MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1229 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) speculation: gods, goddesses, songs by Greg Wooledge 2) Re: herbs by NightSong 3) Re: speculation: gods, goddesses, songs by Thomas & Kristine Jackson 4) Re: speculation: gods, goddesses, songs by Ken Hyde 5) Eldan in Kero's Dreams/candlemarks/cold drakes/reincarnation by Selene Tan 6) Randale by Selene Tan 7) Re: Eldan in Kero's Dreams/candlemarks/cold drakes/reincarnation by keithbarber-+AT+-juno.com (Keith M Barber) 8) Re: herbs by sage.blackhart-+AT+-juno.com (sage f blackhart) 9) Re: herbs by "Jaime Hathaway" 10) RE: Randale/Gods by Benjamin Kohler-Crowe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 21:14:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Greg Wooledge To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: speculation: gods, goddesses, songs Message-ID: I recently got a chance to read the Storms books. Good stuff! Far better than Winds. Anyway, some statements in the Storms books, combined with some stuff I remembered from the Arrows books, caused me to come up with a rather interesting theory. I'd support it with more textevd, but I've returned the Storms books to the library already.... At some point in one of the first two Storms books, Karal recalls a mention of a goddess with whom Vkandis was known to associate long ago. He wonders who this goddess was, and why there's been no mention of her in recent times. Well, there's only one other deity who figures prominently in the lands near Valdemar -- the Shin'a'in goddess Kal'enel (the Star-Eyed). Ah, but wait! Here's where it gets interesting! Vkandis, the male figure, is associated with the sun. Kal'enel, the female figure, is associated with the night time (Star-Eyed, Moonpaths, etc.). Does this sound familiar? There's a certain legend-song in Valdemar called "Sun and Shadow" which could be related. I only have the short version in Arrow's Fall, not the longer version in Magic's Price, but there's one line even in the short version that really floored me: Star-eyed maid beyond compare, Mist of twilight in your hair-- I think it's possible that "Sun and Shadow" is about Vkandis and Kal'enel. All the pieces seem to fit. S&S is supposed to be an *old* song, so it's not surprising that the Valdemarans have forgotten its origin, or even the fact that it refers to deities and not human beings. Or maybe V&K started out as human beings with the curse mentioned in the song, before somehow becoming deities. My apologies (and sunglass-wearing sheep to all) if this has been brought up and shot down before, but I don't recall any mention of it in the FAQ. ------------ Greg Wooledge ------------- ------- wooledge-+AT+-kellnet.com ------- --- http://kellnet.com/wooledge/main.html --- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 00:07:23 -0400 From: NightSong To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: herbs Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970608040723.00697cac-+AT+-atlonline.com> Jacquelle wrote: >Well, I don't know that you would have to explain it. Some people >have things wrong with them, and that simply is the way it is. >Randale was obviously sterile before he got sick, because Jisa is >around before he got sick, and before Shavri was Chosen(if I'm wrong >here, someone correct me), and you don't see the people around him >going hysterical because he's sterile and they can't solve the >problem. When I read the books, it just seemed that his sterility >was accepted by all--even Shavri--as a fact of life, as one of those >things that just IS. My only problem with this is that -no- one knew that Randi was sterile except a few very choice people, including Van, Shavri, and maybe a few healers. Because, remember, Jisa -was- in the line of succession, though very far back because she's technically a bastard of Randi's, as far as most people know. If everyone knew that Jisa was Van's child, she would -not- be a candidate for the heirship. That's why Shavri wouldn't marry Randi, in the first place, or one of the reasons. One, she knew he might have to give himself to a marriage of state at some point. But I think her most overriding reason was that she, and by extension, Jisa, might then be in a position to hold a -lot- of authority. And Shavri didn't want that. Ah, lessee... page 106, chapter six, Daw paperback edition of MPrice... Shavri says, "You've put my daughter right -back- in the line of succession" (emphasis mine). This seems to say to me that Jisa was at some point considered for the throne because of her relationship with Randi. however, Van isn't even remotely connected, as far as we know, so it would seem that no one really knew Jisa was Van's child. At any rate, if Jisa is seen as Randi's child, then no one knows that he is sterile. Also, wasn't that little fact deliberately -not- spread about so that Randi could still be a possible candidate for a state marriage? Which is one of the reasons why Shavri wanted Jisa in the first place, beyond the natural urge to have a child? Anyhow, I hope I was even slightly coherent... Not sure I was, but if you have any questions, please mention them. Rainbow-tie-dyed sheep to everyone for your patience with a new graduate of high school. Stars light your paths, NightSong jwrenn-+AT+-atlonline.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 23:41:09 -0700 From: Thomas & Kristine Jackson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: speculation: gods, goddesses, songs Message-ID: <339A5405.58D1-+AT+-pacbell.net> Greg Wooledge wrote: > At some point in one of the first two Storms books, Karal recalls a > mention of a goddess with whom Vkandis was known to associate long ago. > He wonders who this goddess was, and why there's been no mention of her > in recent times. > > Well, there's only one other deity who figures prominently in the lands > near Valdemar -- the Shin'a'in goddess Kal'enel (the Star-Eyed). > > ------------ Greg Wooledge ------------- > ------- wooledge-+AT+-kellnet.com ------- > --- http://kellnet.com/wooledge/main.html --- I'm glad someone else cought the same little details I did. I think that something was said in another book about Kal'enel having a male counterpart but I can't remember which book it was. I hope to read more about it in up coming books though. Gee Brain what are we goin' ta do tonight? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:29:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: speculation: gods, goddesses, songs Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Thomas & Kristine Jackson wrote: > Greg Wooledge wrote: [snip of some good stuff about the Star-Eyed and Sun and Shadow] > I'm glad someone else cought the same little details I did. I think > that something was said in another book about Kal'enel having a male > counterpart but I can't remember which book it was. Well, there are a few problems though. First, Sun and Shadow is the story of *historical* characters, both of whom became Heralds. There is a point in one of the books (Arrows Flight, IRRC) that mentions that after they saved Windrider, they were freed of their curse and were Chosen. Whatever mythic overtones may have been added to the story by the popular bardic traditions, the actual characters of Sun and Shadow were part of the written human history of Valdemar. Also, although you could argue that the bardic tradition may have "embellished" their story by adding motifs from the Vkandis/Kalenal mythos, I would argue that this is unlikely. Since there is no indication that Valdemarans *ever* knew of the existence of Kalenel, it is unlikely that they would have used her as a character in a legend. More likely is that the motif of Sun and Shadow was a compelling to the Valdemaran bards as it is in RL and that the term "star-eyed" is just a bit of conventional poetics. However, both Greg and were onto a good thing with the Vkandis/Kalenal thing. I agree that all the evidence points to Vkandis and the Star-Eyed Goddess being two halfs of what was original a pair of consorts. And yes, , your memory is correct. There is a song at the end of Oathbreakers that details the various aspects of the Shin'a'in God, the consort of the Star-Eyed. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.udel.edu/kenny/prof/ken.html or .../kenny/pers/green.silences.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 16:38:59 +0800 From: Selene Tan To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Eldan in Kero's Dreams/candlemarks/cold drakes/reincarnation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608083859.00676b78-+AT+-qinet.net> Heyla all! I just remembered something. In AotQ, one of Talia's year-mates (can't remember the name) who is in her Gifts class, could project images. I think he was accidentally projecting his nightmares to anyone within range, or something like that. So maybe Eldan could've had that talent too? (What was it called again? Projection?) Oh yeah, about the candlemarks thingie, someone said that there are lots of variables involved in how long it takes to burn (yuck! variables! and I thought I wouldn't have to think about algebra over the summer...). I think that people would know that, wouldn't they, and try their very best to make the candles the same size to start with, and of the same materials. The marks probably also get further between as they go down, like if someone marked a funnel for equal amounts of volume. Also, how about perception of time? Okay, does anyone know where I could get the three Winds books? Preferably some place that a) ships books, b) doesn't charge enormous rates for the shipping, and c) has pretty reasonable prices. Those are the only 3 Velgarath books I haven't read, other than the Gryphon ones (I'm getting to those when I've finished Oathbreakers), and those are the ones I can't find anywhere! Sometime, about 5 days ago, there was a question what cold drakes looked like. The description reminded me of this story, "The Laidly Worm," esp. the nice drawing of the laidly worm in the beginning. I doubt, though that cold drakes get as big as the laidly worm in the story did, but they seemed about the same to me. Oh, another thing came to me. Someone was saying that Companions got re-inced as Heralds, and someone else said that there wasn't enough evidence to prove that. I don't 'zactly have evidence, but in MPrice, wossname (the younger Tayledras Adept) was broaching the subject of Stef being Tylendel, and mentioned that spirits/whatever tended to be reincarnated as beings of like intelligence. So Companions *could* get re-inced as humans, but whether they became Heralds would depend on what they were like, as we all know. Wow. Longest post for me so far. But that's it! -Selene T. =&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&==&=&=&=&=&= Selene T. selly-+AT+-geocities.com|seltan-+AT+-qinet.net http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8121/ =&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&==&=&=&=&=&= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 20:59:28 +0800 From: Selene Tan To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Randale Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608125928.0069a84c-+AT+-qinet.net> >Well, I don't know that you would have to explain it. Some people >have things wrong with them, and that simply is the way it is. >Randale was obviously sterile before he got sick, because Jisa is >around before he got sick, and before Shavri was Chosen(if I'm wrong >here, someone correct me), and you don't see the people around him >going hysterical because he's sterile and they can't solve the >problem. When I read the books, it just seemed that his sterility >was accepted by all--even Shavri--as a fact of life, as one of those >things that just IS. What it seemed like to ME was one of the reasons Van fathered Jisa was so that Randale would still be eligible to make a