MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1146

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: the religion thread
	by Tensen <tensen-+AT+-crow.cybercomm.net>
  2) Intro/Re: Benathy Weber
	by "Catarina " <cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net>
  3) Could we drop this please?
	by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker)
  4) Re: Valdemar questions
	by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker)
  5) Re: Christians/lifebonds
	by "Catarina " <cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net>
  6) urban fantasy book writers
	by Taeyana-+AT+-aol.com
  7) The Tiger novel/ if you want a darkover list
	by dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (forever waiting)
  8) Re: Bethany/TLS
	by "Cindy Meeks" <cmeeks-+AT+-gte.net>
  9) Re: rape scene
	by khu286-+AT+-merle.acns.nwu.edu (Kay Huang Perry)
 10) Re: Bethany/TLS
	by MELVIN NEVERGOLD <web5791-+AT+-charweb.org>
 11) Re: urban fantasy book writers
	by Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
 12) Re: rape scene
	by Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
 13) Re: Bethany/TLS
	by MELVIN NEVERGOLD <web5791-+AT+-charweb.org>
 14) short post
	by Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com
 15) Van out of character and apologies
	by shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com (Shy V Kraytman)
 16) Re: Valdemar questions
	by "Pamela Lunsford" <pam-+AT+-greycat.com>
 17) Re: Various issues on Christians/Misty quality/LHM/anything else I can thinkof.
	by "Pamela Lunsford" <pam-+AT+-greycat.com>
 18) Valdemar's size/McCaffrey collaboration/Free Bards/& other stuff
	by "John and Kara Pekar" <jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:18:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: Tensen <tensen-+AT+-crow.cybercomm.net>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: the religion thread
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970322111554.19637C-100000-+AT+-crow.cybercomm.net>



On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Shy V Kraytman wrote:

> Josh - where do you get off coming to ME (yes, I'm taking this personally
> because I'm Wiccan) and asking me to PROVE MY religion? Or even worse -
> DISPROVE your ASSUMPTIONS on my religion. I don't owe that to you. Nobody
> does. You give me SOLID, HARD, UNQUESTIONABLE EVIDENCE to support what
> you are saying, and present it in a way that will not offend anyone, and
> THEN I'll consider responding to your message in more civilized way.
> 

Hmm, I wonder where Josh would be if he even looked at the cabalistic 
magic system?  This is a system of ceremonial magic whihc is 
Judeo-Christrian.  Hence by his definition of magic, he has proclaimed 
the study of Rabbis and Priests of the higher orders to the worship of 
Satan.  Kinda ironic, don't you think?



                                      Tensen


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 12:18:24 -0500
From: "Catarina " <cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Intro/Re: Benathy Weber
Message-ID: <199703221716.MAA24629-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net>

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> From: Josh Albers <spockears-+AT+-geocities.com>
> To: cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net
> Subject: Benathy Weber
> Date: Friday, March 21, 1997 10:24 PM

I told myself I wouldn't post in responce to such ignorant comments - but I
cannot sit in silence, for that is not my way...

> 
> actually, magic is dealing with Satanism.  doing illusions deals with
> tricking people, but magic is a whole different thing.  Magic is
basically
> calling on Satan for his power.  

 <snort>
Now, to my knowledge Satan is a completely Christian and Jewish belief. 
I'm a very, very new Wiccan, but I've spent my previous thirteen years as a
Jew, and from what I have learned in those years, Judiasm believes in the
power of Satan.  No matter what your priest/rabbi/minister/advisor  tells
you, it is very rare for a Pagan or Polytheistic believer to believe in a
true Satan (one main body of Evil), let alone practice worship to such!
(Well, most Satanic worshipers believe in God, so that *may* be counted as
Polytheistic, but then so would Christianity and Judiasm <g>) There's a
word for the cult worshippers of Satan and the devil in its many forms -
Satanism.  
Magic, or magick ;), is simply an extension of the natrual powers of the
mind, and of the God(s) around you.  I would also like to point out that
Christianity and Judiasm both practice magic....
Was it magic when the golumn came alive?
Was it magic when someone *came back from the dead?*
Was it magic when a staff turned into a snake and a bush lit aflame?
So, Moses and Jesus practiced Satanism?  I don't think so...


>All that "playing" magic does is play
> calling on Satan's power.  If you play with fire, it WILL burn you.
> Wiccans are long gone.

<wave> Yup, I don't really exsist, and neither do many people on this
list.. it's all my vivid imagination...

> They have already given their lives to Satan.

Oh geez, I'm *dead.*  Totally forgot... 

> Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone else) is
Jesus
> Christ.

Yep, the Jewish self-proclaimed son of god, cult leader is going to save me
- after I'm already dead... suuuure...

>  The church of Wicca is a cult.

FWI, *every* religion with a group of followers is a cult... Yes,
technically it's the Cult of Christ... and the Cult of The Choosen... 

>  Scratch that.  It is an occult.  A
> cult has plainly led many people the wrong way. 

<Snicker>  See above...
Gee, I hate not hurting things and people and living freely... Darn it,
where's all my guilt? <g>

> An occult plainly worships
> Satan.

