MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1140 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: hrmph? by "John and Kara Pekar" 2) Christians/lifebonds by "John and Kara Pekar" 3) Re: Christians by "Sera" 4) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 5) Re: Christians by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 6) trivia prize and christians by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 7) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by DC Kincaid 8) RE: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by Christi Redeker 9) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by Rob & Jody Edwards & Family 10) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by Ken Hyde 11) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-BAYLOR.EDU 12) marriage/scones & marmite/animal conservation by "John and Kara Pekar" 13) Lifebonds/reincarnations/memories by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 15) Re: Christians/lifebonds by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 16) Fluffish by SUS Guest Student 17) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by Rob & Jody Edwards & Family 18) Re: to Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by "Brian Sizemore" 19) bye for now by "JAIME HATHAWAY" 20) RE: Christians by Sunny Norwood 21) love/sentience/wyrsa by cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net 22) RE: speculation/lifebonds etc.... by Jennifer Dorn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:07:31 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: Subject: Re: hrmph? Message-ID: <199703191812.NAA15501-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> Crys wrote: >Many apologies for the short post ... but is anyone else getting the >posts all out of order? I'm also a bit curious as to whether my posts >have shown up .. they haven't come back to me... weirdness is afoot >... :) Yes, I'm having the same problem. Mel thought it was my ISP, but if it's happening to you as well, apparently it's not the ISP. (BTW, make sure you post Mel directly to let her know you're having a problem. Contact me off list if you need her address.) I'm also curious as to how many others are having similar difficulties. In my case, I'm getting posts in mixed order, not getting some of my own back, and getting others of my own back days or even a week after I sent them. (Other people responded to them, so apparently they got to the list, just not back to me.) Oh -- make sure you set the listproc to "acknowledge" so the listserver knows to send your messages back -- the FAQ Mel sent out some weeks ago tells how. If you don't have a copy of the FAQ, it's on the webpage or you can email me direct -- I kept my copy. (I sent this to the whole list so others who might need the address or FAQ could know where to find it.) Kara "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:56:16 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: Christians/lifebonds Message-ID: <199703191812.NAA15494-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> Kalishanra wrote: >Also, totaly off the subject but, I've noticed many of you are practicing >Wiccans, but are there any other Christians on the list? At least one -- I was raised Quaker, converted to the Episcopal Church during college, and became a Catholic when I got married (a fairly liberal Catholic, and yes, those do exist ) I've retained a lot of what I gained as a Quaker: a belief that there is that of God in every person; an emphasis on the importance of individual conscience; and a conviction that intolerance and predjudice are wrong, and that what God calls us to is to love and respect all people. Now I've got a question: Has anyone on this list run into the idea, held by some non-Christians and fundamental Christians alike, that Christians don't or shouldn't read fantasy? Or that if you do read fantasy, you must not be, or can't be, Christian? I find such a view to be nearly incomprehensible, but I come across it a lot here in rural Virginia (from the fundamental Christians.) It's very annoying. The fundamental or conservative Christians who hold this idea (and not all of them do) seem to think that if fantasy involves magic or psychic gifts or religions other than Christianity (particularly goddess-based or multitheistic), it is therefore wrong or evil or of the devil, and either I shouldn't read it because I'm Christian, or I can't possibly be Christian because I read it. And the non-Christians who hold this idea (and many of them don't) seem to think that because I'm Christian, I'm therefore too closeminded or too "fundamental" to read fantasy, and are very surprised when I do. (I tend to run into these folks when I'm up in the DC suburbs.) I don't understand it. No one seems to think that a practicing Wiccan "can't" or "shouldn't" read books in which Christianity is the main or only religion. No one seems to think that a Jew or a Buddhist can't read fantasy. Why should this odd predjudice exist both within and outside Christianity? (Kara gets off her soapbox, looks around with embarrassment, and returns to her corner, hoping no one was offended, since such was certainly not her intention and she was not referring to anyone on this list.) +++++++++++lifebonds++++++++++++++ little alex wrote: >I don't think lifebonds