MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1143 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) lurking/travel by horse/firebird by AliFarr-+AT+-aol.com 2) Christianity & Fantasy by "John and Kara Pekar" 3) Re: Christians/evil fantasy by "Jay" 4) fantasy=evil by Ron Asher 5) Re: reply HISTORY LESSON!!!!! by Rob & Jody Edwards & Family 6) Braid:Wyrsa/ by Renee Mic Markowicz 7) Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth by shane b ambrose 8) Re: New book! "The Free Bards" by LCM46-+AT+-aol.com 9) Braid: Dinner/Christian fantasy/lifebonds,etc by Jennifer Dorn 10) Found Quote!! by Rob & Jody Edwards & Family 11) Re: Christianity/fantasy by "Sera" 12) Re: Christian by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 13) Re: chess by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: Found Quote!! and last names by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 15) song stuff by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 16) Re: Found Quote!! by cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net 17) Re: Christianity & Fantasy by Erik Wayne McKee 18) Re: Found Quote!! by Jennifer Wrenn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:39:32 -0500 (EST) From: AliFarr-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: lurking/travel by horse/firebird Message-ID: <970320123931_-1404606068-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> Esmerelda wrote: Oh, and on the subject of horses, ages back (Jan 96), AliFarr (long gone I think) sent in a mail about what horses can and can't do, and, as an aspiring writer about fantasy lands where folk use horses, I kept it. So: > > Walk: On level ground should cover about 4 -5 miles per hour > Trot: Covers 7-10 miles per hour > Canter: 8-12 miles per hour > Flat out gallop: racehorses can make close to 40 miles an hour - for a mile. > Realistically we are talking about a 15-20 mph pace, which is generally not > sustainable for more than about 30 minutes at a time. Endurance horses > complete 100 mile rides over all types of terrain in less than 24 hours, to > give an example of the ability of the top echelon . Actually, I'm still here, just reduced to constantly lurking as I am almost always a dozen digests behind. When Esmerelda posted this, I was only three behind, so I thought I'd actually pipe up with a reply. To add to this, discussion on the endurance list recently mentioned that someone finised the Tevis cup ride in 8.45 hours a few years back. That works out to 11.5 miles per hour over 100 miles. There are also some consecutive day rides in the US and Australia that cover 500 miles in 5 days. The pace is slower - how much I don't know, but its possible to achieve on a very sound, well conditioned horse, which to be fair about all this, the average traveler in a fantasy novel may not have. So take these times with a grain of salt when you are writing! I picked up Firebird in the bookstore yesterday, but couldn't bring myself to part with $25. As usual, Misty's characterization had me drawn in immediately - for anyone who has read it, is the story as well written as the main character is drawn? back to lurkdom AliFarr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:53:22 -0500 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: Christianity & Fantasy Message-ID: <199703201758.MAA15880-+AT+-nessie.crosslink.net> Wow! That sure opened up a lot of discussion! I was keeping a list of all the points I wanted to agree with, but it got too long. :-) So if I don't respond to something you said, don't think I wasn't impressed by your thinking! Cennydd wrote: >From a Catholic doctrinal stand-point, I would imagine that this falls under the precept of avoiding the "near occasions of sin." >From a strict Catholic doctrinal standpoint, you're probably right. However, interestingly enough, it's not an attitude I've ever run across from a Catholic, priest or layperson. I don't know whether that's just because I haven't run into any Catholics who feel strongly on the fantasy question, or whether it's because the Catholic Church (at least in my diocese) is putting it's attention more on the abortion issue than on the more nebulous question of whether or not reading fantasy is ok. My guess is that most of the very conservative Catholics that I know are focussed primarily on the abortion issue. (This is not intended to open up that issue on-list; it's just my theory as to where the conservative "energy" is going in the American Catholic Church.) I said: > No one seems to think that a Jew or a Buddhist can't read > fantasy. And Cennydd said: >As for the Jewish and Buddhist readers of fantasy, I haven't talked to >enough of them to know whether there is a general feeling about fantasy, > but I would suspect that strict Buddhists would frown on fantasy > literature also, as being too much a part of the wretched world. Good point, and one I hadn't considered. I also hadn't considered conservative or Orthodox Judaeism's reaction; all my Jewish friends are either Reform or something else fairly (open? flexible? I'm not sure how to phrase what I mean.) Thank you, Lonehawk, for giving me a little more insight into how fantasy might be viewed by Orthodox Jews. And thanks, Cen, for explaining why Wicca wouldn't have a proscription against fantasy. little alex wrote: if these people think that even reading