For this I pick up a little thing called a "Dictionary" - you may have
heard of it.
(No, it's not a Wiccan dictionary, it's Websters, and please don't tell me
about the Websters cult conspiracy...)
Occult :1) of, pertaining to, dealing with, or knowledgeable in
supernatrual influences, agencies, or phenomena.  2) beyond the realm of
human comprehension; mysterious; inscrutable  3)  available only to the
initiate; mysterious; secret
cult : 1) a system of community of religious worship and ritual, especially
one focussing upon one deity or spirit  2)   obsessive devotion for one
object, person, or principle  3) the object of such devotion  4)  anm
exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest.

Now, I ask, if Magic is occult and cultry (which, according to the
definician, Christianity clearly *is*),  then what does that have to do
with Satanism?  Neither in Pagan lore or in the current dictionary does it
mention ties between the occult and Satanism.


  If you want to dissprove this, Email me at spockears-+AT+-geocities.com
> and we can debate this, but the first thing you must do is explain what
you
> do in worship services and I will send you the order of service at my
> church.  I can even scan it in if you want that.

Well, I can't quite do that, because I am only starting to be schooled...
I've only proclaimed my faith in the last month, and am not even close to
knowledgable in that area... 
<sigh comes from where the voice has spoke forth from under the pile of
books>
I'd also like to say I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone with this post. 
I only meant to clear the mess up, both in my mind (For writing often sorts
things out, at least for me) and to any who haven't realised it, even
through the mass of post that echoed after the original.

-----

Now, for an intro :)
For any of you that may have noticed, this is my first post on this list.
I'm ashamed to say I've been lurking for two months ... But I do now have a
feel for the list, and am quite interested in the people here, and the
topics discussed.
I've been reading Misty's works for only half a year, but the Valdemar
universe has so encaptured me, I quickly became addicted.  A friend - who
is on this list - introduced me to them, and I'm grateful, for they have
opened my eyes not only to my beliefs, but to my own orientation...
And I'm not afraid to stand up for myself anymore, and not timid to
believe.  And I especially love LHM, for it made me realise that I've been
pulling down an ice dream, and that I've been denying things I've felt for
they aren't proper...  
<scolds self - Sarah, get on with it already ;)>  I'm a highschool student,
female, and a book worm.  I love history, writing, and reading - anything I
can get my reaching hands on.
One last thing before I leave and go to bug my friend (Yeah, you, soul-twin
;).... Any writers out there, I'd be very appriciative if you'd tell me
what highschool courses would help me in my dream of being a writer.
Thank you for listening to my rambling <g>

Sarah Margaret (or Ren`a shena Liha`irden.. ;)


catarina-+AT+-innocent.com
             ----
MiSTie, X-Phile, and Romantic
             ----
if something is worth living for, than it is worth dying for - Catch 22





