MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1138 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: touched nerves (fluffy)/ marriage /what horses can do by Erik Wayne McKee 2) ADMIN: troubleshooting guide by Melanie Dymond Harper 3) Barbie by Dianna Aubuchon 4) Yfandes by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 5) marriages/food (fluff)/lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise by "John and Kara Pekar" 6) Re: AoQ by Azreil1997-+AT+-aol.com 7) Lifebonds and non-heralds (was SOI SPOILER!!!!!!!!) by Jennifer Dorn 8) Re: SOI by Jennifer Dorn 9) Re: SOI SPOILER!!!!!!!! by Chris & Sean Talbot 10) Re: marriages/food (fluff)/lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise by Jennifer Wrenn 11) Re: marriages/food (fluff)/lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise by John Hagen 12) speculation/lifebonds etc.... by cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net 13) Re: Fire Rose by Myra and Ronald Dean 14) Re: One True Way, Size of Valdemar, Hammer Dulcimers? by Bethany Weber 15) Re: Fire Rose by Megan Schreiber 16) Re: AoQ by Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:50:46 -0600 (CST) From: Erik Wayne McKee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: touched nerves (fluffy)/ marriage /what horses can do Message-ID: Cynedd wrote: > Hmmmm, now I need and ObMisty. Oh, I finally read SGryphin and I kinda > liked it, although the characters were terribly one-dimensional in places. > But one of the things that I found rather interesting was the fact that > Misty, who is so active on behalf of endangered birds, didn't seem to have > any qualms about writing a story in which a unique, intelligent species is > extinquished. And ironically, the wyrsa in the story didn't even seem > terribly "evil" (which might presumably have justified wiping them out > completely). They reacted to the presence of large strange carnivores in > their territory in what seemed to me to be a very natural way. They only > really starting getting nasty after they had been injured. And in the > end, they all were killed and the "heroes" were happy. Sort of an odd > ending from a writer who is big into conservation efforts. These Wyrsa did eat magic, after all. Even though they are currently quite a distance from White Gryphon or the outpost that Tad and Blade were headed too, they could eventially cause problems at either of these two locations. How are parties going to reach the outpost without the possibility of what happened to Tad and Blade happening to them? How are our heroes supposed to get back to White Gryphon without having the Wyrsa trail them their, and then devouring all the magic in sight? All in all, I'd say that these Wyrsa pose a rather large problem already, and if they were allowed to multiply further, couldn't they cause larger problems? On the other hand, we do have a couple of other examples of creatures being wiped out. Take the things that come out of the Pelagirs, for instance. They were bred by the mage storms resulting from the cataclysm, as it is suggested that these Wyrsa were, and they are generaly exterminated whenever possible by the Valdemarins, the Rethwellans, the Tayledras, and the Shin'a'in. Sorry if my memory's a bit foggy, being an awfully busy college student tends to do that. After all, this is a very good way to procrastinate school work ;) Sheeps to the sticklers for textevd, but books at home, me at school. Bright Blessings Erik #include ps. Deniz, how goes procrastination on that naming ceremony for us fellow procrastinators that Mat delagated to you for further procrastination? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:25:30 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: troubleshooting guide Message-ID: <199703181825.SAA05760-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> This is the list Troubleshooting Guide. If you're having problems getting on and off the list, please read this and see if it solves your problem... Mel 1. Help! I'm trying to subscribe but ... 1a. I get an error message telling me that "No name given to SUBSCRIBE" Listproc takes two arguments when you want to subscribe to a list; the name of the list (in this case, MERCEDES-LACKEY) and your name. The name you give need not be your real name -- there's nothing to stop you using some kind of usename -- though it's sometimes easier for me to fix problems if I have a real name. It's not vital. Fix: give your name, or something like it, when you're subscribing. 1b. Listproc tells me that I am already subscribed, though I'm not getting mail. Did you set your options to POSTPONE at some time in the past? If not, it is possible that your subscription has been set that way due to an excessive number of errors as we try to send mail to you (perhaps your mailbox became full, perhaps you went over your quota, perhaps the machine to which your mail was sent was offline for a while). Fix 1: send mail to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk, leaving the Subject line blank or using "No Subject", and in the message body write set mercedes-lackey mail ack or set mercedes-lackey mail digest depending whether you'd rather receive individual messages or digests. Fix 2: if fix 1 doesn't work, write to lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk and give details of the problem. 