MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1134 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: SadStuff and Culture Shock by hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu 2) Re: Grove-born/TLS by "Brian Sizemore" 3) Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies by "John and Kara Pekar" 4) Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies by Jennifer Dorn 5) Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies -Reply by Stormsinger (Sharon Lundy) 6) Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies by Lydia Hales 7) Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies by jcameron-+AT+-tiac.net 8) A Genteel Rant(?) (was Re: Grove-born/TLS) by Ken Hyde 9) Re: A Genteel Rant(?) (was Re: Grove-born/TLS) by "Brian Sizemore" 10) Re: resolving inconsistencies/a gentee rant by John Hagen 11) Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies by MELVIN NEVERGOLD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) From: hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SadStuff and Culture Shock Message-ID: <199703141627.LAA01901-+AT+-raven.med.unc.edu> > > I LIKE THE STORMS BOOKS. there. I said it. I know that the general complaint > about characterization is valid, shards, I've said it a time or two myself. > I enjoyed them a lot despite this. I like Karal. There are more reasons than > that though... I like them too. Of all the characters, I find Karal almost most real to me. He is probably close to being my favorite character - possibly because he seems very real. He has faults, realizes them, but strives to overcome them rather than letting them overwhelm or rule his life. He has many good points too but he doesn't flaunt them. In many ways, while I identify with aspects of many of the characters - I feel the loneliness like Van does sometimes, I feel the shyness of young Talia, I understand the difficulty in following an "unusual" path like Elspeth has followed, I empathize and identify most with Karal. And I most certainly agree with what follows. Helen hmw-+AT+-med.unc.edu > Misty has been creating a world, down to the very last detail. The thing > that I have always felt was fascinating about her work was that each > individual culture she created was unique and complete. We can discuss what > kind of music Karsites would listen to because she gave us enough of the > culture for us to at least conjecture. The Tayledras rock. ( I know I > probably should have come up with something more professional than that to > say, but it's the best I can come up with right now.) I liked WGryphon > because I thought the Haileigh (sp?) culture was cool. > > This being said, I think she has taken each series as a way to show a > different culture. I'd say it ends up being like this: > Mage Wars: Kaled'a'in > Vows & Honor: Shin'a'in, Rethwellan, southern Velgarth, merc society > LHM: Tayledras and Valdemar, Baires, Linneas > Mage Winds: Tayledras, Hardorn > Arrows bks: Valdemar > BTS: Rethwellan, Merc society, Valdemar > Mage Storms: Karse, Eastern Empire, + everything else > > What I think is so cool about the Storms books is that you can see how all > these cultures interact. She developed a lot of the characters before in > previous books. I think this is why she felt free to skimp a little on > characterization and focus on the interaction of cultures. If you noticed, > the two characters that got developed the most (even if we don't have the > feelings for them we had for Van or Talia), are characters from cultures we > haven't been exposed to much, ie Karal (Karse) and Tremane (Eastern Empire). > > This being said, I am also a political science major and I tend to think > this stuff is cool. Am I the only one who loved that aspect of it? Just my > thoughts... > > ********************************************************************* > One last thing, and somebody'll probably be mad at me, but things on the > list seem to have gotten kind of heated and semi-mean lately. I just wish > people could disagree without calling each other names. I love to hear > people disagree; it makes you think more about why you believe what you do. > I just don't feel like paying for on-line time to hear antagonism. Please, > play nice? I grant you all the sheep (and cows-thanks to Becca) of your > choice that you will all not get angry and smile and agree to disagree. =) > Let's not make it personal, 'kay? > *********************************************************************** > [FLUFF ALERT*FLUFF ALERT*FLUFF ALERT*FLUFF ALERT*] > > BTW, to all the McCaffrey fans- all the Brekke stuff made me cry too. I love > those books. _DragonsEye_ is *NOT* a disappointment. I haven't had a good > sci fi fantasy book in a little while, and Pern is always good. But then, I > like politics . (I think we've been through that...) > > Zhai'helleva, > Lady Guenevere > Knight-errant of the OAM > Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles > Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons > > "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean > your mother"~ anonymous > > jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu > > (null) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:51:17 -0500 From: "Brian Sizemore" To: Subject: Re: Grove-born/TLS Message-ID: <199703142105.QAA26599-+AT+-ais.ais-gwd.com> Aili said: |Afterall the previous Herald-Mages didn't have Grove-born | Companions. An interesting conundrum I may be mistaken because I can't remember where I saw it, but I swear I read somewhere that a Herald-Mage's companion WAS ALWAYS Grove-born. Anyone know what the heck I'm talking about? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TLS: I don't mean to get off an a rant here, but this has gotten a bit ridiculous. To treat an essay as if it were a work of fiction and piddle and quip about tone, especially when the topic is as serious as TLS, well it just seems trite. What needs to be thought of here is the message itself, not the syntax. If I were in her shoes, and thankfully I am not, I'm positive my version of TLS would have melted the processors in your computers. I have read TLS several times and each time it makes me a little angrier. I dare say none on the list have ever been through what she is dealing with. Maybe some parts of it, but not the whole. To be perfectly honest, it seems to me that she was probably holding back. She has a right to be upset. TLS was written to let steam off and to let her fans know what was going on. She didn't have to tell us squat about why she quit writing DT novels. She did. With a large following such as her's, there are always a few "numb-nuts" that are out on the fringe, living in 6'X6' shacks out near the cemetary and screaming conspiracy when their favorite comic strip is canceled. These are the one's TLS's harshness was directed towards. If it made even one of them wake up and smell their own feces, then it was worthwhile. But if you really want to know why she wrote such a "mean little rambling diatribe," why don't you ask HER. And while you're at it, put yourself in her shoes. Really put yourself in her shoes. I think your perspective would be a little different. Chocolate covered sheep to all, well if you have such gentle sensibilities to be offended by what I have said so far, your "chocolate" may smell a little funny. Wind to thy wings. Paradox (Any suggestions on a list-name?) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Against stupidity, the very gods themselves contend in vain. # Have you ever noticed that most of the people who are against abortion are peole you wouldn't want to have sex with in the first place? # The preceding has been my opinion only. It is very possible that I may have offended someone inadvertantly. If you will let me know who you are, next time I will make it a point to do so intentionally. # # # No matter what else you do in life, love another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:20:22 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies Message-ID: <199703142344.SAA22630-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> Paradox said: >I may be mistaken because I can't remember where I saw it, but I swear I >read somewhere that a Herald-Mage's companion WAS ALWAYS Grove-born. >Anyone know what the heck I'm talking about? I think what you read was in AotQ. During Talia's Orientation class, Teren tells the students that the only Companion not (at the time) born at the Collegium is the Companion of the Monarch's Own. "_That_ Comapnaion appears from the Grove just as the originals did...If he is killed -- and many have been -- another appears from the Grove to take his place." [AotQ, ch. 5, p. 82 in SFBC ed. of _Queen's Own_.] I also think it's unlikely that Herald-Mages other than the Monarch's Own (if s/he happened to be a Herald-Mage) had Grove-born Companions, except in King Valdemar's day. After all, even Vanyel, though he was the strongest Herald-Mage ever, had an "ordinary", reincarnated Herald as his Companion. Remember, there is great surprise when Savil and the others found out that Yfandes had Chosen him. Jaysen says to Mardic, "The only full-grown Companion in the Field that hasn't Chosen -- the Companion that hasn't Chosen for over ten years -- and _now_ she's Chosen _Vanyel_?" [MPawn, ch. 9, p. 178 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] Jaysen refers to her as "full-grown", thus implying that she was once a foal. Also, neither Gala, the "original" Grove-born Companions of Valdemar's day, nor the Companions of the Monarch's Own ever stick around for anything approaching ten years without Choosing; they appear to Choose almost immediately upon their "arrival". Ergo, Yfandes is not Grove-born. ('Course, there were also little hints to the same effect in the series and in WoFury.) +++++++++++++++++inconsistencies+++++++++++++ I've been re-reading the Arrows books, and I've noticed a number of inconsistencies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining -- I rather *like* inconsistencies! They give me something to ponder, and since I don't usually notice them the first time through, they provide a sort of "new discovery" upon re-reading. I like to try to resolve them within the context of the stories, rather than relying on "the author made a mistake (though of course, almost any author makes at least a few mistakes somewhere along the line!) With your permission, listsibs, I'd like to take up one relating to the recent topic of Companions, specifically that of the Monarch's Own. Twice in AotQ, reference is made to the Companion of the Monarch's Own Choosing someone who is already a Herald or about to become one. In other words, someone who