MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1142 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) not again by Sunny Norwood 2) RE: HISTORY LESSON!!!!! by Megan Schreiber 3) Re: Evil fantasy by Bethany Weber 4) Re: Christianity & fantasy by Erik Wayne McKee 5) lotsa stuff by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> 6) Re: Christian/Terry Prachett/chess by Brian Bennett 7) John and Kara asked: by Barbara Slater 8) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 9) Christian fantasy by Ailsa Reid 10) Re: hrmph? by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 11) Re: marriage/scones & marmite/animal conservation by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 12) Re: Christians/lifebonds by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 13) Re: Christians/evil fantasy by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 14) Re: Christians/evil fantasy by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 15) Re: Christians/evil fantasy by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 16) Re: HISTORY LESSON!!!!! by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 17) Re: Christian fantasy by MELVIN NEVERGOLD 18) Re: SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP by "Vrondi" 19) Re: Sunny Norwood's attachment by "Vrondi" 20) RE: HISTORY LESSON!!!!! by "Vrondi" 21) New book! "The Free Bards" by "Vrondi" 22) Braid: by Renee Mic Markowicz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:08:58 -0700 From: Sunny Norwood To: "'Mail List-M.Lackey'" Subject: not again Message-ID: <01BC34CB.4AF35E00-+AT+-analog-ts8-5.NMSU.Edu> Second screw up, sorry. I'm giving up. Its late, I'm annoying, time for bed mayhaps. -Sunny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 01:10:30 -0700 From: Megan Schreiber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: HISTORY LESSON!!!!! Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970320081030.006b5230-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu> At 07:42 AM 3/20/97 +0000, you wrote: >Agreed. Besides, as Christians, you are made aware that you are born with >sin, so hey, you can't be perfect in the first place. There is not one Ah-ah...not quite. Not as -Christians-, necessarily. I'm Christian, as stated in an earlier post. However, according to my religion people aren't born in sin. That's a religion-specific thing, not a part of Christianity as a whole. >religion or nonreligion lifestyle that can claim perfection, explained by >the saying - you can't please everyone all the time...blahblah. No flames >from me. History can be ugly. Some people say America's great and >perfect, but the good ol' land has had her fare share of slavery, murder, >and injustice. Just about -everything- has a bad thing in its past somewhere, be it religion, country, or other organization. People are flawed, therefore things run by people have flaws inherent within them. >Some people like to point out flaws in things because they disagree. Some >people will go as far as bashing the ideas of something. All too often >"good Christians and their good views" are pushed aside whenever an >overzealous or mislead Christian comes along. Again, that's just someone Yes, I know. I've run into a lot of people who like to bash my religion...often they like to generalize about Christians being 'witch-burning' and 'murderous' and 'hypocritical' and all those good things. The acts of the noisy few are more remembered than the quiet majority. It gets annoying after a while. ********* Aili wrote: >I am an ex-christian and I guess I left my church when they were so >anti-gay. I am not talking about fundamentalists here either. With >apologies to the mormon members here - but my sister who follows that road >told me and believes that homosexuality is worse than murder! So you can >imagine how she treats me. off and back on track> Ack, someone said that to you?!?! Let me apologize to you...homosexuality isn't worse than murder, last time I heard. But that's beside the point. Just because someone is living a lifestyle in which you personally don't believe, that's absolutely -NO- excuse to persecute them. Mormons should know that, especially. The commandment has always been to -love- your neighbor, not scream at them because they do something you think is 'sinful'. One man's sinful is another man's commonplace. Note: I'm not condoning anything. Just saying that just because -I- believe one way, I'm not going to force everyone else to believe that way, as well. Free agency is a wonderful thing. Wyvern http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib Megan Schreiber mschreib-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib ~ Member, Guild of Invertebrate Liars ~ Motto: "So I'm spineless, so slug me." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:14:17 -0600 (CST) From: Bethany Weber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Evil fantasy Message-ID: I've never had problems with people telling me fantasy was evil. Once my Grandmother (who was, incedentally, going through a convert-the-Protestant-granddaughter-to-Catholicism phase) told me that fantasy and Star Trek would make me lose touch with reality. Boy, was she mad when I told her they were no less realisitc than the soaps she watched. :) Once the owner of a gift store in Denver that sells a lot of dragon merchandice told me about a religious group that used to meet in a nearby store, which would come over and inform her that selling dragons was a form of Satan worship. I guess that makes a certian sort of convoluted sense... dragons are a symbol of Satan in the Bible, ergo books that deal with dragons (esp. in a positive light) deal with Satan. I also