MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1215 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Life bonds with hate and some other stuff by RTeclectic-+AT+-aol.com 2) Re: Reply by Greg Wooledge 3) Re: Help by AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com 4) Re: Bardic Gift by Jivdog5-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: No Subject by Jivdog5-+AT+-aol.com 6) Re: Life bonds with hate by Jivdog5-+AT+-aol.com 7) Braid: Companions/Force&Acceptance/No One True Way by Ken Hyde 8) re: decline by Windstorm 9) RE: Bardic Gift SOI SPOILER by Crystal Hewitt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:40:55 -0400 (EDT) From: RTeclectic-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Life bonds with hate and some other stuff Message-ID: <970524224054_876593767-+AT+-emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-24 16:51:32 EDT, you write: << > I don't really know if this is relavant but i think that they mentioned in one of the arrows books-i don't remeber what one-that it was posible to have a life bond with three. > >>(not sure) Yes they did, someone said that had Sherill made her feelings known earlier( as in before Ylsa's daeth) then Keren, Ylsa, and Sherill could have been one of the rare tri-lifebonds. << ObMisty into my post: I have suddenly developed a lot more sympathy for the spirit in which she wrote "The Last Straw." >>(cennydd) Something of that nature occur to you or did you run into one of the mentiond crazies( they happen to very unpleasant in person( well the ones i have met and been taught by were))? <>(Mark Severson) and << However, I dislike strong public displays of bedroom behavior by either sex for any reason. It seems as tho the morals and eithics this country has always been so proud of began to erode, when we decided that it was perfectly ok to do your own thing, no matter who it hurt, or how it looked to others.>>(Stormwind) Why anyone would want to wear a dress... The rest of it though, that type of behavior, for any pairing, belongs in the bedroom Not a public place, please. And I really do have to agree with Stormwind about the morals. Could someone explain this Help thread ???, please I am really confused ( though that may be the effect of a recent chemistry test) AFN, Seeya, -Regan Repairs Chief, U.S.S.Conquistidor( untill transfer to Ten-forward, which will be finalized soon, I hope, as the Ten-forward is currently getting set up) Oponant of a Wrriten Languge Disability Fellow Crevic Dweller Knight errant of the Kingdom of Mercersyard Blessed Destroyer of weeds Seeker Kyr Nolae, bondmate of Qwue'la "If you don't know it, look it up!" -Anonymus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:21:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Greg Wooledge To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Reply Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 1997, Beth Smith wrote: > It seems as tho > the morals and eithics this country has always been so proud of began to > erode, when we decided that it was perfectly ok to do your own thing, no > matter who it hurt, or how it looked to others. I agree with half of this. The morals in this country definitely *have* deteriorated. And I strongly support the notion that one should not do things that hurt others. However, the last part quoted above disturbs me. I don't think that other people's perceptions of my actions have any bearing on the ethics of my actions. As a (perhaps too strong) counterexample, I offer this modern-day version of an old parable: suppose a white man finds a black man lying on the ground and offers him some food and money. A racially prejudiced onlooker may find the white man's actions distasteful. Does this mean that the white man's actions were unethical, because they offended the onlooker? ------------ Greg Wooledge ------------- ------- wooledge-+AT+-kellnet.com ------- --- http://kellnet.com/wooledge/main.html --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:57:57 -0400 (EDT) From: AERDEN-+AT+-delphi.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Help Message-ID: <01IJAATNGTOY9EM95H-+AT+-delphi.com> Joe--Listen to Cenydd's advice--paying close attention to his cautionss about having 'good evidence' and follow it. If I were you I would not mention magic at all should you decide there is a true need to report your brother's activities. Mention magic and you will not be taken seriously by most people. Stick to the observable facts that any other person can see. Good luck! Chantal `[1;30;46mRainbow V 1.20.2 for Delphi - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:49:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Jivdog5-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Bardic Gift Message-ID: <970525124921_419719674-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> i think the bardic gift is just as common as then, but the stories just don't deal with bards like the herald-mage trilogy did. firesong was invoved briefly w/ a young bard, and the collegium is still on the maps, so i believe it is not the gift but the mention of it that has faded. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:55:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Jivdog5-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: No Subject Message-ID: <970525125520_-28476250-+AT+-emout17.mail.aol.com> it is mentioned he prayed to every diety he ckould think of. interesting, about the companions. