MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1145 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: BeTHaNy Weber by chelsea etitameh 2) Completely UNCALLED FOR!!!!! by Lonehawk2-+AT+-aol.com 3) short by Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com 4) Re: BeTHaNy Weber by "Fawcett, Erika" 5) Elvenbane by NightSong 6) Re: Bethany Webber/ other stuff by "Alexandra Y. Kwan" 7) the religion thread by Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> 8) Re: Completely UNCALLED FOR!!!!! by Taeyana-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: Elvenbane by Healer Althaia 10) Re: the religion thread by shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com (Shy V Kraytman) 11) Re: the religion thread by Ken Hyde 12) Re: Benathy Weber by 13) Writing traits/religious query... by cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net 14) Various issues on Christians/Misty quality/LHM/anything else I can thinkof. by Rosario Holsen 15) Re: rape scene by "Alexandra Y. Kwan" 16) Religion etc. by Melanie Dymond Harper 17) Re: BeTHaNy Weber by white 18) Re: Benathy Weber by John Hagen 19) Re:MZB and storm series by white 20) Re: Completely UNCALLED FOR!!!!! by William L Pomeroy 21) Re: Josh Albers by "Vrondi" 22) Re: the religion thread by "Vrondi" 23) Re:MZB and storm series by "Vrondi" 24) Re: Writing traits/religious query... by "Fawcett, Erika" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:04:37 -0700 (MST) From: chelsea etitameh To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BeTHaNy Weber Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Josh Albers wrote: > actually, magic is dealing with Satanism. doing illusions deals with > tricking people, but magic is a whole different thing. Magic is basically > calling on Satan for his power. All that "playing" magic does is play > calling on Satan's power. If you play with fire, it WILL burn you. > Wiccans are long gone. They have already given their lives to Satan. > Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone else) is Jesus > Christ. The church of Wicca is a cult. Scratch that. It is an occult. A > cult has plainly led many people the wrong way. An occult plainly worships > Satan. all right. *this* is what i hoped would not happen on this list. no one, i repeat: *NO ONE* has the right to tell me, or anyone else, what is or is not a fit religious practice. you leave me alone, and i'll leave you alone, eh? i don't feel that *your* religious practices are inherently wrong, and even if i did, i would never tell you that. it is your right, as much as it is mine, to choose your own religious path. kindly choose yours and let me be. (semi-apologies for sending this to the entire list.) chelsea etitameh chelsea.fischer-+AT+-colorado.edu http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~ccfische caf0001-+AT+-jove.acs.unt.edu http://people.unt.edu/~caf0001 *~*~* love more live more have more give more love *~*~* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:16:36 -0500 (EST) From: Lonehawk2-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk, spockears-+AT+-geocities.com Subject: Completely UNCALLED FOR!!!!! Message-ID: <970321231635_-1002338479-+AT+-emout02.mail.aol.com> Ok. I am going into a near flame mode at reading this message. Josh Albers writes: > magic is dealing with Satanism. . . Magic is basically >calling on Satan for his power. . . Wiccans are long gone. They have already >given their lives to Satan. >Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone else) is Jesus >Christ. The church of Wicca is a cult. Scratch that. It is an occult. A >cult has plainly led many people the wrong way. Somebody, I'm sorry I can't remember the name, posted a note asking not to discuss religion on the list because this is a forum for discussing Lackey books. I disagreed at first. As someone else pointed out, religion is a part of her writing and provides a vital dimension to it. However. Josh, however, has taken this above and beyond the acceptable discussion of religion and religious beliefs. When people here expressed their views of Christianity, Judaism, and Wicca, they are presenting a part of themselves. They are saying. This is what I believe, this makes sense to me, what do you think??? They were NOT saying Christianity is misleading and evil because so many people died in the name of Jesus Christ and were wrongly persecuted because they wear a turban or because they thought that Jews were Christ killers. I know I am treading on eggshells here, and this is a very touchy subject. But I cannot BELIEVE that someone would have the AUDACITY to post such a note to the list knowing how many people here follow the Wiccan faith because it is the most comfortable for them. I am one such person, and to me Wicca is religion most in tune with the earth. There are no set religious rites that call on the Satan. It teaches to focus your own energy, and the energy of living things around you and use it, think of it as electric energy if you will. (After all, Misty does hold a degreen in electrical science, which is why her theory on magic seems so much like electricity.) It is not blood or black magick. However, I am NOT shoving this down your throat, Josh. I am merely stating what it