can survive death. If they can, then the >person left could never lifebond again. So the Keren/Ylsa/Sherril >partnering could never happen. But in AotQ, Talia speculated that if Ylsa had lived, the three might formed one of the rare threesomes (I'm quoting from memory here; for once, the book isn't on the shelf and I can't remember where I put it.) So I don't think the fact that Keren bonds to Sherril after Ylsa's death can be used as an argument agains lifebonds surviving death. The Keren/Sherril bond is in addition to the Keren/Ylsa bond, not a replacement of it in the strictest sense. Furthermore, it seems possible, given the depths of Sherril's grief when Ylsa dies, that Sherril had an unacknowledged bond with Ylsa as well as with Keren. In fact, I don't think we have a single example of a surviving lifebonded bonding with a second partner after the first partner's death, except Keren/Ylsa/Sherril (which I already adressed) and Vanyel/TylendelStefan, which doesn't count since Stef is a reincarnation of 'Lendel. But -- my original question was more related to a lifebond surviving after *both* partner's deaths, and people have come up with some very interesting thoughts on that -- thanks. Thanks also to those who pointed out Amberdrake and Winterhart, Cinnabar and what's-his-name, and Starwind and Moondance. I'd forgotten about them. I agree entirely; a lifebond appears to require some sort of psychic or spiritual sensitivity. I'm just not sure that automatically means that sometimes those gifts aren't found in the general population. In Valdemar, those with Heraldic-type gifts are likely to come to the attention of the Companions sooner or later -- but outside Valdemar, or when dealing with Bardic or Healer-type gifts within Valdemar, it's at least possible that people with these gifts never get the training they need, and remain part of "the general population". Nonetheless, they might lifebond. Here's another question along the same lines: Do lifebonds come about by chance? Or are they the direct result of divine intervention/interference/predestination/determination? I recall somewhere reading that people don't always find their lifebonded partner. I also recall Stefan telling Skif and Nyara about lifebonds: "It's a lot like having a Predestined Fate: often uncomfortable, frequently inconvenient, usually hazardous." And a little later in the same conversation, "Van thinks that it's likelier that someone with an extremely powerful Gift of some kind and a tendency to deep depression will be lifebonded than someone who is not so burdened and hag-ridden. That's so the Gifted-and-suicidal half has someone outside of himself to keep him stable and give him an external focus." [WoFury, ch. 5, p. 100-101] That certainly suggests that whether someone has a lifebonded partner somewhere in the world is less random and more the determination of the gods. Although I'd like to point out that Vanyel isn't entirely correct in his theory. Talia, Keren, Moondance, possibly Winterhart, and Van himself certainly fall into the Gifted-but-subject-to-depression category (as, come to think of it, did Tylendel once his brother was dead. But in that case, both had depressive tendencies, and even if 'Lendel didn't, 'Lendel had the Gifts but Van had the depression.) Amberdrake was more gifted than Winterhart, and possibly as inclined toward depression once she'd gotten over what was eating her, so maybe he was the one that fits the Gifted-but-depressed category. But I don't see Kero and Eldan, Selenay and Daren, or even Tre'valen and Dawnfire as fitting into this stable vs. ustable scenario. In Selanay's case -- yes, she has the burdens of rule, but a) she seems to handle them pretty well most of the time, and b) she has the Queen's Own, whose purpose is to keep her stable. Shavri and Randale -- Not enough evidence. Shavri's decision to open an unrestricted channel to Randi was suicidal in a sense, but I'm not sure that it was necessarily based solelyon her reluctance to live without him. Surely, it was also based on her love for him, and wanting to give him all the help she could? In addition, she was hardly unaware that he was the King -- and Heralds have willingly sacrificed themselves for King and kingdom before and since, not because they were depressed, but out of love and because the good of the kingdom came first. Shavri knew that the Heir wasn't ready yet -- why not do all she could to prolong Randi's life? And Randale does not strike me as being a depressive personality. So -- Van's theory may have some merit, but it doesn't explain all lifebonds, and may not even cover the majority. (Fits his theory: Talia/Dirk, Keren/Ylsa/Sherril, Van/Stefan. May or may not fit: Moondance/Starwind (did Moondance remain subject to depression after he was healed and bonded with Starwind?), Amberdrake/Winterhart, Shavri/Randale. Don't fit: Kero/Eldan, Selenay/Daren, Tre'valen/Dawnfire.) Just a side note: has it struck anyone else as amusing and ironic that Kero and Selanay, Eldan and Daren each end up lifebonding with the other's ex-lover? Well, that's about all I can do for today, my friends. I've been struck down by the flu and I'd better get back to bed. Wind to thy wings, Kara Disciple of Textevd "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:18:43 CST From: "Sera" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians Message-ID: <2408A9A1F56-+AT+-email.rosary.edu> >I believe it was Shadowsong who asked if there were any other >Christians on the list--- Looking around to see who else was raising their hands I raise my own... Here's another one * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Truly you have a dizzying intellect." The Princess Bride "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essential est invisible pour les yeux." Le Petit Prince Antoine de Saint-Exupery * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Liz Blaszak Goddess of the Eventide Apprentice to the Guild of Typoists blaszael-+AT+-email.rosary.edu http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3772/ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4537/ (708) 524-6997 X2076 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:45:08 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <199703191844.AA268197055-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> >the wyrsa: they are vicious, they seem to serve no real purpose, and I don't >believe they were supposed to exist in the first place (again, IIRC, they were >created by "accident" by a mage aiming for something radically different >[_Silver Gryphon_?]). Plus, the wyrsa are not intelligent/sentient/whatever the >way the gryphons are (thus the argument comparing gryphons and wyrsa are like >comparing apples and oranges); They're not like the gryphons, but they are sentient. After all, the wyrsa did learn to adapt to whatever was thrown at them. And, (hoping I'm not giving anything away here) remeber that mezmerizing trick they used by moving in certain patterns (like a chain or something of that sort)? That was a pretty good tactic, and not one a non-sentient creature could come up with and execute. Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:51:12 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians Message-ID: Me also. Melvin Nevergold On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, JAIME HATHAWAY wrote: > I believe it was Shadowsong who asked if there were any other > Christians on the list--- > count me in on that! > Bright day, everyone! (even if it's raining where you are!) > Jacquelle > > "You broke your little ships." > Lily to Picard > Star Trek: First Contact > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:57:17 -0600 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: trivia prize and christians Message-ID: <199703191856.AA291747784-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> >Congrats to Ailsa and Nina for the correctly stating Winterhart's real name >(Reanna Laury). >(in my finest game-show host voice) >Ailsa gets an everlasting mint sheep and Nina gets any everlasting sheep of >any flavour :) > Thanks for the sheep! Any flavor, hmmm? This jsut gets better and better. I only remembered because I thought that Reanna was a really pretty name. I'm also a Christian (although of the Catholic persuaison) ;) Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:59:56 -0500 From: DC Kincaid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <333037AC.1419-+AT+-peace.oaktree.net> > The creatures in the Pelagirs (IIRC, they're not all exactly "animals"), are only exterminated if they're dangerous, it seems to me. Take, for instance, the wyrsa: they are vicious, they seem to serve no real purpose, and I don't believe they were supposed to exist in the first place (again, IIRC, they were created by "accident" by a mage aiming for something radically different [_Silver Gryphon_?]). Plus, the wyrsa are not intelligent/sentient/whatever the way the gryphons are (thus the argument comparing gryphons and wyrsa are like comparing apples and oranges); at best they have a pack mentality. Plus, wyrsa are malicious. They go out of their way to destroy things. They're not merely "inconvenient." And also, it seems to me that the Taleydras only hunt wyrsa if they pose a threat to the vale. > > Comments? > > -Icewolf Now be VERY careful Icewolf. The same thing has been said about everything from coyotes (and WOLVES) to slaves and Jews and babies. They are a pest, an annoyance, they were not meant to exist, they are only good at destroying things. Geez, the same thing can be said for a lot of people on the planet. Who are we to say what creatures god or God wants here? I don't see any dinosaurs, but we did not make them go away. Whales and dolphins and a fetus and a clone and a wolf may or may not be useful at this time, it may not be convenient to have a jungle where that oil pipeline is going but dammit, we don't have the onboard processing power to quantify casual extinctions! Seriously pissed off at destroying helpless Wyrsa!! Fast Fashion... god-determined protector of unnatural things and small furry animals... http://www.oaktree.net/angel1 Porsche, there is no substitute. mobilis in mobili ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:03:39 -0500 From: Christi Redeker To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: Icewolf wrote: ><< The creatures in the Pelagirs (IIRC, they're not all exactly >"animals"), <<and I don't believe they were supposed to exist in the first <IIRC, they were created by "accident" by a mage aiming <radically different[_Silver Gryphon_?]). Plus, the wyrsa <intelligent/sentient/whatever the way the gryphons are (thus the <comparing gryphons and wyrsa are like comparing apples and <best they have a pack mentality. Plus, wyrsa are <of their way to destroy things. They're not <also, it seems to me that the Taleydras only <threat to the vale.