used to know a girl who felt that playing Magic was a form of Satan worship (or at least, leading down the path to Satanism) becuase the cards referred to "demon-summoning." So again, any books that deal with demons and monsters of any form are dealing with Satan (in some eyes.) Reading some of the Christian arguements against D&D on the Web, I would guess that working magic is also considered a form of (you guessed it) Satan worship by some fundamentalists. My personal guess is that some people's problems with fantasy have little to do with problems with homosexuality (how many people who hadn't read fantasy would even know some of the books dealt with the topic?) and a LOT to so with (we all chant in chorus) Satan Worship. (Goddess worship would, of course, fall into this category for some people. Or at least, worshipping falso gods.) However, I try to put as much distance between me and fundamentalist Christians as possible. (Campus Crusade for Christ... brrr...) So I could be totally mistaken. (Do I need an OBMisty? Here's one: When I read Burning Water, I was struck by how much Di Trgarde hated Christianity -- and for no better reason than some Christians would hate her. IMHO, of course.) Bethany Weber ------------------Official Weredragon of Rice University------------------- "The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination." -Garak, DS9, "Improbable Cause." But reality is *always* an excuse for lack of imagination. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Dragon etiquette is incredibly complicated, and if you make a mistake, the dragon eats you." -- Patricia C. Wrede, _Talking to Dragons_ ------------------http://www.owlnet.rice.edu:80/~bethany/------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:43:20 -0600 (CST) From: Erik Wayne McKee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christianity & fantasy Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Ailsa n'ha Winifreyda wrote: > What I have found with fantasy novels, especially those of Sheri Tepper, > Patricia Keneally and an Aussie author I keep raving about - Sara Douglass, > actually explore the nature of religion & faith in innovative fashions. Of > course, others like CS Lewis and Tolkien have used the genre to reinforce > the christian ethos. Interesting comment. If I remember aright, Tolkien had one major Diety, Illuvatar, and several other subdieties and nature spirits in his works. One could almost make a case for this being a rather pagan pantheon. C. S. Lewis on the other hand, who was a Christian Theologian, did fill the _Chronicles_of_Narnia_ with Christian symbolism. However he sorta implies at the end of _The_Last_Battle_ (the scene where the Calormene is in Aslan's country and is asking Aslan why he is there instead of with Tash) that your particular religion doesn't matter, you will still be fairly rewarded/punished for the deeds during your life. Sorry for the fluffiness of the reply, but I just happened to think of these comments at 3:30 am, and they seemed useful for procrastinating going to bed so that I can get some sleep before my 9:35 am class. Additional comments welcome, possibly even wanted. At least the C.S. Lewis part has been floating around in my brain pretty much since I discovered Paganism. Bright Blessings Erik #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 02:10:01 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: lotsa stuff Message-ID: Companion speed / Blue Heart (no spoilers) / Van & Stef / lifebonding / wyrsa / Newbiefest / Mage Storms cause Sorry this is so long; I've had ISP problems and want to get this all out before it crashes again. ****** A bit ago Esme said on the topic of Yfandes Fetching herself, "I accept that Yfandes is the only one we hear of doing this, but doesn't she also do it at the beginning of Magic 2 or 3, when Van is crawling back to Haven, totally knackered, on an equally knackered 'Fandes?[snip] Then the circumstances were simply that they were both cold, tired to the bone and wanting to be home." That was at the end of Van's diplomatic mission to Rethwellen in MPrice. Yfandes made the road go by fast that time because she leaped the fence and galloped directly across the fields; the road itself went in a huge loop and would have taken an extra hour. No fetching necessary. And then Van blanked out between the city gates and the Palace-Collegium complex gates, so if she'd Fetched them there he wouldn't have noticed. I don't think she did, though; iirc, Yfandes also went numb between the ears from the moment they reached the city (there was something about her walking mechanically and nearly bumping into something?) ****Blue Heart** Some time ago Kara wrote a rationalization for how there could be a Herald that only Selenay and a few others knew was a Herald...What you said. I was thinking along those lines, but not so thouroughly. ****Van & Stef** A while ago little alex asked, "How long did Stef and Van last? Excluding the fact that they became ghosts and stuff, starting on the night when Van admitted his love and made love to (with) Stef, how long did their relationship last? 'cause I was doing arithmatic on how old Stef and Van were, and their ages fluctuates a bit." Well, they met in early spring at 35 and 17, and returned from Forst Reach in the autumn, by which time Van had to be 36 (he turned 16 during his summer with Lendel). Van died in the winter. Stef tried to follow in the summer (I think it was summer, anyway). His age is a bit uncertain; he could have been 18, or considered 18, at any point in MPrice depending on where you want to place his birthday (his actual one, or the one that Van picked in order to give him Melody.) Textevd? I could go find some, if you really want. The way I figured it, Van & Stef had maybe two months after Savil died (one full month of that was spent with the kyree), two (? textevd said exactly how long the diplomatic mission was) months apart before that, three months at Haven before that, and an indefinite period of time at Forst Reach (a month?)