MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1211 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Casting and 'Dark Is Rising' by Petri Peltonen 2) Re: Age, gays, casting, stuff... by Petri Peltonen 3) Hertasi Hearalds by 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 4) Newbie/Lurker's Take on Casting by AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com 5) Dark Is Rising /Gay by 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 6) Age by Mom2AnN-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: Cruise, Talia, Cooper by BluEyesTB-+AT+-aol.com 8) Re: Score, age, casting by Mark & Tracy 9) Too much to list. Some gripes though as well. by "Joe Lackey" 10) scoring by nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) 11) cessation of casting (was Long Braid) by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 12) Gays/Age/More Gays by FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com 13) Re: Age, gays, casting, stuff... by Elisiande-+AT+-aol.com 14) RE: Cruise, Talia, Cooper by "H. Torrance Griffin" 15) Re: Animation by "H. Torrance Griffin" 16) Looking "-----" (was: Looking Gay) by davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) 17) Re: Newbie/Lurker's Take on Casting by Tensen 18) Re: Gay by Tensen 19) re: gay by "John and Kara Pekar" 20) Re: scoring by Sandra K Haas 21) Ramblebraid: Age, Sexuality, Casting, Views, Dark Rising, by MorningStar 22) Braid: gays, sexuality by debh-+AT+-skypoint.com (Deb Harrington) 23) Re: Gay by debh-+AT+-skypoint.com (Deb Harrington) 24) Re: Braid: gays, sexuality by BluEyesTB-+AT+-aol.com 25) Re: Companions Mind Speech by "JAIME HATHAWAY" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:48:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: Petri Peltonen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting and 'Dark Is Rising' Message-ID: <199705210648.JAA05739-+AT+-hkkk.fi> Jess wrote: *snip* > with whether they looked the part or not. Anyways I have to agree finding > good enough actors to make everyone happy may be next to impossible. Another listmember and I were discussing this in private email and he suggested that relatively unknown actors or actors right from school could be used. We agreed that there propably is no-one among the 'hot' actors that would fit the part and the ones that can be found would propably bring along too strong a taint from their previous works... plus they would be absolutely too expensive. Selene asked: > PS (fluff) Anyone read Susan Cooper's _The Dark is Rising_ ummm... > quintology(? What do you call a story set in five books?) Just wondering. I > think Merriman Lyon would be good for Jadus. Then again, maybe not. He might > look a little too fierce... Yes! I love that series!!! But I do agree, Merry would propably look way too fierce for a relatively gentle person (well, that's the way I always pictured him) like Jadus. Zhai'helleva Petrie -- ****************************************************************** * Petri O Peltonen * Animals, * * Helsinki School of Economics * who are not penguins, * * Administration Office * can only wish they were. * * ppeltone-+AT+-hkkk.fi * - Chicago Reader 10/15/82 - * ****************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:43:13 +0300 (EET DST) From: Petri Peltonen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Age, gays, casting, stuff... Message-ID: <199705210743.KAA08005-+AT+-hkkk.fi> Issica asked re: casting thread: > Had this topic really never come up before?? Yes, and if any other list I'm on can be used as indicator, it will come up time and time again, at least once a year or so, possibly more often, as it seems this list is getting quite a few new members all the time. So I think you, and all the others just have to try and endure the ordeal. :) Windstorm wrote re: Dark Is Rising: > I love those books! Too bad Susan Cooper didn't continue the series. I = > would've loved to know what happens after the battle. My favorite = > character was Bran. so nice... I Well, all the children forgot totally all the brouhaha that had happened, except for Will, obviously, but they stayed as friends and lived happily mundane and uneventful lives ever after. I liked the ending... it left room for me to imagine what could and would happen in the future. I don't think there should be written any sequels to the series, it would IMHO spoil the ending. We were disgussing this ending and sequel thing in Pandemonium List, devoted to Melanie Rawn's work, and I think same holds true for for example her Dragon Prince series. A sequel would totally ruin a beautiful ending, even if there were some threads left dangling. little Alex wrote: > Which sort of bring me into the next question. One interesting > observation I made is that most male Misty readers are gay. Do anyone *snip* Well, maybe it's because her handling of homosexuality in her books. I think a gay person would be more likely to read such books and enjoy them. Of course I'm not saying a heterosexual couldn't or wouldn't, but I think the effect on the reader would not be the same. Cennydd wrote: > Petri (I think) wrote in asking that the casting thread be dropped. *snip* I did no such thing. someone (sorry, deleted accidentally the originally message) asked: > > Also, are most of us here (as on this mailing list) teenagers or at > > most in their twenties? I'm 28 years old, turning 29 come June, but for some reason I like to tell people I'm 30 (weird, ain't I? :)) Maybe I've got some kind of trauma, always being the youngest among my friends. :) Cennydd wrote also: *snip* > deep and abiding homophobia. In fact, for most of the kids who use "gay" > to mean "uncool," the connection between that "gay" and the sexuality > kind of gay is not every something they think of at the conscious level. > Calling them bigots may be a bit extreme. It makes me sad when I see little kids playing on the sand pit (5 yeasr old, max.) and yelling at each other "Homo! I hate you! I won't play with you ever ever ever again!" when they a quarrel over some thing that children usually quarrel over. And they have absolutely no idea what the word means. They have only heard it used somewhere in some context that implies that its something bad, so they use it when they want to insult someone real bad. And the other kid yells back "Your mother is a homo, dork!" or something similar (to explain a bit, here in Finland word homo is used almost explicitely of gay males, female homosexuals are as explicitely lesbos, so calling someone's mother homo just shows they don't have absolutely no idea what they're talking about). Sad, real sad. Zhai'helleva, Petrie -- ****************************************************************** * Petri O Peltonen * Animals, * * Helsinki School of Economics * who are not penguins, * * Administration Office * can only wish they were. * * ppeltone-+AT+-hkkk.fi * - Chicago Reader 10/15/82 - * ****************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:02:34 +0100 From: 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Hertasi Hearalds Message-ID: <37A13281853-+AT+-ghondr.mmu.ac.uk> On Tue, 20 May 1997 13:25:00 +0100 (BST) FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com Wrote . > > Peregrine said: > > Last I don't think any hertasi has > > ever felt enough loyalty to make a good chosen. > > What about Gesten (sp?) Amberdrake's Hertasi? There was also Gervase [sp?]. The Wizard Lizard. When Keth is telling the Li'her'ian [sp?] the story in Oathbound. Just before they leave the Plains. Gervase was very out going and had an extremely good nature, he wanted to help people that is why he chose to have his Mage gift openned rather than being made human. He then became the top Mage of White Winds. I think Gervase would have been a very good candidate for being Chosen. [JMHO] ************************************************ Zha'hai'allav'a Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras Kal'enedral [OIB](AKA Jason Stokes) 95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk "If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here While these visions did appear". *Puck, Midsummer Nights Dream* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:32:55 -0400 (EDT) From: AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Newbie/Lurker's Take on Casting Message-ID: <01IJ4EBA69E69NBL7J-+AT+-delphi.com> Animated Heralds---I could go for that as long as they kept strictly to the books and did it as a thing for adults--ie, as intelligent as a live-action movie, without the over-acting and medodrama you go so much of in animated stuff. I vote for whoever did _The EYES of Mars_ to animate Misty's books. (g) That is one of the most beautifully animated pieces I have ever seen. ShadowWolf--Hope to see you again soon! (Hugs) Jennifer Gogarten--Yes! Someone else who likes Jokser! Do you like Salmonius, too? Chantal/Aerden Interim Avatar of Stupid Chess Moves :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:57:55 +0100 From: 95662014 <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Dark Is Rising /Gay Message-ID: <37AFF885BAB-+AT+-ghondr.mmu.ac.uk> On Tue, 20 May 1997 14:24:33 +0100 (BST) Selene Tan Wrote > > PS (fluff) Anyone read Susan Cooper's _The Dark is Rising_ ummm... > quintology(? What do you call a story set in five books?) Just wondering. I > think Merriman Lyon would be good for Jadus. Then again, maybe not. He might > look a little too fierce... I love those books. I first read them about 10 years ago, I got them from my school library. The first of them I read was The Grey King then I went and found the others, bought