marriage of state, because some alliances had to be made that way, and he wouldn't be able to if people knew he was sterile. Also, Randi was probably sick for a long time, but just didn't know it, because there were no symptoms except maybe sterility. Later it started getting worse, with the pain and all that stuff. I think the other day someone suggested Parkinsons for his disease. I don't think so, because Parkinsons makes you tremble, like when holding a cup and sometimes when you're not doing anything, and I don't think there were any mentions of Randale's hand or whatever trembling, at any time in the books. I know! 2 of my grandparents are (retired) doctors, maybe I can ask them! >*Personally, I think the sterility was simply for the sake of having >Vanyel father Jisa, thus keeping the Mage Gift alive, though dormant, >in Valdemar, until it was needed again--that being with Elspeth. Ummm... Elspeth was needed to help stop Ancar and the other baddies around that time, right? I guess this would be one of the cases where the Gods don't help unless there's absolutely no other way, meaning that they kept the Mage Gift afloat even foreseeing far enough that there would be trouble. Or was it sort of as "insurance" for the future: make sure that the Heirs would have Mage Gift at least in potential, and then if it was needed, just make sure that whoever was needed got the training and/or the potential awakened. Guess what? I can post every day now, not just once or twice a week. Until I run out of things to say, of course. =&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&==&=&=&=&=&= Selene T. selly-+AT+-geocities.com|seltan-+AT+-qinet.net http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8121/ =&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&=&==&=&=&=&=&= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 11:38:03 EDT From: keithbarber-+AT+-juno.com (Keith M Barber) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eldan in Kero's Dreams/candlemarks/cold drakes/reincarnation Message-ID: <19970608.083510.9382.0.keithbarber-+AT+-juno.com> On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:07:11 +0100 (BST) Selene Tan writes: > >Oh yeah, about the candlemarks thingie, someone said that there are >lots of >variables involved in how long it takes to burn (yuck! variables! and >I >thought I wouldn't have to think about algebra over the summer...). I >think >that people would know that, wouldn't they, and try their very best to >make >the candles the same size to start with, and of the same materials. The problem is that natural waxes(Beeswax or bayberry) and fats (Tallow) vary so much that it is impossible to control composition without using modern fractional distillation techniques. also it would be affected by ambient air temp which was almost completely out of their control. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 12:44:46 EDT From: sage.blackhart-+AT+-juno.com (sage f blackhart) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Cc: sage.blackhart-+AT+-juno.com Subject: Re: herbs Message-ID: <19970608.114457.4846.0.Sage.Blackhart-+AT+-juno.com> Message from Ailsa - >Bringing up something that was being talked about ?last month?. >How do people in Velgarth know what good some herb or other does for >various >conditions? >Ailsa the alien > Probably the same way we found ours out. Testing, hard work, pure luck and accident:> We ourselves had to discover different herbs and such. The native american culture would be a good one to look at for similarity in that. Also a Note to Brujah: Do you play masquerade by chance? -toreador/makavian -Blessed Be- Sagey Sage.Blackhart-+AT+-Juno.com Weep no more, thine child, time has left ye to grow wild, weep no more, thus shall we smile, war is gone, grow now child ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:36:44 CST From: "Jaime Hathaway" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: herbs Message-ID: . At any rate, if Jisa is seen as > Randi's child, then no one knows that he is sterile. Also, wasn't that > little fact deliberately -not- spread about so that Randi could still be a > possible candidate for a state marriage? Yes, of course, STUPID ME!!!! How could I have forgotten THAT?!?! School...I'll blame it on classes. Yes, that's it.... Of course, you're right....no one would know of his sterility, b/c he might have to make a state marriage. Of course, Jisa could have been his actual child and still been as far away from the potential of rule as a stranger, since she hadn't been Chosen. Anyway, thank you very much.... Jacquelle "Draw me a sheep..." _The Little Prince_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 13:56:54 -0700 From: Benjamin Kohler-Crowe To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Randale/Gods Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970608205654.006985c0-+AT+-garlic.com> On Randale: I feel that the sterility was probably part of whatever disease/affliction/whatever that he had, and it just showed up before the rest of the symptoms did. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On Vkandis/Kalenel: You mean no one knew this?!?!?!? I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Karal mention Vkandis's consort, Kalenel (but I think a different spelling), in the first Storms book. But Me & my sister had taken it for granted that they were consorts... There's the song, the fact that both of them _DEFINITELY_ exist, their opposite roles (sun & stars), and the place in the book where they mention it... I hadn't thought of the Sun & Shadow thing, but someone else already shot that down... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Is it just me, or has the list slowed down again some? I've only gotten like 15 messages in the last day or so, and it seems like I used to get a lot more than that... Oh well. CYA! Ben Kohler-Crowe benkc-+AT+-garlic.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1229 **********************************