chris Huning wrote: > I don't think it is fair or appropriate to imply that someone is a > flake or delusional for considering themself a freind of a favorite > author. IMHO indeed, this smacks of pettiness more than anything else. Ok ... let me try and explain what I meant in more detail. ;) My original statement was... > IMHO, perhaps this is where so many "flakes" begin their delusions.. >they think that just because they connect with an author's work, this >automatically gives them the right to make personal comments on the >author's life or to consider themselves a part of the author's life... First, let me stress that I used the word "flakes" because that was one term (among many) used in TLS. I'm not talking about every fan here, I was referring to those who are causing problems with Misty and are one of the causes of TLS. I'm looking at this from a psychological point of view ... the people who think the Guardians are real, that Misty is a part of this order, or those who think that the people/places/things Misty wrote about are true can be classified as delusional. I simply wanted to toss out the idea that part of the delusion may stem, IN PART, from a feeling a familiarity with Misty ... I'm sure there are many other characteristics that would have to be studied, and this isn't only with those fans of Misty who may take their fantasies a bit far, but with any person who has trouble defining reality. I still hold true with my statement however, that just because you are a fan doesn't necessarily grant you the title of friend. Then again, I suppose this would depend on what your personal definition of friendship is. Let me throw out a personal experience here ... I worked in radio for three years (and may do so again) ... I have first-hand experience with fans ... and I can tell you that while I was flattered at their support and their affection, I did not consider them friends. And, I have also gone through the whole experience of having someone stalk me ... no death threats, but just an obsessive desire to be near me, becuase this person believed that there was a bond between me and him, all because he listened to me on the radio. Now, this pales in comparison to what Misty is going through, but the underlying feelings are similiar I think. I hope this helps to clarify my earlier post on the subject. Crys -- ---------Christopher J. Kocher-------Crystal D. Sarakas-------- ----------------------cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net--------------------- "Would anybody like to write a song with me now? A line at a time?" - Ray Davies, during a CompuServe chat "It is appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed our humanity." - Albert Einstein -------Ask about ordering information for "Ninth Aspect"------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:09:46 -0500 (EST) From: EmiGryphon-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ranting and Nutcases/Van & Death/Gwena Message-ID: <970312190746_45591101-+AT+-emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-11 15:16:01 EST, Jaguar writes: << I have something of a similar reputation in my school. 90% due to my religion (Wicca) and 10% due to the fact that I'm outspoken and have semi-radical opinions, depending on who you talk to. I know for a fact that there are people who are afraid of me, though for the most part I have no contact with them beyond seeing them in the hallways. I rather feel that they probably would harass me, in the general way of cliques and pecking orders, except for the fact that they *are* afraid of me. >> Humph. Well, I certainly know that particular feeling. Not only am I a Witch with a Jewish background and a general dislike for organized religion, I'm a six foot tall woman with black hair and a face that gets more stone-like the more I'm angry or upset. I'm also an all out supporter of the right to choose wether or not to have an abortion, gays, and any minorities or supressions. Hmm...maybe "extremely open minded" would be the best way to put it. Add to that pile that my dress and manner are *not* "normal", and Boom! half of the school is scared of me!!!!! OK... that's a pile of ranting. Sheeps to all... I noticed that many people think the scene between Vanyel and the Shadow-lover was the saddest. You know, I always think of that scene fondly, and I think it's a bout as joyus as you can get in those books. I mean, here Van has a place to vent and release all his fears and be comforted! It is sad, but happily so, if anyone understands what I mean? Gwena is puzzeling me. I mean, she's a Grove-Born Companion, we know that. But she's soooo stupid!!!! It's explained to us by Van in ghost-form that she's young and inexperienced, and Elspeth should allow for mistakes, but it's also said that since Elspeth was going to be the first of wave # 2 of the Herald-Mages, she couldn't have just an "oridinary" companion. Well, why didn't she get Sayvil? Or one of the old Herlad-Mages reincarnated as a Companion? Would that not have been a better choice if Elspeth was to have a "smarter-that-average" Companion? And besides, Gwena is stupid even as Grove-Borns go! Rolan is not that stupid and we have never heard of any other Grove-Born Companion being *stupid*. They couldn't have been. Look at King Valdemar and company's Companions. They set the "standard" if you will. They had to be a bit more inteligent than that!! (((very sorry for the lack of textevd, but I'm comfy now and don't want to spen and hour rooting around in my books because I'm bound to stop and read one or two, and then I'll never get my homework done!!))) ....... Well. There. Rant over. Your choice of sheep to those who were bothered and/or emotionally scarred. Be well. *Ashkeryana Moonbright ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:04:19 -0800 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Saddest Scene Message-ID: <33275292.2D72-+AT+-earthlink.net> I thought the saddest scene was the one in MPawn, right before Vanyel's suicide. My tears were dropping even on the tenth time I was reading the book. That Vanyel thinks that he caused Tylendel's death and that Van deserves to die--my heart just went to him. I just want to hold him close, tell him there's a tommorrow, and just let him cry all his grief out. Also, in MPrice, the saddest is the general area from Vanyel dying to Stefen unsuccessful suicide. Van's grim determination to sacrifice his life for his country. (I know all heralds are suppose to do it, but it's still very noble) Anyhow, again, I really don't understand why anyone wouldn't at least feel something for Vanyel. He broke my heart, or more accurately, his not-so-happy life did. I can't help but cry and cry. One more question. How long did Stef and Van last? Excluding the fact that they became ghosts and stuff, starting on the night when Van admitted his love and made love to (with) Stef, how long did their relationship last? 'cause I was doing arithmatic on how old Stef and Van were, and their ages fluctuates a bit. Well, that's my two cents worth. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:41:13 +0000 From: "H.D. Wegemer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Criticism irrelevant? | Fan vs. Friend | Dragon*Con Message-ID: <9703130136.AA10592-+AT+-flash> Chris Wilson commented: > I did not mean to imply blind devotion. On the other hand > "Intelligent conversation" does not always stay that way, or start > that way. It seemed to me that several people were complaining over > much. They made the decision to read the books and should accept > the consequenses to some extent. Not to imply that critisism is > inapropriate in the case of Misty's later works, but at some point > it is no longer relevent. On the contrary, criticism is the _only_ thing relevant on this list. Don't give that blank look. Get the dictionary and check out the word for yourself: Criticism: 1 The act of making judgements; analysis of qualities and evaluation of comparative worth; esp., the critical consideration and judgement of literary or artistic work 2 A comment, review, arcticle, etc. expressing such analysis and judgement. I am, granted, not very active on this list . . . I try to post mostly when I have something relevant to say. However, one of the things I have appreciated about this list since I joined is that it's not just a group of cheerleaders oohing and aahing over every morsel Ms. Lackey tosses our way. There have been strong, critical arguments made, exploring characterization, representation of minority groups, and other threads we have seen in Ms. Lackey's writing. Several members (although their ranks are dwindling) have been here quite long enough to have explored the surface topics (Is Sayvil really Savil? Does Vanyel have the Bardic Gift?) and are understandably dismayed when the questions recur. Instead, we see discussions of aspects of the books -- and life -- that are critical in the best sense of the word. If criticism is no longer relevant, this list has no reason for its existence. For me, the consequences of reading a book include an obligation for critical thought. I must assume that Chris does not find this to be the case. Expressing disappointment that the author is not living up to her promise is no more than a reasonable response to a book that could have been much more than it was. Speaking to specific aspects of this failure is relevant on a list for the discussion of these works. * Heather tosses Chris a pair of blue and silver pom-poms If you wish to run a cheerleading squad for Ms. Lackey, go right ahead. I won't be joining you; that's my prerogative. But neither you nor Melvin Master of Bluntness, not any other individual on this list has ANY right to inform me or anybody else that reasoned criticism is out of place . . . especially since the pom-pom group seems to be significantly newer than those who propose a more thinking approach to the literature. Yes, I'm annoyed . . . I have read several posts to this effect, and may have been referred to in one as being "hateful" without further explanation. However, this is not a flame. Flames involve such things as ad hominem attacks, and I think I have avoided that. My goal is to defend the right to literary criticism on a mailing list devoted to this author and her works. For me, a thinking and critical response to the literature is the responsibility of those who would claim to discuss it. ##################################################################### Gessi wrote: > I don't see any pettiness in implying that someone is a flake for > thinking they're a friend of a fave author. Okay . . . back to the dictionary again. FRIEND 1 A person whom one knows well and is fond of; intimate associate; close acquaintance And with that justification, I'm with Crystal and Gessi on this issue. I read a large part of The Last Straw as discouraging the idea that if you have read Ms. Lackey's works, you necessarily know anything about Ms. Lackey as a person. If you accept Ms. Lackey's thesis, and believe that people have no right to threaten her or dislike her based on what she writes, you must also admit that you have no right to consider her a friend or even like her based on what she writes. You don't know her. Neither do I. She made that quite clear, I thought, in her essay. Although I was disappointed by this seeming deliberate distancing of herself from her fans, I am forced to accept it. ##################################################################### Somebody asked if, after The Last Straw, Ms. Lackey