means to me. Nor am I saying that you are evil because you worship Jesus Christ and people of your religion has persecuted those of mine (Wiccans or "heathen", and my parents - Jewish) I do not believe holding against people that which their ancestors did centuries ago. What you have done is completely unnaceptable. If you can so calmly discuss Misty after writing that, then I believe you have entirely missed the point of her writing. Lonehawk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:20:35 -0500 (EST) From: Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: short Message-ID: <970321232033_-1035896259-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> I would just like to say to who ever asked, that I read the Halfblood Chronicles (Elvenblood and Elvenbane) I LOVED them and I have also been wondering about why they haven't been discussed and I have been wondering about posting on this subject for a while...and Keman ROCKED! On a more sober note Josh Albers if you have a major problem (which from that post I seriously suspect that that's the case) you can unsubscribe, that peice of mil was rude and completely uncalled for. This is a mailing list to discuss an author, it is NOT, I repeat, NOT a religius forum. (still fuming) Shadowsong P.S.--sorry to everybody, I think I got this whole thing started and I oppologize profusely to all those I have negatively influenced...except Josh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:07:07 -0500 From: "Fawcett, Erika" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BeTHaNy Weber Message-ID: <199703220507.AAA20799-+AT+-postoffice.onu.edu> At 04:23 3/22/97 GMT, chelsea etitameh wrote: >(semi-apologies for sending this to the entire list.) Don't apologize. Some things everybody needs to hear. 'There is no one true way', eh? But these things happen, and these arguments *can* be enlightening and even amusing for all involved only if everyone approaches it with an open mind. But once the arguments dissolve into (as this one seems to have already done) unbased declarations of of the other person most "obvious" wrongness. [sidenote: my most fun philosophy class was when someone had the audacity to declare she was right because the bible told her so, and why trust the bible? (and her interpretation) Because the bible told her so. Sigh.] So, my question is this: What personal, real life experiance, what knowledge logic or traced intuition leads you to believe what you believe? I hope the topic doesn't have to be dropped altogether, there's a potential to learn from each other that really shouldn't be passed up. But if this is going to be a flamefest, I guess we shouldn't risk it. Too bad. Okay, guess I'll wander back into the shadows to lurk some more. (mildly upset at this reaffirmation of the once indefensible thought that people really can't act like grown-ups around Big Issues). Good thoughts and bright hopes, ---Erika "Now I know I could have walked through the walls." --The Last Unicorn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:08:37 -0500 From: NightSong To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Elvenbane Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970322050837.0068d310-+AT+-atlonline.com> I've also read those two books, and I LOVE them. I had forgotten about them, though. I love both ML and Andre Norton (any one else a Witch World fan?), and those books were just totally awesome collaborations. I like Keman a LOT, same as Shadowsong. However, I tried to read Tiger Burning Bright (I THINK that was Misty, Norton and someone else-the Darkover novel author?), and I couldn't get past the second chapter. Can anyone tell me if it WAS written by those three women, and, if so, did anyone like it? Sorry this post is so short, listsibs. Sheeps to you all, if you're bothered by it. Zhai'helleva. NightSong ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:17:43 -0800 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Bethany Webber/ other stuff Message-ID: <33336B77.7FAA-+AT+-earthlink.net> First, to Cennydd, I agree that I absolutely shouldn't flame people, and I apologize to anyone who's offended and specifically to Ron. But this time, Cenn, you've got to excuse me for this little tidbit titled 'Bethany Webber.' Josh, what you've done, as many have already said, is totally uncalled for. You have no right as to impose such views to others. If you think practicing magic is evil, unless your sole purpose here is to flame, I see no reason for you to be in this mailing list at all! A lot of Misty's books deal with the heralds and/or the herald-mages, why are you reading her books if you think what the heralds/herald-mages are doing is evil? Okay, I've fumed and flamed enough. That's my two cents worth. Bye. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Lee <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: the religion thread Message-ID: Dave Roberts said, "Regarding less than pure list topics such as religion... I found the discussions on this list to be very interesting and a nice = addition. I wouldn't want the main focus of the list to be lost, but as = far as the Velgarth realm goes religion is an oft discussed topic for = Misty, and as such doesn't seem too inappropriate a topic for this list." Well, after Josh Albers' response to Bethany Weber, I hope you can guess why this thread makes me flinch. *I* happened to find the discussion interesting also, and at some points informative; I am somewhat curious about various religious doctrines and how people get treated or lectured at because of religious differences. When I said the religion thread needed curbing, I didn't mean, don't discuss it; I meant, relate it to Misty a bit more. Hm, I have more to say about the difference between mentions of religion that do or don't go over the line, but hold on while I respond to Josh. ---------- "actually, magic is dealing with Satanism. [snip the rest]" Josh, don't go there. Don't tell me what actually exists; don't tell the *list* what actually exists unless you have irrefutable evidence to back it up. *This is not a list for discussing what's real.* We can state what we think is real--e.g. listmembers who've said they believe lifebonding is possible, or said that they *have* lifebonded--but we're not here to convince anybody of anything. We're here to share our mutual appreciation for the works of Mercedes Lackey, not get in flamewars over whether, say, psychic powers exist. And we would get into flamewars over it if people decided that there was something urgent and vital about the mission to correct everybody else's wrongheadedness. The most important virtue for keeping this list, not merely a civil place, but a fun and friendly place (a place that people would want to be), is the willingness to let others go on being wrong. I wish you could believe "there is no one true way" as Misty states... Hey, are you a troller? Have I (and others) been taken in? I find it hard to believe anyone who's read Misty's works... anyhow, where was I? Oh yeah, tolerance. You don't have to have tolerance to the point of giving up your belief that Wicca is Evil, though I wish you would, but politeness requires that you perform a reasonable simulation of tolerance. I'm pretty sure your opinion of Wicca is based on misinformation. (Referring to it as a "church", for one thing. A Wiccan church? That would imply organization. And apparently you've never looked up "cult" or "occult" in the dictionary; instead you're basing your definitions on predjudice-loaded hearsay.) Having never looked over her shoulder, I can't tell you how Bethany practices her religion, but I can tell you most Wiccans are not that outlandish--lighting candles, waving incense around, singing/chanting, maybe dancing--sounds a lot like any other religion's ritual, doesn't it? The other part of your opinion is based on your own brand of whatever version of Xtianity you belong to, the idea that power can only come from God or Satan, and any so-called power that doesn't identify with *your* god must be Satan in disguise. Apparently you don't care how it makes Bethany and the other Wiccans here feel when you accuse them of Satan worship and claim they are going to hell. I can't force you to feel empathy or remorse or any of those emotions that non-sociopaths have, if you, in this situation, refuse to feel them. So instead I ask you for purely practical reasons not to proselytize. You'll start a fight, and people who are posting messages about how wrong so-n-so is aren't discussing Misty, which means the list is pointless. Heck, you already have started something--I'm steaming mad I had to see this happen among my friends. And I don't know where you get off asking Bethany to disprove *your* beliefs. If you've had any acquaintance with logic, forensics, etc., you might have heard of the ridiculousness of trying to prove that something is not true. You might also have heard that those who make assertions bear the burden of proof. --------- I can't apologize or say this is not a flame. Josh is new I think, and I hate to jump on anybody before they've got the hang of how we behave around here. (Apparently he joined so recently as to miss Auntie Mel's Rules of Thumb, in which we are clearly encouraged to keep quoting to a minimum.) But I asked people politely to be care-ful of other people's sensibilities, and Kawry asked us firmly, and I've had too little sleep and am getting a bit frazzled. ----------- To bring this back to the question of what is list-appropriate, let's get hypothetical: Suppose we are having a discussion about Companion speed, and people start bringing up racehorse speeds. Fine. Then somebody mentions that the fastest-ever endurance time on record was such-n-such, and people start getting into a discussion of the history of horse racing. Off topic, but we can live with it; it'll probably peter out and die a natural death as all threads do. Then somebody brings up an issue of heated controversy within racing circles, and several people begin to get annoyed that they cannot agree that the truth is [fill in the blank]. Bad. Better to stop before you bring up the controversial thing, or, if you do bring it up, state it as an opinion that you can defend but do not want to do so in public space. And state it factually, rather than judgementally, e.g. "Racehorses can be abused by their handlers, and often are" is better than "The whole sport of racing is Evil because it encourages animal abuse!" Mostly we remember how to state