--in total, maybe as much as seven months (my love of nice year-fractions makes me want to say six is most likely) passed between the bolt-the-door-and-kiss-him scene and Van's death. Ah, law of Threefold Returns? If it was six months, that'd mean that Stef got six months of Van to match Van's two months of Lendel. No, wait, now somebody's going to pop up with textevd that Lendel had more than two months together. Oh well, another tidy theory blown to smithereens. ****lifebonding** little alex said, "Even if Stef can be counted as a non-Herald, he is a Gifted Bard, and therefore, have at least some sort of empathic abilities. As Vanyel had said, Bardic Gift is close enough to Empathy that Vanyel can send a pulse of love to Stef and have Stef be able to catch it." I remember that part. I'd always interpreted it as meaning, not that Stef could *catch* the pulse of love due to his Gift, but rather that he would recognize it for what it was. I think Bardic Gift is a special form of Projective Empathy. " For example, how he know almost all the details surrounding Tylendel's death (I didn't, for a moment, think the explaination Stef gave as possible. You know, the one that Savil explained it)." I think Savil and Stef did have a conversation about Lendel's death, and it may have resonated with some of Stef's unconscious memories of things Lendel knew, like about magic--"Savil must have been the one to tell me about the storm the night Lendel died, because there was all this technical stuff about energy fields and how magic works," a passage that immediately calls to my mind the scene where Lendel reads the weather-working pamphlet, on the Night of Drama when he finally get's through Van's defenses. Kara said,"[snip Van's Gifted-and-suicidal theory of lifebonding] That certainly suggests that whether someone has a lifebonded partner somewhere in the world is less random and more the determination of the gods[snip]" I'd think it'd be a sign that lifebonding is *less* a determination of the gods, at least on an individual level. On the larger scale, maybe They decided the rule for lifebonding is that it would go to the people most in need. "[snip]Van himself certainly fall into the Gifted-but-subject-to-depression category (as, come to think of it, did Tylendel once his brother was dead. But in that case, both had depressive tendencies, and even if 'Lendel didn't, 'Lendel had the Gifts but Van had the depression.)[snip]" There is not enough evidence for saying whether Shavri & Randale fit Van's theory; I say the same for Selenay & Darren, Tre'valen and Dawnfire, Cinnabar & Tamsin, and Kero and Eldan, too. (Kero didn't seem depressive, but Eldan could have been.) As for Van and Lendel--I don't think we get the whole story on Lendel; I think he is rather broody. ("Van wouldn't suicide; he's not the type. Now, *me*--never mind.") And I'd like to make a case that Van did have active Gifts when he and Lendel lifebonded. Savil checked Van for Gifts when he was fourteen; he got checked again when he came to Haven at near-16, but that time only for Bardic Gift. In the first chapter of MPawn, Van sees Withen's aura for a moment, and later he *starts having his Foresight dream about Leareth even before he and Lendel become lovers*. Van's Gifts could have been awakening, just a teeny bit, and late--maybe not even enough for him to come to the Companions' notice, but enough to increase his odds of lifebonding. Then Staven died--could that have also had some small effect on his channels? And Tylendel was certainly unstable after that... ****wyrsa** Nina said of wyrsa, "They're not like the gryphons, but they are sentient. After all, the wyrsa did learn to adapt to whatever was thrown at them. And, (hoping I'm not giving anything away here) remeber that mezmerizing trick they used by moving in certain patterns (like a chain or something of that sort)? That was a pretty good tactic, and not one a non-sentient creature could come up with and execute." Actually, all sorts of non-sentient creatures can come up with neat tactics. Butterflies, for example--certain kinds of butterflies evade predators by suddenly going into a totally random (and therefore unpredicatable) flight pattern. I'm not sure if there is anything so-called sentients do that non-sentients can't. I'm no zoologist, though. ****Newbiefest** Deniz wrote instructions for how to get the Newbiefest--I have it. If you need it and can't get it using Deniz's method, write me privately and I'll send it along. ****History** In response to Jayson on religious history, Dana said, "Oh well... Bye the way, everybody who believes in something can go back in time and say this or that religious leader was a perverted murdering sick creep with delusions of godhood." I've heard there was a Taoist Emporer of China who started a convert-or-die war. and, "Why is it that we Christians beat ourselves up over this so much more than anyone else?" Do you? Jayson said, "How many people know the history of the church? [snip] Again these are just my opinions backed with history courses and stuff so be patient. Please? IS there anybody who agrees?" ?? What set this off? Not that I'm disputing your account of history (I've heard the same stuff), but what is this doing on the list? Last I noticed of the Xtianity thread, people were simply declaring themselves. (Oh, and talking