a book can bring >you nearer to sin, then doesn't this mean these people are >insecure as hell (forgive the vernacular)? It seems that the more insecure or unsure people are about themselves or their relationship with God, the more they need to box themselves (and other people) in with restrictions, and the more they have a need to say "I'm right, and my way is right, and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong" -- as though putting themselves in an exclusive group somehow increased their rightness. However, that *doesn't* mean that all people with conservative views are insecure or unsure of themselves. But I've noticed that most of the people I've known who are both very conservative in their religious views, and very secure in their faith and their relationship with God, do not feel it necessary to impose their views on others. They share them freely if asked, but they don't condemn someone who doesn't agree. > If you are true in your faith, then absolutely nothing can tempt >you away from it, let alone a little book-reading. True. Also, if you are secure in your faith, you are more likely to be willing to hear and discuss other ideas and faiths (and read fantasy, if that interests you! :->), because you won't feel threatened by them. Personally, I feel that learning about, exploring the concepts of, and discussing other beliefs can only strengthen my faith. Whether or not I agree with the precepts of another faith, the process of thinking about it clarifies my own beliefs. Sometimes that process leads me to modify or alter assumptions I have made in the past, which I come to realize are holding me back in my spiritual growth. How can I grow, in faith or in any other way, without new ideas to challenge me? (Which is, of course, part of what I love about fantasy in general and ML in particular: it makes me think, and shows me other viewpoints.) (Ailsa, I realized after wrote this that you said something very similar.) Erik wrote: >C. S. Lewis on the other hand, who was a Christian Theologian, did fill >the _Chronicles_of_Narnia_ with Christian symbolism. However he sorta implies at the end of _The_Last_Battle_ that your particular religion >doesn't matter, you will still be fairly rewarded/punished for the deeds during your life. I remembered that passage, and it reminded me of something ML says as well. So here are the two quotes: (Aslan the lion is Lewis's Christ-analog. Here he is speaking to the Calormen, Emeth.) "Not because [Tash, the Calormene god] and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him, for I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted." [C.S. Lewis, _The Last Battle_, American hardcover ed., p. 156] "Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of good is still evil. What matters the name..." [ML, but oops; my memory, which is usually very good at telling me where to find a particular quote, has failed me utterly on this one. I'm pretty sure I've gotten the words right, but I cannot seem to find it to finish the quote and give the reference. I hate leaving it in the air like that -- but it's a point I really wanted to make, so... A batch of brownie sheep to whoever can find the quote for me and tell me where it came from.] Both these authors, at least one of them Christian, are saying through their characters that what we do in our lives matters more than the name we give to the one or ones we serve. Yes! But it was fantasy that gave each of them the opportunity and -- freedom? -- to say it. Fantasy (and sf) does give us the chance to explore great truths in a way that other genres aren't always able to do. All right; I promised I wouldn't go on *too* long on this topic. Here are a few more -- briefer -- thoughts: ++++++++++++++++++ Re Kristin's theory about Daren kicking off the Mage Storms when he put that section of Hardorn back to "normal" in BTS: Wow! I'd say it's possible, though like someone else (darned delete button), I'm not sure ML planned it that way. Then again, she may have... On the other hand, the effects seem to have been limited at the time to the area which that particular blood-path mage had been controlling or using. What I mean is, the *rest* of Ancar's land did not rise up in revolt against him, or go back to the way it was. If it had, the backlash probably would have killed Ancar, if he was benefitting directly from those blood-sacrifices (he certainly was using the power he gained from terrifying and killing off all those young women he kept in that private dungeon of his. [see WoFury]) If the effects at the time were so local, would they have spread across the continent to whereever the Mage Storms had died out or quieted following Urtho's death? Or would the effects have had to travel only as far as Evendim and the Plains, where a "put everything back the way it was" message might have the effect of starting the reversal from the originating point? I don't know. Also, is there any textevd about how far (in distance) earth-sense and earth-magic can go, or what kind of connection is needed to make it work? Daren feels the sickness of the land over which he himself is travelling, though he has no physical or psychic tie to that land other than the immediate contact of being there. And it's not really clear how far from his own location that sense extends. I always interpreted the "wave" he feels after