things in a manner that does not invite anger, misunderstanding, or hurt feelings. Sometimes we forget, but we know anyway. On the whole, I'm sure this lecture of mine is unnecessary. My profuse apologies for telling anybody anything they already knew. I'm not usually this cranky. If anybody has anything more to say about the religion topic, go ahead. Just keep in mind that we would all like to see this list remain civil. --pardon my rudeness, and wind to thy wings, friends-- *~the Eternally Nourished Lee, Lady Knight of the OAM and OOPS, Spreader of Humor, Self-Appointed User of 5-point Vocabulary Words Such As "Panegyric"~* <97jsalaz-+AT+-uor.edu> or Meta Geek Code: !gc (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4709/) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:49:19 -0500 (EST) From: Taeyana-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Completely UNCALLED FOR!!!!! Message-ID: <970322004917_-704235382-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> I agree with Lonehawk2, and I would like to point out, that yes, Wiccanism, Shamnism, and many other things which you can call "being a heathen" or "praticing heathen arts" are religions. Quite a few of them are simply focusing your central energy towards the most efficient means of doing something. I have news for people like Josh, the true meaning of "heathen" is anyone not a Jew. ::snorts::Well, that leaves us Baptists out of the fold. (I'm a Baptist w/ shaman training) And in any case, I know several Wiccas who a very sturdy Christians, and if you tried to call them other wise, they would knock you from one dimention to another, and then heal you because they felt guilty for doing so. Besides, how many Christians can actually say they do what they say they do? Wars were started over if Mary stayed a virgin or not after Jesus was born. "Holy" Wars where people slaughtered each other were, and to a certain extent, still are a common happening. But what is one of the ten commandments? "Thou shalt not kill." If anything I appluade most Wiccans and the like for actually keeping what they say they do and doing it. My point is, percentage wise, there are more Honorable Wiccans out there than there are honorable Christians and that before Christians go pointing fingers at other groups we ought to start looking at our own religion. ::sighs and blushes slightly:: Look, I don't normally talk much, but get me annoyed, and you will get an ear full. I could have made this post several pages long. I can make a better case supporting the fact that there were -and possibly still are - elves and dragons on the earth than I can that Christ was actually on earth. And I know that I probably annoyed a few other people out there, but really, I don't particularly care. I am Baptist, and we are known for having big mouths and being hellfire and brimstone people. ::chuckles::Sorry. And I do believe in freedom of speech, in case you hadn't noticed, but I also believe that if you are apple trying to tell the orange to be sweet, you are cruising for a bruising. Oh, and I apologize for any misspelled words, I am a chronic bad speller, and if some of that made no sense what some ever. Zhai'helleva Taeyana ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:10:53 GMT From: Healer Althaia To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elvenbane Message-ID: <333776c6.10371322-+AT+-mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote the Darkover novels. Tiger Burning Bright wasn't the best I've ever read (I DID get through it, though). One of the best MZB has done is Exile's Song, the most recent book that's come out in the Darkover series. Somehow I'd gotten it into my head that Julian May was one of the authors of Tiger . . . Must have been thinking of a different series, but I can't ... "Trillium ..." something books? =20 Healer Althaia=09 On Sat, 22 Mar 97 05:41:37 +0000, you wrote: >I've also read those two books, and I LOVE them. I had forgotten about >them, though. =20 . . . However, I tried to read Tiger Burning >Bright (I THINK that was Misty, Norton and someone else-the Darkover = novel >author?), and I couldn't get past the second chapter. Can anyone tell = me if >it WAS written by those three women, and, if so, did anyone like it? > >Sorry this post is so short, listsibs. Sheeps to you all, if you're >bothered by it. Zhai'helleva. > >NightSong > > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6505/ (Updated 22 March 1997) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:18:42 EST From: shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com (Shy V Kraytman) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the religion thread Message-ID: <19970322.003355.8223.7.Shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com> Just to agree on a point that the Eternally Nourish Lee said and to further my previous post from my AOL address (yes, this is me, Lonehawk, under anothername) Josh - where do you get off coming to ME (yes, I'm taking this personally because I'm Wiccan) and asking me to PROVE MY religion? Or even worse - DISPROVE your ASSUMPTIONS on my religion. I don't owe that to you. Nobody does. You give me SOLID, HARD, UNQUESTIONABLE EVIDENCE to support what you are saying, and present it in a way