about Xtian views on sf/f. But people were pretty clearly stating that it's close-mindedness that causes the trouble, not Xtianity itself, so I was happy.) And when you start writing potentially flame-attractant posts, isn't is time to stop a moment and say, Hey, why am I doing this? My point is, this is offtopic. I am not Christian and I am not against religious discussions-- history, ethics, monotheology vs. polytheology, whatever, but I shudder in horror when somebody starts getting ...controversial is not the word I want, here, but it'll have to do... and in this case it's a controversy that doesn't even have to be here. You didn't offend mightily, Jayson--I apologize for jumping, but you hit a raw nerve. In November shortly after I joined the list, I saw a nasty, flamish situation build up until it spilled out into flames against people who made minor offenses, and folk left this list--some of them permanently, most of them disappointed, several of them angry, and some for the purpose of penance--and ever since then I've been allergic to posts that might start up another Great Debate. Mostly people are pretty good at being polite here. I like that; I like you folks. I don't want to see people getting mad at each other. Avoiding a fight starts with people being cautious about their posts *before* anybody gets hurt feelings. Having a good religious discussion without destroying a friendship can take some work and commitment. If you had sat down and started complaining about church history at the dinner table, I'd either chime in, argue with you, or tell you I didn't want to talk about it; anyone else could do the same. They could, in other words, stop the discussion to prevent themselves from hearing things that would upset them (you could call it close-mindedness, or you could call it self-understanding put into responsible action--knowing oneself well enough to avoid a fight.) We don't have that opportunity here. Once you start to read post, you tend to read the rest of it, and then respond to it... We don't discuss everything on this list. Those who want to discuss religion are probably hanging out on alt.religion.[whatever]. And I don't like to see anybody badmouthing anybody's religion (even if it's your own, and on good historical grounds) unless it's in a situation where _everybody involved knows what they're getting into_. I've said the same things about Christianity/the Church, but I said them to people who started the topic with me, and who could (and did) interrupt me to tell me when I stepped over the line. Is this a flame? I hope not. A large part of it is pent-up frustration from watching people miscommunicate on a regular basis. It seemed to me that Jayson was almost "begging" for another one. I hope that anybody who found that message's content upsetting could just take a pass on perpetuating any nastiness they may feel they've received, and communicate with him privately and politely about any disagreements / whatever. Now I'm going to jump down off this soapbox, throw you some sheep as sacrifice and distraction, and hide behind the Goddess of Running Away and Hiding Under Tables, whose penchant for concealment I suddenly sympathise with a great deal. ****Mage Storms cause** [snip Kristin's theory that Darren caused the MageStorms to come back] Wow. I was tempted to say, No way! at first, but then I thought about it some more...if you say that Darren's command "put everything back the way it was" was like the pebble that starts an avalanche, and that the land can "remember" so far back, and that the avalanche could take years to build up between the first sign (the Hardornen farmers getting their minds back) and the second sign (the first wave of the Storm) ...yeah, it's plausible. I doubt Misty would do it, but it could work. --be well-- *~the Eternally Nourished Lee, Lady Knight of the OAM and OOPS, Spreader of Humor, Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"~* <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> or Meta Geek Code: !gc (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:06:11 -0800 From: Brian Bennett To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christian/Terry Prachett/chess Message-ID: <33317C93.65F9-+AT+-erinet.com> > Kara wrote: > > > Now I've got a question: Has anyone on this list run into the idea, held > > by some non-Christians and fundamental Christians alike, that Christians > > don't or shouldn't read fantasy? Yes, I am a Christian and yes I have heard this idea. My mother holds this view quite strongly and vocally. She quotes the verse that says,"As a man thinketh in his heart so is he." She then proceeds with a tirade about how reading fantasy will make me demon possessed. Thank goodness I don't live at home anymore. My personal view is that if you can't read and think about other ideas without having your faith rocked, it isn't very solid in the first place. Reading Misty's books has really helped me to have more compassion for gay people. I may not like someone's lifestyle but that doesn't give me a right to treat them like dirt. They have feelings and emotions just like me. Anyway, that's my two pence worth. BTW thanks to all who recommended Terry Prachett's books. They are hilarious. I gift all of you with little octarine sheep. ObMisty: Does anyone on Velgarth play chess or similar games? ShadowWolf, God of Stupid Chess Moves "Checkmate" -- Garry Kasparov ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 08:29:52 -0500 From: Barbara Slater To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: John and Kara asked: Message-ID: John and Kara asked: Here's another question along the same lines: Do lifebonds come about by chance? Or