the mage's death as the stored-up power the mage had stolen from the land and people through the murder of those people; in that sense, the power was very localized, though after Daren freed and directed it, it flowed out over a fairly large territory (spreading thinner as it did, like water would?) But your idea puts a different, and possibly better, interpretation on that "wave". (Re textevd on earth sense from SB -- I didn't want to use a spoiler, so I didn't use it, but it contradicts the Daren evidence in that there is a ritual/magical/ psychic/semiphysical tie between the person with the earth-sense and the land, and the earth-sense definitely has boundaries.) +++++++++++++++ Crystal quoted someone, then responded: >>I remember distinctly that in one of the Mage Winds >> stories, there's a quote close to '... Kero and her lifebonded, Eldan.' >Please try and find what passage this is in? Until I'm quoted wrong, I >am still going to hold with the theory that Kero and Eldan are *not* >lifebonded. For their dreams and with actually speaking with each >other... they're both mindspeakers which could have contributed, but >they are also in love! I'm still looking for the passage, which I seem to remember also. However, the fact that Kero and Eldan appear to stay "together" or in love following Kero's Choosing implies, to me, that they probably have a lifebond. There were several conversations in the Arrows books to the effect that relationships between Heralds generally don't last, because there isn't a lot of room in their lives for more than Kingdom and Companion. (On the other hand, Skif and Nyara are definitely not lifebonded, but the books never do show their relationship with Skif on "normal" Heraldic duty in Valdemar.) Another point: in WoFate, Elspeth is crying as she renounces the dream of the "Great True Love": "Why can't I have a little *something* for myself? That's not being selfish, that's just being human! Talia has Dirk, Kero has Eldan, even Mother has Daren..." [WoFate, US hardcover ed., p. 279, end of ch. 18] Elspeth, who knows for certain that Talia/Dirk and Selenay/Daren are lifebonded, puts Kero and Eldan in the same category. And about the dreams in BTS being evidence -- Kero doesn't *want* to dream about Eldan; she tries to drink enough to stop the dreams from coming. I gather she doesn't really want to love him, since she knows it's hopeless. Kero is a very strong individual; if she didn't want to love someone, I think she could stop -- yet she is unable to. That argues in favor of it being a lifebond. +++++++++++++++++++ Elisiande -- oops, maybe I misassigned that quote about marriage. I try to be careful about that, but every now and then I goof. And then, I was suffering from flu at the time, so my mental processes weren't altogether sharp. My apologies and your favorite flavor of sheep to go with your chava. Wind to thy wings, Kara "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:20:09 CDT From: "Jay" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christians/evil fantasy Message-ID: <4090DD81085-+AT+-acad2.dana.edu> Whats Your point Melvin? Whats offensive to you and other people, May not be offensive to others. Does that make us wrong? Noper. It's called being shallow minded! Jayson MELVIN NEVERGOLD Wrote: > FYI--- The science fiction book club notates that LHM contain offesive > subject matter. The offesive matter being that Vanyel is shaych (homosexual) > openly even through the ""love scenes"" constist of no more than an > inferment that they were going to have sex. > > On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Jay wrote: > I think it would be foolish to think > > that fantasy such as stuff like The Last Herald Mage would be evil. I > > am a christian and I read a lot of fiction. Its not sinning. I'd like > > someone to show me where it says in the bible that reading fiction is > > wrong. Frankly, I never saw the 11th commandmant stating : Thou > > shalt not read fiction! Frankly it just depends on the reader. > > Anybody saying that this fiction is evil or we are evil for reading > > it is just a bit to self-rightous and arrogant. THEY may not agree > > with the views. Untill we go up, we will never know. By stating that > > fiction is evil,wouldn't that be putting words in the mouth of the > > almight? Now that is wrong. Sorry for my Rant. I just couldn't stay > > quiet any longer. Anybody offended? Sorry if you where, but thats > > the way it goes. And anybody thinking I'm a sinner for reading stuff > > like the Harald mage stories, I laugh at you for your foolishness and > > stupidity. Sorry, what can I say? I'm a sinner.......... > > Any body agree with us? > > > > Jayson > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:19:56 CST From: Ron Asher To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: fantasy=evil Message-ID: <009B18B1.7C3CF780.3-+AT+-slcl.lib.mo.us> I'M A FUNDAMENTALIST LAY PREACHER WHO'S A DIE HARD FANTASY FAN.I'VE SEEN THE ATTITUDES YOU'VE DESCRIBED.IT COMES FROM THE IDLE HANDS IS THE DEVIL'S WORKSHOP IDEA.I SEE THE GOOD VS. EVIL AS SYMBOLIC OF CHRISTIAN RELIGION. EX LO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:34:22 -0700 From: Rob & Jody Edwards & Family To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: reply HISTORY LESSON!!!!! Message-ID: <3331913E.21F0-+AT+-i-link.net> Megan Schreiber