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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">----------<br>&gt; From: Josh Albers =
&lt;<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>spockears-+AT+-geocities.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt;<br>&gt; To: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; Subject: Benathy Weber<br>&gt; Date: Friday, =
March 21, 1997 10:24 PM<br><br>I told myself I wouldn't post in responce =
to such ignorant comments - but I cannot sit in silence, for that is not =
my way...<br><br>&gt; <br>&gt; actually, magic is dealing with Satanism. =
&nbsp;doing illusions deals with<br>&gt; tricking people, but magic is a =
whole different thing. &nbsp;Magic is basically<br>&gt; calling on Satan =
for his power. &nbsp;<br><br> &lt;snort&gt;<br>Now, to my knowledge =
Satan is a completely Christian and Jewish belief. &nbsp;I'm a very, =
very new Wiccan, but I've spent my previous thirteen years as a Jew, and =
from what I have learned in those years, Judiasm believes in the power =
of Satan. &nbsp;No matter what your priest/rabbi/minister/advisor =
&nbsp;tells you, it is very rare for a Pagan or Polytheistic believer to =
believe in a true Satan (one main body of Evil), let alone practice =
worship to such! (Well, most Satanic worshipers believe in God, so that =
*may* be counted as Polytheistic, but then so would Christianity and =
Judiasm &lt;g&gt;) There's a word for the cult worshippers of Satan and =
the devil in its many forms - Satanism. &nbsp;<br>Magic, or magick ;), =
is simply an extension of the natrual powers of the mind, and of the =
God(s) around you. &nbsp;I would also like to point out that =
Christianity and Judiasm both practice magic....<br>Was it magic when =
the golumn came alive?<br>Was it magic when someone *came back from the =
dead?*<br>Was it magic when a staff turned into a snake and a bush lit =
aflame?<br>So, Moses and Jesus practiced Satanism? &nbsp;I don't think =
so...<br><br><br>&gt;All that &quot;playing&quot; magic does is =
play<br>&gt; calling on Satan's power. &nbsp;If you play with fire, it =
WILL burn you.<br>&gt; Wiccans are long gone.<br><br>&lt;wave&gt; Yup, I =
don't really exsist, and neither do many people on this list.. it's all =
my vivid imagination...<br><br>&gt; They have already given their lives =
to Satan.<br><br>Oh geez, I'm *dead.* &nbsp;Totally forgot... =
<br><br>&gt; Satan has taken them and the only hope for them (and anyone =
else) is Jesus<br>&gt; Christ.<br><br>Yep, the Jewish self-proclaimed =
son of god, cult leader is going to save me - after I'm already dead... =
suuuure...<br><br>&gt; &nbsp;The church of Wicca is a cult.<br><br>FWI, =
*every* religion with a group of followers is a cult... Yes, technically =
it's the Cult of Christ... and the Cult of The Choosen... <br><br>&gt; =
&nbsp;Scratch that. &nbsp;It is an occult. &nbsp;A<br>&gt; cult has =
plainly led many people the wrong way. <br><br>&lt;Snicker&gt; &nbsp;See =
above...<br>Gee, I hate not hurting things and people and living =
freely... Darn it, where's all my guilt? &lt;g&gt;<br><br>&gt; An occult =
plainly worships<br>&gt; Satan.<br><br>For this I pick up a little thing =
called a &quot;Dictionary&quot; - you may have heard of it.<br>(No, it's =
not a Wiccan dictionary, it's Websters, and please don't tell me about =
the Websters cult conspiracy...)<br>Occult :1) of, pertaining to, =
dealing with, or knowledgeable in supernatrual influences, agencies, or =
phenomena. &nbsp;2) beyond the realm of human comprehension; mysterious; =
inscrutable &nbsp;3) &nbsp;available only to the initiate; mysterious; =
secret<br>cult : 1) a system of community of religious worship and =
ritual, especially one focussing upon one deity or spirit &nbsp;2) =
&nbsp;&nbsp;obsessive devotion for one object, person, or principle =
&nbsp;3) the object of such devotion &nbsp;4) &nbsp;anm exclusive group =
of persons sharing an esoteric interest.<br><br>Now, I ask, if Magic is =
occult and cultry (which, according to the definician, Christianity =
clearly *is*), &nbsp;then what does that have to do with Satanism? =
&nbsp;Neither in Pagan lore or in the current dictionary does it mention =
ties between the occult and Satanism.<br><br><br> &nbsp;If you want to =
dissprove this, Email me at <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>spockears-+AT+-geocities.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>&gt; and we can debate this, but the first thing =
you must do is explain what you<br>&gt; do in worship services and I =
will send you the order of service at my<br>&gt; church. &nbsp;I can =
even scan it in if you want that.<br><br>Well, I can't quite do that, =
because I am only starting to be schooled... I've only proclaimed my =
faith in the last month, and am not even close to knowledgable in that =
area... <br>&lt;sigh comes from where the voice has spoke forth from =
under the pile of books&gt;<br>I'd also like to say I'm truly sorry if I =
offended anyone with this post. &nbsp;I only meant to clear the mess up, =
both in my mind (For writing often sorts things out, at least for me) =
and to any who haven't realised it, even through the mass of post that =
echoed after the original.<br><br>-----<br><br>Now, for an intro =
:)<br>For any of you that may have noticed, this is my first post on =
this list.<br>I'm ashamed to say I've been lurking for two months ... =
But I do now have a feel for the list, and am quite interested in the =
people here, and the topics discussed.<br>I've been reading Misty's =
works for only half a year, but the Valdemar universe has so encaptured =
me, I quickly became addicted. &nbsp;A friend - who is on this list - =
introduced me to them, and I'm grateful, for they have opened my eyes =
not only to my beliefs, but to my own orientation...<br>And I'm not =
afraid to stand up for myself anymore, and not timid to believe. =
&nbsp;And I especially love LHM, for it made me realise that I've been =
pulling down an ice dream, and that I've been denying things I've felt =
for they aren't proper... &nbsp;<br>&lt;scolds self - Sarah, get on with =
it already ;)&gt; &nbsp;I'm a highschool student, female, and a book =
worm. &nbsp;I love history, writing, and reading - anything I can get my =
reaching hands on.<br>One last thing before I leave and go to bug my =
friend (Yeah, you, soul-twin ;).... Any writers out there, I'd be very =
appriciative if you'd tell me what highschool courses would help me in =
my dream of being a writer.<br>Thank you for listening to my rambling =
&lt;g&gt;<br><br>Sarah Margaret (or Ren`a shena Liha`irden.. =
;)<br><br><font size=3D2><br><font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>catarina-+AT+-innocent.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-=
---<br>MiSTie, X-Phile, and Romantic<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-=
---<br>if something is worth living for, than it is worth dying for - =
Catch 22<br><br><br><font size=3D2><br><br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></body></html>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:49:09 -0800
From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Could we drop this please?
Message-ID: <1v3MzwHqhpnC088yn-+AT+-cet.com>



Folks could we drop the threads about Christanity please? I'm trying
very hard not to respond in spite of several of you punching my 
anti-protestant (and at least once my anti-heretic) buttons but I would
be happier if these threads would die a sudden death. This is especially
the case as they have migrated to the point where the subject headers
aren't really warning of them any more. (case in point the "history lesson"
thread) 

Odd that nobody has managed to push my Anti-Roman buttons though...

David Tiffany




------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:49:13 -0800
From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Valdemar questions
Message-ID: <3w3MzwHqh53K088yn-+AT+-cet.com>

Adams <tigger-+AT+-deskmedia.com> wrote:
>        How big is Valdemar?