1c. Listproc tells me that I am already subscribed, and I am getting mail. Then you don't need to resubscribe, do you? :) 1d. Listproc is ignoring me -- I never get a response. Fix 1 -- check your return address. (This applies particularly to people who have typed in their own return address at some point, such as most Netscape users.) Make sure that the address points to you, and that you haven't transposed letters, used commas instead of full stops, etc. etc. Fix 2 -- if you're on AOL, you _must_ put something in your subject line, or you can't send the mail -- don't use "Subscribe", "Unsubscribe", "test" or variations thereon. If "No Subject" seems too boring, use "Chocolate Cake" if you must :) (This may apply to other email packages as well. If it tries to use the first line of your message as a subject line, you should use "No Subject".) 1e. Listproc doesn't seem to understand my mail, and sends back an error message. This is usually caused by mail programs which insist on putting in either some headings showing the sender of the mail, or which encode even plain text as a MIME message. Listproc needs to find its requests in the first line of a message, and will give up if it can't. Fix: turn off the headings or the MIME encoding (speak to your local tech staff if you can't do this). 2. Help! I'm trying to unsubscribe but ... 2a. Listproc tells me that I'm not subscribed, but nothing else. I'm still getting mail. Has your mailing address changed since you subscribed? If it has, and you can still send mail from the old address, try unsubscribing from there, instead. If you can no longer send mail from the old address, send mail to lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk saying what the old address was and you will be removed manually. If you don't think your address has changed, send mail to lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk to unsubscribe -- the chances are good that something has been changed along the line which is causing your system to show a different address. (This happens more often than you would believe.) 2b. Listproc tells me that I'm not subscribed, but nothing else. I'm not getting mail. Either (a) you already unsubscribed successfully, or (b) you were never on the list in the first place. No action needed. 2c. Listproc tells me that I'm not subscribed, but something that looks like my address is. Your setup has changed, or you're sending from a different machine. If you can send mail from the machine named in the address Listproc sends back, do so; if you can't, or if that doesn't work, send mail to lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk to be removed. 2d. Listproc is ignoring me -- I never get a response. See 1d above; same problem. 2e. Listproc doesn't seem to understand my mail, and sends back an error message. See 1e above; same problem. 3. Help! I'm trying to post to the list but ... 3a. Listproc tells me that I'm not subscribed, but nothing else. I don't get mail from the list. You need to be a member of the list to post to the list. Either (a) subscribe to the list, (b) stop trying to post to the list, or (c) (rare cases only) send the article you were trying to post to mel-+AT+-herald.co.uk and have her post it for you. Note that (c) applies only to _very_ Lackey-relevant articles and people who have reasons for not being on the list. 3b. Listproc tells me that I'm not subscribed, but nothing else. I do get mail from the list. Same problem as 2a above. If your mailing address has changed since you subscribed, try sending the article from the old address, if you can. If you can't do that, it is probably worth unsubscribing from the old address, and resubscribing from the new address (this may involve mail to lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk as in 2a). Then send your article again. 3c. Listproc tells me that I'm not subscribed, but something which looks like my address is. Same problem, and similar fix, to 2c above. If you're in a place with a lot of different machines and the address from which your mail appears to come reflects this (often the case in universities) it may be worth sending mail to lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk to have your various machines added to the 'aliases' list. 3d. Listproc is ignoring me -- I never get a response. See 1d above; same problem. 3e. Listproc returns a message which starts, "We are sorry, but ..." This is usually the case if Listproc spots a word like "test" or "subscribe" in the first couple of lines of your message. (Don't complain about it _too_ loudly; it stops a lot of misplaced requests getting through to the list.) Fix: rewrite your message to move or delete the word concerned. 3f. I get some junk about "unknown mailer" What this actually means is "the machine was too busy to process your mail right now, try later". It's just not an especially friendly way of saying so. Luckily this doesn't happen especially often these days. 3g. Listproc doesn't seem to understand my mail, and sends back an error message. See 1e above; same problem. 