MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1133 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Braid of many subjects by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 2) Re: Criticism irrelevant? by hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu 3) Re: Criticism irrelevant? by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 4) Re: Criticism irrelevant? by hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu 5) surnames/anything else I think of! by Ailsa Reid 6) surnames/Gwena/characterization vs. history by "John and Kara Pekar" 7) Re: Criticism irrelevant? by kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) 8) Grove-borns, etc. (Monster post here!) by Jennifer Wrenn 9) Grove-born/language/criticism by "Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda" 10) SadStuff and Culture Shock by Jennifer Dorn 11) Gwena/Sad Stuff/De-Lurking by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 12) veborns, Elspeth's Mage potential, Language Usage, Culture Shock, & History by John Hagen 13) Re: surnames/Gwena/characterization vs. history by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:32:38 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid of many subjects Message-ID: Good Grief you should heard me when I'm ticked off!! Melvin master of inciting response > As far as The Last Straw goes. Hmmmm. . . okay. Misty has two forums > for her work. Fiction, which we all enjoy more or less depending on the > quality of her writing at the particular time, and an open essay to her > fans which maybe should not have been published on the Internet. > Personally having been through some of what she has been through, I > would have reacted pretty much the same way. Fear makes me angry at the > least, enraged at the most. Noone here has lived Misty's life. Until > you have walked a mile in her moccassins, don't judge her. The essay > was not politically correct, may have been rude to the vast majority of > her fans but we here in the US have the right and obligation to free > speech. That's all I have to say. Thank you. > > Lady Sara, LIG and Dryad Extraordinaire > Hopeful Diety of All Marsupials, Past, Present and Future > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? Message-ID: <199703131615.LAA02918-+AT+-raven.med.unc.edu> > Alast Reasoned critisim is not uncalled for, but continious harping on a > lack of chartcterization in her more recent books is occasionally known as > beating a dead horse. Yes I actually agree that her last few books lacked > the heavy charcterization most of us enjoyed in the majority of her books > but the change of focus was not really out of line "Storm Breaking" > has charcterzation but also explores issues and maintains a strong story > line. Most author's have never used such heavy chartcterzation as misty > usually does. I know what you mean. (This is my first post after being unsubbed for about a year. I've been back for about a week.) My impression in the later books has almost been that there are too many characters - so many of the previously central characters get pushed back which for me is sort of frustrating 'cause I liked them and then more characters are added. I've gotten this impression from both the Storm and the Gryphon trilogies although with the former it's almost more of a "problem" since characters from both Arrows and Kero's book get melded together. And I'll hold comment on the other current topics. ;-) Helen hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:27:39 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? Message-ID: The scary part is that Storm Breaking combines the casts of "by th sword" LHM,HOV,and mage winds. Don't forget she even put Tarma in there Although that was most likely just to settle whiether she was dead or not. On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu wrote: > > I know what you mean. (This is my first post after being unsubbed for about a > year. I've been back for about a week.) My impression in the later books has > almost been that there are too many characters - so many of the previously > central characters get pushed back which for me is sort of frustrating 'cause I > liked them and then more characters are added. I've gotten this impression from > both the Storm and the Gryphon trilogies although with the former it's almost > more of a "problem" since characters from both Arrows and Kero's book get melded > together. > > And I'll hold comment on the other current topics. ;-) > > Helen > hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:02:17 -0800 (PST) From: hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? Message-ID: <199703131702.MAA08245-+AT+-raven.med.unc.edu> > From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD > Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:00:44 GMT > Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? > To: hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu > Reply-To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk > > The scary part is that Storm Breaking combines the casts of > "by th sword" LHM,HOV,and mage winds. Don't forget she even put Tarma in > there Although that was most likely just to settle whiether she was dead > or not. *giggles* I haven't even read Breaking yet (I can only afford the paperbacks) - i don't mind the spoilers since it's been awhile. Although, with the way the series was heading, I'm not *too* surprised. :D Helen hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu > On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu wrote: > > > I know what you mean. (This is my first post after being unsubbed for > about a > > year. I've been back for about a week.) My impression in the later books > has > > almost been that there are too many characters - so many of the previously > > central characters get pushed back which for me is sort of frustrating > 'cause I > > liked them and then more characters are added. I've gotten this impression > from > > both the Storm and the Gryphon trilogies although with the former it's > almost > > more of a "problem" since characters from both Arrows and Kero's book get > melded > > together. > > > > And I'll hold comment on the other current topics. ;-) > > > > Helen > > hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu > > > > > (null) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:28:01 GMT From: Ailsa Reid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: surnames/anything else I think of! Message-ID: <199703131728.RAA24078-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk> Since the number of topics has gone down a bit... Do you reckon they have surnames like we do in Valdemar (or the rest of Velgarth)? I mean for more than just the nobility? Just a random thought. Whoever it was suggested the Athens/Sparta parallel, I like the idea. However I almost hope it isn't so, considering that after Marathon and Salamis, the next major happenings included Sparta conquering the rest of the Hellenic world including Athens. Also I do tend to picture Velgarth more as late Middle Ages/early Rennaissance, it just "feels" that way to me. Can anyone tell me if its worth getting the books with Korendil & co in? If I do want them I'm either going to have to order them or find the time to go to London and wander round bookshops (bad for my bank account that), so opinions are welcomed :> It's almost Friday :> :> :) Ailsa the alien, the eternally broke, pesterer of personnel departments, beloved of Lemming the Fluffy ____________________________________________________________________________ | Ailsa Reid areid-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk | | | | A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... | | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:48:54 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: surnames/Gwena/characterization vs. history Message-ID: <199703132153.QAA09222-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> First of all, double-chava sheep with Breyers' vanilla ice cream on top to everyone who got my last post twice. I was having trouble with the ISP, which is now, hopefully, solved. ++++++++++++++++++++Surnames+++++++++++++++ On Mar. 13, Ailsa wrote: >Do you reckon they have surnames like we do in Valdemar (or the rest of >Velgarth)? Well...Yes and no. In Valdemar, there do not appear to be surnames for the majority of the common folk. For example, neither Gaytha nor Mero appear to have last names. Nor do most of the Heralds, at least in the Arrows books. Vanyel and his family have a last or family name, as does the rather nasty Evan Leshara, but they are all members of the nobility in one degree or another. There is at least one reference to a commoner with a last name in the Arrows books: When the Provost-Marshall comes to tell Dean Elcarth about Skif's purse-stealing joke during the altercation between the Blues and the Bardic students, he makes reference to "Jon Hapkin's Virgin and Stars Tavern." So it seems likely that in Valdemar, a commoner can take or be given some sort of identifying name, which is used to distinguish him or her from others who bear the same first name. (Which is, of course, how most family names came into existence in the first place.) Outside of Valdemar, nomenclature seems to vary according to culture. The Tayledras take use-names; if they have birth-names, they don't ever talk about them or use them. However, all members of a clan are identified as being of that clan: k'Treva, k'Vala, etc. The Shin'a'in follow a similar custom (no surprise, since they were originally one people): Tarma shena Tal'esedrin, and so forth. (Incidentally, there don't seem to *be* nobility, in the sense that we understand the term, among either the Tayledras or the Shin'a'in.) Mournedealth follows the same custom as Valdemar: the nobility have family names, such as Kethryveris of House Pheregul; commoners appear to take an identifying name, like