has already been Chosen. (Textevd: Selenay says to Talia on her arrival in Haven, "...quite often he Chooses someone who is already a Herald or nearly ready to be made one." [ch. 3, p. 48] Teren says to the Orientation class, "...another appears from the Grove to take his place. If the Monarch's Own Herald is still living, that is the Herald he Chooses; if not...he goes out to seek the next in line. It is usally someone already a Herald or about to receive Whites that he Chooses, but that is not always the case." [ch. 5, p. 82; both quotes taken from SFBC omnibus ed. of _Queen's Own_]) The inconsistency is twofold. First, if this is true, what happens to the original Companion of the newly-Chosen Monarch's Own? Does this Herald wind up with two Companions? That might be a bit awkward. There are already enough demands on a MO's time, without adding double the grooming/riding/sharing time needed by one Companion. There is also nothing in the books to support the possiblity of having two. Does the original Companion "back out"? But I get the distinct impression from the books that the Companion-bond can only be dissolved by death (or repudiation, in one single case.) And even if it could be dissolved, given the deep love between Heralds and their Companions would they be *willing* for it to be dissolved? Second, if the above is true, then why did Jisa have to remain unChosen until her mother died? In MPromise, Yfandes tells Vanyel that Jisa will probably be Chosen by the time she's ten, provided it's needful for her to get the training. [MPromise, ch. 2, p. 336 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] But in MPrice, it says, "Jisa hadn't been Chosen because her Companion would be Taver," Shavri's Companion. [MPrice, Ch. 1, p. 582 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] Yet by the two statements in AotQ, there is nothing to prevent Jisa from being Chosen in order to start her training. My own idea is that perhaps the Herald or trainee who is likely to succeed the MO is not actually Chosen by his/her first Companion. Rather, that Companion forms a friendship with the Herald, not unlike the friendship that Karal has with Florian. The Herald him/herself may not even be aware that this is a friendship, rather than the psychic bond which normally joins a Herald and Companion. However, there would be no bond to "break" or "dissolve" once the Companion of the previous MO Chooses the new MO. And there would also be no reason why the friendship could not continue as time permitted, just as getting married does not necessarily mean the end of a friendship between one spouse and someone outside the marriage. (Of course, this doesn't explain why Jisa didn't have a Companion "friend", so that she could begin her Heraldic training.) Anyone else have any other ideas on how to resolve this particular inconsistency? Anyone want to start a thread of "inconsistency resolution"? Any and all comers welcomed -- just be prepared to back up your hypothesis! (Oops, that's the ex-teacher in me coming out. Sheeps.) Zhai' helleva, listsibs! Kara Disciple of Textevd "So many books, so little time" jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:43:38 -0600 From: Jennifer Dorn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies Message-ID: <199703150047.SAA96794-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> Kara said: >The inconsistency is twofold. First, if this is true, what happens to the >original Companion of the newly-Chosen Monarch's Own? Does this Herald >wind up with two Companions? That might be a bit awkward. There are I believe in LHM ( bear with me, I lent my books out) that Vanyel mentions that Jisa would probably be chosen, but that it wouldn't be a bonded "choosing" because she would eventually bond with Taver. I assumed that because the choosing was not bonded, the other Companion would just back out of the picture. >original Companion "back out"? But I get the distinct impression from the >books that the Companion-bond can only be dissolved by death (or In the aforementioned instance, the Herald and Companion would not have bonded, therefore there would not be the sense of loss associated by losing a bond. It would be sort of like having a friend, and then finding someone else who knew your soul. You would still be friends with the other person, but the second person would take more of your time up until the first just faded into the background. >Second, if the above is true, then why did Jisa have to remain unChosen >until her mother died? In MPromise, Yfandes tells Vanyel that Jisa will >probably be Chosen by the time she's ten, provided it's needful for her to >get the training. [MPromise, ch. 2, p. 336 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] >But in MPrice, it says, "Jisa hadn't been Chosen because her Companion >would be Taver," Shavri's Companion. [MPrice, Ch. 1, p. 582 in SFBC >omnibus ed. of LHM] Yet by the two statements in AotQ, there is nothing >to prevent Jisa from being Chosen in order to start her training. > >My own idea is that perhaps the Herald or trainee who is likely to succeed >the MO is not actually Chosen by his/her first Companion. Rather, that oops. Leave it to me to answer a post before I get to the end. I agree with you wholeheartedly Kara. Sheeps to all.... Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 18:44:52 -0700 From: Stormsinger (Sharon Lundy) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies -Reply Message-ID: Kara said: * In MPromise, Yfandes tells Vanyel that Jisa will *probably be Chosen by the time she's ten, provided it's needful for her *to *get the training. [MPromise, ch. 2, p. 336 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] *But in MPrice, it says, "Jisa hadn't been Chosen because her Companion *would be Taver," Shavri's Companion. [MPrice, Ch. 1, p. 582 in SFBC *omnibus ed. of LHM] Yet by the two statements in AotQ, there is *nothing *to prevent Jisa from being Chosen in order to start her training. The way I always read that was that Jisa could have been Chosen, and then the bond would dissolve, or maybe never form all the way, if she needed the training. I just figured she didn't need the training right then, that it could wait. Stormsinger of the way too much free time at work, (who cannot seem to find her books.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:36:52 -0800 (PST) From: Lydia Hales To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > +++++++++++++++++inconsistencies+++++++++++++ > Second, if the above is true, then why did Jisa have to remain unChosen > until her mother died? In MPromise, Yfandes tells Vanyel that Jisa will > probably be Chosen by the time she's ten, provided it's needful for her to > get the training. [MPromise, ch. 2, p. 336 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] > But in MPrice, it says, "Jisa hadn't been Chosen because her Companion > would be Taver," Shavri's Companion. [MPrice, Ch. 1, p. 582 in SFBC > omnibus ed. of LHM] Yet by the two statements in AotQ, there is nothing > to prevent Jisa from being Chosen in order to start her training. >> Your hunch is esentially correct. When Vanyel is talking to SHarvi and Randale about Jisa being Chosen, he reminded them that it would be an "unbonded Choosing." She would bond to Taver when she is Chosen Monarch's Own. (Mpromise p 48) " Remember for the presumptive King's Own, that won't be a bonded Choosing- she won't bond until- she gets the office." Lady Lydia psu07362-+AT+-odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:16:33 -0500 (EST) From: jcameron-+AT+-tiac.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk, jcameron-+AT+-tiac.net Subject: Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies Message-ID: <199703150416.XAA07513-+AT+-mailnfs0.tiac.net> At 02:09 AM 3/15/97 GMT, Sharon Lundy wrote: >Kara said: >* In MPromise, Yfandes tells Vanyel that Jisa will >*probably be Chosen by the time she's ten, provided it's needful for her >*to >*get the training. [MPromise, ch. 2, p. 336 in SFBC omnibus ed. of LHM] >*But in MPrice, it says, "Jisa hadn't been Chosen because her Companion >*would be Taver," Shavri's Companion. [MPrice, Ch. 1, p. 582 in SFBC >*omnibus ed. of LHM] Yet by the two statements in AotQ, there is >*nothing >*to prevent Jisa from being Chosen in order to start her training. I always thought it was because if she was chosen without being King's Own, then if Randi died, she would stand to be heir. There would be too much pressure. If she remained unchosen, it greatly simplified the issue. She couldn't be heir. Anyway. It mentioned that somewhere, about that being something everyone was concerned about. Elizabeth Cameron Three things trust above all else, the horse on which you ride, The beast that guides your sleeping and your sister at your side! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:39:32 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: A Genteel Rant(?) (was Re: Grove-born/TLS) Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Brian Sizemore wrote: > TLS: > I don't mean to get off an a rant here, but this has gotten a bit > ridiculous. To treat an essay as if it were a work of fiction and piddle > and quip about tone, especially when the topic is as serious as TLS, well > it just seems trite. Are you suggesting that an essay should not (or can not) be critically examined for style and appropriateness? What about effectiveness? I don't think that anyone was arguing that Misty is "wrong" and that there is nothing wrong with the sort of people that have been threatening her. But content is just one aspect of any message, whether spoken or written. I think that most of the comments about TLS that have shown up have addressed those points: was it well-written? was it appropriate? and was it effective? If anything, the last question seems to me to be much more important when applied to a persuasive or expository essay than to a piece of narrative fiction. Also, the question of appropriateness seems to be more applicable to non-fiction (what would "inappropriate" fiction be, anyway?) > What needs to be thought of here is the message itself, not the syntax. So far, no-one has even addressed her syntax (which, I agree would be rather ridiculous, unless it were so deviant as to make her message uninterpretable). On the other hand, I really don't need to be told what to think about or what not to think about. If I, or anyone else, choose to think about other aspects of a piece of writing, in addtion to the literal content of the message, that is our choice to make and it is not for anyone else to say that we cannot do so. > I'm positive my version of TLS would have melted the