4. Help! I hate computers. Why can't this be simple? Computers are very literal-minded creatures, and as such they can only do what they're told. This means, for example, that if you're told to write subscribe mercedes-lackey Jane Smith in the body of a mail message, the following things will not work; a) writing "subscribe mercedes-lackey Jane Smith" in the subject line of your mail message; (wrong place) b) writing "Please subscribe me to the Mercedes Lackey mailing list. Thanks, Jane Smith" in the body of your mail message (wrong format) c) writing "suscribe mercedes-lackey Jane Smith" in the body of your mail message (wrong spelling; if you can't spell 'subscribe', it may be abbreviated to 'sub') d) writing "subscribe mercedes_lackey Jane Smith" in the body of your mail message (wrong spelling, again; it's a hyphen, not an underscore) Computers are not people. Computers will not (necessarily) recognise what you meant if it's "close enough". Your faithful listmistress does not read through every piece of mail sent to Listproc to see if people have been making errors (life is too short). All you really need to do is _follow the instructions_ -- and if you don't understand them, you may ask for help after reading through the list above and seeing whether any of it applies to you. Any additional questions for the list should be sent to Mel at mel-+AT+-herald.co.uk or lackey-owner-+AT+-herald.co.uk. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:39:00 -0600 (CST) From: Dianna Aubuchon To: ML list Subject: Barbie Message-ID: On March 7, Cennydd wrote in defense of Barbie, which I'll have to agree with. My five year old sister plays with her extensive collection all of the time. If making Misty clothes for the Barbie dolls gives me an opportunity to share her fiction (on a more elementary level, of course) with my sister, even if it means playing with the dolls with her, I'll do it. I just view it as a chance to become further involved with her (especially since I'm away at college and only see her on the weekends), and I've been looking for a way to share my love of adult fantasy fiction with my younger sibs. Dianna (no use name as of yet) * * * * * * * * It would be a pretty good bet that the gods of a world like [the Discworld] probably do not play chess and indeed this is the case. In fact no gods anywhere play chess. They haven't got the imagination. Gods prefer simple, vicious games, where you Do Not Achieve Transcendence but Go Straight To Oblivion. . . Terry Pratchett Wyrd Sisters ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 16:00:02 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Yfandes Message-ID: <9703131500.AA01938-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> hola, just a quick note, Nina wrote: > For me, the saddest scene was Van's death at the point when Yfandes says she > had always known what their partnership would come down to. At that point, > it really sunk in that this was the end (in a way). Yes - on reflection, this demonstrates the greatest love of the books - the love of Yfandes for Van. She knew him like no other, had fought his lethargy and rejection initially, been with him through everything. The total depth of her love is revealed - they could only die together. Which would choose to live on without the other? 'Lendel, Stef, Savill, his sister - yes all people he loved, but Yfandes was the bedrock on which his life rested - I think she kept him sane after 'Lendel's suicide, and probably just kept on doing it. Mind you, I'm not saying there's not other bits that don't get to me, and I did a mental cheer when Tashira or whatever asks him why he's still mourning after 12 years. 'kay, said it was only a quickie, dooie, Esmeralda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:28:25 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: marriages/food (fluff)/lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise Message-ID: <199703182033.PAA20062-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> I think it was Paradox who introduced the question of whether marriages in Valdemar can be annulled or dissolved in any way. (Sorry, I hit delete instead of copy when I was cutting out your question to quote it, and then couldn't find an Undo command...) Crystal responded that Teren's pre-Choice marriage had been dissolved. Here's the actual quote, as Keren spoke to Talia: "Then it happened. He was Chosen. And the wife he had thought he was contented with turned out to mean less to him than he'd ever dreamed. He *wanted* to love her, he really did. He tried to make himself love her -- it didn't work. He went through an incredible amount of soul-searching and guilt before concluding that the emotion wasn't there and wasn't going to be, and that his real life was with the Circle and his Companion. And to tell the truth, his wife -- now ex-wife -- didn't really seem to care. His children were adopted inot our family and she turned around and married into another with no sign of regret that *I* could see." [AFlight, ch. 9, p. 391 in SFBC omnibus ed. of _Queen's Own_] The fact that Keren refers to Teren's *ex-*wife, and the fact that his wife remarried, make it clear that some sort of annullment or dissolution of marriage is