Justin Twoblades or Ikan Dryvale. (Yes, I know Ikan is really nobility, but his use of a "commoner" identifier is deliberate.) I don't recall much about the use of last names in Karse; anyone else? BTW, the nomenclature supports the "medieval" parallel for Velgarth, or at least Valdemar, Hardorn, Rethwellan, and similar countries. Probably Karse as well. We don't have much information on commoners within the Empire, but the governtmental/bureaucratic structure there seems more like the Roman Empire than anything medieval. On the other hand, the work the Valdemaran artificers are doing in the Mage Storm books seems squarely 18th and 19th century, so the parallel doesn't hold up. ++++++++++++++++++Gwena++++++++++++++++++ Actually, something has always puzzled me about Gwena. Why did Elspeth's Companion have to be Grove-born? It's made clear in the Winds books that just being Grove-born does not automatically grant Gwena perfection. She makes mistakes in dealing with Elspeth, and as Vanyel tells Elspeth, "Your Gwena, for all that she is Grove-born, is just as fallible as any other mortal." He goes on, "...as Companions go -- when compared to, say, Sayvil -- she is very, very young...She makes all the kinds of mistakes any young thing makes, but because she is Grove-born, she thinks she will always make the right decision...She forgets that she has *no* real, human experience to base her decisions on. It is like dictating music when you yourself have never learned to play an instrument." [WoFury, US hardcover ed., ch. 5, p. 92-93.] That being the case, where was the advantage in making Gwena Grove-born? True, she can function as a mage or at least a channel, on some levels...but I don't recall anything precluding a reincarnated Herald-Mage from doing the same. About the only real advantage I can see is that she can communicate with Rolan over extremely long distances. But surely the god(s) or goddess(es) who created and oversee/direct the Companions could have arranged for that with any Companion as easily as they could create a new Grove-born Companion? It seems to me that the advantages of being Grove-born are in this case far outweighed by the disadvantages of youth and inexperience. Wouldn't Elspeth have been better off with a prior Herald-Mage? Someone like Sayvil, or Lissandra (senior Guardian of the Web during MPrice; not Adept but "not far from it". [MPrice, ch. 4, p. 628 SFBC edition of LHM.]) BTW, I'm asking *within* the context of the stories, rather than "why did ML decide to make Elspeth's Companion Grove-born?" ++++++++++++++++characterization etc.+++++++++++ I have a theory as to why the characterization in some of ML's more recent books is told from the outside more than it is shown from the inside, and why the focus seems to be so much broader in recent books. The shift from books which focus on one or perhaps two main characters, to books which use a more historical approach, is one we've seen in some other well-loved authors. (Anne McCaffrey leaps immediately to mind.) Someone suggested that ML has already told the individual stories she really wanted to tell --probably V&H, Arrows trilogy, and LHM. I agree. But I don't think ML is now writing "only" in order to pay the mortgage. I think she has become interested in the broader history of the world she has created. In her eagerness to tell those stories, the characterization sometimes receives less attention. It's also harder to focus on one person's experiences when you are telling a story which has such wide-ranging effects as the two recent trilogies, or where the action takes place in several different locations. That said, my disappointment over some of the characterization in recent books still stands. I really enjoy "people" stories. I like history, too, and ML is writing very entertaining history these days; so I will keep reading her. But I miss the people I've gotten to know, and I miss getting to know and love new characters with the same depth and multidimensionality I cherished in those early characters. Well, the real world calls -- I have a toddler waking from a nap. Wind to thy wings, listsibs! Kara Disciple of TextEvd "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:55:40 -0600 (CST) From: kkwilson-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Ken Wilson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Criticism irrelevant? Message-ID: <199703132155.PAA22280-+AT+-dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> Helen wrote: >I know what you mean. (This is my first post after being unsubbed for >about a year. I've been back for about a week.) My impression in the >later books has almost been that there are too many characters - so >many of the previously central characters get pushed back which for me >is sort of frustrating 'cause I liked them and then more characters >are added. I've gotten this impression from both the Storm and the >Gryphon trilogies although with the former it's almost >more of a "problem" since characters from both Arrows and Kero's book >get melded together. You,ve hit it on the head i think. Too many characters. In my opinion it goes back to the WINDS books. In WC we looked through the eyes of Elspeth, Darkwind, Skif, Nyara, and Falconsbane.. and those were just the major characters. Compared to the Arrows books where two or three characters were the most. Also we don't get a sense the unknown in intercharacter relationships. We see into everybodies head rather than experiencing one characters doubts concernig the others. Chris Huning ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:50:52 -0500 From: Jennifer Wrenn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Grove-borns, etc. (Monster post here!) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970313225052.00670494-+AT+-atlonline.com> Gwena: First off, we KNOW that Gwena is a Grove-born. Not only does Talia mention that (someone else pointed that one out), but our Revered (sp?) Vanyel ALSO says so. As to why Gwena is so stupid, like Vanyel said, she's very young. We really don't know HOW old Rolan is, right? I mean, the timeline of the books goes from Roald in Oathbreakers to Talia, which is what, 100 years? Rolan could've been from anytime in there, because the Monarch's Own Companion is always Grove-born, and if the MO dies, the Companion does NOT follow his Chosen into death (at least, not that we've had proof of in the books). Remember, everyone knew that when Jisa was Chosen, it would be by Tavir (sp?)and could only happen when her mother died. Anyways, after that nice ramble, my point is that Rolan is most likely much older that Gwena and has experience she greatly lacks. As to why she was required for Elspeth, I don't really know... Except maybe to 'Guide' Elspeth to her supposed destiny. Maybe the gods didn't feel like wasting the time to watch over her themselves, so they sent a special messenger to take care of her. Who knows the ways of the gods, and Gwena would seem to be a heavenly creature, even moreso than the rest of the reborn-Herald Companions. History of Valdemar: I get the feeling that Valdemar is a kind of medieval America. This comes mostly from the 'there is no one true way' idea, I guess. I know America has its share of prejudice, etc, but it seems the closest similarity I can find. However, I think Valdemar is on the verge of a 'Renaissance' or something like that. What with the importance of the artificers in stopping the mage storms, they may gain prestige and whatnot that could spill over into increased experimentation (though probly not too much due to the accident with the boiler). Anyways, back to the America thing, I remember reading somewhere, maybe it was Karal who said/thought it, that the Valdemarans were like a bunch of mongrel pups (i.e. not of a 'type' like the Karsites, Shin'a'in, etc.), which implies very diverse breeding, something else that America shows. Saddest Scene: I think the saddest scene that I remember from all the books was when Savil was killed. Y'know, when Vanyel's fabled 'calm' broke... I liked Savil from the very beginning, even when she was skeptical about Van. I was right with him when he hunted that beast down. I was SO mad that she was killed like that. She deserved a lot better. 'Course, I was also angry at Van for not believing her and letting Stef make him disregard his intuition (AND 'Fandes') that the deaths weren't accidental. On THAT note, I will say that Van and Talia, and even Keth and Tarma, were a LOT more real to me than the later Heralds. Even Kero was very real to me (BTS is my favorite book in the Velgarth world, in fact), but after that, there were just too many people to get to know any of them very well. I agree with whoever said that Misty's trying to make more history and less character story (sorry, itchy delete-finger ). However, *I* have really enjoyed the history, 'cept for SG, where she goes back to an attempt at character story, but was little more than that. I'm just now rereading Storm Breaking, but I remember vaguely liking it well enough (though, oddly, for the longest time I could not remember if I had even read it at all! Which does kinda say something about the quality of the book...) Ultimately, the books are for entertainment, for all that we fans might wish otherwise. And I personally have been entertained (again, with the exception of Silver Gryphon, which I refuse to buy) by most everything she's written. Anyways, I guess I've rambled and bored you with my opinions long enough. Feel free to email me personally if you want, I LOVE getting mail! Zhai'helleva to you all, listsibs. NightSong jwrenn-+AT+-atlonline.