would still be attending Dragon*Con. I spoke directly with the organizer. At this point, Ms. Lackey is still planning to attend the convention. She does have a private bodyguard, but will be available for signings and other stuff. If anybody cares, I can copy over the tentative panels list, or send them by private e-mail. I am also running a secret pals gift exchange at Dragon*Con. The special e-mail address died for reasons unknown . . . just write me here (bookwyrm-+AT+-innocent.com) for full details. So far I only have 1 recorded participant from this list (a dozen from others, though) . . . I hope to get more, as I know several of you are planning to attend, and the exchange should be a lot of fun. ##################################################################### Stars light thy path, wherever it may lead. Heather Wegemer (Not What-She-Said, who is sadly unsubscribed at this point :-( not the singer, not anybody of any real importance at all . . .) --- Although I dwell by choice in realms Ephemeral as phosphor glow It is a life -- it is _my_ life -- As real as aught you know. H. Wegemer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:21:03 -0800 From: Gessika Rovario To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: Bye for now Message-ID: > From: Mat the Cat in Green , on 3/12/97 10:14 > I'll still be on the Bower and MageWar lists and I'm still reading private > mail, so write me if you want to talk to me. :) Oh, and Deniz Renee > are still in charge of accepting My tithes until I return. :) How do I become a member of these lists. I hear a lot of my listsibs speak of them, and they sound like a good time. Gessi Haven't decided on a sigquote yet, but I'm working on it. ;] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:17:33 -0500 (EST) From: jcameron-+AT+-tiac.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Gwena/Blurbs/Threes Message-ID: <199703130217.VAA22557-+AT+-mailnfs0.tiac.net> At 12:38 AM 3/13/97 GMT, EmiGryphon-+AT+-aol.com wrote: >Gwena is puzzeling me. I mean, she's a Grove-Born Companion, we know that. Do we? I know this sounds weird, but I read the Mage Winds before Arrows, and I noticed that in Arrows they didn't mention that. Nor was anyone surprised by Gwena choosing her. I was a bit unsure about that, and I can't seem to find the book now (I think I lent it to someone), so if anyone wants to deny this, feel free. Also, I was just _really_ frustrated by reading the back cover copy on The Black Gryphon. It has to do with the first chapter or two of the book! I've noticed that a few times. . . I know Misty doesn't write them, but you'd think those who do could get /something/ before writing them. A music comment, inspired by my signature. Did anyone else notice that on the tape they changed a word of the song Threes? It turned from "Your sister at your side" to "Your shieldmate at your side." And that was not a Leslac error. It was in the book as sister. I think that's it. Elizabeth Cameron Three things trust above all else, the horse on which you ride, The beast that guides your sleeping and your sister at your side! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:50:13 -0700 From: Megan Schreiber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970313025013.00679dd0-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu> At 02:39 AM 3/13/97 +0000, you wrote: >At 12:38 AM 3/13/97 GMT, EmiGryphon-+AT+-aol.com wrote: >>Gwena is puzzeling me. I mean, she's a Grove-Born Companion, we know that. > >Do we? I know this sounds weird, but I read the Mage Winds before Arrows, >and I noticed that in Arrows they didn't mention that. Nor was anyone >surprised by Gwena choosing her. I was a bit unsure about that, and I can't >seem to find the book now (I think I lent it to someone), so if anyone wants >to deny this, feel free. Arrow's Flight, toward the beginning. (Sorry, no page number...the edition I have atm is a three-in-one.) First, mentioning that the Grove was glowing, Talia felt something happen, then Elspeth, Rolan (looking very tired), and a strange Companion showed up. "Talia knew every Companion in residence, having spent nearly as much time with them as Keren, and having helped to midwife many of the foals. That name didn't belong to any of them. And that could only mean one thing; Gwena, like Rolan -- and unlike any other Companion currently alive -- was Grove-born. But why? For centures only Monarch's Own Companions had appeared in the Grove like Companions of old. Talia started to say something -- and abruptly felt Rolan's presence overwhelming her mind, tinged with a feeling of gentle regret." I think this shows that we knew Gwena was Grove-Born. The Companions were playing around with people's minds again and making them think they knew Gwena. Wyvern http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:04:42 -0500 From: Michele and Tony To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Criticism Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970312230442.0069f930-+AT+-soonet.ca> Heyla all! >Re "The Last Straw"and Misty's writing, Chris Huning wrote: >>we should be suporting _HER_ not arguing among ourselves >>about whether or not she should have writen the last straw or >>complaining about the decline of her writing "in our opinion." I am supporting Misty, by buying her books. Generally I like her books, but not always. When any of us discuss Misty's books we are discussing our opinion of them, and if in my opinion, one of her books isn't up to her usual standard, why shouldn't I say so? I like to consider myself to be more than a 'yes-person', as in: yes, every word Mercedes Lackey writes is a priceless jewel. Let's face it no one is perfect. You have the right to disagree with my opinion...isn't that what free speech is all about? Regards, Michele ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:36:44 -0600 From: georg-+AT+-swbell.