are they the direct result of divine intervention/interference/predestination/determination? My .02 on the subject: I know that in the Arrows trilogy, the lifebonding between Dirk and Talia seemed to happen instantaneously; he was the first Herald she saw, and he seemed to be unaware of the significance of the meeting. In tLHM, Sayvil was thunderstruck to discover that Van wasn't succumbing to the leechblade as fast as he might have because he had gone and lifebonded to Stef. The first example implies that lifebonds cannot be chosen, the second one does. I don't know, maybe the bonding is chosen on some level the first time, and then seems to happen 'by magic' if reincarnation of the partners puts them in the same lifetimeperiod. This is the only way I've been able to rationalize how Misty treats the lifebond in her stories. Comments? Lani Hunter, LotPW Murphy's Monster The Master of Disaster http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8268 slaterb-+AT+-musc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:39:22 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: Yes, but The wrysa were quite frankly tring to kill them and anything that fast with that much natural armorment is not helpless. If it tries to kill you you kill it. Melvin Nevergold On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, DC Kincaid wrote: > Now be VERY careful Icewolf. The same thing has been said about > everything from coyotes (and WOLVES) to slaves and Jews and babies. > They are a pest, an annoyance, they were not meant to exist, they are > only good at destroying things. Geez, the same thing can be said for a > lot of people on the planet. Who are we to say what creatures god or > God wants here? I don't see any dinosaurs, but we did not make them go > away. Whales and dolphins and a fetus and a clone and a wolf may or may > not be useful at this time, it may not be convenient to have a jungle > where that oil pipeline is going but dammit, we don't have the onboard > processing power to quantify casual extinctions! > > Seriously pissed off at destroying helpless Wyrsa!! Fast Fashion... > god-determined protector of unnatural things and small furry animals... > http://www.oaktree.net/angel1 > Porsche, there is no substitute. > mobilis in mobili > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:42:19 GMT From: Ailsa Reid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Christian fantasy Message-ID: <199703201442.OAA00571-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk> Various people have been saying about assorted Christians disapproving of fantasy. Sort of with that, my sister and her best friend are _definitely_ Christians. They are also live action roleplayers :> (Fools and Heros, my sister was the first female city guard for Oxeneforde). I've seen them come in late Saturday after playing, and then go to church on Sunday in their roleplaying gear. They're fairly strong believers, seeing as my sis got herself christened and confirmed, and her friend is currently doing a theology degree! Just to remind people there are a _few_ sensible ones out there :> Ailsa the alien, beloved of Lemming the fluffy ____________________________________________________________________________ | Ailsa Reid areid-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk | | "What a night though it's one of seven, | | What a night for the dancing dead," | | (_Les Morts Dansent_ by Magnum) | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:43:02 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: hrmph? Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, John and Kara Pekar wrote: I'm getting some of these two and three times and I'm sure they are not just responses Melvin nevergold > Crys wrote: > > >Many apologies for the short post ... but is anyone else getting the > >posts all out of order? I'm also a bit curious as to whether my posts > >have shown up .. they haven't come back to me... weirdness is afoot > >... :) I'm also curious as to how many others are > having similar difficulties. In my case, I'm getting posts in mixed order, > not getting some of my own back, and getting others of my own back days or > even a week after I sent them. (Other people responded to them, so > apparently they got to the list, just not back to me.) Oh -- make sure you > set the listproc to "acknowledge" so the listserver knows to send your > messages back -- the FAQ Mel sent out some weeks ago tells how. If you > don't have a copy of the FAQ, it's on the webpage or you can email me > direct -- I kept my copy. > > (I sent this to the whole list so others who might need the address or FAQ > could know where to find it.) > > Kara > "So many books, so little time" > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:52:58 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: marriage/scones & marmite/animal conservation Message-ID: Elspeth and Darkwind were married according to His customs which amount to him offering her a feather from his bondbird and her accepting it. Melvin Nevergold Dazed and Confused > Eliasiande wrote: > > >Wirh regard to the talk on Valdemar marriage - I always got the impression > >that it wasn't that common - isn't there some such comment in Arrows > >when Talia and Dirks ceremony is being organised, about it being unusual? > >And has there ever been any mention of Elspeth marrying Darkwind? Or > >Selenay marrying Whatsisface? Or Kero and Thingy? There was something > >in the second Arrows when Talia and Kris were on circuit, a couple where > >she was pregnant, but nothing specific mentioned. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:56:10 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians/lifebonds Message-ID: Eldan said "I got to know this little bit named selenay pretty well." He never said they were lovers. Melvin Nevergold I think about different things than you do. On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, JAIME HATHAWAY wrote: > > Just a side note: has it struck anyone else as amusing and ironic that Kero > > and Selanay, Eldan and Daren each end up lifebonding with the other's > > ex-lover? > > > > > >selenay and eldan were ex-lovers? > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:01:45 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians/evil fantasy Message-ID: How about the one that all those fantasy books are going to slowly turn you in to some kind of witch or warlock (insert your favorite term here) Melvin Nevergold Some people have no sense of reality. On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Vrondi wrote: > > "John and Kara Pekar" wrote: > > > Now I've got a question: Has anyone on this list run into the idea, held > > by some non-Christians and fundamental Christians alike, that Christians > > don't or shouldn't read fantasy? Or that if you do read fantasy, you must > > not be, or can't be, Christian? I find such a view to be nearly > > incomprehensible, but I come across it a lot here in rural Virginia (from > > the fundamental Christians.) It's very annoying. > > well, here is rural West Virginia, I have come across the same > things. My favourite is when someone tries to convince me that all > that evil stuff I'm reading is just going to build up somewhere in my > brain until it turns me evil unawares. At least that one is > creative. > ________________________________________________________________ > -Vrondi > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:09:25 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians/evil fantasy Message-ID: FYI--- The science fiction book club notates that LHM contain offesive subject matter. The offesive matter being that Vanyel is shaych (homosexual) openly even through the ""love scenes"" constist of no more than an inferment that they were going to have sex. On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Jay wrote: I think it would be foolish to think > that fantasy such as stuff like The Last Herald Mage would be evil. I > am a christian and I read a lot of fiction. Its not sinning. I'd like > someone to show me where it says in the bible that reading fiction is > wrong. Frankly, I never saw the 11th commandmant stating : Thou > shalt not read fiction! Frankly it just depends on the reader. > Anybody saying that this fiction is evil or we are evil for reading > it is just a bit to self-rightous and arrogant. THEY may not agree > with the views. Untill we go up, we will never know. By stating that > fiction is evil,wouldn't that be putting words in the mouth of the > almight? Now that is wrong. Sorry for my Rant. I just couldn't stay > quiet any longer. Anybody offended? Sorry if you where, but thats > the way it goes. And anybody thinking I'm a sinner for reading stuff > like the Harald mage stories, I laugh at you for your foolishness and > stupidity. Sorry, what can I say? I'm a sinner.......... > Any body agree with us? > > Jayson > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:19:54 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians/evil fantasy Message-ID: If you haven't walked into that attude you probably haven't attended a "Word" or a fundie chrisamatic (can;t spelll) church although being mormon you normally wpouldn't. Melvin Nevergold A prevaling attude just hasn't been laughed at enough!! On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Megan Schreiber wrote: > *waves a hand* Me, me, I'm a Christian. : ) I'm a Mormon, to be exact. And > about this reading fantasy thing...I've never run into any problems with it. > I'm sure there are Mormons out there who believe reading fantasy is evil, > etc...but not that I've met. I asked a friend of mine about this (same > religion) and she said she'd never even known people thought that. So...draw > conclusions as you will. > > > Wyvern > http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:22:56 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: HISTORY LESSON!!!!! Message-ID: Religion is the organization of faith not the essance of it. Melvin Nevergold On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Jay wrote: Yeah other groups > where just as bad, And the church is a good thing. But it isn't the > perfect religion. > > O.k to summ it up here is a neat quote. " Faith is a gift from god, > Church is man made" > > Again these are just my opinions backed with history courses and > stuff so be patient. Please? IS there anybody who agrees? > > *putting my flame resistant clothing on* > > The sinner that I am, > Jayson > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:31:27 -0500 (EST) From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christian fantasy Message-ID: The church my mother took me to when I was 5 would gadly burn your friends at a steak or even as a steak before hteir role paying detached them from God and sanity. Melvin Nevergold Thinking is like anything else --learn how before you do.On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Ailsa Reid wrote: > Various people have been saying about assorted Christians disapproving of > fantasy. > Sort of with that, my sister and her best friend are _definitely_ Christians. > They are also live action roleplayers :> (Fools and Heros, my sister was the > first female city guard for Oxeneforde). I've seen them come in late Saturday > after playing, and then go to church on Sunday in their roleplaying gear. > They're fairly strong believers, seeing