Ah ha! A chance to use my research skills! 
    In Magic's Promise the Herald who is riding dispatches to the Linean 
Border says that there are four Heralds riding that route with one going 
out every 3 days. That means that if Herald A leaves on day one then B 
is on day 4, C on day 7, D on day 10 and A has to be ready to go again 
on day 13. So not more than about 6 days ride (by Companion) from Haven 
to the Linean border. From the map in LHM, I'd say it's about the same 
distance to the Hardorn Border so 12 days ride east to west in Vanyels time. 
   In Arrows of the Queen Talia starts from near the Karsite border and 
rides part of an afternoon to the waystation (Page 19: "The sun was still
relatively high"), let's say that would be one day since she started north
of the border. On day 2 she passes through Sweetsprings at noon and spends
the night a the next Waystation. At noon on the 6th day (end of Chapter 2, 
start of chapter 3) she arives at the village where she meets the female 
Gaurd. From here to Kettlesmith, where shes meets the one-legged gaurd, 
thence to Haven it is unclear, to me at least, how many more days pass 
but lets say 3 to kettlesmith and 2 more to Haven for the sake of argument. 
That makes about 11 days to the Karsite border, presumably at a slower pace.
   To borrow a bit from reatl world history, The Pony Express in the
western US, untill the telegraph did it in, dilivered mail fom St Joseph, 
Missouri to California (aprox 2000 Miles) in about 10 days. So now all we 
need to do is come up with and equation relating horses being ridden as fast
as possible night and day with frequent changes of horse and rider to 
Companions going at a good clip but stopping for the night (twice as fast 
as a horse? One and a half times?) or a Companion sauntering along (still
faster than a horse) so as not to upset a newly chosen herald/child.
    I'd guess Valdemar to be about 600-800 miles east to west (Vanyels time)
and a bit more norht to south.
    I'm late to various things but doesn't Arrow's Flight say how long it's
going to take Kris and Talia to get to thier circut area? Presumably they 
wouldn't be dawdling but they would be held to a slow pace by the Chirras...


David Tiffany, Gollly Typjers

Note: I've been trying to send this for a couple of days, seems my ISP
changed my addy without bothering to tell me so vanyel didn't know me 
even though I was GETTING mail just fine...


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:02:38 -0500
From: "Catarina " <cherenac-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Christians/lifebonds
Message-ID: <199703221800.NAA26465-+AT+-mail.eclipse.net>

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<snip> <snip>

> > I don't understand it.  No one seems to think that a practicing Wiccan
> > "can't" or "shouldn't" read books in which Christianity is the main or
only
> > religion.  No one seems to think that a Jew or a Buddhist can't read
> > fantasy.  Why should this odd predjudice exist both within and outside
> > Christianity?  
> 
> Perhaps because these religions don't have the same attitude towards
> "sin"?  I think that Wicca would have a hard time sustaining a
> proscription against acquiring knowledge.  It would seem to go against
the
> Wicca Rede, among other things.  As for the Jewish and Buddhist readers
of
> fantasy, I haven't talked to enough of them to know whether there is a
> general feeling about fantasy, but I would suspect that strict Buddhists
> would frown on fantasy literature also, as being too much a part of the
> wretched world.  I would like to hear from our Jewish listsibs, however,
> on their experiences with fundamental Jews (hasidim, for example).  But I
> suspect that we would find that devout Jews who are very tied into a
> fundamental interpretation of their religion would also consider fantasy
> to be highly suspect on moral grounds.
> 


Alright, now I'm going to try to keep this short and not expell my life
story.. <g>
>From my experience, Reform Jews (Like my Mother) have no predjudice against
Fantasy - both my Mother's Mom and my Mother have gone as far to buy me
fantasy books, so I doubt there's predjudice.. <g>  They don't, however,
like the fact that I've converted to Wiccan, but that I expect...
However, Orthodox Jews are, in my opinion, much different. My relatives
that are Orthodox have shunned and talked about me, in front of my face,
about such views - evil writing, evil things, etc...
I still can't get it into their heads that Wicca isn't Satanism... nor my
Da's... <sigh>  Families are so hard to deal with sometimes.. <g>
Two posts in one day.. sheesh.. 
;)
 
Wind to thy wings,
Sarah Margaret

catarina-+AT+-innocent.com
             ----
MiSTie, X-Phile, and Romantic
             ----
if something is worth living for, than it is worth dying for - Catch 22