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Saddest scenes Message-ID: <3327845C.6D56-+AT+-swbell.net> sbanker wrote: > > >New question: For those of you who cried somewhere in LHM, what scene > >was the saddest to you? Hmmm...let me redo that. Saddest in any of the > >books? For me it was after 'Lendel died, right before Van tried to > > In LHM, for me it was when Van relived Savil's death. She was one of his > few friends, and to lose her on top of the slow death of Randale, the > murders of the other Herald Mages hurt him more. The fact he felt > that he could have saved her, made the blow worse. > > In all the books, the saddest point was when Ancar is torturing Talia. The was > crying and willing to throw the book against the wall (something I almost never > contemplate.) The most poignant moment was when she gave the arrows to the > gypsy boy, saying Kris was dead and she was not to be rescued. > > Samantha Banker > sbanker-+AT+-stny.lrun.com That was the saddest!!! When she was tortured I couldn't believe it.... I also think the Vanyel rape scene was very hard to read.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 20:49:05 From: "Pamela Lunsford" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" Subject: Re: Musings on Vanyel Message-ID: <199703130446.UAA13329-+AT+-nic.greycat.com> On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 02:35:45 GMT, Bethany Weber wrote: >Vanyel is moody, yes. Maybe as an >admittedly moody person myself, I find that a less grevious character >fault than some. I tend to lapse into (usually brief) bouts of self-pity >for no apparent reason, then come out of them again without >warning. Vanyel is a lot more moody than I am, but then, look at the Hmm. I am not a moody person at all. Just the opposite. My personality is the "Ok, it happened, deal with it and move on." type. I don't brood much. ML did a great job of putting the reader into Van's head. But it's not a place that I'm comfortable in, which is probably why I disliked it so much. I'm going to pick up another copy this weekend, and try it again. Maybe knowing why it annoyed me will keep me from getting sucked into the emotional whirlwind and let me concentrate on the story. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ninety-eight percent of the adults in this country are decent hard-working, honest Americans. It's the other lousy two percent that get all the publicity. But then we elected them - Lily Tomlin Pamela -- pam-+AT+-greycat.com http://www.calweb.com/~plunsfrd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:20:25 -0600 (CST) From: kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? | Fan vs. Friend | Dragon*Con Message-ID: <199703131020.EAA21427-+AT+-dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> Heather Wegemer wrote: >On the contrary, criticism is the _only_ thing relevant on this list. I realized that this particular word choice was an error shortly after sending this message. I was refering to excesive complaining without getting at what was disliked by the complainer. I have seen little in the way of truley critical reveiws of the books in question. My intent was to say that simple complaining has little purpose if continued to long. There have been other critical discusions on the list, so I know the people here are capable. Expressing disapointment is more than reasonable but at some point if you don't consider "specific aspects" you are not engaging in critical discusion. Cheerleading is not an intrest of mine seeing, rational discusions is. >But neither >you nor Melvin Master of Bluntness, not any other individual on this >list has ANY right to inform me or anybody else that reasoned >criticism is out of place I have never once stated that reasoned critisism is out of place. In fact that is exactly what I would like to see. Appearently Heather saw my statement as am attack. For giving her that impression I am sorry. Nor was my intention to imply that I had some right to command. I was merely stating an opinion just as many other people on this list do. > . . . especially since the pom-pom group >seems to be significantly newer than those who propose a more >thinking approach to the literature. As for some people having been on the list longer...who cares? We all have an equal right to express opinions. >My goal is to defend the right to literary criticism on a mailing list >devoted to this author and her works.# My goal is to encourage people to actually partake of literary critisism instead of complaining. >>Gessi wrote: >> I don't see any pettiness in implying that someone is a flake for >> thinking they're a friend of a fave author. Maybe not petty but perhaps overly antagonistic, or even needlessly so. Name calling, I would hope, is unnecessary. As for a fan considering his/herself a friend of an author, my interpretation was that the person making the comment was acting as a friend towards Misty. I could be mistaken of course. With this interpretation the term flakey seems a bit harsh. Given the broad variation in personal definitions for words it seems a better course to not jump all over people for statements that one finds disagreeable. A smidge more politeness never hurt. Dictionary definitions are not the end all, be all of comunication. If you are incapable of understanding that the use of a word or group of words may be at variance with your own definition or the dictionary's, you are missing out on a great deal of every-day comunication, and are likely to continue getting upset about things needlessly. Chris Huning ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:27:41 -0600 (CST) From: kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism Message-ID: <199703131027.EAA14687-+AT+-dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> Michele wrote: >I am supporting Misty, by buying her books. Generally I like >her books, but not always. When any of us discuss Misty's books >we are discussing our opinion of them, and if in my opinion, one >of her books isn't up to her usual standard, why shouldn't I say >so? I like to consider myself to be more than a 'yes-person', >as in: yes, every word Mercedes Lackey writes is a priceless >jewel. Let's face it no one is perfect. Sadly I expressed myself poorly. Since then I hope that I have better stated the point I was trying to get across. I do agree you and find it a pleasure to respond to such a pleasant message. Chris Huning ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:27:25 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ranting and Nutcases/Van & Death/Gwena Message-ID: <199703131426.AA259643186-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> >I noticed that many people think the scene between Vanyel and the >Shadow-lover was the saddest. You know, I always think of that scene fondly, >and I think it's a bout as joyus as you can get in those books. I mean, here >Van has a place to vent and release all his fears and be comforted! It is >sad, but happily so, if anyone understands what I mean? It's a very bittersweet scene. I mean, Van finally can rest, get away from all of the stares as people realize he's the Shadowstalker and Demonsbane, he doesn't have to be alone anymore, and he can finally be held by someone (so what if he's a spirit) who can't be used to hurt those he cares about. For once, he can just cry himself out let down his shields. Yet, as I read, I knew he'd never stay while there was still work to done. For me, the saddest scene was Van's death at the point when Yfandes says she had always known what their partnership would come down to. At that point, it really sunk in that this was the end (in a way). TTFN! Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:25:42 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? | Fan vs. Friend | Dragon*Con Message-ID: Alast Reasoned critisim is not uncalled for, but continious harping on a lack of chartcterization in her more recent books is occasionally known as beating a dead horse. Yes I actually agree that her last few books lacked the heavy charcterization most of us enjoyed in the majority of her books but the change of focus was not really out of line "Storm Breaking" has charcterzation but also explores issues and maintains a strong story line. Most author's have never used such heavy chartcterzation as misty usually does. On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Ken Wilson wrote: > Heather Wegemer wrote: > >On the contrary, criticism is the _only_ thing relevant on this list. > > > I realized that this particular word choice was an error shortly after > sending this message. I was refering to excesive complaining without > getting at what was disliked by the complainer. I have seen little in > the way of truley critical reveiws of the books in question. My intent > was to say that simple complaining has little purpose if continued to > long. There have been other critical discusions on the list, so I know > the people here are capable. Expressing disapointment is more than > reasonable but at some point if you don't consider "specific aspects" > you are not engaging in critical discusion. Cheerleading is not an > intrest of mine seeing, rational discusions is. > > > >But neither > >you nor Melvin Master of Bluntness, not any other individual on this > >list has ANY right to inform me or anybody else that reasoned > >criticism is out of place > > I have never once stated that reasoned critisism is out of place. In > fact that is exactly what I would like to see. Appearently Heather saw > my statement as am attack. For giving her that impression I am sorry. > Nor was my intention to imply that I had some right to command. I was > merely stating an opinion just as many other people on this list do. > > > > . . . especially since the pom-pom group > >seems to be significantly newer than those who propose a more > >thinking approach to the literature. > > As for some people having been on the list longer...who cares? We all > have an equal right to express opinions. > > > >My goal is to defend the right to literary criticism on a mailing list > >devoted to this author and her works.# > > My goal is to encourage people to actually partake of literary > critisism instead of complaining. > > > >>Gessi wrote: > >> I don't see any pettiness in implying that someone is a flake for > >> thinking they're a friend of a fave author. > > Maybe not petty but perhaps overly antagonistic, or even needlessly so. > Name calling, I would hope, is unnecessary. > > As for a fan considering his/herself a friend of an author, my > interpretation was that the person making the comment was acting as a > friend towards Misty. I could be mistaken of course. With this > interpretation the term flakey seems a bit harsh. Given the broad > variation in personal definitions for words it seems a better course to > not jump all over people for statements that one finds disagreeable. A > smidge more politeness never hurt. > > Dictionary definitions are not the end all, be all of comunication. If > you are incapable of understanding that the use of a word or group of > words may be at variance with your own definition or the dictionary's, > you are missing out on a great deal of every-day comunication, and are > likely to continue getting upset about things needlessly. > > > Chris Huning > ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1132 **********************************