>> <> Sure you can have comments if you would like... :) It is common in many societies to hunt animls that pose an immediate threat. If a farm is threatened by a wolf, the farmer will try and kill that wolf, not hunt down every wolf in a three state distance. At least that is what a rational person would do. Irrational people (like hunters who kill anything that moves in the forest) will kill anything in their immediate range. Just t because someone created the wyrsa and they are a nuisance, the only time responsible vale brothers and sisters would hunt them is if they were a threat as you said. Being as such, exterminating a create just because there appears no use for it would be like killing a stray dog on the street because you don't see anyone who owns it. Maybe the mage who created the wyrsa cared for them as much as Ke'chara was cared for. There was not an immediate use for her, but she was still loved. What better reason to not kill something? Oh, and it was really only speculated why or how they wyrsa were created. They speculated that it was like the ma'kaar and that they were only created for destruction. But they were not sure, if I remember correctly. Christi Redeker Dow Workstation Service Center Colorado Springs, Colorado > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 11:42:22 -0700 From: Rob & Jody Edwards & Family To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <3330338E.3F62-+AT+-i-link.net> Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-BAYLOR.EDU wrote: > > Now *that's* a pompous subject line if I ever heard of one. :) > > Somebody (whose name has been lost to the sands of time and someone's delete > button) wrote: > > >> On the other hand, we do have a couple of other examples of creatures > >> being wiped out. Take the things that come out of the Pelagirs, for > >> instance, ... and they are generally exterminated whenever possible by the > Valdemarins, the > >> Rethwellans, the Tayledras, and the Shin'a'in. > > And then Dana wrote: > > >"Hunting a species to the brink of extinction is not logical" Spock > > > >Thes creatures were fitting into the new biosystem, they were viable > >and fairly intelligent, were they not? Does inconvenience give > >people the right to commit murder? > >Since gryphon-kind eat a lot, and since they were made by magic, > >much as these creatures were, in times of famine would it not be > >convenient to destroy gryphons to save the resource of foodstuffs and > >thereby save men? > > The creatures in the Pelagirs (IIRC, they're not all exactly "animals"), > are only exterminated if they're dangerous, it seems to me. Take, for instance, > the wyrsa: they are vicious, they seem to serve no real purpose, and I don't > believe they were supposed to exist in the first place (again, IIRC, they were > created by "accident" by a mage aiming for something radically different > [_Silver Gryphon_?]). Plus, the wyrsa are not intelligent/sentient/whatever the > way the gryphons are (thus the argument comparing gryphons and wyrsa are like > comparing apples and oranges); at best they have a pack mentality. Plus, wyrsa > are malicious. They go out of their way to destroy things. They're not merely > "inconvenient." And also, it seems to me that the Taleydras only hunt wyrsa if > they pose a threat to the vale. > > Comments? > > -Icewolf I agree 100% with you. The gryphons served a real purpose and were created to be sensible creatures, while the wyrsa were accidentally created by the mage storms and operated not on thought but instinct. They caused only destruction and the gryphons did just the opposite. -Jel'enedra Jody Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:35:42 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-BAYLOR.EDU wrote: > The creatures in the Pelagirs (IIRC, they're not all exactly "animals"), > are only exterminated if they're dangerous, it seems to me. Take, for instance, > the wyrsa: they are vicious, they seem to serve no real purpose, and I don't > believe they were supposed to exist in the first place (again, IIRC, they were > created by "accident" by a mage aiming for something radically different > [_Silver Gryphon_?]). Plus, the wyrsa are not intelligent/sentient/whatever the > way the gryphons are (thus the argument comparing gryphons and wyrsa are like > comparing apples and oranges); at best they have a pack mentality. Plus, wyrsa > are malicious. They go out of their way to destroy things. They're not merely > "inconvenient." And also, it seems to me that the Taleydras only hunt wyrsa if > they pose a threat to the vale. Well, despite the fact that it may merely be a misunderstanding on the part of naturalists, many of the same points apply to weasels (they are accidental, in that all evolutionary patterns are the result of random mutation; they apparently kill for no apparent reason, or so I have been told; and they are dangerous to other life-forms, if not to man). As for the neo-wyrsa in SG, I don't know that they are malicious beyond a, perhaps understandable, territoriality and desire for revenge. Also, *they* did show signs of nascent sapience. Besides, the old environmental argument is still valid: How do we know that they serve no purpose. Presumably, they serve the same purpose as cougars in Colorado or any other large predator (a population control). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:40:30 -0600 From: Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-BAYLOR.EDU To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.CO.UK Cc: Lynore_Belzer-+AT+-ccis01.baylor.edu Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: >Now be VERY careful Icewolf. The same thing has been said about >everything from coyotes (and WOLVES) to slaves and Jews and babies. >They are a pest, an annoyance, they were not meant to exist, they are >only good at destroying things. Geez, the same thing can be said for a >lot of people on the planet. Who are we to say what creatures god or >God wants here? I don't see any dinosaurs, but we did not make them go >away. Whales and dolphins and a fetus and a clone and a wolf may or may >not be useful at this time, it may not be convenient to have a jungle >where that oil pipeline is going but dammit, we don't have the onboard >processing power to quantify casual extinctions! Whoa there! Calm down! And please leave God out of the discussion: He doesn't exist in Velgarth, and I don't think he'd want it if we offered it to Him. He's got enough on his mind as it is. :) My point is A) this is NOT reality, and B) the extinctions are not casual. The non-dangerous stuff is allowed to exist, for example the Tree-house in _Oathbound_. Heck, the regularly dangerous stuff is allowed to exist so long as it poses no danger to people. I don't recall hearing about colddrake hunting parties (like people go deer hunting now). I guess what I was trying to justify was the destruction of members of species when people are at risk. Maybe I should have been more clear. Sorry. -Icewolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:44:48 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: marriage/scones & marmite/animal conservation Message-ID: <199703192049.PAA02193-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> Eliasiande wrote: >Wirh regard to the talk on Valdemar marriage - I always got the impression >that it wasn't that common - isn't there some such comment in Arrows >when Talia and Dirks ceremony is being organised, about it being unusual? >And has there ever been any mention of Elspeth marrying Darkwind? Or >Selenay marrying Whatsisface? Or Kero and Thingy? There was something >in the second Arrows when Talia and Kris were on circuit, a couple where >she was pregnant, but nothing specific mentioned. I think marriage is fairly common in Valdemar, probably even the norm. Holderkin marry (well, they practice polygamy, but it is still marriage, and apparently legal in Valdemar.) Remember, they were going to make Talia get married at the age of 13. Selenay marries Daren: "Whether the bedding had followed or preceded the wedding was moot; the result was twins..." [WoFate, ch. 1, p.14, US hardcover ed.] Sayvel tells Kero that the Skybolts are "taking bets on when the handfasting's going to be" between Kero and Eldan. [BTS, last page in any edition, I think] Before Elspeth, Darkwind, et al. go off into Hardorn to assassinate Ancar, Selenay tells Elspeth, "Come home, so I can celebrate your handfasting to that handsome young man who loves you so." [WoFury, ch. 13, p. 272, US harcover ed.] Mero and Gaytha get married -- that's part of the Collegium news Skif passes on to Kris and Talia during Talia's internship in AFlight. Teren was married before he was Chosen. The couple in AFlight, who are in fact married by Kris and Talia, are afraid the Heralds "will disapprove -- maybe even refuse to wed them -- because they left the formal ceremony so long. They should have wedded as soon as they knew she was with child..." This couple had been "year-and-day handfasted" to ensure the fertility of the union, but now that they are pregnant, their customs state that they must be formally married. They were also relieved that "now their firstborn would have no taint of illegitimacy about it." [quotes from AFlight, ch. 5, p. 307-308, SFBC omnibus ed. of _Queen's Own_] In fact, the last example makes it pretty clear that marriage (of some sort, but legal and binding) is the norm, not the exception, in Valdemar. People simply don't go around having babies without marrriage, at least not without raised eyebrows (except possibly among the Heralds.) Another example: when the retired Herald, Tedric, tells Kris and Talia about the Weatherwitch of Berrybay, he says, "...there was a young woman named Maeven in Berrybay who'd gone and had herself a Festival child -- that's a babe that no one will claim, and whose mother hasn't the faintest notion who the father might be. People being what they are, there was a certain amount of tsk-ing, and finger-pointing..." [ibid, p. 406] What made Talia and Dirk's wedding ceremony unusual was that it was a wedding between lifebonded; I got the impression that the ceremony is a little different since "the wedding of a lifebonded couple was less of a promissing than an affirmation." [AFall, ch. 12, p. 697, SFBC omnibus ed. of _Queen's Own_] ++++++++++++++++++++++Scones & Marmite+++++++ Jacquelle, you asked for the scone recipe, but due to a quirk of my email