MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1294 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Fwd: Please read this all. by Kenneth Allen Hyde 2) Re: goddesses by Kenneth Allen Hyde 3) Re: Fwd: Please read this all. by "LWhitman" 4) RE: Fwd: Please read this all. by "Roesle, Kathy" 5) Tylendel's repudiation by Norman Cronin 6) Re: Tylendel's repudiation by Kenneth Allen Hyde 7) Re: Tylendel's repudiation by "LWhitman" 8) Van as an accomplice? by Eleonora Scoseria 9) Re: Ke'chara/ashke by larsen 10) Re: goddesses by Sorana Shadowcat 11) Re: 'Lendel's insanity by Jennifer Wrenn 12) Companions - Question by Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com (Tracy L Danberry) 13) Re: Tylendel's repudiation by Mark Severson 14) Re: Tylendel's repudiation by "Paul, The Emporer" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:14:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fwd: Please read this all. Message-ID: To the entire list, PLEASE, do not continue to send the recent chainletter to the Mercedes-Lackey mailing list. This is not an acceptable action and is specifically mentioned in the list FAQ as a strong "no-no." Chain letters are a waste of bandwidth which puts an unnecessary strain on Vanyel (the listserver) as well as burdening other list members with charges for downloading a large and pointless file. Have the common courtesy to follow the guidelines for this list and JUST SAY NO to chain letters. This is a public message to the list at large, further transgressions of the "no chainletters" rule will be dealt with by the appropriate Councilmembers in private. Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is getting out of hand, since we have the same chainletter twice (three times?) in one week. STOP THE INSANITY!!!!! (doing my best Susan Powter impression, then noticing the # of exclamations and realizing it is too late). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Councilor of Mist (who now knows why Auntie Mel's hair was going white *grin*) Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.udel.edu/kenny/prof/ken.html or .../kenny/pers/green.silences.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:36:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: goddesses Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Nightdancer P. wrote: > Does anyone know the address of the person we are suppose to ask for > godhoods. Okay, the address would be , but I can't really promise anything. I am teaching 6 hours a day and doing research, so it may be a while before I do another posting about the Pantheon of Modern Deities. I do have several standing requests and will add any others to the list, but cannot make any guarantees about when the Namings will take place. Sorry. ObMisty: on the subject of Tylendel, I have to say that I don't think that his "insanity" excuses his behavior or makes it less evil. Tylendel was suffering and decided to kill and hurt others far in excess of any pain they had caused (particularly since almost all of his targets were probably innocent). That is evil. His insanity may have led him to those acts, but what he did was evil, and being insane just doesn't make him innocent or free from responsibility. (In case you are wondering, I don't agree with the US Justice system's "innocent by reason of insanity" defence). I think that Gala did the right thing. Tylendel, whatever he may have been before his fall, was not a Herald when she repudiated him and did not deserve to be. Again, maybe if they had both survived and Tylendel had been healed and rehabilitated, she could have "reChosen" him; we'll never know. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.udel.edu/kenny/prof/ken.html or .../kenny/pers/green.silences.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 09:46:11 -0800 From: "LWhitman" To: Subject: Re: Fwd: Please read this all. Message-ID: <9708078709.AA870972638-+AT+-ccmailhost.nwcomputing.com> All right, that's about enough of this!!! In the last year or so, I have gotten a few different copies of letters similiar to this one. The last one was a hoax, as I believe that this one is (I have a letter in to the Nat. Cancer Assoc.). Generally, they would not give $.03 via an e-mailing campaign. This is just a chain letter and nothing more and does not belong on this list. No ob. Misty on this one...sorry. Starfire I'M NOT SURE HOW TO SEND THIS TO EVERYONE BUT I'M TRYING, IF ANYONE GETS THIS PLEASE READ THIS, THANKS. On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:14:12 +0100 (BST) "Lasara shena Tale'sedrin" writes: > >>>IMPORTANT: Everyone, I am very sorry that I had too send you this. --SNIP-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:53:40 -0600 From: "Roesle, Kathy" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Fwd: Please read this all. Message-ID: Consider the message passed - and I hope to never see this again (this being the 2nd time it's been around) -----Original Message----- From: whitepossum-+AT+-juno.com [SMTP:whitepossum-+AT+-juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 9:48 PM To: Roesle, Kathy Subject: Re: Fwd: Please read this all. I'M NOT SURE HOW TO SEND THIS TO EVERYONE BUT I'M TRYING, IF ANYONE GETS THIS PLEASE READ THIS, THANKS. On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:14:12 +0100 (BST) "Lasara shena Tale'sedrin" writes: > >>>IMPORTANT: Everyone, I am very sorry that I had too send you this. > >No >>>actually I am not. I should be sending this to everyone who has aol > >but >>>instead I just sent it to my