wrote: > > At 07:42 AM 3/20/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Agreed. Besides, as Christians, you are made aware that you are born with > >sin, so hey, you can't be perfect in the first place. There is not one > > Ah-ah...not quite. Not as -Christians-, necessarily. I'm Christian, as > stated in an earlier post. However, according to my religion people aren't > born in sin. That's a religion-specific thing, not a part of Christianity as > a whole. > > >religion or nonreligion lifestyle that can claim perfection, explained by > >the saying - you can't please everyone all the time...blahblah. No flames > >from me. History can be ugly. Some people say America's great and > >perfect, but the good ol' land has had her fare share of slavery, murder, > >and injustice. > > Just about -everything- has a bad thing in its past somewhere, be it > religion, country, or other organization. People are flawed, therefore > things run by people have flaws inherent within them. > > >Some people like to point out flaws in things because they disagree. Some > >people will go as far as bashing the ideas of something. All too often > >"good Christians and their good views" are pushed aside whenever an > >overzealous or mislead Christian comes along. Again, that's just someone > > Yes, I know. I've run into a lot of people who like to bash my > religion...often they like to generalize about Christians being > 'witch-burning' and 'murderous' and 'hypocritical' and all those good > things. The acts of the noisy few are more remembered than the quiet > majority. It gets annoying after a while. > > ********* > Aili wrote: > >I am an ex-christian and I guess I left my church when they were so > >anti-gay. I am not talking about fundamentalists here either. With > >apologies to the mormon members here - but my sister who follows that road > >told me and believes that homosexuality is worse than murder! So you can > >imagine how she treats me. >off and back on track> > > Ack, someone said that to you?!?! Let me apologize to you...homosexuality > isn't worse than murder, last time I heard. But that's beside the point. > Just because someone is living a lifestyle in which you personally don't > believe, that's absolutely -NO- excuse to persecute them. Mormons should > know that, especially. The commandment has always been to -love- your > neighbor, not scream at them because they do something you think is > 'sinful'. One man's sinful is another man's commonplace. Note: I'm not > condoning anything. Just saying that just because -I- believe one way, I'm > not going to force everyone else to believe that way, as well. Free agency > is a wonderful thing. > > Wyvern > http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib > Megan Schreiber > mschreib-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu > http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib > > ~ Member, Guild of Invertebrate Liars ~ > Motto: "So I'm spineless, so slug me." Megan- I agree with you. It is a shame that people feel they must persecute those they disagree with. It truely is. I feel that it happens all too often and I would like to add my apology to yours. -Jel'enedra (Jody Lynn) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:34:34 -0500 (EST) From: Renee Mic Markowicz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid:Wyrsa/ Message-ID: OK, here's the rest that didn't make it into the first braid. Dana wrote: >"Hunting a species to the brink of extinction is not logical" Spock >Thes creatures were fitting into the new biosystem, they were viable >and fairly intelligent, were they not? Does inconvenience give >people the right to commit murder? >Since gryphon-kind eat a lot, and since they were made by magic, >much as these creatures were, in times of famine would it not be >convenient to destroy gryphons to save the resource of foodstuffs and >thereby save men? I think that we may all be looking at this the wrong way. The people of WG, weren't thinking about making a species become extinct, or even protecting WG. Skan, Amberdrake, Tad, and Blade destroyed all the wyrsa because they couldn't get out of the forest alive if they didn't! Also, gryphons and wyrsa are really not on the same level. Gryphons are thinking, feeling, (for the most part) compassionate creatures. The wyrsa were threatening everything around them except themselves - not just bipedal humanoids, and for no reason other than to kill. They didn't need to kill Skan and Drake's party - there was no magic there for them to eat. That didn't stop them from killing every one, though. Gryphons only kill out of necessity (for food) or in self-defense/war situations. That's not the same thing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jews and Fantasy: Well, I'm Jewish (reform) and I've never run into any problems with my local rabbis. Reform Jews tend to be more open minded about a lot of things. In the class that I assistant taught for 4-5 years, we had one book that was an analogy for the Holocaust and the main characters were animals. They talked and thought and all that good stuff. We used to read it to the kids (2nd grade) and no one thought anything of it. Then again, I'm not sure that counts as fantasy... Anyway, I'm sure that many "older" and more religious 'sects' of Judaism would have a problem with fantasy - some would have a problem with reading of any type that is that not the Torah and accompanying texts (really Orthodox/Hassidic types). Hope that helps! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ShadowWof asked: ObMisty: Does anyone on Velgarth play chess or similar games? Yes, they do. It's called Hinds and Hounds. (MPrice p. 88-89) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well, that's it for now! Renee Markowicz Knight of the Order of Amber and Marigold flare-+AT+-udel.edu |"I've half a mind--" the green rider began. Pre-Veterinary Student |"Obviously," Robinton cut in. (_Dragonquest_) **High Priestess of |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Procrastination** |"We have a saying among the dragons - _Lead, Confused? Just Ask! | Follow, or Get Out of my Flight-Path_. Now, Visit my homepage: ;) | which is it going to be?" -Keman (_Elvenblood_) http://udel.edu/~flare/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:43:57 -0600 From: shane b ambrose To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animal Conservation in Velgarth Message-ID: <3331937D.5A50395A-+AT+-wolverine.cameron.edu> FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > Heyla > > As to all this stuff, I think that those wyrsa were killed cuz they would not > let up. In silver gryphon The wyrsa would not stop hunting them. They had no > choise but to kill them. It is the law of the wild, at least as I see. What > did Kipling say? Kill to eat or to keep from being eaten. The Hawk-Brothers > made it plane that they would only kill them if they begain to become a > threat to the general populis. And it The Winds Trillogy When Skiff was > fighting the wyrsa they had to kill them all. they would not run away. > > Given all this, I must say that the Wyrsa sould be left alone if they are not > hearting anyone but beyond that, as they will not let up, they should be > destroyd. > > (THe above is only my opinion) > > Zhai'hellava > > Stallion > May the wolves of your desteny be just > Blessed Be > ::::Be OK:::: Well in my opinion the wyrsa were just animals. I agree they were smart but not sanctioned. They were killed because they were deemed a threat that would not go away and a threat that would end up at the white gryphone. (sorry the spelling is not so good.) -- Shane Ambrose tele: 405-581-1867 4627 sw H Ave email: sbambros-+AT+-wolverine.cameron.edu Lawton, OK 73505 Have a nice day! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:59:43 -0500 (EST) From: LCM46-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: New book! "The Free Bards" Message-ID: <970320145943_478468673-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> I,too, am sorry for the short post--------sheeps to all----------Vrondi mentions Amazon's reporting of new ML book "Free Bards", but DIDN'T say that the "expected publication" date is May 1, 1997-------so---all of you in the US of A---don't rush right out to your fave bookseller and look for it! Lorraine, lurking mode off for a sec. domestic/laundry goddess penguin lover But I'm not dead yet! MP/Holy Grail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:24:28 -0600 From: Jennifer Dorn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid: Dinner/Christian fantasy/lifebonds,etc Message-ID: <199703202028.OAA119220-+AT+-audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 04:35 PM 3/20/97 GMT, Melvin wrote: >The church my mother took me to when I was 5 would gadly burn your >friends at a steak or even as a steak before hteir role paying detached >them from God and sanity. > Melvin Nevergold > I'm sorry, I can't resist. Is it a nice steak? Does it come with a baked potato and a side salad? Just curious On the subject of Christian fundamentalists disapproving of fantasy and roleplaying game stuff... I have a lot of friends who are normal, sane Christian people and would never say such a thing. I also know one or two very vocal people who believe that Christians should not read *any* secular fiction, ie anything that does not have Christianity in it somewhere, and in fact should not listen to secular music. One guy I knew even got up and turned off the music once because his girlfriend was singing along with it. Therefore, he said, "the music was controlling her". Of course, according to this person, I am the incarnation of the anti-christ and put on this earth to try his faith. Yeah right. There are some frightening people out there. They are a minority, but they're so strange that everyone remembers it. Most people are NOT NOT NOT like this. I respect anyone who believes in anything and has reasons for why they believe it. (this includes people whose belief is that there is nothing). My best friend is Catholic, and I grew up in a predominantly Christian town. I know a lot of pagan people who get pretty prejudiced themselves because they've had a few run-ins with the nutcases and assume all Christians are like that. It's a sad predicament. I'm wiccan, but there's no way that I would ever expect anyone else to hold my beliefs. There is also no way I would generalize about an entire religion based on a few nuts. Just my opinion, do with it what you will. ******************** Renee said: > I know that Nyara started out as a human and became a human >again in the end, but when she met/lifebonded to Skif, she was a >Changechild. I don't think that Skif and Nyara were lifebonded. I