possible in Valdemar, at least among the Evendim clans. (I doubt it's an option among the Holderkin, unless they have a provision for putting aside a wife for adultery or something.) We can say this much for certain: Valdemaran law does not prevent some sort of dissolution of marriage, at least under certain circumstances, such as the Choosing of one spouse. We don't have enough evidence to speculate as to whether marriages which do not involve Companion's Choice can be dissolved; whether Valdemaran law doesn't address the question at all, leaving it up to the customs and/or religion of the people in question; whether marriages of highborn can be dissolved (which could lead to tricky questions of inheritance, title, etc.); or whether Valdemaran law in fact guarantees the right to dissolve a marriage for any reason or specific reasons. My personal guess is that either the law states that a dissolution of marriage is permissible, period, or that it states that it is permissible given certain conditions (like mutual consent, or proof of abuse). +++++++++++++food, British vs. American+++++++++++++++ Cennydd, your cooking sounds *wonderful*!! Wish we could have a real banquet, instead of a virtual one -- I'd nominate you chief cook. I've eaten British cooking; it has the same variations in quality as North American, though obviously not the same foods! I wouldn't want to judge British cooking on some of the meals I've eaten, but the best of it was scrumptious: fabulous pub lunches of meat or pate, cheese, and chewy fresh bread; great breakfasts reminiscent of the ones described in Agatha Christie or Dorothy Sayers novels; hearty beef-and-Yorkshire-pudding dinners. (On the other hand, what can you say about a lunch consisting of two Wonder-type bread sandwiches, one spread thinly with lemon curd, which is sort of like the inside of a lemon merengue pie, and one spread thinly with Marmite, which I gather is made from yeast and tastes like nothing I've ever eaten -- or ever want to!) But IMHO, and with all due deference to Christie or Sayers (whichever it was who said that the meal the British do best is breakfast), the crown of British cuisine is TEA -- specifically, a Devon cream tea. Mmmmm! Fresh scones, thickly spread with sweet butter, homemade strawberry jam, and clotted cream -- heaven! (For those who haven't tasted it, clotted cream is a lot better than it sounds; it's rather like very thick whipped cream, only much richer and better, and IMO it's best made with Devon cream, which has a really rich taste to begin with.) (I have a scone recipe I'll be happy to share, if you want to email me privately: jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net) ++++++++++++++++lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise+++++++++++++++ Crystal asked: >I wonder if lifebonding exists amongst the general population or just among Heralds? I >know the book said it was rare among Heralds, and rarer still in the general >population, but there's been no evidence that non-Heralds bond like that. Any thoughts? I was about to say that I couldn't remember any non-Heraldic lifebonds, but I'm not so sure...What about Tre'valen and Dawnfire, in the Winds books? Tre'valen dreamed of her before he met her, and recognized her as his soul-mate, which sounds like a lifebond to me. To quote: "He had dreamed of this woman for years, ever since becoming a man. Since he had been initiated as a shaman, the dreams had more power. He had known in the way of the shaman even then that this woman was his soul-partner, and yet he had never seen her...Until she had first come to him on the Moonpaths, this Dawnfire, this transformed Tale'edras. Until he had seen *her* face, and not the hawk-mask of the Avatar." [WoChange, ch. 12, p. 224, US hardcover ed.] Put this together with the bit about lifebonds being rarer (not unheard-of) in the general population, and I think the answer is yes, it does exist outside the Heralds. Though it does appear to favor those with psychic gifts or spiritual insight. Still, those are probably not limited to Heralds, even in Valdemar. Hmm -- I'd bet Healers have a higher percentage of lifebonds than exist in the general population, as well. Oh -- and I assume you didn't count Stefan as a non-Herald because he's probably Tylendel reincarnated? Because at least as Stef, he wasn't a Herald, even though his lifebonded was one. For that matter, Vanyel wasn't a Herald when he and 'Lendel were lifebonded, so Vanyel's experience is double proof that lifebonding doesn't have to be limited to Herald-Herald (as it is in Keren/Ylsa/Sherril, Talia/Dirk, Kero/Eldan, Shavri/Randale, Arden/Leesa (Roald's parents) and Selenay/Daren.) Here's another question: What happens when a lifebonded, Heraldic couple dies? If they choose to reincarnate as Companions, do they remain lifebonded? I guess my real question is, does a lifebond survive death? The evidence of Tylendel/Stefan would argue that it does, unless that was a special situation, allowed because Van was going to need Stefan so. But if the bond does survive, all kinds of interesting situations arise. What if one partner was a Herald, and wants to come back as a Companion, but the other partner wasn't a Herald, so