friends. Anyone who does not send this > >to >>>someone, or anyone who has a problem with me sending this can >forget >>>going to heaven, if you know what I mean. It will take you around 5 >>>minutes of your VERY busy schedule to send >>>this to a couple people. Wait a sec. If you're on aol you're >probably >>>on to >>>talk. Well I hate to brake it to you but if that's the case then >you >do >>>not >>>have a busy schedule and you do have time to do something for >someone >>>else. >>> Now I don't want to seem like I'm wishing for this to happen >because >I >>>am >>>deffanitly not but what if you were dying from a disease that could >maybe >>>have a cure soon but with the help of money. Would you expect your >>>friends >>>to forgert about you and not worry about saving your life? I don't >think >>>you >>>would expect that if they're your friends. You know that friends, >true >>>friends, are there for you ALWAYS. As far as I'm concerned, every >person >>>is >>>a friend until they do something to you. Therefore unless this kid >who >>>is >>>trying to raise money has done something bad to you, I see no reason > >why >>>you >>>can't help. Sending this to a few friends does not cost you >anything >but >>>not >>>sending it to anyone may cost an innocent child's life. >>> >>>Hello. My name is David Lawitts and I have severe lung and throat >cancer >>>due >>>to second hand smoke. This chain was a final attempt to help solve >my >>>problem. For every one person that this letter is sent to, the >national >>>lung >>>and cancer association will donate 3 cents to help me and other >people >>>like >>>me become healthy again. If you do not pass this letter on, my life >and >>>memory will soon both be gone. So please, try to send this to at >least >10 >>>people. It is for a good cause. (By the way, be sure one of the >people >>>you >>>send it to is "CWOVES-+AT+-GEOCITIES.COM" as he keeps track of the names >that >>>have >>>passed this along.) I give my blessing to those who pass this along. > >To >>>those >>>too selfish to take 2 minutes to do this, what goes around comes >around. >>>Thank you. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------- End forwarded message ---------- >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 15:21:09 -0700 From: Norman Cronin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: <33EA4A55.39B7-+AT+-gremlan.org> I've been lurking for quite some time and have really been enjoying this topic. If Tylendel was evil when he plotted to kill the Leshara, (and he actually only killed Lord Evan who was evil) then wouldn't Vanyel have been evil when he too was out of his mind when he killed the bandits and the innocent healer when he was captured and abused in MPrice? Shouldn't Yfandes have repudiated him then? What is the difference in plotting to kill innocents when you were not quite sane and actually killing one when not quite sane? Any answer anyone can give would be appreciated. SAC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:54:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Norman Cronin wrote: > If Tylendel was evil when he plotted to kill the Leshara, (and he > actually only killed Lord Evan who was evil) then wouldn't Vanyel have > been evil when he too was out of his mind when he killed the bandits and > the innocent healer when he was captured and abused in MPrice? Hmmmm. Good point. Although, I think there are some major differences. > What is the difference in plotting to kill innocents when you were not > quite sane and actually killing one when not quite sane? Well, the differences in Tylendel's and Van's sitches is significant. First, Van's response to his multiple rape and extreme abuse was not premeditated in the same way that Tylendel was. Van was responding to direct personal attacks that had kept him in a state of extreme pain and disorientation for an extended period. I would say that he was truly out of his mind, in the sense of completely devoid of rational thought, at that point. Tylendel, on the other hand, was totally rational throughout the period of plotting and scheming, as well as during the actual attack. Mind you, I agree that his rationality was a little skewed, and was decidedly out of touch with any morality, but he was rational. In a sense, I guess this is the difference between "insane" (Tylendel) and berserker (Van). Van's response was an atavistic, almost animal, response to a violent and debilitating direct attack. Tylendel's behavior was a scheme for revenge. I don't know if that is an explanation though. I suspect that better explanation is that, if Yfandes had repudiated Van, the story would have been over. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.udel.edu/kenny/prof/ken.html or .../kenny/pers/green.silences.