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:23:48 From: "Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Grove-born/language/criticism Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19970314112348.2e27c3c4-+AT+-bilbo.cc.flinders.edu.au> Heyla, listsibs Grove born: As NightSong stated: my point is that Rolan is most likely much older that Gwena and has experience she greatly lacks. An important point - really Gwena was in constant contact with Rolan (something to do with being both GroveBorn - I suspect!) and it was Rolan who was guiding her to push Elspeth into her GREAT DESTINY as the first new Herald-Mage. The questions I would like to raise are - would Elspeth have been chosen if she had continued to be the Brat? Yes. Rolan chose Talia because he could see that the Brat needed taming and, indeed, was that also part of THE GREAT PLAN. How soon were the Companions aware that Elspeth had great Mage potential? And why wasn't a "normal" Companion good enough - surely they could have used a Companion with lots of previous incarnations - ie Savil. Afterall the previous Herald-Mages didn't have Grove-born Companions. An interesting conundrum Language: A note on language and dictionaries - whilst I agree with the concept that we are NOT friends of Misty in the real sense of it being a reciprocal relationship, however, language is ever evolving and dynamic - what was written in even the latest dictionaries does not really reflect on the language spoken at this very minute. Criticism: Criticism should always be constructive and empowering & this is something I try to be when I mark my students' workand when I read the myriad of texts required for my job and my PhD. I use my fantasy reading as an outlet from the humdrum of academe and also for pure enjoyment and I don't want to be as critical of that reading. I know what I like but often choose not to explore why - except that gay characters and/or spiritual/mystical issues always intrigue me. I am loyal to many an author - especially Misty and Anne McCaffrey etc but so far neither of them have written a book I regret buying (including the Silver Gryphon). I think that finding the line between writing for oneself and one for "one's" public would be very difficult and I am glad that I do not have to find it. As we in the Southern Hemisphere move into Autumn/Fall, I sigh a huge sigh of relief. Wind to thy wings, list sibs Warm regards, Aili Herald healer, dragon friend and Renunciate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:01:10 -0600 From: Jennifer Dorn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: SadStuff and Culture Shock Message-ID: <199703140204.UAA72774-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> Sheesh. :) I'm gone for two days and I'm already so behind! You all have been active.... (This is a Good Thing (tm)). I'm going to respond to the "saddest scene in Velgarth" theme now. In MPawn, the saddest scene is when Vanyel tries to kill himself. Actually in that book, I cry more when Yfandes impresses him than I do when Tylendel dies. I think this is because it is a poignant and beautiful thing in the midst of the sadness and grief. In MPromise, it would be Van's reliving of the Sovaan night, when he's trying to build illusions and they keep turning into Tylendel. In MPrice, the saddest scene is when Stef tries to take his life. I was too furious when Savil died... I felt the pain, but was much more concerned with wanting revenge. I don't know who mentioned it, but I can't read the Vanyel rape scene either. It hurts too much. I can't read the Talia torture scenes in AFall either for much the same reason. I read them once, I know what happened, and that's enough. The scene that makes me cry the most in ML's books is still when Dirk sees the arrows Talia sent out. It was hard watching Talia give up hope, but when Dirk saw that and realized everything he had lost, I cried because I was grieving for Talia too. His grief made mine greater. ************************************* I LIKE THE STORMS BOOKS. there. I said it. I know that the general complaint about characterization is valid, shards, I've said it a time or two myself. I enjoyed them a lot despite this. I like Karal. There are more reasons than that though... Misty has been creating a world, down to the very last detail. The thing that I have always felt was fascinating about her work was that each individual culture she created was unique and complete. We can discuss what kind of music Karsites would listen to because she gave us enough of the culture for us to at least conjecture. The Tayledras rock. ( I know I probably should have come up with something more professional than that to say, but it's the best I can come up with right now.) I liked WGryphon because I thought the Haileigh (sp?) culture was cool. This being said, I think she has taken each series as a way to show a different culture. I'd say it ends up being like this: Mage Wars: Kaled'a'in Vows & Honor: Shin'a'in, Rethwellan, southern Velgarth, merc society LHM: Tayledras and Valdemar, Baires, Linneas Mage Winds: Tayledras, Hardorn Arrows bks: Valdemar BTS: Rethwellan, Merc society, Valdemar Mage Storms: Karse, Eastern Empire, + everything else What I think is so cool about the Storms books is that you