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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">&lt;snip&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br><br>&gt; =
&gt; I don't understand it. &nbsp;No one seems to think that a =
practicing Wiccan<br>&gt; &gt; &quot;can't&quot; or =
&quot;shouldn't&quot; read books in which Christianity is the main or =
only<br>&gt; &gt; religion. &nbsp;No one seems to think that a Jew or a =
Buddhist can't read<br>&gt; &gt; fantasy. &nbsp;Why should this odd =
predjudice exist both within and outside<br>&gt; &gt; Christianity? =
&nbsp;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Perhaps because these religions don't have the =
same attitude towards<br>&gt; &quot;sin&quot;? &nbsp;I think that Wicca =
would have a hard time sustaining a<br>&gt; proscription against =
acquiring knowledge. &nbsp;It would seem to go against the<br>&gt; Wicca =
Rede, among other things. &nbsp;As for the Jewish and Buddhist readers =
of<br>&gt; fantasy, I haven't talked to enough of them to know whether =
there is a<br>&gt; general feeling about fantasy, but I would suspect =
that strict Buddhists<br>&gt; would frown on fantasy literature also, as =
being too much a part of the<br>&gt; wretched world. &nbsp;I would like =
to hear from our Jewish listsibs, however,<br>&gt; on their experiences =
with fundamental Jews (hasidim, for example). &nbsp;But I<br>&gt; =
suspect that we would find that devout Jews who are very tied into =
a<br>&gt; fundamental interpretation of their religion would also =
consider fantasy<br>&gt; to be highly suspect on moral grounds.<br>&gt; =
<br><br><br>Alright, now I'm going to try to keep this short and not =
expell my life story.. &lt;g&gt;<br>From my experience, Reform Jews =
(Like my Mother) have no predjudice against Fantasy - both my Mother's =
Mom and my Mother have gone as far to buy me fantasy books, so I doubt =
there's predjudice.. &lt;g&gt; &nbsp;They don't, however, like the fact =
that I've converted to Wiccan, but that I expect...<br>However, Orthodox =
Jews are, in my opinion, much different. My relatives that are Orthodox =
have shunned and talked about me, in front of my face, about such views =
- evil writing, evil things, etc...<br>I still can't get it into their =
heads that Wicca isn't Satanism... nor my Da's... &lt;sigh&gt; =
&nbsp;Families are so hard to deal with sometimes.. &lt;g&gt;<br>Two =
posts in one day.. sheesh.. <br>;)<br> <br>Wind to thy wings,<br><font =
size=3D2>Sarah Margaret<br><font size=3D2><br><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>catarina-+AT+-innocent.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-=
---<br>MiSTie, X-Phile, and Romantic<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-=
---<br>if something is worth living for, than it is worth dying for - =
Catch 22<font size=3D2><br><br><br></p>
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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:08:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Taeyana-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: urban fantasy book writers
Message-ID: <970322130804_-2106757387-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com>

 Crystal wrote:
> The SERRAted Edge novels 
>are some of my favorites, as are the novels with Korendil, Beth, and 
>Eric... urban fantasy seems to me to be a harder area to write in, but I 
>think she does well.  I will miss the Diana Tregarde series because I 
>enjoyed all three of them. :)  Are there any authors who write urban 
>fantasy that anyone can suggest? 

Okay, I have a couple. One is Tom Deitz, he has written at least one good one
(at least I think so) called "The Gryphon King"
Another one is Rick Cook. Most of his books are more techno-fantasy, his main
series is about a program writer who ends up in another land were magic is
dominant and he eventually ends up figuring out magic the same way he would a
computer program. That series starts (I think) with "The Wizardry Cursed"
If you want to stick to his urban fantasy only, well "Mall Purchase Night" is
one of his. And all of his books are hilarious.
Well, that's my two cents, or authors, rather. ::Grins::

Taeyana


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:12:08 EST
From: dyanalynn-+AT+-juno.com (forever waiting)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: The Tiger novel/ if you want a darkover list
Message-ID: <19970322.131419.11190.0.DyanaLynn-+AT+-juno.com>

I loved the concept of the Tiger novel. But, I did have some problems
with the writting. I could definately tell that it was written by three
people because the breaks in the writting style were so jarring. I wonder
why, when authors colaborate, one person is not chosen who's job it will
be to integrate the styles of the writers. It would make the novels much
more coherent in my opinion. Tiger is a great example. I haven't read it
in a while, but I remember that while I was reading it, it was very easy
to figure out who wrote which character because I was familiar with Misty
and MZB's writting.
If anyone here has read "Black Trillium" there's another good example of
discontinuity in action. I usually don't see that problem in two author
collaborations, only in three authored ones. Too many cooks spoiling the
book?

And about a list of all the Darkover novels? There usually is one in the
newer releases of the books. If anyone wants one I can put one together
to send privately. Please e-mail me if you want it at DyanaLynn-+AT+-juno.com.
Don't post it any request on list because I might not see it.

Kawryathen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 14:57:52 -0600
From: "Cindy Meeks" <cmeeks-+AT+-gte.net>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bethany/TLS
Message-ID: <199703222055.OAA00794-+AT+-smtp.gte.net>

From: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
To: cmeeks-+AT+-gte.net
Subject: Re: Benathy Weber
Date: Saturday, March 22, 1997 1:52 AM


Oh my.  Is this true, is anyone who can use "Magic" a satanist???
*LAUGHS*  the few wiccan friends I have insist that I'm a natural
"Witch" that is that I am gifted.  I do "Magic" quite naturally,
*I* follow Zoroaster's teachings to the best of my abilities.  I can
believe in a goddess (in fact there are several.  Arta Mazda created
many Deva to aid him in the battle against Ariman.

And before you tell me that I worship Satan, I would remind you that the
God of the Jews told Abraham that the Priest of Zalem was his priest
too.  and the Priest of Zalem was Zoroasterian too.