think that was one of Skif's insecurities... he thought he couldn't hold onto someone as attractive as Nyara without that kind of bond. I believe that's why Stefen tells them in Wof Fury about how lifebonds aren't all that great. Does someone have the textevd? (Sorry I've been so bad about it... I'm in college and my books are at home) I also don't think that Elspeth and Darkwind are necessarily lifebonded, just very much in love. ********************** Kara said: >"Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of >good is still evil. What matters the name..." [ML, but oops; my memory, >really wanted to make, so... A batch of brownie sheep to whoever can find >the quote for me and tell me where it came from.] Once again, I am minus books, but doesn't Ulrich say that to Karal in Storm Warning? I could be wrong- it just sounded like something he'd say. ********************** Crystal, I think that the predominance of lifebonded characters is simply due to the type of characters Misty concentrates on. It's been established that people with extraordinary gifts are more likely to lifebond (Not necessarily the only ones to do so- I believe that's a different debate. I'm just saying it's more likely), and who else does Misty write about than people with extraordinary Gifts? They aren't the norm, but since when did Misty write about the "norm"? *********************** Renee said: > In the class that I assistant taught for 4-5 years, we had one >book that was an analogy for the Holocaust and the main characters were >animals. They talked and thought and all that good stuff. oh cool... Are you talking about _Maus_? That's one powerful book. Also, Jays, I agree with your "HISTORY LESSON" post. The Crusades never did make much sense to me, and don't even mention the Burning Times Neither seemed exceptionally Christian to me. On the same subject, Dana wrote: >Why is it that we Christians beat >ourselves up over this so much more than anyone else? Just a possibility, It's probably because it's the majority religion (at least in my hemisphere). The majority tends to be under a lot more scrutiny than the minority. Just a thought. Zhai'helleva, Lady Guenevere Knight-errant of the OAM Witch and Keeper of Gargoyles Mistress of fire-lizards and Dragons "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother"~ anonymous jldorn-+AT+-students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:57:17 -0700 From: Rob & Jody Edwards & Family To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Found Quote!! Message-ID: <3331A4AD.3B43-+AT+-i-link.net> > "Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of > good is still evil. What matters the name..." [ML, but oops; my memory, > which is usually very good at telling me where to find a particular quote, > has failed me utterly on this one. I'm pretty sure I've gotten the words > right, but I cannot seem to find it to finish the quote and give the > reference. I hate leaving it in the air like that -- but it's a point I > really wanted to make, so... A batch of brownie sheep to whoever can find > the quote for me and tell me where it came from.] Okay,here is your answer to where the quote is. I only knew because I have just started reading the Storm trilogy. The quote can be found in the book "Storm Warning". If I am wrong, it HAS to be in "Storm Rising". I don't know the exact location. I am almost positive that it is in SW, though. I seem to remember discussion between Karal and ??? about the different Gods, in which they discuss the fact that it didn't matter in whose name the deed was done, but that evil done in the name of good was still evil and vice versa. Anyone know what I am talking about? Well, that's my 2 cents worth. - Jel'enedra (Jody Lynn) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:25:11 CST From: "Sera" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christianity/fantasy Message-ID: <25BA6D46310-+AT+-email.rosary.edu> Kara wrote: > Now I've got a question: Has anyone on this list run into the idea, held > by some non-Christians and fundamental Christians alike, that Christians > don't or shouldn't read fantasy? Well, let me just say that when I saw the subject line of this one I knew that I was going to have to respond. I am a cradle-born Catholic as are the rest of my family. Now three of the five members of my family read fantasy and science fiction, however, I am the most avid reader of the bunch. Since I also OWN the most of the fantasy novels in the house I am the one CONSTANTLY getting the heat about being corrupted from the ideas in them. I have been "talked to" by priests and have been forced to go to lectures on the evils of the New Age movement in which fantasy is seen as the road to destruction. Whenever I say something that my parents disagree with I get a "Fantasy books are corrupting you" lecture. I have had to go so far as to hide some of my more "interesting" covered books. At the same time that I am dealing with my parents who are telling me that I am going to turn into the devil I have made my own decision on the subject. As others have pointed out, if you don't have a firm foundation in your own faith anything (fantasy or reality) can shake it. However, if you are on a firm foundation than what you read shouldn't matter. Besides, the fact that by reading books showing different viewpoints one better