MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1171 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Braid by White 2) Re: Hearald-Mages by Kehinde-+AT+-aol.com 3) Re: Braid:Chosen/ Alberich/Hearald-Mages by Kehinde-+AT+-aol.com 4) Re: k'Treva by Azreil1997-+AT+-aol.com 5) Chosen, mages, and such. by Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com 6) Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... by Virginia Eveland 7) Re: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... by Kehinde-+AT+-aol.com 8) Re: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... by Megan Schreiber 9) FLUFF, Herald-Mages, Mindspeech, and other stuff by "Alex Y. Kwan" 10) Question/Mage gifts/MO Bonding by texs72-+AT+-webtv.net 11) Re: Chosen, mages, and such. by John Hagen 12) Catching up Part 2:heredity/pregnancy by "Creature & Co." 13) Re: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... by LrdTrebor-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: Chosen, mages, and such. by LrdTrebor-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:45:09 -0600 From: White To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid Message-ID: <33512976.3017-+AT+-vianet.on.ca> cjkocher-+AT+-spectra.net wrote: Greetings listsibs .. all newbies ..pay attention... this is what we call a braid. ;) > That's all for now. Again, newbies ... *please* follow the Rules > concerning postings .... it's a pain to wade through 25+ messages in the > morning, most of which are one-liners. Caramel-flavored sheeps to > all... ;) > > Crystal And for those who don't wish to braid, its not everyones answer.. I find the messages long and tiresome at best and the message gets lost..all and all.. Lythande ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:31:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Kehinde-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hearald-Mages Message-ID: <970413143012_-1167959406-+AT+-emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-12 20:04:09 EDT, you write: << The suggestion in the last Magic book is that the Mage Gifts are hereditary. The enemy that he is fighting has been detecting and systematically killing off the children who show signs of the Mage Gift. As a result, those genes are being eliminated from the population of Valdemar. By eliminating these children (and their off-spring), he's ensuring that in his next re-incarnation, there will be no one with the magical power to oppose him. >> Except it fails to account for people who have the genes for the Gift only the trait is recessive, bastard children such as Jisa, and Valdemerians interbreeding with Gifted from other lands. I think he was just trying to get them early, before they could defend themselves, so they wouldn't trouble him later. I don't think he was that concerned about future generations. After all, if he was around for it to be a problem, he could just keep on doing what he had been doing with Gifted kids. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:45:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Kehinde-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid:Chosen/ Alberich/Hearald-Mages Message-ID: <970413144412_283608409-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-12 21:48:05 EDT, you write: << I always thought that the reason that Stephin could not come imediently to the Forest OF Sorrows was because he had to do the work of convincing the Bardic Circle to begin the process of using thier Gifts to influence people to Forget about the Hearald Mages except in a past tense sort of way. . . like a compusion to ignor it and to not say anythin about it >> I think he had to convince them to convince people to accept Heralds and trust them as much as they did Herald Mages. Let's me look it up. Okay... "You have to use your Gift to convince the people of Valdemar that the Gifts of Heralds are enough to keep them safe." -- Magic's Price. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:10:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Azreil1997-+AT+-aol.com To: Kalishanra-+AT+-aol.com, mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: k'Treva Message-ID: <970413161042_-735251374-+AT+-emout17.mail.aol.com> thanx, i really enjoyed your post. I knew that the tayledras moved around in the uncleansed lands, however i did not realize how far north they traveled, or the distances that they covered when they moved. this is sorta obselete considering the ending of the Storms trilogy, but what would the Tayledras/ Star-Eyed do when all rouge magic was cleansed from Velgarth? would the different clans have reunited? of established seperate city-states? etc? -ashanti ps. sorry the preceeding paragraph was a bit person specific, but i was in a rush and stuck the two messages together. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Glithoniel-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Chosen, mages, and such. Message-ID: <970413214557_144809868-+AT+-emout07.mail.aol.com> Jaquelle wrote: >>Wait a sec....Heralds are already Chosen....or am I misunderstanding? I read that to mean that she was going to search for Mages that would be Chosen...<< She said it would be best if they could find a mage willing to come back to Valdemar. Ideally, this mage would then be Chosen. Here's the text evd! "For one thing, he's going to need a pretty good set of ethics. He'll have to be able to get along with people. He'll have to know when _not_ to use his power. And most especially, he'll have to be someone who would never, ever abuse either his power or position. In other words, he would, for all intents and purposes, be as much like a Herald as possible. And ideally, really, he would be Chosen as soon as Elspeth returned to Valdemar with him. That would be perfect." --pg 50, _Winds of Fate_, SFBC edition. ******* Morning Star wrote: >>If one does, it will probably be a "loner" type, more like Wintermoon than Darkwind, one not vital to the clan--and one who does not really seem to "belong" in the clan.<< IMO, I think that Wintermoon is as essential to the clan in his way as Darkwind was. Wintermoon performs a crucial function. A clan functions as a unit. Everyone has an assigned task and must perform that task or risk the destruction of the whole clan. That is why k'Sheyna was in such trouble--they'd lost their artisans and most of their mages. The remaining clan had split into two opposing factions--mages against scouts. Falconsbane might easily have succeeded if events(and the Goddess) hadn't conspired against him. Divide and Conquer is by no means a new strategy. As to why Darkwind wasn't chosen, perhaps he--and all the others mentioned--simply didn't possess the Gift that allows the Chosen and the Companion to create the soul bond between them. Somewhere in _Arrows of the Queen_(Talia's orientation class perhaps?), someone mentions that this is the one gift all Heralds have. Without out the Gift that allows them to bond to a Companion, even a person of flawless character is not eligible. That same gift may explain why lifebonds are more prevalent among Heralds. ******* Crystal said: >>I suspect that a deity had their hand in the lack of active, mage-gifted Heralds ... maybe because the comparisons between Herald-Mages and Heralds was getting out of hand?<< To which Healer Athaia replied: >>The suggestion in the last Magic book is that the Mage Gifts are hereditary. The enemy that he is fighting has been detecting and systematically killing off the children who show signs of the Mage Gift. As a result, those genes are being eliminated from the population of Valdemar.<< You took the words right out of my mouth. Mage gift is rare in Valdemar. The one person we know who possesses it (Elspeth) is a direct descendant of Vanyel and has outland ancestors(her father was Rethwellan). I'm willing to bet that most current mage or mage-potential people in Valdemar have at least two of the following elements in their pedigree: an ancestor with powerful mage talent, outland bloodlines, frequent intermarriage in their family. Also consider the re-emergent time, Vanyel died nearly seven hundred years before present day in the series. It took that long for a sufficient number of potential mages to re-emerge in the gene pool. ******* Ok, time to put the soapbox away for this week Lady Glithoniel Mistress of Willowhawk, Goddess of Tardiness "And miles to go, before I sleep." --Robert Frost ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:11:53 -0400 From: Virginia Eveland To: Mercedes Lackey Discussion List Subject: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... Message-ID: <3351A079.F217A3-+AT+-erols.com> Hi, Just a little ol' newbie floating into your mists, pay no mind...except for the question! For anyone at all interested... Stafford, Va, USA Female, 17, working as Tech Support for ISP All else in sig ;) And now, the question! This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me for a week now... In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy? -- Virginia Eveland SYX, AGML, LGW, BLA, OBSSE, GAWS Pretender, Bab5, and Misty Fan, Mill and XF Fanatic "If you're falling off a cliff, you may as well try to fly, you've got nothing to lose..." Captain Sheridan, Babylon 5 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:27:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Kehinde-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... Message-ID: <970413232654_312460537-+AT+-emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-13 23:23:56 EDT, you write: << It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he isn't killed he never seems to age >> He's immortal. I never caught that. While we're on the topic, if the Companion of the Monarch's Own normally Chooses a Herald, does it mean the Monarch's Own normally has two Companions? Or is the first bond broken? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:57:32 -0600 From: Megan Schreiber To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970414035732.0068a598-+AT+-cougarnet.byu.edu> At 04:53 AM 4/14/97 +0100, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-04-13 23:23:56 EDT, you write: > ><< It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a > Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he > isn't killed he never seems to age >> > >He's immortal. I never caught that. While we're on the topic, if the >Companion of the Monarch's Own normally Chooses a Herald, does it mean the >Monarch's Own normally has two Companions? Or is the first bond broken? No, the Monarch's Own is -not- immortal. It says in AoQ that he can be killed. Read the part with Teren's orientation lecture, I don't have books with me. However, whenever he (always male) is killed, another comes to replace him. That's why they have different names. They're different Companions. Not the same, immortal Companion. And as for the second question, I get the idea that the first bond is broken. Think about the bit about how Jisa's first Companion wouldn't be a bonded choosing because she was going to be Monarch's Own. So perhaps the one who will be MO just never has a very close bonding with their Companion in the first place. Hey, the Companions are apparently taken care of by a divine source and they don't screw up. At least not usually. So I think they can take care of things so they work out for the better. Wyvern http://www.byu.edu/~mschreib ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:36:25 -0700 From: "Alex Y. Kwan" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: FLUFF, Herald-Mages, Mindspeech, and other stuff Message-ID: <3351D068.4C78-+AT+-earthlink.net> Hi, this first thing is kinda off-list, but it's still about Misty's work. How do I join the Order of Amber and Marigold? On the posts for newbies about the orders and stuff, Cennydd didn't provide the address for this. (Or is there a address...) I simply didn't understand what people don't understand about Herald-Mages after Vanyel... Yes, I think the Mage-Gift can be inherited (sp?). After all, Brightstar, Vanyel's son, has as powerful Gift as his 'biological father.' In fact, in MPromise, Yfandes made a joke about how Vanyel should charge money for his 'breeding' services. And that if the silver eyes, the beautiful black hair (always hate it that Vanyel just *has* to lose his raven black to silver white, though it matches his eyes), and the Mage-Gift 'breed true,' then Vanyel should charge extra. So I think the Mage-Gift *is* in the genes. But just because Learath (sp?) killed one generation of Mage-Gifted doesn't mean he wiped all 'real' magic out of Valdemar for about five hundred years. And also, there's still kids showing up as Mage-potential at the times around Vanyel's death. So those can have children that are Mage-Gifted. It just that no one can recognize the Mage-Gift, so they trained it as ForeSight/FarSight (I forgot which they usually train it as). Elspeth (in Winds of Change) is treated differently because the Heralds finally realize that Elspeth has the *Mage-Gift* instead of (or in addition to) ForeSight/FarSight. One more thing. Natoli (sp?) from the MageStorms series isn't Choosen because she isn't Gifted in any Mind-magic or 'real' magic! Only the ones with Gifts can be Choosen. She's great person, but it wouldn't work. Another part is that her role as artifier (sp?) is much, much more important than she could be as a Herald. A Companion and a set of Whites don't mean the person can deal with absolutely any situation. Heralds isn't the answer to everything. Last question. How does each type of Mindspeech work? Using Vanyel and Stef as example, why can't Stef and Van share minds? Van has both Thought-sensing *and* Projection, which would mean he *can* Mind-speak to Stef (like push the thought in?) and 'pick up' the answers from Stef's mind. Which would mean that they can share both thoughts and emotions (emotions obviously through the lifebond). So, why does it seem that they can't? Oh, well. I can't think of anything else to say and I've rambled on enough. In fact, you're really weird if you actually read to here, but! Sheeps to anyone annoyed. from little alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:07:23 -0400 From: texs72-+AT+-webtv.