that will not offend anyone, and THEN I'll consider responding to your message in more civilized way. Sorry to take up listspace, but if we're to continue to have a good atmosphere for discussion, we need to get some basic common sense rules of etiquette down. I can't belive this came so recently after all that flame thrown around for The Last Straw posts. Lonehawk (Shyhawk) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 02:05:09 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the religion thread Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Shy V Kraytman wrote: > Josh - where do you get off coming to ME (yes, I'm taking this personally > because I'm Wiccan) and asking me to PROVE MY religion? Or even worse - > DISPROVE your ASSUMPTIONS on my religion. I don't owe that to you. Nobody > does. You give me SOLID, HARD, UNQUESTIONABLE EVIDENCE to support what > you are saying, and present it in a way that will not offend anyone, and > THEN I'll consider responding to your message in more civilized way. Or better yet, take this whole conversation elsewhere. I would like to ask everyone concerned to please take the high-road here and not continue this discussion on the list. Josh is obviously not interested in any kind of rational discussion and to continue to address his post seriously simply validates his position. Rather than responding, a better solution is to simply ask him, privately, to take his flame-baiting elsewhere and then ignore him. If he chooses to continue in his behavior, a final option is for the list to appeal to Mel, as the listowner, to remove him and ban him, on the grounds that he is making the list inhospitable for reasonable discussion of Misty-related topics. At least, in my experience with other lists and online discussions, this has proven to be the best solution. > Sorry to take up listspace, but if we're to continue to have a good > atmosphere for discussion, we need to get some basic common sense rules > of etiquette down. Actually, there are already some basic rules. They are called "Auntie Mel's Rules of Thumb" and the list FAQ posting guidelines. As someone already pointed out (I think it was Lee?), Josh has violated them. However, let's not take that as license to do the same. If people feel that they absolutely must flame him (and I personally don't think there would be a point to it), please do so off-list. Let's not waste band-width and time on this on-list. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:18:24 -0800 To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Benathy Weber Message-ID: <333387BF.5789-+AT+-peak.org> Josh Albers wrote: actually, magic is dealing with Satanism. doing illusions deals with tricking people, but magic is a whole different thing. Magic is basically calling on Satan for his power. All that "playing" magic does is play calling on Satan's power. If you play with fire, it WILL burn you. Wiccans are long gone. They have already given their lives to Satan. Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone else) is Jesus Christ. The church of Wicca is a cult. Scratch that. It is an occult. A cult has plainly led many people the wrong way. An occult plainly worships Satan. If you want to dissprove this, Email me at spockears-+AT+-geocities.com and we can debate this, but the first thing you must do is explain what you do in worship services and I will send you the order of service at my church. I can even scan it in if you want that. Oh my. Is this true, is anyone who can use "Magic" a satanist??? *LAUGHS* the few wiccan friends I have insist that I'm a natural "Witch" that is that I am gifted. I do "Magic" quite naturally, *I* follow Zoroaster's teachings to the best of my abilities. I can believe in a goddess (in fact there are several. Arta Mazda created many Deva to aid him in the battle against Ariman. And before you tell me that I worship Satan, I would remind you that the God of the Jews told Abraham that the Priest of Zalem was his priest too. and the Priest of Zalem was Zoroasterian too. My dear child, Judge not, least ye be so judged. The hebrews once had a Goddess called Shakina, The Mother of the World, The Comforter, God as Woman, and the Holy Spirit. See any familiar titles??? Religon, never get to deep into it, you'll learn that black is white and white is really purple. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 02:55:49 -0500 From: cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Writing traits/religious query... Message-ID: <33339085.2473-+AT+-spectra.net> Jody wrote: > I remember that scene. I found it (personally) extremely offensive, IMHO, one of the things that first got me hooked on Misty was that she took risks with her writing, risks that *I* had never seen. (Not to say that other authors don't take them, this was just in my personal experience) Not only has she written about a homosexual hero, but she puts him through all kinds of hell, *including* a very brutal rape scene. For the first time in my life, I realized that a man can be raped too, and it opened a whole new area of insight. It may be hard to read, but doesn't that make the books so much more real? And her SERRAted Edge books are fairly graphic too, but in the sense that drives a point home. Someone