MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1293 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re:Tylendel's repudiation by Janelle Colleen Jarboe 2) Tylendel's repudation by Sorana Shadowcat 3) Re: Re:Tylendel's repudiation by "SJB" 4) Re: Tylendel's repudiation by RTeclectic-+AT+-aol.com 5) Spoiler: Fire Bird and Storm Breaking.. by "Lasara shena Tale'sedrin" 6) Tylendel and goddesses by "Nightdancer P." 7) Re: Fwd: Please read this all. by whitepossum-+AT+-juno.com (Nicholas M Batura) 8) Re: Ke'chara/ashke by "R. Barron" 9) Re: Fwd: Please read this all. by "Daniel O'Neal" 10) Re: Fwd: Please read this all. by Mark Severson 11) Re: Spoiler: Fire Bird and Storm Breaking.. by "Jasmine Silverday" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Janelle Colleen Jarboe To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: > Tylendel's repudiation > > Cennydd wrote: > > > I get the feeling that the Companions are not particularly > > "understanding" about evil. [snip] > Gala could have convinced Tylendel to call off the Wyrsa had she made any > attempt to do so. The time she wasted riping her support away from > Tylendel may have been enough time for him to come to his senses. I > realize there wasn't much time but I believe she had other options and just > choose not to take them. [snip] There was no way that a few well choosen words could have brought Telendel to his senses. There were people dieing and Telendel was ENJOYING it!! Gala did what she had to to save the poor people being killed. Moreover, we have no way of know if Telendel could have banished the wyrsa. IMHO I don't think he could have or he wouldn't have let Gala die. So even if Gala could have reversed his insanity instantly (fat chance-it brewed for months) it wouldn't have done any good becuase people would still be dieing!!! Have a loving "I forgive you" scene while mass murder occures in the back-ground??? I don't think so. Gala's first priority was stopping the wyrsa. [snip] >IMHO I sincerely believe that Tylendel was > insane with grief and not, by defintion of the word, evil (morally wrong or > bad). The acts he committed were evil but Tylendel by himself as a whole > person was not evil. Is a person judged by their actions or not? If insanity is an excuse for evil deeds than Falconsbane should have been forgiven and made a Herald!! Tarma had this debate at one point in Oathbound. She believes that some beings are intrisically evil, the priest she was agrueing with held that some beings are confused and do evil. I tend to believe that everyone is born good but at somepoint they become unredeemable. It is debatable that Telendel had hit that point. IMO he had not quite hit that point becuase he regretted what he did and the bell did toll. But at the time of Gala's suicide Telendel was evil (he was very, very morally wrong and if being capable of premeditated mass murder at the cost of your lifebonded's existance isn't bad then I have no idea what is.) > > *snip* > > Part of my reason for thinking this is the wording that Gala used: "I do > > not know you. You are not my Chosen." To me, this suggests that > > Tylendel had gone past the line and had ceased, by his own volition, to > > be a Herald. He was doing something that, by definition, no Herald > > *would* do. > *snip* > > If Tylendel had been sane his actions would clearly show he was giving up > being a Herald of his own volition (power or capability of choosing) but he > was obviously *not* sane. Therefore he was unable to understand, choose or > control what he was doing. > Like I said before, insanity is not an excuse! Falconsbane and Ancar were both definately over the edge- are we going to start critizing Elspeth and Co. for not being more understanding. Maybe if they just took a moment to talk to them out of their insanity instead of killing them.... Insanity is not an excuse. IMHO intelligent beings are responcible for their actions and the twinky deffence doesn't hold. I'm not saying that Telendel couldn't have gotten better if both he a Gala had servived but he would still be respocible for those deaths. I'm not sure how good a Herald he would have made at that point, though. If I was a random citizen (ie I don't know Telendel personally) I'd be uncomfortable asking a know murder for help even if he was recovered--there's no garentee on his staying sane. Just my two cents, Lady Dawna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:43:29 -0700 From: Sorana Shadowcat To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Tylendel's repudation Message-ID: <33E8F001.3DE1-+AT+-olypen.com> Heyla all! I think that 'Lendel being insane is a reason not an excuse for his trying to mass murder the Leshara. If he had been sane, he probably would have given the Heralds the eveidence in his mind to put down the Leshara, & not gone on a killing spree. He would probably still want to kill Wester & Evan & whoever else was in on it, but he would've been able to control himself. Lady Dawna, Falconsbane was evil before he went mad. So was Ancar. There was no way either of them could ever have been redeemed. Even if someone had wanted to try. 