processors in your > computers. How does the fact that someone could write a more extreme version of an essay make the first version less flawed? This is like saying that the Empire State Building is not big, because there are buildings which are bigger. Either message, however, does not strike me as a particularly effective way to "win friends and influence people." In fact, I would wager that Misty has lost more fans than she has gained in this debacle (I doubt if Heather is the only one to decide that TLS is, indeed, the last straw.) > She has a right to be upset. TLS was written to let steam off and to > let her fans know what was going on. Again, I don't think that anyone is debating whether she has good reason to be upset. Obviously, given the situations she describes, she has ample reason to be upset. The question is not even whether she has a "right" to express her upset in a public forum. By most interpretations of US Constitional law, she does (although it may be the case that there are non-Americans on the list who do not live under such a law). However, there is the non-legal question of whether it is appropriate for her to vent her feelings in the way she did in the forum that she chose. My argument would be that if she is simply venting, a public forum is not the appropriate place. That should be something between friends (and I, for example, do *not* consider Misty to be a friend, for all that I enjoy her work as a writer). If, however, she is trying to communicate the facts behind her decision not to continue the DT series to her fans, then the tone was not appropriate. After all, in that case her audience has done nothing but support her (monetarily and with their regard). If it is the case that she is trying to specifically address the "flakes" that have been making her life such a hell, the tone is perfectly understandable (they are the ones who have been attacking and harrassing her and have pretty much given up any claim they might have to her consideration-- although I would still argue that it wouldn't have killed her to take the "high road"). In this latter case, even the (web page) forum is reasonably appropriate. However, common courtesy would dictate that, in this case, she would provide the crucial information (why DT is discontinued) in a less hectoring format to her real fans. > But if you really want to know why she wrote such a "mean little > rambling diatribe," why don't you ask HER. Mostly because she is not available to ask. She goes to some lengths to avoid interacting with her fans. Not that I blame her, particularly, given what she has been through, but it does mean that I have no contact with her as a person. > And while you're at it, put yourself in her shoes. Really put > yourself in her shoes. I think your perspective would be a little > different. Oh, I don't think so. I did put myself in her shoes. And I still came to the decision that I would not do the same thing she did. The closest that I have ever come to ranting in public is on this list. For reasons that I have already mentioned, in previous posts, I do not consider this list to be "public" however. I consider it to be a large conversation of acquaintances and friends (and yes, many of the people on this list are people that I joyfully and gratefully consider to be friends) and, since no-one who is not a participant of the conversation can hear it, the discussions here are not "public" in the same sense that a notice on a web-page is. And even here, I try to keep a reasonable tone and not use too antagonistic a style. Occasionally, under provocation, I fail at this (anyone who is interested in what I sound like when I am antagonistic is invited to trawl the archives for last semester). Anyway, those are my thoughts. For the nonce, I can only say that I am most heartily sorry that I ever heard of TLS, and I wish, from the profoundest depths of my being that Misty had not chosen to publicize it as she did. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:46:10 -0500 From: "Brian Sizemore" To: Subject: Re: A Genteel Rant(?) (was Re: Grove-born/TLS) Message-ID: <199703150759.CAA24556-+AT+-ais.ais-gwd.com> | On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Ken Hyde wrote: | | Are you suggesting that an essay should not (or can not) be critically | examined for style and appropriateness? What about effectiveness? I | don't think that anyone was arguing that Misty is "wrong" and that there | is nothing wrong with the sort of people that have been threatening her. | But content is just one aspect of any message, whether spoken or written. | I think that most of the comments about TLS that have shown up have | addressed those points: was it well-written? was it appropriate? and was | it effective? If anything, the last question seems to me to be much more | important when applied to a persuasive or expository essay than to a piece | of narrative fiction. Also, the question of appropriateness seems to be | more applicable to non-fiction (what would "inappropriate" fiction be, | anyway?) On the other hand, I really don't need to be told what | to think about or what not to think about. If I, or anyone else, choose | to think about other aspects of a piece of writing, in addtion to the | literal content of the message, that is our choice to make and it is not | for anyone else to