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Question/Mage gifts/MO Bonding Message-ID: <199704140807.BAA00377-+AT+-mailtod-102.bryant.webtv.net> Heyla all! I thought that I would put my two cents in! ************************************************** But first, a question. Can anyone remember the passage where Mornelithe Falconsbane is remembering his past lives? I remember Leareth and Ma'ar, but the others...? ************************************************** About the killings of the mage-gifted children et al. IMO it was not so much as getting rid of the gifted for the future or for making sure the gift would "die" out. I believe that Leareth went around killing the gifted, young and old alike, inorder to insure that when his army swept down from the north, Valdemar would be defenseless. Remember, he didn't just kill the gifted children, he made sure that all of the gifted adults were killed also. That way he would at least insure a few years of uncontested conquering of Valdemar, before anyone was strong enought to challenge him. I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but that is MHO. *************************************************** Wyvern, you said "So perhaps the one who will be MO just never has a very close bonding with their Companion in the first place." Were you speaking of all cases or only in the unbonded cases? Talia has an extremely tight bond with Rolan, as shown in the Arrows trilogy. I can't put my hands on the book, but I remember they tested the bond and even with Talia's shields up, Rolan was still with her. I'm not sure if I understood you correctly (it is 3:30 am here and my brain is mush!) **************************************************** I think that is it, forgive me if it is not coherent. I wanted to get it all down before I forgot everything I wanted to say! Blessings! Texie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:36:18 -0400 From: John Hagen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Chosen, mages, and such. Message-ID: <335216AD.7DA6-+AT+-snet.net> As far as Tayledras being Chosen or not, according to the QO Herald Persona Rules, _no_ Tayledras or Shin'a'in can be Chosen. They have other tasks that they must do in the Velgarth Universe. As far as Mage Talent in Valdemar goes, I agree with Lady Glithoniel. It makes sense that the people with the talent would either migrate out of Valdemar or had ancestors with mage gift and/or an outland parent somewhere. Lady Sara, Dryad Extraordinaire & LIG Hopeful Diety of All Marsupials, Past, Present, and Future ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 01:31:37 -0500 From: "Creature & Co." To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Catching up Part 2:heredity/pregnancy Message-ID: <199704141235.IAA24297-+AT+-sirocco.CC.McGill.CA> Part two of my catching up! One last list-related message (I hope). Please, please, please write your name and addy at the end of all your messages. Not everyone's mailer tells them who sent the message to the listproc, so it frustrates anyone trying to attribute your quotes or to respond in private. Oh, and I'm sorry for re-posting the NewbieFest, but if you read it, you would find some things not in Cenn's (we weren't editing in tandem, obviously). Turns out that Cenn's remailing of the Nfest was the first thing to get bounced when my server went down. Funny, neh? !)(%&)(!$#*%!_#*%_*! MAGE GIFT AND HEREDITY Oooh! The only part of Bio I like! Genetics! (Shy, remember me complaining how hard it is to get virgin females?) As I remember, Leareth was killing children in Valdemar the instant their Mage Gift turned from Potential to Active Gift. So, you could say the people who had it in potential (without activating with maturity) had the gift in a recessive form. Or, it could be that the Mage Gift is determined by more than one set of genes? Hmmm. I would have to say that the potential would be determined by genes (genotype) and the actuall presence or absence of the gift would be due to a combination of genes and environment (phenotype). <----- sidebar: anyone else get irritated by those commercials that say things like, "Men, do you think you're losing hair because your father did?" Not true, not true! Pattern baldness is on the X chromosome. A male *cannot* get it from their father! It just will *not* happen! Ahem. I'm okay, really I am. end sidebar-----> As an example, if you take two peas from the same pod (i.e. same genetic nature and genotype), and put one in sunlight and water it well and put the other in a closet (no, not *that* closet, sheesh!), they will not be the same. They have the same *potential* but the interactions between their potential and environment