My dear child, Judge not, least ye be so judged.  The hebrews once had a
Goddess called Shakina, The Mother of the World, The Comforter, God as
Woman, and the Holy Spirit.

See any familiar titles???

Religon, never get to deep into it, you'll learn that black is white and
white is really purple.
----------
I've been leaving my $.02 out of this thread.  It seems that several people
have handled 
chastizing (I mean explaining things to) Josh much better than I ever could
have done.
However, I love this post and wish I knew who wrote it.  I was raised under
many
different religions (mom couldn't make up her mind) and I am now beginning
to explore
Wicca.  It appears to me that Wicca is closer to my true beliefs than any
other religion.
Any of the Wiccans on the list.. I'd appreciate your forwarding me in
private any 
suggested reading materials...

However this is not the reason for me to de-lurk on this subject.  A lot of
people on the
list got very angry when TLS was posted for Misty's fans to read.  Many
citing their anger
at it being posted because people on this list, the news groups etc as
being normal fans.  
Then of course this flaming (or flame worthy) post comes out of the
woodwork.  Anyone 
think that maybe she did post it in the right place after all.  

I won't flame Josh for his beliefs.  I feel sorry that he can only see God
in that one way.
I will flame him for sending it to the list as he did.  When we all joined
this list we were 
warned against purposefully inflaming people.  Josh as several others have
said... play
nice or go away.

Again, I love the level headed way that this post was written.  No flames,
no fire... just 
the facts... I applaud you whoever you are.

Rune

Call me Cindy... Call me Rune... I'd sing you a song but can't carry a
tune!!!
Visit my homepage at http://home1.gte.net/cmeeks/index.htm



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 15:33:39 -0600 (CST)
From: khu286-+AT+-merle.acns.nwu.edu (Kay Huang Perry)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: rape scene
Message-ID: <199703222133.AA267866419-+AT+-merle.acns.nwu.edu>

This may have been mentioned already, but doesn't it seem odd or perhaps
just overly used, that most of Lackey's main characters in her early books
who have tragically hard lives get raped at some point in their lives?

Here's the list so far:
Vanyel
Talia
Kethry
Tarma
Idra

Admittedly, the trope seem more overly used before MageWinds and the Storm
Trilogy, but I noticed it originally when Lackey had only written LHM,
Arrows, and the Oath series.  The last sets of books (Gryphon, Mage and Storm)
don't seem to have this scenario played out, though the latter trilogies
seem to have a different writing style as well.  I wonder if rape was
some sore point/important point/other <insert reason here> in her life.

Spencer



------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 16:54:02 -0500 (EST)
From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD <web5791-+AT+-charweb.org>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Bethany/TLS
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970322164825.16814A-100000-+AT+-wilbur>

Sorry about the can of wormss I'd thought my last post explained that we 
were not to berate anyone for their religous beliefs. Evedentally this 
did not get across. I was once married to a "witch" and while I don't 
enspouse (excuse pun) witchcraft I do believe in the exsistance of magic.
I personally think that God (referance to my own) would have forbidden 
that pratice to his followers if it didn't exsist.

		Wiccans usually as a group are not violent of mavichous(bad speell)
	And I do think that the subject should be avoid in all forms.
	
	
			Melvin Nevergold
				Things get out of control!!!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:00:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: urban fantasy book writers
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970322164955.5147A-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 Taeyana-+AT+-aol.com wrote:

> Okay, I have a couple. One is Tom Deitz, he has written at least one good one
> (at least I think so) called "The Gryphon King"

Actually, "Gryphon King" is only one stand-alone work from Mr. Deitz.  He
is probably better known for his books about Davey Sullivan and friends.
They are brilliant, starting with "Windmaster's Bane" and going through
his most recent effort "Ghostcountry's Wrath."  He is one of the few
writers who does really good Native American mythology in his books.
(BTW, this series blends Celtic Faerie with Cherokee cosmology and sets
the whole thing in the Smoky Mountains of Georgia.  Lush!)  He has a
duology, of which I have read the latter book (I forget the title, but it
is something like "Beneath the Green"), which is quite good, though much
darker.  

> And all of his [Rick Cook's] books are hilarious.

Ninja dwarves!  Yeah!  I will second a vote for Cook's work.  I
particularly liked his second book in the Wizardry series.  BTW, for
anyone considering these books, don't be turned off by the term
"hilarious."  They aren't really humor books.  They just have occasional
moments of funniness.  But all in all, they are just good solid
science-fantasy with lots of really good ideas and meaty issues, plus some
wonderful characters and scenes.

Another urban fantasy writer is Steven Brust (both Cigany and The Moon,
the Sun, and The Stars are set in an urban setting).  I have to admit that
I don't like his urban work, but others might.  After all, the whole
genesis of this thread when someone said they like Misty's urban fantasy.
Since I don't like *that*, maybe the fact that I don't like Brust's urban
stuff should be read as a recommendation. =)

May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:17:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: rape scene
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970322170503.5147B-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

Hmmmm.  I probably should have braided this in with my last mail, but I
have been trying to write stuff in between working on my syntax stuff.