them and read them in order. I think the first thing that got me reading the Grey King was the fact that it was set in Wales [ where I am from]. In the book shops here they are in the childrens section for some reason. I am now rapidly approaching 26 and I still love them and I think many other "adults" would too. On Wed, 21 May Ken Hyde wrote > Almost any queer person, if they are being honest, will tell you > that there really is such a thing as gaydar and you frequently can > tell that someone is gay, just by looking at them. I totally agree with this. Since being in university my gaydar has been in overdrive. Last year I was working in an office where 1/3 of the work force was gay. There where a couple of "bitchy queens" who would sit there comment whenever a new batch of people started there. When I started there there was a split vote. I walked in wearing black jeans, a Rocky Horror T-shirt and black boots with two buckles on them:- Queen 1 " He Is" Queen 2 " Get lost. He's not" 1 " Look what he's wearing for Gods sake. He's screaming" Apparently that was the conversation they had. Later that week I was in one of the clubs and bumped into the one that thought I wasn't. He nearly had a heart attack. The following day he went into the office and Went off about who he had seen the night before. Gaydar is not infalable sometimes it's wishful thinking but on the whole we can usually spot our own. One of my friends from the LGB group here used to play on the rugby team. He was so [ fill in as you see fit] when the other players would make gay jokes on the bus back from games. None of the others knew about him, they assumed that every member of the team was str8. Though having seen a number of the members of the athletics union, my gaydar was ringing almost loud enough for them to hear it. Well thats all for now. Pink fluffy sheep to all [ Hows that for a stereotype] ************************************************ Zha'hai'allav'a Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras Kal'enedral [OIB](AKA Jason Stokes) 95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk "If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended. That you have but slumbered here While these visions did appear". *Puck, Midsummer Nights Dream* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:18:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Mom2AnN-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Age Message-ID: <970521071835_-28930207-+AT+-emout17.mail.aol.com> Thank you thank you to all who responded first (Lorraine, Storwind) - I was beginning to feel quite ancient at the ripe old age of 31! Volunteering to be the "odd man out" newbie.... We may not be IN high school, but certainly remember what it was like... Frostfire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:32:05 -0400 (EDT) From: BluEyesTB-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Cruise, Talia, Cooper Message-ID: <970521070207_1458414982-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> Actually, I don't think the Jody Lee covers (especially Magic's Pawn and Magic's Promise) look anything like Vanyel......the cover of Magic's Price is much better, though. BLU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:06:25 -0700 From: Mark & Tracy To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Score, age, casting Message-ID: <33811531.2431-+AT+-worldnet.att.net> Ken Hyde wrote: > So, what music out there, that is not Misty-based filk, do you think > would be good music to "background" certain scenes. > Manneheim Steamroller all through it!! Especially their Fresh Aire stuff! Greg Wooledge wrote: > Also, are most of us here (as on this mailing list) teenagers or at > most in their twenties? I am 33. I think those of us that are older and wiser are just letting the younglings ramble and enjoying the conversation. *G* Seriously I haven't posted lately 'cause its mostly been the gay question (I'm not, so didn't feel it was appropriate for me to respond one way or the other) and the casting issue..I don't watch anything except Star Trek, and that not often enough, so most of the names meant slightly less than nothing to me. OK, for entertainment purposes, Star Trek characters in Misty's world? Worf as Alberich! Riker as Skif, although he needs to lose a little weight. Deanna Troi as Sherril, Captain Janeway as Kerowyn, Chekov as Karal. Captain Picard as Ulric...well I could probably continue, but you get the point, I'm sure. Brownie sheep to everyone. Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 05:42:46 PDT From: "Joe Lackey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Too much to list. Some gripes though as well. Message-ID: <199705211242.FAA27589-+AT+-f9.hotmail.com> First the griping (sorry needs done). This is not a saych e-mail list. This is a Misty e-mail list. Why must we insist discussing this item to death? I'm a straight male and proud of that fact. I also have many friends (both men and women) who are saych. The problem is the way this particualr disscussion is going it is getting almost as bad as the topic of religions. Please lay off. There are allways going to be bigiots in the world and what we need to do about them is just laugh. The more we laugh at the bigots instead of taking them seriously the less effective their message is going to be. Ok. Now that is done and out of my system. How about instead of making a movie of a book Misty has out now how about haveing her wright a original screenplay with an entirely new Valdemar story? Then there will be no complaints that it does not fit the book. She could even incorporate it into the timeline and write future books around it. As far as the mindspeaking in the movie would go I think that they should do like they did in the movie Dune (not to mention several others that I can't remember at the moment) and have the thoughts heard by the audience without the actors actualy speaking in the movie. Comedy. Miss Piggy as Hulda. How many roads must a man walk down.-the supposed ultmate question which the answer for is of course 42 from the Hitchhicker's Guide to the Galaxy. DON'T PANIC!!!!! Wind to they wings. Sorowheark k'Marra PS: Jess are you a Wica? Let me know privatly. If you are I would like to talk to you about some things. (Don't worry nothing bad and no preaching, I'm not like that). --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:08:33 -0500 From: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu (Nina Ehgartner) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: scoring Message-ID: <199705211308.AA224690122-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu> Heyla, all! As far as scoring goes, I'm partial to Sarah MacLachlan's (sp??) "I Will Remember You." At first I thought it would be good for Van and 'Lendel, but I decided it might suit Talia (and Dirk) better when they think of Kris. I'd still like to hear Billy Joel's "And So It Goes" somewhere, but I'm not sure where it would fit. WTTW, Nina Ehgartner Admissions Assistant-Office of Admissions and Financial Aid J.L. Kellogg Graduate School of Management email: nme848-+AT+-hecky.acns.nwu.edu Phone: (847) 491-3308 Fax: (847) 491-4960 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 06:26:11 -0700 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: cessation of casting (was Long Braid) Message-ID: lebow-+AT+-iccas.com wrote: > Lastly could the casting stuff please be stopped. I'm very sorry, and I >would love to ponder a Velgarth movie, but I agree that we'd be This a thread that seems never to die. Just have to delete messages about casting and hope it dies down for a bit. >*Peregrine tries hoplessly to keep a grasp on his sanity* Boy are you on the wrong list!!!!!<-(OB Number) OBmisty: If the blues invent movies sometime soon (IE shortly after the Mage Storms tril) who do you think they'd have play Vanyel? David Tiffany, log of ytops ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:44:17 -0400 (EDT) From: FireWurm-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Gays/Age/More Gays Message-ID: <970521080753_2052668033-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> Some one said: > Which sort of bring me into the next question. One interesting > observation I made is that most male Misty readers are gay. Do anyone > know any reasons why this is so? Well I was introduced to Misty when i was younger, by my aunt befor she came out to our family. I had read Queen's Own and Mistys handling of gays in parts of that book taught me what they were and that they wern't all bad (I was and still am to some extent shelterd) Though I let my dad read her books, he sloged through them just to figure out who his little girl was. So what did he blame when _I_ came out? I have found that most of the women i know who read Misty are eather bi or gay so i really would not limit that to most male Misty readers. But i would think it is because of the scarcedy of books protraying a postive homosexual main caractor. > Also, are most of us here (as on this mailing list) teenagers or at > most in their twenties? I don't know. . . i just figured at first that most of them were older, then that dude came along. . . sigh. . . . Now i really could not say. . . I'm 16 though, birthday on the 22 of Aug!!!! almost summer!!!!! Can't wait!!!! why? ::Squeel:: my mom is getting me hearals whites!!!!!!! Cennydd wrote : > In fact, for most of the kids who use "gay" > to mean "uncool," the connection between that "gay" and the sexuality > kind of gay is not every something they think of at the conscious level. > Calling them bigots may be a bit extreme. I am a