say that we cannot do so. | Granted, that was not my true intent to imply that. And people say that the bigger things are made up of many little things, the details, but I also think that if you spend too much time looking at the details, you lose sight of the whole, which is usually the message in cases like this (i.e. can't see the forest for the trees). As for appropriateness, it was deemed appropriate by those who published it, ML, and Teri Lee who posted it on Firebird's webpage. The style of the essay should reflect the content and context of the message. In that aspect, it did quite well. She's angry and fed up. The breaking down of the essay I've been reading on the list lately seems to be similar to checking a ransom note for your child for punctuation errors. | | How does the fact that someone could write a more extreme version of an | essay make the first version less flawed? This is like saying that the | Empire State Building is not big, because there are buildings which are | bigger. | Never said that. Just wanted to let you all know that there are some people out here who write how they feel, that is besides ML. What it boils down to is that I've done the exact same thing she has. Not under the same circumstances, but in context the same. I've written essays like that. For the same reason. They have been posted in public. They have been just as angry or maybe even angrier. However, I was around to "defend" my anger and my essay. It was a rare person that complained about style after hearing, yes hearing what I had to say (emotions are much more easily heard than read). Most decided the message was what was really important and the emotion behind it was real and not just a vehicle for attention. | Either message, however, does not strike me as a particularly | effective way to "win friends and influence people." | Hmmmm, somehow, I don't think that was her intent. | | In fact, I would wager that Misty has lost more fans than she has gained in this debacle (I | doubt if Heather is the only one to decide that TLS is, indeed, the last straw.) | That is a travesty IMNSHO. I'll keep my other opinions on that to myself. | | I don't think that anyone is debating whether she has good reason | to be upset. | That's the impression I have gotten, but then again I write like I feel. | Obviously, given the situations she describes, she has ample | reason to be upset. The question is not even whether she has a "right" to | express her upset in a public forum. By most interpretations of US | Constitional law, she does (although it may be the case that there are | non-Americans on the list who do not live under such a law). However, | there is the non-legal question of whether it is appropriate for her to | vent her feelings in the way she did in the forum that she chose. | See above. | | My argument would be that if she is simply venting, a public forum is not | the appropriate place. That should be something between friends (and I, | for example, do *not* consider Misty to be a friend, for all that I enjoy | her work as a writer). | I do wholeheartedly agree with you on that point (the friend point). | If, however, she is trying to communicate the | facts behind her decision not to continue the DT series to her fans, then | the tone was not appropriate. After all, in that case her audience has | done nothing but support her (monetarily and with their regard). If it is | the case that she is trying to specifically address the "flakes" that have | been making her life such a hell, the tone is perfectly understandable | (they are the ones who have been attacking and harrassing her and have | pretty much given up any claim they might have to her consideration-- | although I would still argue that it wouldn't have killed her to take the | "high road"). | Sometimes if you take the high road, people don't get the point. Besides, it seems to me that she was doing both, but more of the latter. | In this latter case, even the (web page) forum is | reasonably appropriate. However, common courtesy would dictate that, in | this case, she would provide the crucial information (why DT is | discontinued) in a less hectoring format to her real fans. | This isn't meant to sound mean, but I figured that it was common sense why she wasn't writing DT novels anymore. If a series sells, she writes it. If it doesn't, it dies. | | Mostly because she is not available to ask. She goes to some lengths to | avoid interacting with her fans. Not that I blame her, particularly, | given what she has been through, but it does mean that I have no contact | with her as a person. | There is an address at the end of TLS specifically for the purpose of writing to her concerning the post. | | I did put myself in her shoes. And I still came to | the decision that I would not do the same thing she did. The closest that | I have ever come to ranting in public is on this list. For reasons that I | have already mentioned, in previous posts, I do not consider this list to | be "public" however. I consider it to be a large conversation of | acquaintances and friends (and yes, many of the people on this list are | people that I joyfully and gratefully consider to be friends) and, since | no-one who is not a participant of the conversation can hear it, the | discussions here are not "public" in the same sense that a notice