can see how all these cultures interact. She developed a lot of the characters before in previous books. I think this is why she felt free to skimp a little on characterization and focus on the interaction of cultures. If you noticed, the two characters that got developed the most (even if we don't have the feelings for them we had for Van or Talia), are characters from cultures we haven't been exposed to much, ie Karal (Karse) and Tremane (Eastern Empire). This being said, I am also a political science major and I tend to think this stuff is cool. Am I the only one who loved that aspect of it? Just my thoughts... ********************************************************************* One last thing, and somebody'll probably be mad at me, but things on the list seem to have gotten kind of heated and semi-mean lately. I just wish people could disagree without calling each other names. I love to hear people disagree; it makes you think more about why you believe what you do. I just don't feel like paying for on-line time to hear antagonism. Please, play nice? I grant you all the sheep (and cows-thanks to Becca) of your choice that you will all not get angry and smile and agree to disagree. =) Let's not make it personal, 'kay? *********************************************************************** [FLUFF ALERT*FLUFF ALERT*FLUFF ALERT*FLUFF ALERT*] BTW, to all the McCaffrey fans- all the Brekke stuff made me cry too. I love those books. _DragonsEye_ is *NOT* a disappointment. I haven't had a good sci fi fantasy book in a little while, and Pern is always good. But then, I like politics . (I think we've been through that...) Zhai'helleva, Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:11:15 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Gwena/Sad Stuff/De-Lurking Message-ID: <970313220955_447972016-+AT+-emout19.mail.aol.com> The Vertual Pigons of AOHell Braved the Flames to Bring This Message from Kara: > Why did Elspeth's > Companion have to be Grove-born? I Just wanted to say that my personaly opinion on this is that the Companions thought mostly of the grand Desteny of Elispeth had to take precidence. I think they wanted some one 'better' in that position. Companions can make mistakes, just as any of us can. If you remeber, all the companions defured to the Grove Born and seemed to think they were better or to be more respected. Maybe they thought that one who had been human befor would screw up. My only question is, why do the companions always make Haralds forget stuff and play mind tricks on them? Like at the end of MPrice and Gwena made Elispeth forget she was grove born. Sad Stuff I didn't find the saddestest thing in any of the stories, rather it was in the Tape HH&H. THe song Haralds' Lament. That last part, "How bleak the future now has grown since I must face it all alone./ My raod is weary, dark and steep-and it is for myself I weep" I always cry at when i hear it an I am hard put to keep myself when i sing it. De-lurking I alrady did this but i did not say any thing of me and well i figured i might as well say heyla. I am a 16 year old High School student who canna spell. I do write alot though and i read way to much. i like Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCaffry, and pritty much any one else who has a reasonable facimily to a good writing style. I am a girl, But most people call me Flaime, Medicin Hat Stallion or Stallion. I prefure Stallion. I love Folk Filk and MLackey type Music (that is her lyrics, not her voice, it's okay but she does not know her range.) Oh and if some one else is ever interjecting some thing here, it's My King-Cheetah, CHeetah Maxis X ::::That's Cheet for short:::: See there he be. Zhai'hellava Wing-Sibs Fire Wurm, But You all can call me Stallion Blessed Be ::::Be OK:::: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:44:32 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: veborns, Elspeth's Mage potential, Language Usage, Culture Shock, & History Message-ID: <33295626.6466-+AT+-snet.net> Re: Gwena - I believe that towards the beginning of the last Winds book that Vanyel lets loose with Gwena's BIG SECRET, that is being Groveborn. The reason for Gwena's being Groveborn according to Vanyel is that none of the regular, run-of-the-mill Companions feel up to "handling" Elspeth and her Mage Gift. (I guess they all had inferiority complexes or something.) Therefore, Rolan enters the Grove and petitions or calls for Gwena to come and be Elspeth's Companion. He also erases the memory from everyone's mind that Gwena wasn't a regular Companion. Re: Groveborns - As I have said before, somewhere in the first Winds book, when Elspeth, Gwena, Skif and Cymry show up at Quentin's White Winds School in Rethwellan, Quentin is really freaked out by the power evidenced to his Mage Sight by the two Companions and also Need, to say nothing of Elspeth. He recognizes both Companions as Guardian Spirits, and Gwena as being the more powerful of the two. He also