lesbian who has never found a need to hide in a closet, except around certaind people. It grates on my nerves when i here that. Those are the people i "hide" from. It's somehow easyer that way. Stallion Mind Mate to Saa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:49:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Elisiande-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Age, gays, casting, stuff... Message-ID: <970521094854_-862380738-+AT+-emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-21 03:58:27 EDT, someone wrote: << A sequel would totally ruin a beautiful ending, even if there were some threads left dangling. >> I agree with this in regard to so many books! After all, life is full of little loose ends that don't get tied up neatly..... As for the age thread... dare I? I'm 32, but every time I call to order the pizza, they ask to confirm the order with my mom..... A great big "thankyouthankyouthankyou!!!" to whomever found the Di Tregarde short story... will look for it this afternoon! (((hug!))) Must dash... baby is awake.... IOU one ObMisty!!! ~Elisiande-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:04:37 -0400 From: "H. Torrance Griffin" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Cruise, Talia, Cooper Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 1997, [iso-8859-1] Familia Rinc=F3n Parra wrote: > > =09I've been nosing around a bit during the casting thread and I > > think that you are going about it all wrong. Instead of fighting with = =3D > the > > limitations of living actors, 'companions', and so forth; the best way = =3D > to > > make a Velgarth movie and/or series is to _animate_ the bloody thing.= =3D20 > I thought about it, and reached the conclusion that animation can't give = =3D > the depth on character. In the animes I've seen, you don't see people, = =3D > you see drawings. The only animation i have seen that would be similar = =3D > is the Disney animation, and *ack*, can you imagine the butchering to =3D > make the film "morally acceptable"? spare me. I want my characters as =3D > they are.=20 =09'No depth on character?' =09I suspect you would change your mind if you had the chance to see Gunnm, Vision of Escaflone, BGC, Evangelon, Yuu Yuu Hashuko, Fushii Yuugi, Naussica.... =09I assure you, it is _quite_ possible to achive depth of character and storyline in an animated medium if one get's out of the mindset of "Cartoons Are For Little Children". And would the debates on the character designs be any worse than the casting fights around here? =09I do concur, however, that Disney and the like should not be allowed within a parsec of Misty's work on pain of death. ^_^ HTG (still ill over what DIC did to Sailor Moon) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:21:17 -0400 From: "H. Torrance Griffin" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Animation Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 1997 TaliaRolan-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > >>I've been nosing around a bit during the casting thread and I > think that you are going about it all wrong. Instead of fighting with the > limitations of living actors, 'companions', and so forth; the best way to > make a Velgarth movie and/or series is to _animate_ the bloody thing. >> > > This is a great idea in theory, HTG, but not in practice. Animated films > usually do not attract the mature audiences that Misty's books would appeal > to. Being part of the 'Otaku' community, I can tell you first-hand that there is a growing number of young (and not-so young) adults in the 'States that are going out of their way to aquire mature (_not_ nessicarily "adult") animation due to both technical quality and intellegent, engrossing storylines. With a studio such as GAINAX providing the former and Misty's writing providing the latter, while they would never make it to broadcast TV people _will_ snap up videotapes & laserdiscs quite rapidly. And if they're looking for an _assured_ profit margin, they could always have it subtitled and released on Japan. > Small children probably would not "get it" and their parents might be > upset because of the sexual scenes. *sigh* Makes one wonder where this society's priorities are, don't it. HTG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:32:57 -0700 From: davidt-+AT+-cet.com (D H Tiffany/Shawn Marie Walker) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Looking "-----" (was: Looking Gay) Message-ID: Just a quick comment here. I have known several people in the course of my life who exactly matched a sterotype but were in no way part of the group sterotyped! 