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 15:31:15 -0800 From: "LWhitman" To: Subject: Re: Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: <9708078709.AA870993344-+AT+-ccmailhost.nwcomputing.com> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Norman Cronin wrote: > If Tylendel was evil when he plotted to kill the Leshara, (and he > actually only killed Lord Evan who was evil) then wouldn't Vanyel have > been evil when he too was out of his mind when he killed the bandits and > the innocent healer when he was captured and abused in MPrice? Hmmmm. Good point. Although, I think there are some major differences. > What is the difference in plotting to kill innocents when you were not > quite sane and actually killing one when not quite sane? -snip- In a sense, I guess this is the difference between "insane" (Tylendel) and berserker (Van). Van's response was an atavistic, almost animal, response to a violent and debilitating direct attack. Tylendel's behavior was a scheme for revenge. I don't know if that is an explanation though. I suspect that better explanation is that, if Yfandes had repudiated Van, the story would have been over. -snip- There's one other major difference, Yfandes knew what was about to happen and that Van was the _only_ one who could stop it. Yes, the mass murder/destruction was evil, and inexcuseable, but had Yfandes repudiated him, then the armies would have run over and devoured Valdemar, or at least caused a great deal of death and destruction. In this case, the rehabilitation was much more important to the welfare of the country. ..oh yeah, and Van had many years of serving as a Herald. Tylendel was still a Herald-trainee. Starfire Starfire ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:30:03 -0300 From: Eleonora Scoseria To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Van as an accomplice? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970807203003.006e5df8-+AT+-nicasio.distrinet.com.uy> >On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Norman Cronin wrote: > >> If Tylendel was evil when he plotted to kill the Leshara, (and he >> actually only killed Lord Evan who was evil) then wouldn't Vanyel have >> been evil when he too was out of his mind when he killed the bandits and >> the innocent healer when he was captured and abused in MPrice? I have another question about that. Isn't Van actually acting as Tylendel's accomplice in the whole thing? I mean, he knew 'lendel planned revenge and still he got him the forbidden books *and* lent him his strength, without which lendel could not have got there to carry out his vengeance in the first place. Plus, while lendel had the admittedly feeble excuse of being besides himself with pain, Van had no such excuse. True, his beloved was suffering, but Van should have known enough about justice in Valdemar to know he could go to the heralds and demand their justice. In any case, those are just my $0.02 Peace, Ele Councilor of Mist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:21:19 -0700 From: larsen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ke'chara/ashke Message-ID: <33EA90AF.545D-+AT+-voyager.net> R. Barron wrote: > > Hey Everybody! I know this has been talked about to death, so I help nobody > minds my comment. I always thought that ke'chara meant beloved as you would > call a best friend, or a child. To me ashke always meant beloved as you > would call a lover. After reading the recent discussions I'm not sure. Did > anyone else get this from the books? > Wind to thy wings Vanessa > Rachelle Barron > rbarron-+AT+-sonic.net > http://www.sonic.net/~rbarron I got the same idea, aske is for a lover, ke'chara is for a friend, like in the Gryphon series with the little deformed gryphon named by the silent mage. And of course by tylendal to vanyle. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:09:08 -0700 From: Sorana Shadowcat To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: goddesses Message-ID: <33EA63A4.27F7-+AT+-olypen.com> Heyla all! Cennydd wrote: > ObMisty: on the subject of Tylendel, I have to say that I don't think that > his "insanity" excuses his behavior or makes it less evil. Please excuse me, but when has any of us said that "insanity" was an excuse, or that what he did was less evil? In all of the posts I've read it seemed like pretty much everyone thought that while what he did was evil, 'Lendel himself was not. And that insanity was not an excuse for what he did only a reason. Infact, I remember pointing out earlier that if Tylendel _hadn't_ gone insane, he probably _would_ have asked the Heralds for justice. Zhai'helleva, Sorana Shadowcat Knight of Amber and Marigold, soon to be (I hope) Goddess of Unicorns P.S. If that first part sounded like a flame, sorry. That wasn't intended. Sorana *************************************************************************What is the dark; shadows around you, why not take heart in the new day? Ever and always. Always and ever. No one can promise a dream for you. Time gave both darkness and dreams to you. --Enya ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:58:41 -0400 From: Jennifer Wrenn To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: 'Lendel's insanity Message-ID: <33EA8B61.1A66C774-+AT+-atlonline.com> Okay, here's my take on this particular subject (I just -know- you're all dying to hear it, right? ) I think one of the reasons that Gala repudiated 'Lendel (and it seems a valid enough reason to me) was that he really -wasn't- a Herald. Heralds are nearly always impartial judges, and they rarely make their judgements in favor of revenge. Recall, if you will, Savil's repeated attempts to get rid of 'Lendel's bias against the feuding family (I can't recall the name 'n no books, sorry...). When 'Lendel plotted after Evan (is that his name?), he completely threw everything she'd told him about impartiality to the five winds. He called forth the wyrsa (who -are- nasty, evil things, I think) against innocents, who would have been rather brutally killed if not for Gala. To be absolutely honest, I -don't- think 'Lendel was insane, until that moment when Gala repudiated him. He -knew- that what he was going was wrong, otherwise he would not have tried so hard to hide everything. (Admittedly, he also did that so Savil wouldn't stop him...but, then, she probably knows better what a Herald's duty is than he.) He may have had one humongous obsession, and it may have been driven by some warped channel in his brain from the energies/emotions of his brother's death, but I don't think it was. I think 'Lendel was so wrapped up in his twin (and who can blame him, when they have a link like they had... But it should've been broken, methinks.) that he forgot completely about being a Herald (he even blocked out his -Companion-). And when he forgot that, he ceased to be one, though Gala didn't truly know 'til he attacked. Van, on the other hand, was suffering from tremendous, -immediate- pain. 