will give them different characteristics (this combination of genotype and environment is known as phenotype). So, what would be *genetically* passed along would be the Mage *Potential*. Who knows, maybe it's the production of a certain enzyme (determined genetically on a totally unlinked chromosome) that determines whether a Gift becomes active or not. So, no, Leareth was not wiping out mages for his future incarnation. Rather, he was getting rid of the competition before they had a chance to learn to fight (much less that they could). Once he became overlord of Valdemar (why? Don't ask me), he could then either continue killing them off at activation, or start recruiting them and add them to his cadre of pet mage/slaves. !(*%_*$#_!*_&$#!_ PREGNANT MAGES (not Mares, but Mages) I can't remember who started this up, but I will say there have been some wonderful quotes on this topic. I haven't seen my own pov mentioned, so I guess I'll impose it on 'ya =) I noticed some people were assuming it would be bad for a woman to use the slightest bit of their gift while pregnant. I didn't feel that way, however. I'm gonna use Van as an example, even though he was male and wasn't ever pregnant (as far as I'm aware, at least). Remember how the only times Van damaged his channels and hurt himself seriously was when he channeled *raw* node energy through his system, pulling down all resistance so it would go through him into his opponent, dissipating as little as possible (if you're into Electronics, think current = potential / resistance, and that current, not potential, kills). This makes me think that only if a gift were going haywire or the mother were handling raw power through her body (and, by extension, through her fetus) would there be any danger to her fetus. Somebody (sorry, but the delete-finger struck again) brought up the quote from MPawn where they have to deal with the coldrake, and one of the Mage's is pregnant, and Savil says, "Good heavens! Tie that woman down!" or something to that point. I agree with whoever it was who said, just like an ungifted person, you want to avoid causing undue excitement in an expecting mother. I can see how Tarma would take that treatment, though (disregarding the fact that she is *completely* asexual, and wouldn't be pregnant in the first place). She wouldn't let it stop her one bit. That's it for me, folks! Oh, and hey! Cennydd, Auntie Mel, and I are currently working on making the NewbieFest even more accessible than it is (seeing how many times my puter crashed recently). And I'll have a new sig to celebrate when it comes out. Ahem. Bad. I was not thinking in that gutter. Oh, and yes, I'm working on that naming ceremony. Really! Promises! If you made it all the way down here, help yourself to one of my comfy bed-side reading sheep. Interpret that however you will. *snicker* love, Deniz Sarikaya, High Priestess of | Confused about anything on this list? Procrastination, Holy Custodian of | Mail me and ask for the NewbieFest! the B-Day List, Dame of the OoAM, | "I have a bucket and three baseball and Demon of Deceitful Aliases. | bats." -- 3rd Rock From the Sun >dsarik-+AT+-PO-Box.McGill.CA< >freakola-+AT+-geocities.com< >http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/9359/< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:29:21 -0400 (EDT) From: LrdTrebor-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hi, Newbie, with (I hope) a new question... Message-ID: <970414092902_-133469743-+AT+-emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-14 08:04:33 EDT, you write: << While we're on the topic, if the >Companion of the Monarch's Own normally Chooses a Herald, does it mean the >Monarch's Own normally has two Companions? Or is the first bond broken? >> As this thread was done over a year ago I want to see your awnsers before I post our old conclusions. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:32:03 -0400 (EDT) From: LrdTrebor-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Chosen, mages, and such. Message-ID: <970414093153_-99916717-+AT+-emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-14 09:03:45 EDT, you write: << As far as Mage Talent in Valdemar goes, I agree with Lady Glithoniel. It makes sense that the people with the talent would either migrate out of Valdemar or had ancestors with mage gift and/or an outland parent somewhere. >> I strongly disagree. Point in fact the Royal household? Has everyone forgotten Elspeth? And who her ancester is? There had to be a mage gift (unused) somewhere down the line. I don't think her father was the focus point of that one, but could be as he was an outlander. ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1171 **********************************