they can't? (I suppose the non-Herald could come back as a Herald-candidate; would the Herald-now-Companion get to Choose them? The human of the pair wouldn't remember the previous relationship, but the Companion might. That could get awkward.) Ah, I love philosophical questions... And an additional question: am I right in assuming that Companions and Firecats remember their previous lives, but that reincarnated humans do not, or not consciously? Evidence: Vanyel's spirit tells Elspeth that Gwena "forgets that she has *no* real, human experience to base her decisions on. It is like dictating music when you yourself have never learned to play an instrument." [WoFury, US hardcover ed., ch. 5, p. 93.] Therefore, most (read, reincarnated) Companions *do* have "real, human experience" to draw upon, and they must be able to remember it. But Stef certainly has no conscious memory of his life as 'Lendel; the only clue that he may remember on a subconscious level is that he calls Van "ashke" in his sleep. Well, have fun batting these thoughts around! Wind to thy wings, Kara Disciple of Textevd "So many books, so little time" jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:54:39 -0500 (EST) From: Azreil1997-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: AoQ Message-ID: <970318155338_415322659-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> mschreib said: >>Dirk was in considerable emotional distress, I would think. I >>mean, the guy was drinkinghimself into a stupor nightly. >>Wouldn't Talia sense that and go help? Instead, she doesn't >>notice and just gets herself frustrated? elisiande said: >>Maybe that was part of her frustration with him? That she >>could sense hisdistress and couldn't figure ou t what to do >>about it? i think talia's problem in arrows wasn't that she didn't feel dirk's emotional instability, but that she didn't know/ couldn't find out the cause of his distress because he was constantly distancing himself from the heralds and wanted to avoid her. anything she sensed would have been confusing, b/c dirk was feeling jealous and and ashmed of his jealousy. tigger wrote --And how far are they from the Eastern Empire? i would hazard a guess that the distance is at least equal to the distance between the southeast europe/ czech area to maybe as far as france. I read the Plains of Passage by Jean Auel a couple years ago, and in it the two main characters made a journey across europe between approximately the locations i mentioned. That journey took a year according to Auel, but it was mostly across flat terrain, i'm assuming the terrain that Baron Valdemar crossed was similar, but there are many factors we aren't aware of that would affect travel...like the ages of the travelers, whether they were riding horseback, pregnancies and complications, and many other things that could hinder travel. the Baron also was a mage and might be able to use magic to aid travel ashanti knight OoAM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:18:52 -0600 From: Jennifer Dorn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Lifebonds and non-heralds (was SOI SPOILER!!!!!!!!) Message-ID: <199703182122.PAA47326-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> Well, we seem to have left the realm of SOI, so no spoiler needed.... Crystal wrote (on the subject of lifebonds): >population, but there's been no evidence that non-Heralds bond like >that. Any thoughts? Actually, I don't think it's just heralds. Amberdrake and Wintermoon (?I think that's her name- my book's loaned out...) were lifebonded in the MWars and the Haileigh in WGryphon mention that lifebonds exist because they are considered sacred in their culture. Stefen wasn't a herald, even if he was lifebonded to one. The Tayledras seem to be familiar with the concept of lifebonding... Weren't Starwind and Moondance lifebonded? They certainly weren't heralds..... Zhai'helleva, Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:37:36 -0600 From: Jennifer Dorn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SOI Message-ID: <199703182141.PAA36294-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 03:58 PM 3/18/97 GMT, you wrote: >Is Sword of Ice available in paperback in the US yet? Yes it is, but like I said, most bookstores in my area seem to be out of it. I'm in good ol' Madison, Wisconsin. We have everything else, but I had to order it. You should be able to get it at a Barnes and Noble or something. ******************* Esme said: >Mind you, I'm not saying there's not other bits that don't get to me, and I >did a mental cheer when Tashira or whatever asks him why he's still mourning >after 12 years. oooh. That part always gets me. The first time I read that scene where Van loses his cool and tells Tashir all about 'Lendel made me ache completely. Tashir has a point, but it's a tribute to Misty's writing talents that I totally understood Van's need to hold onto his grief. Sorry it's such a short post.... Khala il rede he, Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:03:37 -0500 From: Chris & Sean Talbot To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SOI SPOILER!