'Lendel's emotional pain, while extremely strong, had time to 'mellow', so to speak, to think things through and realize that revenge wasn't the answer. Van's reaction was completely instinctive, and he was incredibly dismayed when he realized what he'd done (if I remember correctly, anyways...). He never had time to think, the pain was so strong that he just reacted. I will concede that 'Lendel -might- have been in a similar state, but I doubt it, because he lived for what, a week or more, without acting. Anyways, that's just my opinions, feel free to criticize or praise at will (though praises are far more palatable, of course ). Stars light your paths, NightSong p.s. Has anyone noticed that Misty used 'Stars light your path' in Elvenblood? I was just reading it yesterday, an one of the elven girls said it. Spiffy, huh? =) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:42:39 -0400 From: Tracy_L_Danberry-+AT+-rohmhaas.com (Tracy L Danberry) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Companions - Question Message-ID: <000D6FBE.1306-+AT+-rohmhaas.com> Heyla Listsibs. I just had an idea. If it's been discussed and discarded before, just let me know. Y'know how you can apply for a bondbird? Well, why can't we also apply for a Companion? I know that they're supposed to choose you, but this is a virtual vs. fictional, so we can maybe bend the rules. What say thee, O Councillors of Myst???? O Fellow Listsibs????? I would volunteer to keep the records (plus, I'd like me very own companion too {smile, plead, plead}). Well, post to the list, or me privately, with your thoughts on this matter - and thanks for all your time!! Cotton-candy flavored sheep to all (it's carnival time) Hopeful Trae ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:45:37 -0700 From: Mark Severson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: <33EB5B41.31FE-+AT+-eonet.com> Greetings all, Thought I might as well throw my two cents worth in. Yes what Lendel did and attempted to do was EVIL. As for him never being a herald to began with I can't buy that - ALL of the heralds have some kind of flaw, some bigger then others. Remember the herald who whipped "Ghost" and almost caused his own companion to collapse and then gave Vanyel hell? The heralds are all people and no one is perfect. IMHO one of the requirements for a person to be choosen is a good heart - i.e. a person who cares about others and attempts to help and protect them. Think about them - remember the "royal brat" - she had no chance of being choosen, till - with Talia's help she changed and started to treat people right. There are other examples of less then stellar behavior by heralds sprinkled in the books. Granted none any where near as bad as Lendel's act but they are not cookie cutter cutouts. Yes he was repudiated. However - the Death Bell DID toll for him when he suicided. As the bell only rings for the death of a herald it strikes me that he was "redeemed." That plus the fact that he was reincarnated as Stefen so that he could both complete his lifes work and be Van's human companion/friend, etc. make me feel that he was forgiven. He had already been punished. Can you think of a more horrible punishment then to have a companion, a part of your soul (to me) say "I don't know you" and then die before your eyes? I can't. All done. Thanks for your time. Mark Severson markttz-+AT+-eonet.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:42:58 -0500 From: "Paul, The Emporer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tylendel's repudiation Message-ID: <33EADC10.4BABB56F-+AT+-cbcast.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C1B72FEADCDBFBF218857D88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *lurker mode off* da- da- da- da- ok..about this lendel and choosing thing........i dont think that companions really choose those that are good.....i think they choose those that they NEED. imho, they needed ty....he helped van acheive his full potential....they should've probly taqken another route....but they didnt......now with the trouble valdemar was having...van in alkl his glory was a necesity...so they used ty...to get van...imho... ok soory...just putting my cents in..and i nly have one of them..not two like everyone else :) paul, the emporer mage of noise --------------C1B72FEADCDBFBF218857D88 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Paul, The Emporer Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Paul, The Emporer n: ;Paul, The Emporer adr: apkolyps-+AT+-cbcast.com;;;morris;IL;60450;usa email;internet: apkolyps-+AT+-cbcast.com title: master and mage of noise!!!!! note: icq uin=2121102 homepage http://www.cbcast.com/apkolyps/index.htm knowledge at any price is knowledge died for x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------C1B72FEADCDBFBF218857D88-- ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 1294 **********************************