as my sis got herself christened and > confirmed, and her friend is currently doing a theology degree! > Just to remind people there are a _few_ sensible ones out there :> > > Ailsa the alien, beloved of Lemming the fluffy > ____________________________________________________________________________ > | Ailsa Reid areid-+AT+-brookes.ac.uk | > | "What a night though it's one of seven, | > | What a night for the dancing dead," | > | (_Les Morts Dansent_ by Magnum) | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:39:28 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP ! SHEEP Message-ID: <199703201543.KAA12479-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> > Tried to get to your site by the address you quoted, but my system says it is > a damaged or unreadable file. Could you check it please?? My current screen > saver is Catz which is cute enough, but I'd love a new one. okay, first. Is whatever web browser you are using set up to _save_ .exe files? Or you can try this. Go to this web page: http://edweb.concord.wvnet.edu/~deanca/me there is a link to the sheep program near the bottom of the page. If you are using Netscape you can hold down SHIFT when you click on the link, then Netscape will know you want to save the file, and won't try to look at it. I hope that helps! I re-checked everything, and the file is there, and valid now. -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:46:01 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sunny Norwood's attachment Message-ID: <199703201549.KAA12512-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> Sunny Norwood wrote: > Guess what this is!!??!! More stuff for the freakin project huh?!?! what was that thingie you attached to that message? I thought it was basic list policy to avoid attachments! please only send atachments to the person who requests them! off-list! -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:54:25 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: HISTORY LESSON!!!!! Message-ID: <199703201558.KAA12705-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> > >Agreed. Besides, as Christians, you are made aware that you are born with > >sin, so hey, you can't be perfect in the first place. There is not one > > Ah-ah...not quite. Not as -Christians-, necessarily. I'm Christian, as > stated in an earlier post. However, according to my religion people aren't > born in sin. That's a religion-specific thing, not a part of Christianity as > a whole. Same here! When I was a child I asked my parents, (father was deacon of our tiny church) what would happen if a baby died. Well, the answer was, that a baby hadn't ever done anyhting except for want it mommy, and it's food, and it's warm blanket, and maybe some snuggling, so of course the baby would go to heaven! It had done nothing wrong to anyone. I was also taught that baptism should only come when one was older and could make a conscious decision abou their life. So, not all Christians believe in origional sin. And before you ask what denomination, none. we were a small county independant church. rather on the holy-roller side, but pretty good people. gee, that's more than enough! sorry that was so long! -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:56:48 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: New book! "The Free Bards" Message-ID: <199703201600.LAA12728-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> Sorry for this one-liner, but I thought you all might want to know. Amazon books just notified me that they have a new Misty book entitled "The Free Bards". http://www.amazon.com -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 11:07:45 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid: Message-ID: I'm sorry if some of these are out of date, it's been a bit since I could sit down and respond to anything. :) Elizabeth Cameron wrote: >>A music comment, inspired by my signature. Did anyone else notice that on the tape they changed a word of the song Threes? It turned from "Your sister at your side" to "Your shieldmate at your side." And that was not a Leslac error. It was in the book as sister. I think that's it.<< Yup. I noticed. They did that with a couple of other songs as well. "Windrider Unchained" has some words changed also. In some cases, it may have been that the original words didn't fit in well with the melody, or maybe Misty just decided that she liked the new words better. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Saddest Scene/Savil's Death: (I think Nightsong wrote this?) >like that. She deserved a lot better. 'Course, I was also angry at Van >for not believing her and letting Stef make him disregard his intuition >(AND 'Fandes') that the deaths weren't accidental. I don't really think that's a fair assessment. Remember, Savil wanted Van to strengthen her wards, but after her death, when Van checked the wards, _they hadn't been broken_. The construnct got in _before_ she even set her wards - Van's strengthening them wouldn't have helped. He probably thought that a lifetime of watching over her back for an enemy had made Savil quick to think someone was after her. A perfectly logical response which had an unfortunately tragic result. What else could he have done? Spent the night in her room? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't remember who said this: >>course, this doesn't explain why Jisa didn't have a Companion "friend", so that she could begin her Heraldic training.)<< Jisa didn't have a Companion "friend" because it would have been unnecessary, she was already being trained in her gifts. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Esmerelda wrote: >>Well, I started WG again the other day - had half and hour to kill, so began at the beginning .... - I'm not sure why it's so unliked by so many. (on second thoughts, I now doubt one can unlike something - what's that damn verb .................... DISlike - right, knew unlike didn't sound right ......) - I'm not sure why it's so disliked by so many. There's actually nothing wrong with it - except that there's no sympathetic main character - no Talia, or Karal, or Darkwind (not that he's *that* sympathetic) - ML didn't get us rooting for anyone, whereas in Arrows, you cared about Talia, wanted her happy, and it's why we are all grembling about the lack of Talia in the later books. Having said that, I think WG isn't that bad, and might even shell out and buy SG, accepting that it's a different sort of ML.<< I think her main sympathetic characters were still supposed to be Skandranon and Amberdrake, and maybe Zhaneel and Winterhart, as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Crystal said: >>isn't like my last question on the subject ) I wonder if lifebonding exists amongst the general population or just among Heralds? I know the book said it was rare among Heralds, and rarer still in the general population, but there's been no evidence that non-Heralds bond like that. Any thoughts?<< In Winds of Fury, Stefen explains the nature of lifebonds to Nyara and Skif. He says that they are basically to provide the "gifted, but suicidal [one with suicidal tendencies anyway] half of the bond with a stable partner to balance them". If this were true all or most of the time, then it's logical that lifebonds wouldn't occur as often in the general population - there aren't as many "gifted, yet suicidal" people in the general pop. as there are among the Heralds or the Tayledras or etc. :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Erik wrote: >ps. Deniz, how goes procrastination on that naming ceremony for us >fellow procrastinators that Mat delagated to you for further >procrastination? Hmmm? More potential Acolytes/Disciples/something-or-others? I'm feeling a bit behind. :( Been too busy procrastinating, I guess. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kara said: >has a really rich taste to begin with.) (I have a scone recipe I'll be >happy to share, if you want to email me privately:jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net) Out of curiousity - what's a scone? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Shadowsong delivered a couple of questions: >>Memory: Did Stef remember his life as both 'Lendel and Stefan or What? Lifebonds: Can non-humans have lifebonds?<< Stefan didn't remember his life as 'Lendel, at least not consciouscly I think that non-humans can have lifebonds, the intelligent ones anyway (ie.-kyree, gryphons (Treyvan and Hydona or Skan and Zhaneel could have been lifebound - just a guess on my part, no supporting textevd.), or hertasi (who are insatiable matchmakers)). If they are the equal of humans in all other respects (intellegence, Gifts, etc.), then they should have the same privileges in terms of love and relationships. And aren't Skif and Nyara lifebound? I know that the don't actually say it, but Stefan goes through that whole bit about explaining lifebonds and what they're gonna be in for - why would he go to the trouble if they aren't lifebound? I know that Nyara started out as a human and became a human again in the end, but when she met/lifebonded to Skif, she was a Changechild. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cennydd said: > /me picks up the sad, dust-clad little form of his joke from where it fell > on flat on the floor and cuddles it, brushing away the dust and soothing > it with little mrrrping noises (what? you didn't know that jokes are > remarkably like kittens?). Oh, if no one else wants your joke - I'll adopt it! Many of my jokes fall face first on the floor, too. I've learned to take better care of them since, and he'd have lots of company! :) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Christi said: >>that is what is written about. According to speculation, Amberdrake and Winterhart were lifebonded(?) although it was never said straight out. And Winterhart was trained to do what she did. Anyone could train to be a gryph helper, it didn't take a gift. Wouldn't she qualify as normal?<< Oh, there was textevd. for them being lifebound. In White Gryphon (p. 240-241 Amberdrake talking to Shalaman), "Winterhart and I have a very unusual bond. In our tongue, it is called 'lifebonding'." Also, Winterhart didn't just train to be a trondi'irn. She was also Gifted, with Healing and Empathy(?), I think. (Amberdrake to/about Winterhart - Black Gryphon p. 332-333) "'Cinnabar was already a trained Healer, dearheart,'...Not like you, little one. You might have had the Gift but your family didn't indulge you enough to let you get it trained... 'There is nothing more vulnerable than an untrained Empath...'" So she was Gifted - and Amberdrake most certainly was, so neither of them would really qualify as normal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe that that's everything for now,..... Talk to you all later! Renee Markowicz Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I've half a mind--" the green rider began. Pre-Veterinary Student |"Obviously," Robinton cut in. (_Dragonquest_) **High Priestess of |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Procrastination** |"We have a saying among the dragons - _Lead, Confused? Just Ask! | Follow, or Get Out of my Flight-Path_. Now, Visit my homepage: ;) | which is it going to be?" -Keman (_Elvenblood_) http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1142 **********************************