On Sat, 22 Mar 1997, Kay Huang Perry wrote:

> This may have been mentioned already, but doesn't it seem odd or perhaps
> just overly used, that most of Lackey's main characters in her early books
> who have tragically hard lives get raped at some point in their lives?

Actually, when you look at the early stages of women's narrative in
fantasy fiction (and Misty was one of the writers who was at the forefront
of mainstreaming women in fantasy), this scenario was so commonly used
that MZB, in her Sword and Sorceress series, took to calling stories "Rape
and Revenge" stories.  Misty's first short story in the Tarma & Keth
series was a R&R story in S&S3.  At the time, there seemed to be the
feeling that you just hadn't earned your union card (Chicks In Chainmail,
Local #148) unless you had been raped and exacted an excruciating revenge. 
Red Sonja, Jirel of Joiry, and most of the early prototypes followed this
same pattern.  And yes, Misty did continue using it long after it had
started to die out of the short-story market (MZB commented in S&S, that
as the series progressed, she received fewer and fewer R&R stories every
year).  The one difference that I can see between Misty and many other
writers is that she always seemed more interested in surviving rape and
the healing afterwards.  Rape and revenge (by the rapee) only figured
strongly in Tarma's life and in Idra's afterlife.

May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd,

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

**http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html**


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:24:22 -0500 (EST)
From: MELVIN NEVERGOLD <web5791-+AT+-charweb.org>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Bethany/TLS
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970322172326.18696A-100000-+AT+-wilbur>

Please if any one has a list of Misty links please send to me e-mail 
privately
	
		Melvin Nevergold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:30:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: short post
Message-ID: <970322173050_954164909-+AT+-emout03.mail.aol.com>

What is the name of Griffon;s companion?
Depending on wich book you check it is either Farist or Harevis.  Any
suggestions as to the cause of this, or should we just add it to the list of
indescrepancies?

Oh, and by the way, I think somewhere Gwena said  "Good done in the name...",
too at one point I'll try to find it somewhere.

Shadowsong

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:04:10 EST
From: shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com (Shy V Kraytman)
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Van out of character and apologies
Message-ID: <19970322.162505.8223.2.Shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com>

	This is a though that had been drifting in and out of my mind
ever since I finished reading LHM series. I have finally come around to
putting this in a question. I am referring to a scene right before
Savil's murder. (excuse lack of texevd - don't have my books available)
The previous two herald mages have already been killed, and she asks Van
for more reinforcement in her shielding and checking her wards. He
assures her that he will do so shortly and leaves, thinking to himself
'what's up with her' (this isn't a direct quote - just crude
paraphrasing) 'must be getting old in her years - getting paranoid that
people are out to kill her.' Of course then she gets killed and the story
goes on and Van feels incredibly guilty. What I want to know is if
anybody else thinks that his thoughts are really out of character here.
	No, before anyone jumps me to defend Vanyel, I would like to
point out that I part of the OAM, and this isn't a critique of Vanyel,
but of Misty's writing. Considering the situation - there are four herald
mages left and two have been killed - I would think it's reasonable for
Savil to ask for his help, and Vanyel loved his aunt dearly and always
took her seriously. Then there's this one part and it seems to stick out
like a sore thumb. Anybody have any comments?
--
	While I'm writing, I would like to take the time to apologize for
flaming so much about the Bethany Weber post. I admit that I got a little
too upset about it and should have toned it down onList. I will not take
back what I said but I do apologize for posting that to the whole list.
:::blushes and cringes remembering Kenny's chastising::: 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shy Kraytman -- Lonehawk2-+AT+-aol.com -- Shyhawk-+AT+-juno.com
	"I'll meet you then, in the time between / Where wilted fields
are evergreen, / Where both the light and dark are keen - / The warming
sun in the cold ravine. / Where long forgotten things are seen, Obsidian
and tourmaline. / With a heart both anguished and serene, / You'll find
me in the time between."
					-Kate Price
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 15:31:50 
From: "Pamela Lunsford" <pam-+AT+-greycat.com>
To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Valdemar questions
Message-ID: <199703222329.PAA06810-+AT+-nic.greycat.com>

On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:28:16 GMT, D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker wrote:
>thence to Haven it is unclear, to me at least, how many more days pass 
>but lets say 3 to kettlesmith and 2 more to Haven for the sake of argument. 

Makes sense.

>That makes about 11 days to the Karsite border, presumably at a slower pace.
>   To borrow a bit from reatl world history, The Pony Express in the
>western US, untill the telegraph did it in, dilivered mail fom St Joseph, 
>Missouri to California (aprox 2000 Miles) in about 10 days. So now all we 
>need to do is come up with and equation relating horses being ridden as fast
>as possible night and day with frequent changes of horse and rider to 
>Companions going at a good clip but stopping for the night (twice as fast 
>as a horse? One and a half times?) or a Companion sauntering along (still
>faster than a horse) so as not to upset a newly chosen herald/child.

  I did some reasearch on the Pony Express and it doesn't look like we can use 
that as a model. Each rider rode for 60-75 miles and rode SIX different horses.
So each horse only had to go flat out for 10-15 miles.