understands the world as a whole. A person can't go through life with blinders on which is what some people (including my parental units) want. By taking the blinders off a person better understands they world in which many people of many faiths and ideas live. No one in the world thinks EXACTLY like me and I should be willing to look at another person't point of view if I want them to do that for me...that's only fair (and ANY Christian SHOULD be able to follow that reasoning)! IMHO, I believe that reading a piece of fiction isn't corrupting. In fact it is enlightening in many ways. I can see how different beliefs (including my own) can be viewed in a new light and applied to anything, including fantastical lands and people. Sorry about the lengthy post on the matter. This is a subject that hits close to home, especially today. (I fought with my mother when she saw that I am still wearing a silver pegasus pendant.) A handful of mini gummy sheep to all that listened to my ranting and raging. :) Sera * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Truly you have a dizzying intellect." The Princess Bride "On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essential est invisible pour les yeux." Le Petit Prince Antoine de Saint-Exupery * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Liz Blaszak Goddess of the Eventide Apprentice to the Guild of Typoists blaszael-+AT+-email.rosary.edu http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/3772/ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4537/ (708) 524-6997 X2076 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:35:40 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christian Message-ID: <970320163507_987508622-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> Kara wrote: > > Now I've got a question: Has anyone on this list run into the idea, > held > by some non-Christians and fundamental Christians alike, that Christians > don't or shouldn't read fantasy? Actualy I run into it quite often. I was raised catholic by my mother and my father raised me on sci-fi. My mom was okay with this but when i came out about my relgious Status (Wiccan) and my prefrences (I'm gay) guess who was to blame? They say they don't fight about it but when ever it comes up my mom glares at my dad. And get this. My father only recently started talking to me again and my mom accepted it all from the begining. Zhail'hellava Stallion May the wolves of your desteny be just Blessed Be ::::Be OK:::: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:36:01 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: chess Message-ID: <970320163514_-1873547122-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> Shadow wolf said: > ObMisty: Does anyone on Velgarth play chess or similar games? Yes actualy Steff and Vanyel played Hounds and Hinds and that was a game of statagy. If i had the books I would give you the quote but i don't all i can remeber was that it was the second time that Vanyel had him in his room and when Van asked if he knew how to play Steff said something to the efect of : "No but i would love to learn" Really inocently and Van laughed and said that he had probly palyed sience he could walk or some thing. Zhai'hellava Stallion May the wolves of your desteny be just Blessed Be :::Be OK:::: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:29:10 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Found Quote!! and last names Message-ID: <970320172836_141904139-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-20 16:13:04 EST, you write: > > "Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of > > good is still evil. What matters the name..." [ML, but oops; my memory, > > which is usually very good at telling me where to find a particular quote, > > has failed me utterly on this one. I'm pretty sure I've gotten the words > > right, but I cannot seem to find it to finish the quote and give the > > reference. I hate leaving it in the air like that -- but it's a point I > > really wanted to make, so... A batch of brownie sheep to whoever can find > > the quote for me and tell me where it came from.] > > > Okay,here is your answer to where the quote is. I only knew because I > have just started reading the Storm trilogy. The quote can be found in > the book "Storm Warning". If I am wrong, it HAS to be in "Storm > Rising". I don't know the exact location. I am almost positive that it > is in SW, though. I seem to remember discussion between Karal and ??? > about the different Gods, in which they discuss the fact that it didn't > matter in whose name the deed was done, but that evil done in the name > of good was still evil and vice versa. Anyone know what I am talking > about? Well, that's my 2 cents worth. - Jel'enedra (Jody Lynn) Ha! Got it Ulrich Said This "A good deed done in the name of the Dark is still done for the Light, but an evil one done in the name of Light is still quite evil, and a soul can be condemed to darkness for it" (p. 228. SW hardcover) I know this is not the quote you wanted but it was the other one like it in the book and i canna find the other one, But i rember it said "All Good done in whatever Name is still Good, and all Evil done in any Name is Evil , so let us dispense with the Naming of Names." Or some thing like that. oh and in my surch i found that karal has a last name: Karal Austreben Just for the people who were wondering about last names. Here's a chalenge. I want to start a list of First last names of Misty's Velgarth caractors. Zen hugs and many sheeps to all who can help me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:30:55 -0500 (EST) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: song stuff Message-ID: <970320172839_448786429-+AT+-emout09.mail.aol.com> Renee wrote > Elizabeth Cameron wrote: > >>A music comment, inspired by my signature. Did anyone else notice that > on > the tape they changed a word of the song Threes? It turned from "Your > sister at your side" to "Your shieldmate at your side." And that was not a > Leslac error. It was in the book as sister. I think that's it.