'Lendel OTOH was good before he went mad, & if someone had figured out what he was going on time, he could have been saved. That's my two cents. Muddled as it was. Zhai'helleva, Sorana Shadowcat Knight of Amber & Marigold, soon to be (I hope) Goddess of Unicorns *************************************************************************What is the dark; shadows around you, why not take heart in the new day? Ever and always. Always and ever. No one can promise a dream for you. Time gave both darkness and dreams to you. --Enya ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:58:24 -0400 From: "SJB" To: Subject: Re: Re:Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: <199708062347.TAA10487-+AT+-mailhost.capecod.net> Lady Dawna wrote: > There was no way that a few well choosen words could have brought > Telendel to his senses. There were people dieing and Telendel was > ENJOYING it!! Gala did what she had to to save the poor people being > killed. Moreover, we have no way of know if Telendel could have banished > the wyrsa. IMHO I don't think he could have or he wouldn't have let Gala > die. So even if Gala could have reversed his insanity instantly (fat > chance-it brewed for months) it wouldn't have done any good becuase > people would still be dieing!!! Have a loving "I forgive you" scene > while mass murder occures in the back-ground??? I don't think so. > Gala's first priority was stopping the wyrsa. First I must point out that at the time when Gala showed up the wyrsa had not killed anyone. Mass murder was not happening in the background. The wyrsa were getting ready to attack because Tylendel had given them the command to do so. The book stated that the wyrsa "regarded Tylendel with unwavering, saffron eyes; they seemed to be waiting for something"..."He quavered out a single word *snip* and they turned as one entity to face the cowering folk of Leshara *snip*" (pg 198 MPawn). Gala shows up immediately after this and challenges the wyrsa. At the same time Tylendel cries out in anguish "Gala don't". At that moment in time the wyrsa where paying attention to Gala and Gala takes the time to repudiate Tylendel when he was obviously in pain. At that critical moment what she could have said could have made all the difference in the world but she choose to repudiate him instead. If an attempt had been made to stop him and it didn't work then the wyrsa would have attacked her anyways and the events would have played out the same. I also think that when she arrived she also interrupted whatever control Tylendel had over the wyrsa. We will never know for sure if he knew how to stop them? IMO he could. The wyrsa were ultimately stopped by lightning when the rest of the Herald-Mages showed up and Tylendel was able to call lightning fairly well as exhibited by pg 196 "From Tylendel's upraised hands came twin bolts of the vermilion lightning *snip*". As far as Tylendel enjoying what he was doing. I find that extremely unlikely considering that Van was sharing everything with Tylendel and all he felt was pain, anger and suffering. > Is a person judged by their actions or not? If insanity is an excuse for > evil deeds than Falconsbane should have been forgiven and made a Herald!! *snip* > But at the time of Gala's suicide Telendel was evil (he was very, very > morally wrong and if being capable of premeditated mass murder at the > cost of your lifebonded's existance isn't bad then I have no idea what > is.) Yes Tylendel planned to use the gate and the wysra but did he neccessarily know what that would cost him? I don't think so. Was he even thinking beyond his brother's dying request of revenge? IMO Tylendel had no way of realizing what he was doing to Van. IMHO what Tylendel did was wrong and the act itself was evil but he was not evil. As for Falconsbane he was Ma'ar reincarnated many times over and I believe he was bad from the begining (intrinsically evil). After each recarnation he just lost his controls. > Like I said before, insanity is not an excuse! Falconsbane and Ancar > were both definately over the edge- are we going to start critizing > Elspeth and Co. for not being more understanding. Maybe if they just > took a moment to talk to them out of their insanity instead of killing > them.... Insanity is not an excuse. Insanity is a reason not an excuse. Insanity is a very gray area and there are no black and whites here. Falconsbane and Ancar IMO were intrinsically evil but Tylendel was not. Falconsbane and Ancar showed no remorse for their actions while Tylendel obviously did. Oh and for the record the only person (besides Gala) who died was Lord Evan and he was the one who had Staven killed. My continued $.02:-) Blessed Be...Jess *Councilor of Mist* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:57:25 -0400 (EDT) From: RTeclectic-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: <970806205615_-722301636-+AT+-emout16.mail.aol.com> Lady Dawna- I belive that they where pointing out that his insanity was the reson he did those things- and that made sane again he would be fine. Tylendale can't really be compared to Ancar and Ma'ar( all of him through Falconsbane) they where sane Tylendale was not, the two situations are very different. Tylendale wasn't a resoning human being at that point, ancar & Ma'ar where they did it out of pleasure thinking far ahead making plans years in advance- Tylendale took his revenge as soon has he could get it with minimal planing. And this whole revenge is evil bit is a bit- irraitional, unthought out?