program, I don't know your address. Email me privately at jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net and I'll be happy to send it to you. Elisiande, I didn't mean to offend you about the Marmite! Personally, I couldn't stand the taste of it, but you're right; I didn't grow up on it. (I grew up on a nasty homemade concoction of brewers' yeast, milk, and eggs called tiger's milk, and frankly, I couldn't stand that either! ) I expect everyone has something they like which other people can't stand -- mine is warm milk with honey; reminds me of my childhood. Anyway, one double fudge and one Marmite sheep to you, by way of apology. :-) ++++++++++++++++++++Animal conservation+++++++ Icewolf, your comments on why wyrsa are hunted and destroyed are apt, and exactly what I was going to say. With one addition: in all the books, IIRC, no one has ever been near a wyrsa and not become one of it's targets. So I'd say there is a certain amount of self-defense in destroying them. The only way to "live and let live" with wyrsa is never to come across them at all. And of course, since they pose a distinct and definite threat to [other?] sentient species, it is reasonable that people would try to destroy any wyrsa found within or too near a populated area. (Destroying the wrysa may not be the ideal solution, but sometimes the only viable solution is far from ideal.) Wind to thy wings, all! Wish me luck in getting over this flu! Lady Sara, I hope your biopsy goes well. Kara "So many books, so little time" jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:28:35 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Lifebonds/reincarnations/memories Message-ID: <970319162827_-1672630349-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> Kara Said: >Crystal asked: > >>I wonder if lifebonding exists amongst the general population or just among >Heralds? I >know the book said it was rare among Heralds, and rarer >still in the general >>population, but there's been no evidence that non-Heralds bond like that. >Any thoughts? > >.I was about to say that I couldn't remember any non-Heraldic lifebonds, but >I'm not so sure...What about Tre'valen and Dawnfire, in the Winds books? >Tre'valen dreamed of her before he met her, and recognized her as his >soul-mate, which sounds like a lifebond to me. To quote: >"He had dreamed of this woman for years, ever since becoming a man. Since >he had been initiated as a shaman, the dreams had more power. He had >known >in the way of the shaman even then that this woman was his soul-partner, >and yet he had never seen her...Until she had first come to him on the >Moonpaths, this Dawnfire, this transformed Tale'edras. Until he had seen >*her* face, and not the hawk-mask of the Avatar." [WoChange, ch. 12, p. >224, US hardcover ed.] Don't forget about Amberdrake and his love(what was her name?) and the Halegi (sp?) said that such bonds were rare and that they were to be treasured thus impling that they do happen. And this was before Duke Valdamar was a glint in his father's eye. > Here's another question: What happens when a lifebonded, Heraldic couple > dies? If they choose to reincarnate as Companions, do they remain > lifebonded? I guess my real question is, does a lifebond survive death? As you said, there was Vanyel and Stefen/Tylendal who's bond servived death. And if that holds true i would then say that it would survive death. In the case that he/she came back as a companion they whould most likely not choose him/her cuz of complications. I would think that the life bond would servive and were ever it is that soles go in the end they would meat THat is only my Opinoion >And an additional question: am I right in assuming that Companions and >Firecats remember their previous lives, but that reincarnated humans do >not, or not consciously? Yes, so it would seem. I guess it would be because Fire Cats and Companions. are like the gods helper-people they would remember. and tell me this, can you not remeber even faint things you might have done in a past life? (That is if you belive in them here in this world) That raises another question. If I belive that when i die I will be reincarnated and someone else belives they will go to heaven, who goes where? Anyway back to the topic at hand. I think that humans shouldn't have any memories of a past life to cloud thier life ahead. Compainions and FireCats, on the other hand need to draw on thier life exspierience to advise thouse they bond to. I mean look at Gwena. If she had that to draw on she would be much better off. Zhai'hellava Sorry bout the length and bad spelling Stallion May the wolves of your desteny be just Blessed Be ::::Be OK:::: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:56:59 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <970319165457_-835312734-+AT+-emout13.mail.aol.com> Heyla As to all this stuff, I think that those wyrsa were killed cuz they would not let up. In silver gryphon The wyrsa would not stop hunting them. They had no choise but to kill them. It is the law of the wild, at least as I see. What did Kipling say? Kill to eat or to keep from being eaten. The Hawk-Brothers made it plane that they would only kill them if they begain to become a threat to the general populis. And it The Winds Trillogy When Skiff was fighting the wyrsa they had to kill them all. they would not run away. Given all this, I must say that the Wyrsa sould be left alone if they are not hearting anyone but beyond that, as they will not let up, they should be destroyd. (THe above is only my opinion) Zhai'hellava Stallion May the wolves of your desteny be just Blessed Be ::::Be OK:::: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:10:18 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians/lifebonds Message-ID: <1787DF75AF-+AT+-future.judson.edu> > Just a side note: has it struck anyone else as amusing and ironic that Kero > and Selanay, Eldan and Daren each end up lifebonding with the other's > ex-lover? > > >selenay and eldan were ex-lovers? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:08:52 -0500 From: SUS Guest Student To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Fluffish Message-ID: <333055E4.45E1-+AT+-po-box.mcgill.ca> This is just a quick note to tell anybody who might be wondering at my silence. No, I'm not fearing the wrath of being late for announcing birthdays or Acolytes. I have a much more legitimate excuse. My computer broke down. I had to re-install DOS. Then, just when I thought I had gotten everything fixed, the wall socket supplying power to my computer went dead. I am writing this mail on a machine which cannot access any of my mail, just send it. So, I won't be able to respond to e-mails until my 'puter is fixed. (Growl). Ah, well. Maybe it's just as well. I've had a lot of work come up upon me, not to mention breaking up with my gf over the weekend. I need a rest. Love, Deniz Sarikaya, High Priestess of Procrastination and all that jazz, whose real sig will appear when she can get her computer to turn on. If you're new to this list, send the following message to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk and winnow through the messages until you find NewbieFest: Part the First-Third... get mercedes-lackey 970128-1077 get mercedes-lackey 970127-1076 I hope that works... if it doesn't, well... somebody else might have them on their computers . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 15:50:33 -0700 From: Rob & Jody Edwards & Family To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <33306DB9.4FC6-+AT+-i-link.net> You said . . . > Well, despite the fact that it may merely be a misunderstanding on the > part of naturalists, many of the same points apply to weasels (they are > accidental, in that all evolutionary patterns are the result of random > mutation; they apparently kill for no apparent reason, or so I have been > told; and they are dangerous to other life-forms, if not to man). As for > the neo-wyrsa in SG, I don't know that they are malicious beyond a, > perhaps understandable, territoriality and desire for revenge. Also, > *they* did show signs of nascent sapience. Besides, the old environmental > argument is still valid: How do we know that they serve no purpose. > Presumably, they serve the same purpose as cougars in Colorado or any > other large predator (a population control). > >And I admit you have a point. I will swallow my pride and admit that the "evil" wyrsa could have been made by a mage who loved them as Urtho loved Kechara, but Urtho at least had the sense to keep Kechara in a place where she could not harm others or herself or be harmed by others. And remember that the gryphons were smart. They used logic. Kechara was a 'misborn'. But she also used logic. When she attacked Skan, it was because in her childlike mind she reasoned that Urtho must be hurt if the 'stranger' (Skan) came without him. (remember that Urtho was the only one who visited her.) The wyrsa on the other hand did not use the SAME KIND of logic. They operated on a pack instinct. They used logic, yes, but not reason. They posed a huge threat to all living things much the same way an illness like cancer. They killed to kill, not always to eat. How many wolves (not rabid) have you heard of doing this? Every time I have heard of ANY animals that did such a thing, th! e reation was to eliminate the animal. Would you want a pack of rabid wolves running around killing innocent people? Can you imagine how many people would be affected? The wyrsa were such. They had to be eliminated, or they would eliminate. You do have a point, though. No animal should be wiped out. I agree with that under one condition. That the animal in question will not wipe out anything itself. I don't mean to upset anyone. I hope SOMEone out there can see where I am coming from. Who knows, I could be wrong. Everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. -Jel'enedra (Jody Lynn) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:37:26 -0500 From: "Brian Sizemore" To: Subject: Re: to Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <199703192303.SAA14874-+AT+-ais.ais-gwd.com> > Nina said: > They're not like the gryphons, but they are sentient. After all, the wyrsa > did learn to adapt to whatever was thrown at them. And, (hoping I'm not > giving anything away here) remeber that mezmerizing trick they used by > moving in certain patterns (like a chain or something of that sort)? That > was a pretty good tactic, and not one a non-sentient creature could come up > with and execute. > I agee that they are sentient, however they seem to me to be pack animals. The impression that I got was that the oscillating/mesmerizing