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <199703182203.RAA24348-+AT+-relief.idirect.com> At 02:40 AM 3/18/97 GMT, you wrote: >yea! I just got a copy of _Sword of Ice_.... For some obnoxious reason or >other, I had to order it. Go figure. It's been a good week for the orders >coming in and a bad week for the pocketbook. (the people down at the gaming >store finally found me a copy of _Tales from the Floating Vagabond_, so now >I have to go pick that up too.) > >S >W >O >R >D > >O >F > >I >C >E > >S >P >O >I >L >E >R >Herald's Honor" as well, but it brings up an interesting point. Can >marriages be anulled in Valdemar? Do they have divorce? I know Martin wasn't Yes marriages can be anulled in Valdemar. It was in the Last Herald Mage. When Jisa got married to Treven. They said something similar to The only way they could annul the marriage is if they wanted a divorce. So marriage can be anulled and divorces could happen. >married, but how often do you think marriages get broken because one member >of the couple bedcomes lifebonded to another person? Is their some kind of >"escape clause" in case a lifebonding does occur? I'd like to know what >everyone thinks of this...... Okay it is said that lifebondeds are so rare that most people will never find there bond mate. It is almost non existent they said between non herald couples. So in marriage the only way you can leave your married person is to divorse. Just like Teren in Arrows of the Queen. He was divorced and she remarried. Aistes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:03:03 -0500 From: Jennifer Wrenn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: marriages/food (fluff)/lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970318220303.0067d7fc-+AT+-atlonline.com> Kara wrote: >Here's another question: What happens when a lifebonded, Heraldic couple >dies? If they choose to reincarnate as Companions, do they remain >lifebonded? I guess my real question is, does a lifebond survive death? >The evidence of Tylendel/Stefan would argue that it does, unless that was a >special situation, allowed because Van was going to need Stefan so. But if >the bond does survive, all kinds of interesting situations arise. What if >one partner was a Herald, and wants to come back as a Companion, but the >other partner wasn't a Herald, so they can't? (I suppose the non-Herald >could come back as a Herald-candidate; would the Herald-now-Companion get >to Choose them? The human of the pair wouldn't remember the previous >relationship, but the Companion might. That could get awkward.) Ah, I love >philosophical questions... As I understand it, didn't 'Lendel come back because he felt something was unfinished or he didn't give Van what he should have? I vaguely recall Moonsong or Starwind saying something like that, just after Savil discovered Stef and Van were lifebonded, when Van got hit with the leech blade. Anyways, as to lifebonds surviving death, I would say we have several pieces of evidences FOR it surviving. One, for example: Tre'valen and Dawnfire. He was alive, she was whatever-it-takes-to-become-an-avatar (basically dead, right?), but when HE died, they remained together, still with the lifebond. Of course, I guess that could've been because she was an Avatar, but they were spirits, at any rate. And, of course, the obvious example is Stef and Van, who remained lifebonded after death, in Sorrows. About the Heralds/Companions, though, that could get pretty sticky. My guess is that in those cases, which WERE pretty rare, after all, for all that we see so many among the top players, the bond is dissolved. Maybe the Herald-now-Companion doesn't remember the feeling of the bond, so they aren't grief-stricken over it; maybe somehow the visit with the Shadowlover breaks all former bonds of love, leaving the spirit free to find new ones. Because of the nature of Dawnfire's and Tre'valen's deaths, and the nature of Kal'enal (sp?), mayhaps they never met the Shadowlover, or She chose to allow them their bond. Maybe Van and Stef also had to choice to keep the bond, since they would be guarding Sorrows together. But in a non-Herald/Herald bond, though, I doubt that the non-Herald comes back. I don't remember exactly where I read this (sorry 'bout lack of textevd, can't find my books :( ), but I seem to recall maybe Jaysen saying that the Heralds got the choice to come back because of who and what they were. That implies to me that ordinary folk don't get that choice... Also, Firecats ONLY exist as the souls of former Sons of the Sun. That seems to also imply that only certain folk can come back. But I could be misremembering, so I'll hold comment on that. Anyways, that's quite enough babbling from THIS American. Wind to thy wingsibs, and may you all enjoy--whatever it is that you eat! NightSong jwrenn-+AT+-atlonline.