( way too many kids today, I can't rember the word I was going to use) It would still have been revenge if he had done it the way he was supposed to, it just would have been, calmer, not as exact not doing to them almost exactly what they did to him, more humane. It would still have been revenge so get over it. And Tylendale was, at the very least, raitional; a raitional (which says nothing about a persons sanity) would want to make someone who hurt them feel the same way they did, Gala should have been watching for that and talked him out of it. When someone really hurts you the raitional( and sane) first impulse is that you should make them feel the same way they made you feel. they don't question it in an everyday person, only a herald, and whatever else they may be heralds and companions are human, but conditioned to be more understanding to look deeper than most people- but thats kind of hard to do when your twin has just been murderd over something as stupid as that family feud they where having( I see this feud as nearly entirly the westares or whatever their name wases fault they where being stupid[More Lerath?]) so Tylendale didn't look deeper and gave him self over to doing the last thing his twin asked get revenge and I don't think he would have done it if Staven hadn't asked. ANd Gala mabye was hurting him instead of helping him out of revenge. ( Watermelon sheep to all( not watermelon flavored shepp watermelon sheep)) AFN RT ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:36:04 PDT From: "Lasara shena Tale'sedrin" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Spoiler: Fire Bird and Storm Breaking.. Message-ID: <199708070236.TAA23886-+AT+-f47.hotmail.com> Heyla! Does anyone know when (or if it already has) Storm Breaking will come out in paperback? I am very much looking forward to reading it without putting a dent in my already much depleted wallet. Also, do any of you know if ML plans to write any more on the Heralds of Valdemar series? They are my favorites (sorry SERRAted edge and Diana Tregarde lovers!), and I would much appreciate any information on them.. By the way, has anyone read Firebird? I would be interested in hearing about, for I myself have not read it and am unable to locate it anywhere except for in the Firebird Arts & Musice catalog.. hmm... Oh, yes, btw, mint chocolate sheep to all!! Lasara shena Tale'sedrin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:07:18 PDT From: "Nightdancer P." To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Tylendel and goddesses Message-ID: <199708070307.UAA29138-+AT+-f33.hotmail.com> Apologize in advance, Sorry for the short post. The wrysa did kill someone before they were destroyed. If I remember right, someone bolted, and a wrysa killed him, and then started for the main crowd. Does anyone know the address of the person we are suppose to ask for godhoods. Thanks Chocolate-covered cherry shaped sheep Sheep flavored sheep to the bondbirds(and anyone who wants them) :want to fly circles, find mate: Sulena and Zamy Nightdancer Mindmate to Sulena, and Zamy Breeder of Bondbirds Current Mayor of Kendermore ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:37:31 -0600 From: whitepossum-+AT+-juno.com (Nicholas M Batura) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Cc: whitepossum-+AT+-juno.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Please read this all. Message-ID: <19970806.213732.5006.0.WHITEPOSSUM-+AT+-juno.com> I'M NOT SURE HOW TO SEND THIS TO EVERYONE BUT I'M TRYING, IF ANYONE GETS THIS PLEASE READ THIS, THANKS. On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:14:12 +0100 (BST) "Lasara shena Tale'sedrin" writes: > >>>IMPORTANT: Everyone, I am very sorry that I had too send you this. > >No >>>actually I am not. I should be sending this to everyone who has aol > >but >>>instead I just sent it to my friends. Anyone who does not send this > >to >>>someone, or anyone who has a problem with me sending this can >forget >>>going to heaven, if you know what I mean. It will take you around 5 >>>minutes of your VERY busy schedule to send >>>this to a couple people. Wait a sec. If you're on aol you're >probably >>>on to >>>talk. Well I hate to brake it to you but if that's the case then >you >do >>>not >>>have a busy schedule and you do have time to do something for >someone >>>else. >>> Now I don't want to seem like I'm wishing for this to happen >because >I >>>am >>>deffanitly not but what if you were dying from a disease that could >maybe >>>have a cure soon but with the help of money. Would you expect your >>>friends >>>to forgert about you and not worry about saving your life? I don't >think >>>you >>>would expect that if they're your friends. You know that friends, >true >>>friends, are there for you ALWAYS. As far as I'm concerned, every >person >>>is >>>a friend until they do something to you. Therefore unless this kid >who >>>is >>>trying to raise money has done something bad to you, I see no reason > >why >>>you >>>can't help. Sending this to a few friends does not cost you >anything >but >>>not >>>sending it to anyone may cost an innocent child's life. >>> >>>Hello. My name is David Lawitts and I have severe lung and throat >cancer >>>due >>>to second hand smoke. This chain was a final attempt to help solve >my >>>problem. For every one person that this letter is sent to, the >national >>>lung >>>and cancer association will donate 3 cents to help me and other >people >>>like >>>me become healthy again. If you do not pass this letter on, my life >and >>>memory will soon both be gone. So please, try to send this to at >least >10 >>>people. It is for a good cause. (By the way, be sure one of the >people >>>you >>>send it to is "CWOVES-+AT+-GEOCITIES.COM" as he keeps track of the names >that >>>have >>>passed this along.) I give my blessing to those who pass this along. > >To >>>those >>>too selfish to take 2 minutes to do this, what goes around comes >around. >>>Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------- End forwarded message ---------- >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:39:53 -0700 From: "R. Barron" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ke'chara/ashke Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970806203952.007ce7e0-+AT+-pop.sonic.net> Hey Everybody! I know this has been talked about to death, so I help nobody minds my comment. I always thought that ke'chara meant beloved as you would call a best friend, or a child. To me ashke always meant beloved as you would call a lover. After reading the recent discussions I'm not sure. Did anyone else get this from the books? Wind to thy wings Vanessa Rachelle Barron rbarron-+AT+-sonic.net http://www.sonic.net/~rbarron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:58:29 -0700 From: "Daniel O'Neal" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fwd: Please read this all. Message-ID: <33E96405.52E3-+AT+-wvnvm.wvnet.edu> > Sending this to a few friends does not cost you anything but not > sending it to anyone may cost an innocent child's life. Hello. My > name is David Lawitts and I have severe lung and throat cancer due > to second hand smoke. This chain was a final attempt to help solve > my problem. THIS IS A SCAM. Do not reply to his post, do not send anyone any money. If you are concerned about this issue, make a donation to the American Heart Assoc. (or whatever charity exists in your country). Ob Misty This is no different than that old woman making fake boils to make Stefen look more pitiable. Do not succumb to this fraud. And please, never ever post any sort of chain letter to this list! Thanks! Sheep of your choice to all for wasting your time. Tanager ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 10:15:17 -0700 From: Mark Severson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fwd: Please read this all. Message-ID: <33EA02A5.F9A-+AT+-eonet.com> Greetings from the tax zombie, (If you've heard anything about what our "wonderful" congress has "blessed" us with you will understand if I go running down the street screaming!) On to what this post is about - For the record I attempted to post to the address listed in the "Please read this all" to read the moron who came up with the chain letter the riot act - per my mail service that address is suffering a "permanent FATAL error" i.e. it's toast folks. So anyone who still thinks they are "doing a good thing" I suggest you remember what the road to a very warm place is paved with and that the PRTA dies the death it deserves. To those who may be offended my apoligizes but when someone pulls this kind of stunt I have no fuse. Take care, God Bless, Peace to all. Mark Severson markttz-+AT+-eonet.com Mark Severson markttz-+AT+-eonet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:48:35 PDT From: "Jasmine Silverday" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Spoiler: Fire Bird and Storm Breaking.. Message-ID: <199708070548.WAA22130-+AT+-f9.hotmail.com> Lasara shena Tale'sedrin wrote: >Heyla! >Does anyone know when (or if it already has) Storm Breaking will >come out in paperback? I am very much looking forward to reading it >without putting a dent in my already much depleted wallet. >Also, do any of you know if ML plans to write any more on the Heralds >of Valdemar series? I have already pleaded with my local Waldens store to tell me and they said it should be in paperback in October!!!(does a happy dance) I have been waiting VERRRY, VERRRY LOOONG for SB to be released in PB!!(looks down at her very thin wallet). Anyways... There is another Velgrath book coming out soon... was it October???... Called Owlflight. I can't remember who has it on their homepage but when I read the review I flipped and wanted to buy it immediatly! Chocolate-mint sheep to all! Silverday ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1293 **********************************