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:03:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Jivdog5-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Life bonds with hate Message-ID: <970525130335_551619409-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> yes, they bonded after ylsa's death, but i do remember one of them speculating that they might have been "one of the rare threesomes" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:36:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Braid: Companions/Force&Acceptance/No One True Way Message-ID: On Sat, 24 May 1997, Roxanne Nolan wrote: > I also got to wondering since the empire worships (I use this term > loosely) their ancestors and it is generally known that the Companions > are re-incarnated heralds could the first Companions been an answer from > the Gods Valdemar prayed to (i.e his ancestors) by them (them being some > of the ancestors) becoming the first Companions? You know, this is an intriquing theory. I don't think that it is what Misty had in mind though, although it would certainly fit beautifully into her cosmology. However, the famous Star-Eyed quote from OBound (where the Star-Eyed greets Roald's Companion as the "child of My other self") suggests that the Companions are not, themselves, divine. Still, a good theologian could probably give the idea a run for its money. Follow: 1. Assumption: Baron Valdemar and his people, like the rest of the Empire, worshipped their anscestors. 2. Assumption: Sufficient numbers of devout worshippers can generate enough spiritual power to "create" gods (the Thalkarsh phenomenon). --> the anscestors worshipped by Valdemar could become true gods. 3. Assumption: Baron Valdemar prayed to all of the gods he knew of when he cast the Companion spell (the "Orientation" scene). Corollary: he did not direct the prayer to gods he had not heard of, so probably didn't include the Star-Eyed (At this point, I am assuming that Valdemar had not had any contact with the Shin'a'in or the Tayledras) --> The Companion spell was an invocation of the Gods of Valdemar. 4. Assumption: reincarnation is possible in Velgarth. (supported by evidence of Firecats, normal Companions, and possibly Stefen) 5. Observation: Grove-Born Companions are much more powerful than normal Companions (supported by evidence about Gwena and Rolan). Given the implications in (2) and (3) and the assumption in (4), it is at least theoretically possible that the original Companions could be reincarnated divine anscestors. This solution would also neatly explain why Grove-Born Companions are different from the normally born Companions, if we extend the "divine anscestor" hypothesis to include all GB Companions, and not merely the originals. With this hypothesis we have GB = divine, and non-GB = non-divine (I assume that since non-GB are reincarnated Heralds, they are not divine--nobody worships their spirits to make them divine). Further, we could account for the Star-Eyed's comment by assuming that Roald's Companion was a normal Companion and was therefore, literally, a descendant of a divine being (the "other self"). Okay, so the problems with this are numerous. I will mention one, and show how it might be accounted for. In the Winds series, Vanyel's spirit mentions that Gwena does not have any human experience to draw on. This would suggest that she was never human (hence not a divine anscestor). Some possible solutions are to assume that Van may be wrong (he is not infallible and the Gods of Valdemar may not want him to know the exact nature of the Companions). Another solution is to assume that Gwena's original life was very short (she may have died young) and/or that it was sufficiently different from the realities of life in modern Valdemar that she is, for all intents and purposes, "new." A third solution is to assume that the "divine anscestor" hypothesis does *not* extend to GB Companions in general. My own feeling is that the second solution is to be preferred. It is clear that Gwena has some experiences to draw on, and most of her errors are as easily explained by saying that her human experience is from a very long time ago and from a very different sort of life. If she had been a divine anscestor who died young, we might expect that her human experience was as a very sheltered noble woman. This would, in fact, be entirely consistent with the type of mistakes she made in dealing with Elspeth. Anyway, it is an interesting possibility. I am sure that there will now be a host of people who will come up with flaws in my story. At least, I hope so. =) ------NEW MESSAGE On Sat, 24 May 1997, Mark Severson wrote: > Nor did [Vanyel] run around attempting to force people to accept > him. Even when he lashed out at his father (whom I consider to have > been a royal jerk for much of the story). Hmmmm. Well, let's clarify something. What do you mean by "force people to accept him"? For example, I don't try to force people to *approve* of gay identity, but I do require that they are polite and that they show me, as a person, the same respect and courtesy they would show to anyone else. And in terms of "force," I don't go around threatening to hurt people if they can't be courteous to me, but I do refuse to deal with people who can't be, and although I will always be polite and courteous to them, I may also choose not to help them or make their lives easier (Oh, I would probably still help them if it were a major life-changing cusp, but for the day to day things...). If that means that they don't get something from me that they need, they should have thought of