effect that they had were due to tahe their movements around each other. Pack animals mingle around like that all of the time. I agree that they are sentient, but I don't think the effect mentioned is really any proof. Just an opinion. Paradox ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Why do they call it the tourist season if we're not allowed to shoot them? # No matter what else you do in life, love another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:20:00 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: MERCEDES-LACKEY-+AT+-HERALD.CO.UK Subject: bye for now Message-ID: <18B1631672-+AT+-future.judson.edu> I'm off for spring break, so I'll see everyone when I get back at the beginning of april. BYE, WTTW, Jacquelle "You broke your little ships." Lily to Picard Star Trek: First Contact ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:39:42 -0700 From: Sunny Norwood To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Christians Message-ID: <01BC3484.2664D100-+AT+-analog-ts8-1.NMSU.Edu> oh, me too ---------- > I believe it was Shadowsong who asked if there were any other > Christians on the list--- > count me in on that! > Bright day, everyone! (even if it's raining where you are!) > Jacquelle begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(BP7`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!-+AT+-`(````Y 0```````#H``$--+AT+- 0` M`-+AT+-````(``-+AT+-`!!) &`$-+AT+-!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#-+AT+-`````"`?\/ M`0```%<`````````-+AT+-2L?I+ZC$!F=;-+AT+-#=`0]4`-+AT+-````!M97)C961E``,P`0```!T```!M97)C961E M``$P M`0```!\````G;65R8V5D97,M;&%C:V5Y0&AEA/!G%H'81T*=J1$535 `````>`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````$-+AT+-```'-N;W)W;V]D0&YM)S=&5M`H,SMP+D!Q,"-+AT+-S02S!3% M?0J BPC/"=D[%Y(Q,C-+AT+-7[ <6P0VB"V!N9S$P,U<44 L*%6(R$K!C`$ -+AT+-$&]H M+" '-+AT+-"!T;P9O"H4*BVQI,3-+AT+-PP0+1:2TQ-#0-\ S08&5V'-!I!4 ,=V$&01& M9&]WRB2`'!Y'' HYOC2\`4 `"## ZK>YOC2\`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ` %````S+T` ` end ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:47:12 -0500 From: cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: love/sentience/wyrsa Message-ID: <33307B00.27A3-+AT+-spectra.net> JAIME HATHAWAY wrote: > > > Just a side note: has it struck anyone else as amusing and ironic that Kero > > and Selanay, Eldan and Daren each end up lifebonding with the other's > > ex-lover? > > > > > >selenay and eldan were ex-lovers? Selenay and Daren were lifebonded .... I don't think there was any evidence of Kero and Eldan being the same. The only thing that bothered me about the whole lifebonding thing was that it's supposed to be a rare thing, but then a huge majority of the characters end up being lifebonded. I prefer to think of Kero and Eldan simply finding the kind of love that two people who are meant to be together can share. I don't know that Selenay and Eldan were lovers ... they were good friends, yes ... and might have shared an evening or two together ... I really don't remember any text that will say for sure. I'm curious as to what everyone's definition of sentience is? It seems to be a major argument that the wyrsa should be left alone. As for my own two cents on the subject ... I don't feel that any creature that can be summoned by a mage for the task of killing can be regarded as something to be left alone unless it hurts you. Here's a question ... in the HM series ... were the wyrsa described as being sexless? I remember something described like that ... if it was the wyrsa I wonder how they were able to procreate in SG. Hmmmm... if only I could find my books I could look up the answers myself... Crystal -- ---------Christopher J. Kocher-------Crystal D. Sarakas-------- ----------------------cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net--------------------- "Would anybody like to write a song with me now? A line at a time?" - Ray Davies, during a CompuServe chat "It is appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed our humanity." - Albert Einstein -------Ask about ordering information for "Ninth Aspect"------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:27:48 -0600 From: Jennifer Dorn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: speculation/lifebonds etc.... Message-ID: <199703192331.RAA81722-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 03:02 PM 3/19/97 GMT, Christi wrote: >only hear about it through the heralds, mages, Shamans etc... because >that is what is written about. According to speculation, Amberdrake and >Winterhart were lifebonded(?) although it was never said straight out. Actually, it's not just speculation. When Winterhart is proposed to by the Haileigh king in WGryphon, whats-his-name the truth speaker tells the king she is lifebonded to Amberdrake. They had a different name for it that basically implied a lifebond... something that meant "sacred bonding" or something. The haileigh saw it as a gift from the gods. I wish I had my book with me... Does someone have the textevd? BTW, I saw someone mention it, but Why am I getting all my messages out of order? I got the answer to the trivia question before I got the trivia question. That's not the worst of it either. Something is screwy.... Wind to thy wings, Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1140 **********************************