mentioned earlier that few of the other series are discussed here .. good point. She asked for opinions on ElvenBane (which I enjoyed) and I *loved* Tiger Burning Bright. The SERRAted Edge novels are some of my favorites, as are the novels with Korendil, Beth, and Eric... urban fantasy seems to me to be a harder area to write in, but I think she does well. I will miss the Diana Tregarde series because I enjoyed all three of them. :) Are there any authors who write urban fanstasy that anyone can suggest? And didn't she do a collaboration with McCaffrey? I can't remember ... Does anyone have a complete list of books by or co-written by Misty? I would like to know if I'm missing any ... :) And one final question ... someone mentioned (I deleted too soon) that thay had several Wiccan friends who were also strong Christians? Could you reply to me (offlist) how that could be? Not to sound judgemental, I'm just honestly curious because I'm not sure how two viewpoints like that could be reconciled. :) And sheeps to those I annoyed with my sig file .... it's an automated thing but I'll try to delete it before I send. ;) Crystal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 03:26:59 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Various issues on Christians/Misty quality/LHM/anything else I can thinkof. Message-ID: Hmm.. I, myself, am not Christian, I am Wiccan, have been for almost four years and am enjoying it to the hilt. I also, however, have very little issue with Christianity in general, and no issue with Christians in general (sorry, don't remember who said something about reverse bias.. deletitis strikes again. ). The one thing I object to in Christianity is that it seems to me to be rather .. institutionalized, or impersonal because of the fact that it is very much a mainstream religion. Christians in general I have no problem with, I feel that to be biased against Christians is silly, as I feel that being biased towards almost any group on the basis of certain traits is silly. On the other hand, I do have issue with people who are so caught up in their religion, whether it be Christianity, Wicca, Judaism, Islam, or the Church of the Sainted Spoon (don't ask... long story. ), that they try to impose their beliefs on other people. I believe that a person's rights stop when it becomes a burden to other's rights; i.e. I believe that when someone begins imposing their rights on another, that first person is in the wrong. I try not to impose my beliefs on other people, and I think most people try to as well. It's just the few nuts and flakes in the cosmic bowl of granola that make life tough. :) As for Christians and fantasy... well, I've heard of people who believe that, but I don't personally know any. I think it is a tragedy, because fiction is a wonderful break from the stresses and trials of everyday life, but as long as they don't try to burn my books or anything, I feel it's really none of my business. Josh... I will not say to you that your god is my devil, please do me the same kindness. Blessed Be. Apologies to Cen for posting this.. but I was in the middle of the Christianity post when Josh posted... ----- End of Tangent. Hrm... Someone recently mentioned shelling out for SG.. and other poeple have been discussing quality? (I know, I know, I'm behind.. ) IMHO.. SG would have been better off as a short story.. or perhaps a novelette. I liked it, and I thought it was fairly well written, but there didn't seem to me to be enough plot to warrent an entire book. I felt it could have been made much tighter and neater in a shorter format. As far as quality goes.. I think she's settled into a certain quality of writing that is more along the lines of Arrows than of LHM. I also think that this is not necessarily a bad thing. OTOH, I think that she's settled into a sort of creative rut.. the quality of her work is good,but the originality.. isn't. ------ LHM rape scene.. that scene did not offend me as much as disgust me... I wasn't offended by it, I was saddened and disgusted by it.. I'm a bit too cynical to be offended. As far as warnings are concerned.. I'm not sure why LHM would get a warning, other than that it *does* have some fairly contraversial material.. the rape scene.. and the homosexuality, depending on where it's being sold. ------ Free Bards book: Does anyone have any information other than when it's coming out? :) Mmm.. that's about it for now. Also.. going on spring break soon, so I'll be postponing this and MageWars.. And happy full moon/lunar eclipse/Hale-Bopp (hale-bopp.. that's a really funny name for a comet. Bopp!) to everyone! Love, Jaguar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:13:33 -0800 From: "Alexandra Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: rape scene Message-ID: <3333A2BC.2684-+AT+-earthlink.net> I've reading quite a lot of posts that said they are offended by that scene in LHM. All I can say is that I envy your innocence. Not in the sense that you don't know that can happen, but in the sense that you still expect better out of the world at large. The moment the bandits captured Vanyel, I knew it's going to happen. It's almost a forgone conclusion. Life, to me, is a meaningless mess, and we just try our very best to survive and find meaning in it for ourselves. Meaningless suffering is bad, but wouldn't it be worse if suffering in the world actually have a place? Oh, golly gee, what've I done?! How did I get here?! Back to Vanyel. While I agree it's one of the saddest scenes, and the thought that Vanyel have to suffer through this broke my heart, I wasn't offended. Well, that's my two cents worth. Sorry for that off-topic tid-bit. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:24:53 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper To: mercedes-lackey Subject: Religion etc. Message-ID: <199703221124.LAA18101-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Having cheated slightly by checking what's in the queue to be sent out, I notice that enough other people have explained to Josh why his opinion was unsuitable for the list that I don't need to say so myself; so, What They Said. Expressing an opinion about what you believe is just fine. Trying to tell someone else that what _they_ believe isn't fine is not something we do on this list, thank you very much indeed. Mel, listmistress hat firmly planted on head. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:35:24 -0600 From: white To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BeTHaNy Weber Message-ID: <3333EE2A.50CB-+AT+-vianet.on.ca> On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Josh Albers wrote: > actually, magic is dealing with Satanism. doing illusions deals with > tricking people, but magic is a whole different thing. Magic is basically > calling on Satan for his power. All that "playing" magic does is play > calling on Satan's power. If you play with fire, it WILL burn you. > Wiccans are long gone. They have already given their lives to Satan. > Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone else) is Jesus > Christ. The church of Wicca is a cult. Scratch that. It is an occult. A > cult has plainly led many people the wrong way. An occult plainly worships > Satan. OUCH! Josh, as a Christian, as I guess you are HOW COULD YOU!!! Jesus believes in forgivness and understanding WHERE IS YOURS! It is not in MY Belive to JUDGE others ( which is one leg of Christianity) and GOD does not judge he forgives and give hopes. Were not here joined together in a RELIGIOUS debate but in one that brought us together to discuss the fabulous works of Misty, private feelings on your religious belives DO NOT BELONG here! Sorry, to the rest, I know a lot has been already said, but I had to delurk, I just couldn't let one misdirected Christian, speak for all of us. Lythande. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:41:14 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Benathy Weber Message-ID: <3333D35F.6230-+AT+-snet.net> Alright, Mr. Allegedly Intelligent Lifeform who has the audacity to call himself "spockears" of all things, I will state this once and once only. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT TO PREACH ON THIS LIST!!!!! Your opinions are yours, yes. But preaching itself is out. I am a Catholic, non-practicing at the moment and going through a crisis of concience. If you are indeed a TRUE BELIEVER and you certainly present yourself this way, what are you doing on a list that believes that there are many paths to God/dess? Why don't you leave? Why do you read Mercedes Lackey? Forget it. I don't want to know your reasons. I just don't want to hear from you anymore, is that clear enough? Lady Sara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:49:50 -0600 From: white To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:MZB and storm series Message-ID: <3333F18A.3F9-+AT+-vianet.on.ca> To NightSong and Healer Althaia; Re Marion Zimmer Bradley and Darkover, MZB co-wrote Blood Trillium with A. Norton and J.May, then J may wrote Golden trillium and then there is also anotherone...MZB led me to reading Misty and I love them both greatly...The Darkover relm is Fantastic, I just love all the books but find her writing outside of Darkover not my cup of tee, try some more there fantastic.. RE:Misty, Just finished rereading ALL the books I have, thought I had them all but SOI, but then I don't really like anthologies but realized I'm missing my last storm book, how long has it been out in HC?? need to order it...hmmm Lythande. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:49:31 -0500 (EST) From: William L Pomeroy To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Completely UNCALLED FOR!!!!! Message-ID: I completly agree with Tae. Being a Christian with some Wiccan beliefs thrown in for good measure I see alot of what you are talking about. I applaud most other wiccans for practicing what they preach. Although, I must say that I haven't met a priest of ANY religion I didn't like. :) -Bill Bill Pomeroy Greyrose Foundation (508)435-9456 pager: 1-800-393-5943 -+AT+-}~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{-+AT+- | "-BLOODY HELL!" she finished with a wail, throwing up her hands in | | despair, as if in petition to the unseen gods. "Isn't it bad enough | |that I get a lover who takes over my dreams, a talking horse, and a | |uniform like a target? Isn't it enough that I go from being an honest | |mercenary to some kind of do-gooder? Does EVERYTHING in my life have to | |come