 Rolan took it fairly easy the first couple days but he was in a real hurry
and picked up the pace later. Remember the guard chiding him about it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ninety-eight percent of the adults in this country are decent hard-working,
honest Americans. It's the other lousy two percent that get all the publicity.
But then we elected them - Lily Tomlin
Pamela -- pam-+AT+-greycat.com
http://www.calweb.com/~plunsfrd




------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 15:50:18 
From: "Pamela Lunsford" <pam-+AT+-greycat.com>
To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk" <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Various issues on Christians/Misty quality/LHM/anything else I can thinkof.
Message-ID: <199703222348.PAA06915-+AT+-nic.greycat.com>

On Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:56:26 GMT, Rosario Holsen wrote:
>	Hrm... Someone recently mentioned shelling out for SG.. and other

That was me :)

>poeple have been discussing quality? (I know, I know, I'm behind..
><sheeps>) IMHO.. SG would have been better off as a short story.. or
>perhaps a novelette. I liked it, and I thought it was fairly well written,
>but there didn't seem to me to be enough plot to warrent an entire book. I
>felt it could have been made much tighter and neater in a shorter format.

I did buy it and I didn't think it was as awful as some of the posters felt it was.
I agree that it would have been better in a shorter form. SG tightened up
and published with three or four other short stories would be a collection to
treasure. I liked the glimpses into the city's organization, and the muted
wyrsa were interesting. 

It won't be the first book of hers that I'll pick up when I don't have anything
new to read, but I got more pleasure out of it than I did reading
Corbies or most of The Eagle and the Nightingale.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ninety-eight percent of the adults in this country are decent hard-working,
honest Americans. It's the other lousy two percent that get all the publicity.
But then we elected them - Lily Tomlin
Pamela -- pam-+AT+-greycat.com
http://www.calweb.com/~plunsfrd




------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:07:03 -0500
From: "John and Kara Pekar" <jkpekar-+AT+-crosslink.net>
To: "MISTY" <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Valdemar's size/McCaffrey collaboration/Free Bards/& other stuff
Message-ID: <199703230014.TAA17444-+AT+-sasquatch.crosslink.net>

David Tiffany, I'm not an expert on travel by horse, but at first glance,
your estimates of Valdemar's size, based on travel time, look pretty good. 
If so, Valdemar is a lot bigger than I've been imagining it.  (I've been
picturing it something on the order of Virgina, which isn't any 600 miles
across! Your estimates make it bigger than Pennsylvania, if I'm right on my
mileage estimates. 600 miles = about 10 hours by car driven at 60 mph...
Can someone give us a state or country for comparison?)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Crystal wrote:
>And didn't [ML] do a collaboration with McCaffrey? 

Yes, she did:  _The Ship Who Searched_ was in the "Helga" series.  I liked
it very much, though for some odd reason I tend to forget about it when
looking for something to reread.  Perhaps it wasn't as deep and rich as
many of her Velgarth novels?  I did enjoy the main character, though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Has anyone heard anything further on _The Free Bards_?  Is it a
single-author story, or a collaboration?  Is it a novel, a collection of
short stories, or an anthology?  Is it coming in hardcover or paperback? 
(If any of these questions have already been answered, please forgive me. 
Although I think I'm now getting the full quota of list mail, it still
sometimes arrives very much out of order.  On Friday I received two of my
own posts -- one was 5 days old, the other over a week old.  Weird.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not going to weigh in any further on the religion and fantasy thread,
except to express my appreciation to the vast majority of you who made it
an enjoyable, nonjudgemental topic of discussion, and who answered some of
my questions about various religions and their attitudes to fantasy.  I'm
only sorry that the attitudes of one or two individuals, so negatively and
judgementally expressed, have left anger, bitterness, and exasperation in
their wake.  If I have any responsibility for this, since I more-or-less
started the whole thread, I apologize most deeply.  I have nothing but
respect for and sincere interest in the faith and beliefs of each of you,
and I honor your choices in that regard.  Thank you again for sharing a
little of your beliefs and experiences; you have enriched my understanding
and my own faith by doing so. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks to everyone who submitted ideas on where to find the "good done in
the name ..." quote in the Storm books.  (Would the person who actually
found and quoted it please resend to me privately?  Somehow, your post got
deleted -- not by me, I promise.)  I appreciate the effort, and that was
indeed a reference to the idea I was discussing.  Unfortunately, it wasn't
the particular quote I was after!  I'm positive that words very similar to
the following were used prior to the Storms books, but I'm still not sure
where:

"Good done in the name of evil is still good, and evil done in the name of
good is still evil..."  

My offer of a batch of sheep in your favorite flavor still stands if you
can find the above quote in those exact words (or very nearly.)  Good luck!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm going to be a bit less "vocal" for  a while... I'm currently jobless,
and trying to get a freelance career off the ground.  (Anybody need a good
index written? <grin>)  I've been spending a bit too much time reading and
replying to this list, so I'm going to have to budget my time a bit more. 
I'll still be here, though, and I'll still throw in the occasional 3 page
essay :-), just not quite as often!

Wind to thy wings, listsibs.

Kara
"So many books, so little time"



------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1146
**********************************