2 examples: 1) A girl who loved grits and watermelons, had natural rhythm and was always singing songs about Jesus. Black? Nope. Blonde, blue-eyed and of "pure" Norwegian descent. Not even southern, she lived in Iowa! 2) A young man who was shifty, tight with money and had a big nose. Jewish? Nope, WASP, blue blood from New England. I've always thought those two (and others) when somebody starts saying that "all ----- are/look/act/etc." David Tiffany ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:23:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Tensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Newbie/Lurker's Take on Casting Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 1997, Cody Anderson wrote: > I agree with you on this, at least getting it animated, though it would > more than likely be a cutesy fantasy "Oh! Here is the pretty white horse > with the goody-goody hero on it's back" type of movie, unless, in my > opinion, they were able to get it animated by a really good animae > artist..."Ghost in the Shell" artists anyone? > Thats one idea. The other would be go with the staff that made Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and so forth into animated movies. They made it obvious when the tone of the story changed from cheery to grim and dark. The animation followed with the story completely. Tensen "where theres a whip, theres a way..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:27:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Tensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gay Message-ID: Okay, sorry this is futher off the topic. But can anyone tell me how Fag, which is slang for a cigarette elsewhere, became a slang term meaning homoesexual? Tensen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:05:55 -0400 From: "John and Kara Pekar" To: "MISTY" Subject: re: gay Message-ID: <199705211816.OAA18713-+AT+-sasquatch.crosslink.net> Heyla, listsibs! Hi to all old friends, and welcome to the quantities of new folks who have arrived since my last post. Sorry I've been lurking so long...actually, I'm waaaay behind on reading my email, after several weeks of pushing to finish a project, a week of vacation, a week of back spasms, and a week at a conference. But I happened across Cennydd's excellent recent post on the term gay, and there was one thing I wanted to reply to. On May 20, Cennydd wrote: >Well, first of all, why not ask them "You mean it was brightly decorated with a cheerful floral motif in seasonal colors? Or was it just chock full of light-hearted and frothy witticisms?" After all, those are other meanings for the word gay (and ones that predate our co-opting of the term to mean "(male) homosexual." Also, I would like to point out that using the term "gay" in this sense is not necessarily a direct slur on queer people. It doesn't help, I agree. But it doesn't necessarily signify a deep and abiding homophobia. In fact, for most of the kids who use "gay" to mean "uncool," the connection between that "gay" and the sexuality kind of gay is not every something they think of at the conscious level. Calling them bigots may be a bit extreme.< It's certainly possible that many kids who use the term "gay" in this way don't consciously mean it as a slur on homosexuals at that moment. But most of my students who used the term at all also used it in other contexts as a slur, a put-down, or a taunt. IMHO, the kids used it in the sense of "uncool" precisely *because* they knew and used it as a word with highly-charged negative connotations (for them) in other contexts. In this sense, it *was* an indication of bigotry. Predjudice and oppression aren't just passed through nonverbally-expressed attitudes. Usually, they are passed along in and supported by the language. For instance, we have to choose among using the cumbersome "he or she", the grammatically incorrect "they" or the grammatically correct but sometimes misleading "he" to mean "a person of no specified gender". The language reflects the historical bias in which it evolved. Another, more pointed example might be slang words used (in America) to denote members of non-white races or immigrant nationalities. Most originated as derogatory identications and then became generic insults, often used by children. Some slang terms didn't start out with derogatory connotations, but aquired them as a result of their association with oppressed groups (for example, "Paddy" or "Mick", used in America at one time to describe a person of Irish descent.) The words acquired negative connotations, and the connotations were reinforced by negative use of those words. Current evidence indicates that it is set fairly early in childhood, and certainly by age 8 or 10. Hence my concern that kids are using "gay" as a slur or to mean "uncool" -- even kids who don't know the word's connection to homosexuality. When they do hear "gay" meaning "homosexual", they are already programmed with a negative connotation for the word. It makes it harder