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:03:38 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: marriages/food (fluff)/lifebonds, Heraldic and otherwise Message-ID: <332F112E.70E9-+AT+-snet.net> Kara said > What about Tre'valen and Dawnfire, in the Winds books? > Tre'valen dreamed of her before he met her, and recognized her as his > soul-mate, which sounds like a lifebond to me. To quote: > "He had dreamed of this woman for years, ever since becoming a man. Since > he had been initiated as a shaman, the dreams had more power. He had known > in the way of the shaman even then that this woman was his soul-partner, > and yet he had never seen her...Until she had first come to him on the > Moonpaths, this Dawnfire, this transformed Tale'edras. Until he had seen > *her* face, and not the hawk-mask of the Avatar." [WoChange, ch. 12, p. > 224, US hardcover ed.] I agree with you. I think, despite noone saying it outright, that Dawnfire and Tre'valen _were_ lifebonded. It just makes sense. After all, the Star-Eyed would not be so cruel to her peoples as to make two from the separate cultures of Shi'na'in and Tayledras be eternally separate from each other. Now, after the Storms have stopped, Tre'valen and Dawnfire have no more physical substance and can only appear on the Moonpaths as needed (or maybe when they are called there by those in need or did I just say that?) Kara said> Oh -- and I assume you didn't count Stefan as a non-Herald because he's > probably Tylendel reincarnated? Because at least as Stef, he wasn't a > Herald, even though his lifebonded was one. For that matter, Vanyel wasn't > a Herald when he and 'Lendel were lifebonded, so Vanyel's experience is > double proof that lifebonding doesn't have to be limited to Herald-Herald > (as it is in Keren/Ylsa/Sherril, Talia/Dirk, Kero/Eldan, Shavri/Randale, > Arden/Leesa (Roald's parents) and Selenay/Daren.) Again, I agree with you. Further I think that the only reason we have seen as many lifebonds as we have is that they were necessary as plot devices. Certainly, Talia's and Dirk's lifebond was necessary to the plot of Arrow's Fall. She would have never been rescued from Ancar and Hulda without, let alone lived afterwards. Kara said> But if > the bond does survive, all kinds of interesting situations arise. What if > one partner was a Herald, and wants to come back as a Companion, but the > other partner wasn't a Herald, so they can't? (I suppose the non-Herald > could come back as a Herald-candidate; would the Herald-now-Companion get > to Choose them? The human of the pair wouldn't remember the previous > relationship, but the Companion might. That could get awkward.) Why would it get awkward? Heralds don't usually have much in the way of a serious relationship outside of the Companion/Herald relationship and the Heraldic Circle unless it's a lifebond. And if the Herald half of a reincarnated lifebonded couple lifebonded to another human, wouldn't the Companion half of the reincarnated lifebonded couple accept it? After all, the lifebond relationship could (probably would) become a threeway lifebond. Wouldn't that be something? Kara said> And an additional question: am I right in assuming that Companions and > Firecats remember their previous lives, but that reincarnated humans do > not, or not consciously? Evidence: Vanyel's spirit tells Elspeth that > Gwena "forgets that she has *no* real, human > experience to base her decisions on. It is like dictating music when you > yourself have never learned to play an instrument." [WoFury, US hardcover > ed., ch. 5, p. 93.] Therefore, most (read, reincarnated) Companions *do* > have "real, human experience" to draw upon, and they must be able to > remember it. But Stef certainly has no conscious memory of his life as > 'Lendel; the only clue that he may remember on a subconscious level is that > he calls Van "ashke" in his sleep. Yep, I think you are correct on this one. After all, didn't Starwind and Moondance both think that Stef was Tylendel in his previous life? I'm on Tylenol w/codiene and will be having a biopsy performed on my liver because I can't take my NSAID until after the liver biopsy. I've been taking Diclofenac, a NSAID, for my sciatica, plus Methotrexate, a cancer drug, for my psoriasis. Therefore the doctors want to be sure that I haven't been beating up on my liver by following doctors orders and taking all these strange medications. Of course, if my liver is showing signs of severe enough damage, the doctors will take me off everything but my depakote, ferrous gluconate, and supplemental calcium w/minerals. Then I'm going to demand that they refer to a pain management specialist. Sciatica and psoriatic arthritis are _no_ fun whatsoever. Lady Sara, LIG and Dryad Extraordinaire Hopeful Diety of All Marsupials, Past, Present, and Future ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:12:12 -0500 From: cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: speculation/lifebonds etc.... Message-ID: <332F214C.21CA-+AT+-spectra.net> My question about bonding taking place amongst non-Heralds was answered...thanks to all .... It seems to me that the couples who lifebond do have a rather high level of psychic or mage abilities ... Heralds - mindmagic; Healers - Empathy; Shin'a'in - the bond with their Goddess?; Tayledras - mage abilities and inherent magic of their race ... the only psychic connection I couldn't come up with was with the Hai...Hale... those dark-skinned people in WG!!! ;) Even the Bardic Gift is enough like Empathy to allow the bond ... (Van said this in the third HM book) ... I still wonder if lifebonding is possible for those *without* all the extra gifts ... ? Then