on a | web-page is. And even here, I try to keep a reasonable tone and not use | too antagonistic a style. Occasionally, under provocation, I fail at this | (anyone who is interested in what I sound like when I am antagonistic is | invited to trawl the archives for last semester). | Just out of curiosity, what would you have done? I think she took the quickest routes to get to the greatest number she could. | | Anyway, those are my thoughts. For the once, I can only say that I am | most heartily sorry that I ever heard of TLS, and I wish, from the | profoundest depths of my being that Misty had not chosen to publicize it | as she did. I'm sorry that events made it so that she felt this was her only/best option. I really didn't mean to offend anyone, but it just seems to me that there is too much picking on the details and not enough on the actual message. I can't wait until this becomes old news. PARADOX ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Against stupidity, the very gods themselves contend in vain. # Have you ever noticed that most of the people who are against abortion are peole you wouldn't want to have sex with in the first place? # The preceding has been my opinion only. It is very possible that I may have offended someone inadvertantly. If you will let me know who you are, next time I will make it a point to do so intentionally. # # # No matter what else you do in life, love another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 08:08:47 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: resolving inconsistencies/a gentee rant Message-ID: <332A9147.3D7-+AT+-snet.net> Kara, Disciple of Textevd said > My own idea is that perhaps the Herald or trainee who is likely to succeed > the MO is not actually Chosen by his/her first Companion. Rather, that > Companion forms a friendship with the Herald, not unlike the friendship > that Karal has with Florian. The Herald him/herself may not even be aware > that this is a friendship, rather than the psychic bond which normally > joins a Herald and Companion. However, there would be no bond to "break" > or "dissolve" once the Companion of the previous MO Chooses the new MO. > And there would also be no reason why the friendship could not continue as > time permitted, just as getting married does not necessarily mean the end > of a friendship between one spouse and someone outside the marriage. (Of > course, this doesn't explain why Jisa didn't have a Companion "friend", so > that she could begin her Heraldic training.) I have stated before that the reason Jisa didn't get a Companion until Shavri died is that Taver was bonded to Shavri. Shavri had openned a Channel of Healing completely, thereby dooming herself to a very quick death after Randale's. Jisa knew what her parents had done, esp. her mom and was grieving even before her mother's death. And, btw, she had started her Heraldic training on the sly with Van and the Healers, plus other members of the Heraldic Circle. Cennydd said> My argument would be that if she is simply venting, a public forum is not > the appropriate place. That should be something between friends (and I, > for example, do *not* consider Misty to be a friend, for all that I enjoy > her work as a writer). If, however, she is trying to communicate the > facts behind her decision not to continue the DT series to her fans, then > the tone was not appropriate. After all, in that case her audience has > done nothing but support her (monetarily and with their regard). If it is > the case that she is trying to specifically address the "flakes" that have > been making her life such a hell, the tone is perfectly understandable > (they are the ones who have been attacking and harrassing her and have > pretty much given up any claim they might have to her consideration-- > although I would still argue that it wouldn't have killed her to take the > "high road"). In this latter case, even the (web page) forum is > reasonably appropriate. However, common courtesy would dictate that, in > this case, she would provide the crucial information (why DT is > discontinued) in a less hectoring format to her real fans. I'm sorry, Cennydd, but I must disagree with you. The web page is a public forum and was the most appropriate place for Misty to publish her essay. As to the tone and content, you have never been on the receiving end of any of my flames. I only flame in private, and so far haven't flamed anyone on this list. I tend to flame people either in person or through the snail mail. And I get truly viscious. Just ask my husband or son how nasty I can be. Or my little sister who is a b*&(h beyond belief. Now, can we put The Last Straw behind us, please? Lady Sara, LIG and Dryad Extraordinaire Hopeful Diety of All Marsupials, Past, Present, and Future ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:20:48 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Grove-born/resolving inconsistencies Message-ID: on the subject of what happens when the monarch's own companion choose someone who is already a herald. Re:lhm --(on Jisa's potental choosing) "But for a potential King's Own that wouldn't be a Bonded choosing" So one could infer that the companions Usually know who the next monarch's own will/could be. ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1134 **********************************