back and haunt me and TALK IN MY HEAD?" | | | | Captain Kerowyn | | Winds of Fury | | Mercedes Lackey | -+AT+-}~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{-+AT+- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:10:17 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Josh Albers Message-ID: <199703221513.KAA03224-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> he wrote: > actually, magic is dealing with Satanism. doing illusions deals with > tricking people, but magic is a whole different thing. Magic is basically > calling on Satan for his power. All that "playing" magic does is play > calling on Satan's power. If you play with fire, it WILL burn you. > Wiccans are long gone. They have already given their lives to Satan. > Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone else) is Jesus > Christ. The church of Wicca is a cult. Scratch that. It is an occult. A > cult has plainly led many people the wrong way. An occult plainly worships > Satan. what a way to show your ignorance. First, that is an improper use of the word "occult." "an occult" is improper. It would be "a cult." you incredible DOLT! You are obviuosly speaking from ignorance of wicca. Most Wiccans I know don't even believe in Satan. thus how are they calling on him? And not all or even most "magic" type are wiccan! The game "Magic: The Gathering"( which I have observed closely, have you?) has very little resemblance to wicca, and doesn't call on Satan anyway! "Magic is calling on Satan..." how do you get that! ? ! Many things that people do thus are done in the bible by notable religious figures. If you are Christian it's called prophecy or spiritual gifts, and if not it's called the devil, I've maintained that for years. I truly think you should at least make an attempt to know what you speak of. you obviously missed "No One, True Way" big time. -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:20:39 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the religion thread Message-ID: <199703221524.KAA03289-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> Please forgive me for the horrid tone of that last post folks. I sent it off befor eI could calm down (obviously). When I get upset I tend to lose the manners by the wayside. I know it's a habit I need to break. That letter did state how I felt. I realize now though, that I should have sent it off-list. sorry. -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:39:00 +0000 From: "Vrondi" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:MZB and storm series Message-ID: <199703221542.KAA03413-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> white wrote: > The Darkover relm is Fantastic Yes! I love it! I have a number of them from a second-hand bookstore, but does _anyone_ on-list have a list of all the Darkover books? Or where I can find one on the net or something. I love MZB.I also really like her collaborations with Misty. An I thought "Tiger Burning Bright" was quite a lark. because Andre Norton is another one that's right up there. I mean, a book by all three? No way could I resist. -Vrondi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:48:01 -0500 From: "Fawcett, Erika" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Writing traits/religious query... Message-ID: <199703221548.KAA32267-+AT+-postoffice.onu.edu> At 08:26 3/22/97 GMT, Crystal wrote: > The SERRAted Edge novels >are some of my favorites, as are the novels with Korendil, Beth, and >Eric... urban fantasy seems to me to be a harder area to write in, but I >think she does well. I will miss the Diana Tregarde series because I >enjoyed all three of them. :) Are there any authors who write urban >fanstasy that anyone can suggest? Oh, must reply to this one. I'm not a very studious lurker. I love urban fantasy, and so I must suggest a few books. Charles de Lint (my other most favoritest author) writes urban fantasy, I'd suggest starting with "Dreams Underfoot", which is not a novel, exactly, but a collection of interwoven short stories that is absolutly beautiful. Or "Moonheart" if you can find it, I can never remember whether it's still in print or passing out. That's the problem with CDL, quite a number of his older books are out of print, I'm very glad that isn't a problem with Misty. Another good urban fantasy writer who I just discovered is Christopher Moore, I read his "Coyote Blue" and it was wonderful. *Very* funny, and a very good choice to read during exam week when you think you'll never laugh again. Tanya Huff has done a number of urban fantasy novels, "Gate of Darkness, Circle of Light" being my favorite (some day I'll track down a copy of that book). Anyway, did anyone else after reading the Serrated edge and related novles (I love Tannim) feel the need to check if all the tall blond people they saw had pointed ears? That guy who plays guitar on Saturday Night Live is definitly a candidate, as well as David Bowie (my roommate's favorite musician). Anybody else have elf candidates? (something a bit fluffy to ask, I admit, but more fun than religious disscussion) Ca'Canny, ---Erika "Now I know I could have walked through the walls." --The Last Unicorn ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1145 **********************************