again, it's purely speculation as there is no evidence amongst the books .... and I'm rambling.... ;) As for the question concerning lifebonded Heralds...reincarnation... survival of the bond etc ... there may be more information in the first MStorms book ... I recall a short discussion on why the Companions chose to keep their true nature a secret because of the effect it would have on living Heralds. I'll look up the actual passage later, but I would say such a bond would not exist after death ... hence the term lifebond .... not life-and-beyond-bond. Make sense? Crystal ---------Christopher J. Kocher-------Crystal D. Sarakas-------- ----------------------cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net--------------------- "Would anybody like to write a song with me now? A line at a time?" - Ray Davies, during a CompuServe chat "It is appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed our humanity." - Albert Einstein -------Ask about ordering information for "Ninth Aspect"------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:25:49 +0000 From: Myra and Ronald Dean To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fire Rose Message-ID: <199703190030.TAA24374-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> Well, I finally got my hands on a copy of "THe Fire Rose". I am not quite halfway through it. So far so good. But I am still not sure if I'll actually buy it. What did ya'll think of it? Is it a keeper? -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:29:13 -0600 (CST) From: Bethany Weber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: One True Way, Size of Valdemar, Hammer Dulcimers? Message-ID: Here it is... a braid! Aren't you all proud? :) "John and Kara Pekar" spake thusly: ::I think Nightsong was trying to convey the idea of a medieval culture with a USA-style doctrine of acceptance of others' differences. (Actually, we don't succeed in that doctrine as well as we'd like, in part because some people's differences include an intolerance of *other* people's differences.) But this brings up an interesting point. Living a policy of "there is no one, true way" is more difficult in practice than in theory, and that is true in Valdemar as well.:: Too true, too true. I agree completely. I'd never thought of the Holderkin -- that's a great example. Sorry, this is something I'd thought about a lot when I read _Burning Water_. I ended up posting a serious Weredragon Musing to the newsgroup -- if you all make me angry, I'll post it here and force you to read it, too. ;) Mary Adams wrote in burning letters: :: How big is Valdemar? And how far are they from the Eastern Empire? They can't be to far for the Empire to invade Hardorn at the end of Winds of Fury, yet it says "Valdemar had run for years with his people before settling here,.." (Wind of Fury, page 285 in my copy). So how far is it? Please somebody tell me. :: I'm afraid I don't have a Velgarth map with the Empire on it on me, but you can measure it (sort of.) The question is: what is a league? If we can figure out what that is, then we're all set: White Foal Pass is about 3 dozen leagues from the center of the Dhorisha plains (TBG, paperback, pg 16) If the maps in TBG and _Magic's Price_ (the only ones I have handy) are to anything resembling scale, then Valdemar is a little under twice than from White Foal Pass to the Forest of Sorrows. Lastly: I'm afriad I deleted this digest but did someone say something about there being instruments where you hit strings with hammers in Velgarth? If so, what book was this in? My mom is learning to play the hammer dulcimer, that's why I'm curious. :) Bethany Weber ------------------Official Weredragon of Rice University------------------- "The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination." -Garak, DS9, "Improbable Cause." But reality is *always* an excuse for lack of imagination. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Dragon etiquette is incredibly complicated, and if you make a mistake, the dragon eats you." -- Patricia C. Wrede, _Talking to Dragons_ ------------------http://www.owlnet.rice.edu:80/~bethany/------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:21:48 -0700 From: Megan Schreiber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fire Rose Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970319022148.00687ad4-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu> At 01:35 AM 3/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >Well, I finally got my hands on a copy of "THe Fire Rose". >I am not quite halfway through it. So far so good. But I am still >not sure if I'll actually buy it. What did ya'll think of it? Is it >a keeper? YES! I absolutely love that book. One of my favorite Misty books, actually. :) I have to get myself a copy of it one of these days...perhaps once I manage to find a job... Wyvern http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 22:36:01 -0500 (EST) From: Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: AoQ Message-ID: <970318223517_605896025-+AT+-emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-18 20:09:28 EST, you write: << la >> ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1138 **********************************