for them to approach the subject with objectivity. I'm also concerned that the word "gay" has effectively lost its original, positive definitions and connotations as far as these kids are concerned. And since it now carries negative connotations for many people, "gay" can't necessarily be used as a neutral term for "homosexual", either. Even people who support or have no bias against homosexuals may have picked up the negative connotations, however slightly. (I realize that for many people, "gay" carries strong positive connotations, but I was dealing my concerns over this particular slang use of the term.) All of which brings me nicely to my ObMisty: I thought it was very intelligent and insightful of Misty to avoid any of the English terms for homosexuality in her books. By inventing her own terms (she'chorne, shaych, etc.) she very neatly avoided "pushing" a potential "hot button". Of course, some readers will react negatively anyway, but readers who enjoy plunging themselves into the author's world could do so without having to bring along any "baggage" associated with words themselves. One further word on predjudice... BTW, I am *not* trying to start a discussion on the issue of homosexuality. People have very strong feelings on this issue, and I don't want to be guilty of kicking off another heated discussion like the Religion flames. But I felt that as readers, we can and should be aware that our use of language affects how we think about and react to issues and groups. (Kara realizes she has been pontificating overlong, blushes, grins sheepishly, and retires from her soapbox.) I'm now going back into lurk mode for a while...I'm trying to get a freelance indexing business off the ground, and it's very time-consuming. Wind to thy wings, my friends, Kara "So many books, so little time" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:47:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra K Haas To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: scoring Message-ID: Hi all! and old-bie lurker here (32 YOA!) how about Michael W. Smith's 'Friends' for the scene where Skif is leaving on his internship, and says goodbye to Talia? Maybe modified a little, but the 'friends are friends forever' bit would work....how about.... friends are friends forever, but there is no one true way...... :) Sandy the lurker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:59:45 -0600 From: MorningStar To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Ramblebraid: Age, Sexuality, Casting, Views, Dark Rising, Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521135945.0069a2b8-+AT+-mail.geocities.com> All right, now it's time for me to start talking... :) For all of you discussing ages, I am 20 years old, with an October birthday. I've never thought that age particularly matters, though... I'm more interested in content. :) As for sexuality, I am straight as far as I know! :) Still, it even frustrates me to hear people with prejudiced mindsets go on and on and on... I was raised Catholic, and one of the things that really bothers me about Catholoicism is the intolerance many(not all... but many) Catholics show towards things they consider abnormal, like homosexuality. I now consider myself to be agnostic with Wiccan leanings, and I have finally settled my mind at least on what I believe, if not what I practice. :) Since the other major conversation is about casting (still!!), I will stay out of it, since I rarely turn on the TV, and almost never bother to worry about which actor is who, and so on. Petrie said: >Well, maybe it's because her handling of homosexuality in her books. I >think a gay person would be more likely to read such books and enjoy >them. Of course I'm not saying a heterosexual couldn't or wouldn't, >but I think the effect on the reader would not be the same. Personally, I think everyone will get an individual effect, regardless of your sexuality. I don't think any of us sees the books in exactly the same way, nor would we want to--we all bring our own observations, and flavor our viewing of the story with our own experience. So... I can't say that I as a straight person would or wouldn't view the handling of Vanyel's sexuality the same way as a gay person. Or even another straight person. I do think that Misty did a great job of making us feel Vanyel's problems and joys, even the ones that were caused by his sexuality, and a terrific job of presenting Vanyel's sexuality without being offensive at least to me... Again, we bring our own ideas, so... this is all IMHO, of course! :) For those of you talking about Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" series--let me just say that I love those books! :) ObMisty: Hmmm... Well... Let me think. The last Misty book I re-read was Knight of Ghosts and Shadows... So I