recognizes Elspeth as an extremely powerful Adept potential mage. He mentions to Skif that Elspeth looks reeeaaaallll good as bait for a Blood Path mage once Elspeth has gone to bed. Maybe that has something to do with why Elspeth got a Groveborn in the first place. Re: Elspeth's Mage potential - Aili said > How soon were the Companions aware that Elspeth had > great Mage potential? And why wasn't a "normal" Companion good enough - > surely they could have used a Companion with lots of previous incarnations > - ie Savil. Afterall the previous Herald-Mages didn't have Grove-born > Companions. An interesting conundrum Not really a conundrum. As I wrote in my previous paragraph, none of the currently available regular Companions felt up to guiding Elspeth down the path of her "Great Destiny" Also, Savil was waiting for Kero to show up. After all, Savil was a Wingsister in her previous incarnation as Vanyel's aunt and would have been most comfortable with a cousin to the Shin'a'in. Re: Language Usage - Aili also said > A note on language and dictionaries - whilst I agree with the concept that > we are NOT friends of Misty in the real sense of it being a reciprocal > relationship, however, language is ever evolving and dynamic - what was > written in even the latest dictionaries does not really reflect on the > language spoken at this very minute. I agree totally. I have called people I have never met friends. Usually they are authors. For instance, Ray Feist comes to mind. He answers all my posts on the REF boards on AOL. Misty is a friend whom I only know through her fiction. If I met her in real life, I would have to get to know her real personality which I believe is shown somewhat in her novels and short stories. Then she would be a friend under the dictionary definition. Re: Culture Shock - Lady Guenevere said > Misty has been creating a world, down to the very last detail. The thing > that I have always felt was fascinating about her work was that each > individual culture she created was unique and complete. We can discuss what > kind of music Karsites would listen to because she gave us enough of the > culture for us to at least conjecture. The Tayledras rock. ( I know I > probably should have come up with something more professional than that to > say, but it's the best I can come up with right now.) I liked WGryphon > because I thought the Haileigh (sp?) culture was cool. > > This being said, I think she has taken each series as a way to show a > different culture. I'd say it ends up being like this: > Mage Wars: Kaled'a'in > Vows & Honor: Shin'a'in, Rethwellan, southern Velgarth, merc society > LHM: Tayledras and Valdemar, Baires, Linneas > Mage Winds: Tayledras, Hardorn > Arrows bks: Valdemar > BTS: Rethwellan, Merc society, Valdemar > Mage Storms: Karse, Eastern Empire, + everything else > > What I think is so cool about the Storms books is that you can see how all > these cultures interact. She developed a lot of the characters before in > previous books. I think this is why she felt free to skimp a little on > characterization and focus on the interaction of cultures. If you noticed, > the two characters that got developed the most (even if we don't have the > feelings for them we had for Van or Talia), are characters from cultures we > haven't been exposed to much, ie Karal (Karse) and Tremane (Eastern Empire). > I agree with this, totally. I also find these cultures to be verry, verry cool and interesting to read. I also find the history of the world to be interesting, both Velgarth and Earth. Lady Sara, LIG & Dryad Extraordinaire Hopeful Diety of All Marsupials, Past, Present, & Future ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:47:14 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: surnames/Gwena/characterization vs. history Message-ID: <199703141446.AA215180775-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> A > >++++++++++++++++++Gwena++++++++++++++++++ > >Actually, something has always puzzled me about Gwena. Why did Elspeth's >Companion have to be Grove-born? It's made clear in the Winds books that >just being Grove-born does not automatically grant Gwena perfection. >That being the case, where was the advantage in making Gwena Grove-born? >True, she can function as a mage or at least a channel, on some >levels...but I don't recall anything precluding a reincarnated Herald-Mage >from doing the same. After wondering the same thing, I somewhat decided that it's because Gwena and Elspeth are a "special pairing." I don't know if that's exclusively because Gwena is a channel or something like that, or if there's more to it. The only reason Kero was chosen by Sayvil was because the two had similar personalities (not a great criterion, mind you). And, Need kind of gave Elspeth more direction and on-the-spot training, and having a Companion that did the same would have been a bit much. Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1133 **********************************