that earlier and tried to be a bit more polite. I think that Vanyel did much the same. He did require that everyone approve of him, but he did require that they show him the respect he deserved. Frankly, whenever this conversation comes up, I am reminded of Harvey Feirstein's speech in "Torch Song Trilogy" which ends with the line "the only thing I need from other people is love and respect, and if you can't give me those things, then you have no place in my life." While this is a very strong statement (he was in a major fight with his mother when he says it), I think that it exactly captures a very common feeling in the lgb community. One of Misty's great achievements in dealing with Van and Withen's relationship was capturing that same feeling. And, I really don't see that it is very different from the feelings that straight people have. We all, regardless of orientation, tend to require that the people in our lives give us love and respect. If they don't, we tend to exclude them from our lives as much as possible (certainly outside of our personal lives). If that kind of ultimatum is "forcing" someone to accept you, then so be it and more power to the people who give it. -----NEW MESSAGE On Sun, 25 May 1997, Beth Smith wrote: > Before I go under in a hail of replies, remember that I am one of > the oldest of you, and supposed to be more conservative. But I have > never liked having something shoved down my throat, or being bullied. I certainly hope that no-one will "bully" you, but certainly I am sure that others will state opinions that do not agree with yours. That is part of the attraction of this list, as long as we can keep the conversation relatively on-topic and civil. To be honest, I think that different people appreciate different things about Misty's worlds. You mention the strong sense of social responsibility as something you particularly enjoy. I have to say that I also find that to be a very appealing part of her work. However, for me, the most important idea is the one that she stresses, over and over again: "There is no One True Way." I think that this is not only important in Misty's world but also in our own. Many of the things that people mention as "erosion" of morals seem, on close examination, to be cases of a group of people who are fumbling to find a way to respect different moral systems. Some of the hottest political issues in the USA and in other countries are precisely centered on the question of whether one group's moral beliefs should enjoy the privileged status of laws when they may not be shared by everyone. I am not going to debate any of these issues on this list (this is not the forum for political discussion), but I do think that, if the Valdemaran ethic of "no One True Way" could be brought into the real world, and if people could be persuaded to abide by it, the world might be a nicer place. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me **http://www.udel.edu/kenny/ken.html or .../kenny/green.silences.html** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:42:02 -0600 From: Windstorm To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re: decline Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970525154202.006a8664-+AT+-pop.srv.ualberta.ca> > Here's to hoping I'm not going to get flamed for this, but I >honestly think that Misty's writing has (*gulp*) declined a bit since she >wrote LHM. > >..Hamlet I'd have to agree with you. The Arrow's trilogy, LHM, and the Oathbound/breaker were the best. I think the later ones could be because she's churning out the books so quickly, and something has to suffer. >Any Herald has the possibility of becoming Valdemar's ruler. I'd think this would also require that a Chosen's first loyalty must be to the country of Valdemar, possibly even over family if the need is desperate enough. -->Chantal/Aerden Definately over family. Remeber Savil saying that 'Lendel had to remain neutral in his family problems? He couldn't meddle in it and had to let the council deal with it. Well, he meddled, and look where it got him. >If it is a matter of animal abuse, you need to weigh your conscience and decide whether turning I absolutly cannot believe this was written! You're saying that animal abuse should not be reported because it could make trouble in the home?!!! This is sickening! Try and put yourself in that animals place and decide whether it should be stopped or not. Try and imagine being beaten to death and saying "oh, that's ok, don't stop him, it may cause some upset to his life". AARRGGHHHHH!! Windstorm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:22:29 -0400 From: Crystal Hewitt To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Bardic Gift SOI SPOILER Message-ID: <01BC6949.62BB4360-+AT+-TPhantom02> Heyla listsibs, to answer this question, will require a Sword of Ice SPOILER, so be warned, after this quote is a SPOILER read at your own risk!!! Jivdog5 wrote the following: i think the bardic gift is just as common as then, but the stories just don't deal with bards like the herald-mage trilogy did. firesong was invoved briefly w/ a young bard, and the collegium is still on the maps, so i believe it is not the gift but the mention of it that has faded. In the short story "Song for Valdemar Revyn our main character is devestated by the fact that although he has always wanted to be a Bard he has been told that he doesn't have enough of the BARDIC gift. Thus, the collegium still knows how to recognize and train this gift. 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