only have one slightly lame ObMisty for the day. After Eric comes to his senses and returns from the world of Ria, Perenor torches his apartment building and he sees that on Beth's TV. My only thought is, wouldn't he have been evicted for not paying the rent already? It had been three months, and IIRC, he seemed to have been on a monthly, if not biweekly rent schedule... Just a thought... MorningStar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:20:22 -0500 (CDT) From: debh-+AT+-skypoint.com (Deb Harrington) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Braid: gays, sexuality Message-ID: Petri sez: >Well, maybe it's because her handling of homosexuality in her books. I >think a gay person would be more likely to read such books and enjoy >them. Of course I'm not saying a heterosexual couldn't or wouldn't, >but I think the effect on the reader would not be the same. In Japan there is a type of anime/mangna called "shonen ai" wich means boy's love. It's made by heteralsexual women for heteralsexual women (I'll let you guess what it's about). I read an essay on it and the authour said many gay males are affended by it. Understandable, what do most women know about how gay males act? Same can be said with Ann Rice. I think, that Misty makes her people alot more realalistic(sp?) and doesn't give into the overly femme sterotype of gays. MorningStar sez: >I do think that Misty did a great job of making us feel Vanyel's problems >and joys, even the ones that were caused by his sexuality, and a terrific >job of presenting Vanyel's sexuality without being offensive at least to >me... I have never cried harder than when I read Magic's Pawn! For months I kept rereading the whole trill' and I still cried! When Tylendel died I almost didn't finish the book I was so depresed but thanks to a friend I did. I can not agree more about Misty doing a great job on making me feel what Vanyel was going through! Sorry folks, bad spelling day, thanks for bearing with me! ;) Stephanie"Joey" debh-+AT+-skypoint.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:36:35 -0500 (CDT) From: debh-+AT+-skypoint.com (Deb Harrington) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gay Message-ID: >Okay, sorry this is futher off the topic. But can anyone tell me how >Fag, which is slang for a cigarette elsewhere, became a slang term >meaning homoesexual? Let's see, um it involes I belive a eureopean culture called fairies. They, like the Native Americans, thought homosexuality was special. They used "fags" or burnig sticks in ceremonies and stuff. DO NOT QUOTE ME!!!! I'm not saying this is wrong, my out who is bi' told me this and I'm afraid I may have remebered some parts wrong. >I agree with you on this, at least getting it animated, though it would >more than likely be a cutesy fantasy "Oh! Here is the pretty white horse >with the goody-goody hero on it's back" type of movie, unless, in my >opinion, they were able to get it animated by a really good animae >artist..."Ghost in the Shell" artists anyone? I disagree!!! Read Clamp's X/1999! Shojo/girls anime makes all thier men pretty! They would have no problem drawing Vanyel! Stephanie debh-+AT+-skypoint.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:08:20 -0400 (EDT) From: BluEyesTB-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Braid: gays, sexuality Message-ID: <970521200812_221264655-+AT+-emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-21 17:30:59 EDT, you write: << I have never cried harder than when I read Magic's Pawn! For months I kept rereading the whole trill' and I still cried! When Tylendel died I almost didn't finish the book I was so depresed but thanks to a friend I did. I can not agree more about Misty doing a great job on making me feel what Vanyel was going through! Sorry folks, bad spelling day, thanks for bearing with me! ;) >> LOL.. I was gonna comment on the spelling...but, I won't ;) Anyway....I too somehow get so emotionally tied to stuff I read.....I like to think I have a bit of Empathy...... I wrote an article about that called Flight Into Fantasy...if anybody's interested in it, let me know. BLU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:27:24 CST From: "JAIME HATHAWAY" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions Mind Speech Message-ID: <35343F27B7-+AT+-future.judson.edu> > >.I believe the only Herald who CAN > > NOT mind speak her Companion is Talia. Actually, if you recall Skif's accident in the beginning of Aflight, you'll find that Skif could barely Mindspeak, and Dirk didn't have it at all.... Jacquelle It is a far, far better thing that I do than I have ever done. It is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known. _A Tale of Two Cities_ ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1211 **********************************