<< > > Yup. I noticed. They did that with a couple of other songs as well. > "Windrider Unchained" has some words changed also. In some cases, it may > have been that the original words didn't fit in well with the melody, or > maybe Misty just decided that she liked the new words better. :) Also in Deamons Bane She changed almost all the words around. And if you ask me it sounds better the new way. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:22:33 -0500 From: cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Found Quote!! Message-ID: <3331C6B9.710F-+AT+-spectra.net> Rob & Jody Edwards & Family wrote: > > > "Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of > > good is still evil. What matters the name..." > > Okay,here is your answer to where the quote is. I only knew because I > have just started reading the Storm trilogy. The quote can be found in > the book "Storm Warning". Was this particular idea (good done in the name...etc...) introduced in any other ML books?? I know that I was using this in religious debates *long* before the Storm trilogy ... I was using that particular line when I was 16 (7 years ago) ... wasn't it in a Tregarde book?? Or maybe it's just a universal quote... Crystal ---------Christopher J. Kocher-------Crystal D. Sarakas-------- ----------------------cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net--------------------- "Would anybody like to write a song with me now? A line at a time?" - Ray Davies, during a CompuServe chat "It is appallingly clear that our technology has surpassed our humanity." - Albert Einstein -------Ask about ordering information for "Ninth Aspect"------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:20:25 -0600 (CST) From: Erik Wayne McKee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Christianity & Fantasy Message-ID: The quote that you were looking far is somewhere in Storm Rising. If I remember aright, Ulrich is telling this to Karal. Karal finds it quite surprising. Bright Blessings Erik #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:46:34 -0500 From: Jennifer Wrenn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Found Quote!! Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970321024634.0067c658-+AT+-atlonline.com> >Rob & Jody Edwards & Family wrote: >> >> > "Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of >> > good is still evil. What matters the name..." >> > > >Was this particular idea (good done in the name...etc...) introduced in >any other ML books?? I know that I was using this in religious debates >*long* before the Storm trilogy ... I was using that particular line >when I was 16 (7 years ago) ... wasn't it in a Tregarde book?? Or >maybe it's just a universal quote... > >Crystal I think the idea is just a universal idea. I know that Aslan says something almost exactly like that in the Chronicles of Narnia, in _The Last Battle_. I can't recall right off hand any other references to the idea in Misty's books, but it's late and I'm tired, so that doesn't mean much. Anyhoo, that's just my thought. Okay, new thought! First off, thanks to you all who answered my question about the Storms, though I still really don't have a good picture of them. ah well. Anyways, I just thought I'd mention that whoever it was that came up with the notion that daren brought on the storms was pretty clever. I would NEVER have thought of that, and it does make a kind of sense. Whether Daren's earthsense was strong enough to do that or not, I don't know, but the idea is VERRRY interesting. If the earth were to go back to the way it was before, then the Dhorisha Plains would be gone, as well as Lake Evendim, right? Mayhaps the magic storms were the earth's 'attempts' to right what happened in the Mage Wars, but the magic energy was so great that Mother Earth's slow, stable power couldn't handle it. And maybe this is all totally illogical and makes little sense, even illogically. I don't think 'tis likely that it was DAren who started the Storms, though. I seem to recall someone saying that Gates warp both time and space, right? And since a rather large number of Permanent Gates were destroyed on that day (go Skan!), 'twould seem that time itself could be ruptured, somehow causing the Storms to slowly die out, then reverse themselves. Like they hit the side of the bowl, nyet? Gee, this is starting to sound like Star Trek! Cap'n, we have a temporal discontinuity off the starboard bow! Methinks that's enough silly thoughts for one night. Zhai'helleva listsibs! NightSong jwrenn-+AT+-atlonline.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1143 **********************************